Guild Wars 2

Viking Jorun.5413:

Healing signet alone is fine. As a thief, I apply poison and use my sustained damage to get them low, and I don’t even use stealth. If they gain regeneration, boon strip it. Since you’re using dagger offhand rather than pistol use blind on stealth. Blinds mess warriors up big time, especially hammer ones. Banner regen warriors are simply a matter of poison/ a few bleeds followed by sustained bursts. You use sword, so those really shouldn’t be an issue. I only have 2850 attack on my thief with 500 healing power, 2400 armor, and 17k health, so being bursty isn’t really the answer to killing warriors using healing signet.

Yeah, I’ll go on my mes now and apply perma poison.

Mesmers have 435323241 get out of jail free cards. It’s easier said then done. If they’re not making clones with their backflips, they’re stunbreaking your abilities only to make another clone. Oh and they also have access to invis, making them even more ridiculous to deal with in a 1v1 situation.

I’ve already stated how you can counter clones, and if you can’t get used to being stunbroken, then you really just need to learn that that’s how you counter your CC’s. And mesmer’s invisibility is extremely, extremely limited (two utilities, one of which is only rarely used, one weapon skill on a hardly used weapon, and one elite), and that doesn’t account for the fact that the stealths are fairly short anyways.

No, but when you have near perma-stealth you can use hit and run tactics until your opponent has either given up, or is a corpse beneath your feet. And lets not forget dat blind spam.

All I really need to say is that “perma stealth” is getting nerfed again this patch, and “blind spam” only happens when you stand inside a Black Powder field…

health isn’t as great as you make it out to be, Vitality is a poor stat for a warrior which is why going Knights is far better then Soldiers. If you are not able to passively regen the damage faster then you’re being dealt it, you’re going to die. Whether you have 15khp or 20k hp. It only delays the inevitable. Other classes like thieves can make much better use of it as it gives them some more room for error. And they also have the most easily telegraphed bursts of any class. If you’re getting hit with any of the high damage burst skills of a warrior on a consistent basis, you’re bad. Period. Especially Kill shot, Earthshaker, or Evicerate.

Actually, at base levels, my calculations show that 1 point of vitality is still worth 1.158 points of toughness in terms of direct damage reduction. Furthermore, I found that Soldier’s armor actually deals 102.7% of the damage dealt by Knight’s, and it reduces direct damage by 107.0% of the amount that Knight’s armor reduces damage. Learn to do math.

And, again, telegraphed attacks mean nothing when there are so many of them…

Kagamiku.9731:

Unless a warrior is going full Soliders or at least Knights, you don’t even need to be zerker in order to bring them down. Condition builds can bring a warrior down just as well as a burst builds. The former can be built pretty tanky and still effective. It’s so easy to kite a warrior with conditions. Another reason why mesmers dominate them in a 1v1 scenario. Necro’s are capable of doing the same given the player is skilled. As for your second point, you said it yourself “Warriors don’t have nearly as much damage reduction granted by being a bunker” Guardians, Engis, even Necros can bunker down way better then a warrior, and still have the dmg output to kill you. If a warrior tries to be too tanky, he’s only hurting himself. And even then, once hsi passive regen fails him, he’s a sitting duck.

As I’ve explained before, no, you don’t need to be running zerker, but the warrior still has a high probability of healing for more than you can damage, or healing for so much that he or she will kill you first anyways. Also, bunker guards and engis do virtually no damage, and necros do only very slightly more.

A thief backstabs you with Basilisk Venom traited and by the time you can react you’re already knocking on deaths door. Even if you try and stay and fight you’re fighting a losing battle. Whirling blade is a kittenty move and does kitten for damage, and even then he can just back up and wait for it to end. Or just finish you off with ranged.

First, virtually nobody traits Basilisk Venom unless he or she is using a very odd build or is running a venom build, which you shouldn’t be bursted by anyways. Even so, it’s our only stun and happens to be fairly short relative to many warrior stuns, and the animation/cast for BV happens to be extremely noticeable. After the animation occurs, you already have far more time to react than if you were reacting to, say Earthshaker or Skull Crack. Either way, Endure Pain instantly negates Basi Venom and will probably give you enough time to kill the thief.

Whirling Blades is an AoE skill on a short (10 seconds) CD that also provides some really great mobility, and it hits for about a third of the damage that Backstab does. It’s also extremely difficult to evade. No clue what your big QQ is about the subject.

Rifle beats thief’s Shortbow range any day of the week, especially with Volley. You can always just use mobility skills to reach the thief quickly, anyways.

I’ll take having one extra clone with me at all times to confuse the opponent over 7%health reduction any day of the week. Mesmers can have three up at all times. Extra
A bunker Engi can have almost perma-Protection uptime, just saying. And every other class at least has access to Protection. I’d rather have 33%dmg reduction w/e I desperatly needed it, then a 7%dmg reduction at all times.

Are you kidding? Nobody in the mesmer community thinks that clones are a legitimate distraction, which I learned the hard way. For example, the linked quote from Pyroatheist, who happens to be one of the mesmer community’s leading players, suggests everything to the contrary of what you are saying. While I somewhat agree with some of the points I made in the original post there, I would almost wholeheartedly agree with Pyro today after having played a role in the sPvP eSports community for many months.

Furthermore, Engis don’t have that much protection; in fact, from what I saw, it only has four sources of protection (excluding combo finishers, etc): Elixir H, Elixir H’s toolbelt skill, and two traits- one that grants a little protection when an enemy crits them (with a 20 second CD), and one that- and it’s ironic that you criticize them about this- gives them protection when they are CC’d.

Thief doesn’t have access to protection, mesmer has extremely limited and somewhat questionable ways to access protection, engi doesn’t have nearly as much prot as you stated, necro can only access prot through a single utility (w/ 60s CD) and a very rarely used trait, the only realistic way for rangers to have prot is with Stone Spirit. Guard actually has some fairly limited prot (two shouts and a little bit more if they use hammer or shield), and eles have a decent amount of prot but in exchange for light armor and all of the issues they currently suffer. Stop playing the victim.

Another average heal, or nerfing HS to make it an average heal so that warr isn’t healing more than every other class in the game by a long shot.

If you think that hotjoin player imbalance is bad, go play Arena.

Soldier’s gear isn’t getting nerfed. Furthermore, I find it extremely difficult to see how moving getting 50% extra crit chance to foes that were already CC’d to Master tier is some kind of super undeserving nerf. And the bow and hammer build is not getting a 40% nerf, in case you never understood mathematics. It’s getting a ~20% nerf to two hammer skills (that deal fair amounts of CC already), and the amount of additional burning (the most powerful pure condi in the game) that the LB is getting on the one skill that was nerfed for it is more than enough to cover for the damage lost. Even if both LB and Hammer were getting 20% damage nerfs to all skills, it would still count as a 20% damage decrease to the build (assuming you use both weapons the same amount)- the average of 20% and 20% is 20%, for future reference.

And hey, I wasn’t the one that brought up Hambow, you were. I’m just talking about the signet and you keep trying to change the subject. Warr can certainly 1v1 though.

What? First of all, I never wanted to play bunker, I just brought it up as an example of a build that would die if you got things your way. Second, I say that warriors are OP because not only is it extremely difficult to kill them, but they deal lots of damage, unlike bunkers.

Wait, I thought that all attacks missed you while in stealth already, or not? Isn’t that why stealth is better than clones, protection, and heavy armor? Isn’t that why stealth makes you invincible?

The problem isn’t being able to deal 400 DPS; I could deal 500 DPS and it would only count as 100 DPS, which, with your health, might take me at least 195 seconds (assuming last hit takes place before healing) to kill you, to use an extreme example. On the other hand, if my thief only has 15000 health (base health for warrior is 5000 above thief’s), and I can only heal for 300 HPS while you deal 400 DPS, you’ll still kill me. If you hit for 500 DPS (which is more realistic, at least, according to you), then you’ll just kill me even faster.

Also, your suggestion would mean that everybody would have to run high-damage builds, and that nobody could run support or bunker. And either way, even if everybody ran high DPS, that in no way guarantees that you’ll kill a warrior; it’s not as if the heal is completely negated, as you seem to think.

EDIT: also, physical examples are biased by the stand point of the observer, particularly when using a sample size of only one. That’s the whole basis behind using theorycrafting.

Kagamiku.9731:

Just because you have difficulty killing one Arganthium, that doesn’t make the class an unkillable monster.

It’s called a hyperbole, but it does have some truth in it.

The game shouldn’t be balanced around average or worse players. Every class in the game has the damage output capable of neutering a warriors passive healing.

Do you know how you kill a bunker guard? By taking it down with tons of DPS. That requires a zerker amulet. The tradeoff is that you do a lot more damage to something that you would otherwise do virtually no damage to, and in return you take more damage (although not so much since a bunker guard, by definition, doesn’t do much damage anyways). Warriors have gotten fairly close to bunker guards (of course, not the same, but both have high healing and high defense), but they don’t have nearly the amount of a damage reduction granted by being an actual bunker.

I’ve seen a mesmer and thief melt my HP down to almost nothing in the blink of an eye, and the only thing that kept me alive was endure pain. Of course, because I have healing signet on my heal bar and no other skill, I have no way to reliably heal all of the lost HP.

Maybe if you had hit them, or not ran away (as most players seem to think is the best option, for whatever idiotic reason), you would’ve noticed that using, say, Whirling Blades once would have killed them. It’s not like you can’t deal damage to them.

And heavy armor is not nearly as important as having protection

It’s an automatic +7% damage reduction, on top of a much higher base health level that warriors get anyways. Meanwhile, protection is a very short-lasting boon that can easily be replaced by using condis like Weakness (25% reduction of damage in the long run w/ the slower endurance regen).

, or clones,

Target the mesmer? Honestly, people; there’s a reason why I have Call Target hotkeyed to my F button and Take Target hotkeyed to G. Nobody in the mesmer community believes that clones are any more than very slightly useful for defense against unweary opponents, and many others outside of that community (myself included) believe the same thing.

or stealth.

You can’t damage anybody in stealth (you can w/ heavy armor, clones, or protection), and it’s not like you can’t get hit (especially by AoE). Stealth also often lasts very short periods of time, and is getting nerfed again this patch. Congrats.

That’s a far better damage mitigater then heavy armor will ever be. Avoiding the damage is hundreds of times better then face tanking it. In-fact, the only way a healing signet warrior will be able to beat a skilled player is by mitigating a lot of their damage by dodging the burst skills.

Again- you have an automatic 7% damage reduction as well as about 5000 more health than many other professions just by playing a warrior. And let’s not even talk about warriors having to avoid their opponents from bursting them when warriors have burst skills with the highest coefficients or CC durations in the game.

Warriors are still not the most dominant class in Spvp and that speaks words about the class as a whole.

Then what prof is? Either way, that doesn’t mean that warr isn’t OP. Not many people play Teldo’s build, but it’s obviously very good.

Is it UP? No, but it is easily countered by any profession with good knowledge of both their class and the warrior class.

My theorycrafting studies of the game have extended my knowledge about the professions far better than pathetikittentle opinion arguments, like those used by the vast majority of warriors defending this signet. I can also tell you that, from my knowledge granted by those studies, the warrior is far, far better off than any other profession is.

The warrior class is the easiest class to counter, because all it is is avoiding a multitude of well telegraphed attacks.

The key word being multitude; it’s easy enough avoiding one high-damage, telegraphed attack, but avoiding one every few seconds is an entirely different matter.

It’s the easiest class to learn, but it’s far from the best class overall. It only appears that way to average or below players, because they can’t pass the skill gap required to deal with warriors effortlessly.

Funny you say that, because I’m pretty sure that the vast, vast majority of the top-league sPvP community would disagree with you on that point.

It’ll be better when ANet suddenly remembers all of its promises that it made to thieves, and stops trying to overkill already dead builds.

Harper.4173:

Arganthium.5638:

mini.6018:

Rascalking.9845:

A classes success should not be dependent on the use of a single skill.

Agree .But the problem is warrior class is completely broken without it

We’re not saying that HS should be removed, just that it should be lowered. If there is no middle ground between being OP and being broken, then the issue should be on how to improve the warrior overall.

You can’t. Because it’s a class that has no gimmick mechanic like clones and stealth.
Because it’s a class that is very beginner friendly and thus easy to play. Ergo played a lot – ergo it will kill bads a lot. Those bads will spam the forums and you’ll get nerfs such as the longbow and hammer nerfs.

Warriors will always be subject to their negative popularity. Sadly you can’t fix them – when they come even close to competitive people will spam the forums again with " NERF OMG".
Look at this thread – a nerf has already been announced and it hasn’t even arrived and people are STILL crying for more nerfs. Because they can’t up their game they just want to get a free win over warriors by requesting nerfs.

I can tell you that I, like many others, were fully in support of buffing the warrior when it was unplayable in sPvP. We backed top players like Qt Hman who played warrior. What we didn’t expect was for the warrior to become an unkillable monster with both heavy armor and ~400 health per second healing. So don’t QQ about something that is completely false; many players actually want to see some degree of balance, and to act like we just wanted to put warriors purposefully on a lower tier is absolutely wrong.

And how do you up your game against what even you described as a beginner profession? The only logical method with this amount of stealing is to keep up almost permanent poison uptime, but most professions can’t access that (or can’t even access poison), and the ones that can can usually be countered pretty easily anyways. But tell me- how do you expect us to “up our game” against heavy armor and 400 HPS? More than likely, the only method you’re going to present is that we should “watch out” for telegraphed animations, but the truth of the matter is that that is much more easily said than done, and when there are so many telegraphed animations, it eventually becomes practically impossible to avoid all of them.

What: Thieves’ legs
Why: Sometimes they don’t instantly die and they actually start trying to run

caveman.5840:

its so sad there is a nerf wish list 4 the thief . u need a wish list telling u how to use your build against a thief lol thief’s r easy to kill if u do it right . the only class u should have trouble killing a thief with is like an element unless they r running a d/d regen element than the thief will have some trouble

Please read the post and the comments.

Maugetarr.6823:

Maesk.8753:

Arganthium.5638:

It removes one on each ally (removes one condition for each ally). It’s badly worded.

Well that makes sense now.

Their attempt at giving us group utility.

Pretty much.

Dammerung.6419:

I tend to be extremely suspicious of “X on swap” sigils unless 1. The player using them is an elementalist, 2. The player using them is using two of the same (or very, very similar) weapon set (Jumper’s S/D S/D build comes to mind for me), or 3. The player using them is using them in such a way as to burst an enemy all of a sudden in a battle (warrior rifle, IMO, is one such type of weapon).

I am in that third category, actually. I am mostly the burst damage in my small roaming group while my other party member is sustained damage. I sort of jump in and out of combat to heal while he holds down the fort. I am taking after Osicat on this one, he seems to be a big advocate of them.

If this is in fact the case, then you might want to consider only putting the sigil on one of your weapons, then. I’m not sure how much you consider both of them to be burst weapons, but traditionally, a burster has one weaponset with burst potential and another weaponset with support/mobility/whatever else.

If you know the exact method in which you attempt to counter a thief, and can narrate it from start to finish, then, IMO, that is your problem.

I don’t want to go into too much detail, but, as a zealous fan of chess, I and many others believe that “playing by the book” will only help you up to a certain point; it’s not like chess is a solved game, and that everything you see in the books is going to be correct. Similarly, judging by your recitation, you seem to have either picked this method up from somewhere, or have been using it so consistently that it has developed into a bad habit. I’d thus say that you need to get into the habit of mixing things up and trying different things out. Perhaps all of this is just a minor issue, though.

However, that doesn’t mean I can’t provide with a few tokens of wisdom (if I may call them such :P)…

1. Don’t start with Distortion. It has a pretty long CD and, honestly, you’d probably be better off using it as your last card. Furthermore, when you have no clones out (and if you ever choose to run without Illusionary Persona), you’re going to have only an extremely short Distortion, and as my other 80 outside of my thief is also a mesmer, I might say that that’s going to be a fairly dangerous thing to do so early in a battle. Distortion should always be the last trick up your sleeve.

Instead, use Decoy. It grants you a stealth (time to recover!) and doesn’t burn out that CD. Decoy also has a pretty short CD in and of itself, as well.

2. Some specifics about the build. Whereas I’m not as much of a mesmer fanatic as Osicat is, here are some things that I saw that should at least be considered by you…

- I tend to be extremely suspicious of “X on swap” sigils unless 1. The player using them is an elementalist, 2. The player using them is using two of the same (or very, very similar) weapon set (Jumper’s S/D S/D build comes to mind for me), or 3. The player using them is using them in such a way as to burst an enemy all of a sudden in a battle (warrior rifle, IMO, is one such type of weapon). As none of these seems to be the case for you, I would suggest that you replace those sigils with an old favorite of mine, Force Sigils. They’re much more reliable and have an absolutely fantastic effect. Other options would be Air Sigil (best for S/S, for you) and Fire Sigil (almost certainly better for GS).

- If you haven’t yet, consider using a staff. Those help with stuns a lot (unless 2 got nerfed, like Shadow Return is being nerfed for thief)

- Consider taking 5 points out of both Dueling and Illusions. I’ve been playing 10/25/0/10/25 with Vigorous Revelation on the Inspiration Tree. It’s just a generally useful trait which you can use to keep up long durations of vigor and the cost isn’t much (never been much of a fan of Illusionary Persona, personally, and taking an Adept trait for your GM tier in Dueling seems a bit suspect to me). The other option is 10/25/10/0/25 (which I believe is PvP mesmer Countless’ build), w/ Debilitating Dissipation. Either way, both of these trait choices are going to have a bit more utility against thieves than your current build, IMO.

One last thing- do you really have all of that Ascended gear? I’m so jealous. :/

It removes one on each ally (removes one condition for each ally). It’s badly worded.

Try changing to 10/0/0/30/30 (PvP variant of the build linked here). It provides constant condi removal, and the truth of the matter is that the traits and points that you lose from CS are hardly worth anything compared to what you’ll gain. You also get tons of condi removal from Shadow Returning a bunch.

I wouldn’t call AR “mediocre healing” because it heals for 69 points per initiative (at least); provided you generate at least 1 init per second. For me, I generate 1.05 initiative per turn passively and up to 0.48 initiative per turn actively, allowing a little over one and a half points of initiative per second. That translates into about 105-ish health per second. It’s still not, like, amazing or anything (especially because it often becomes difficult to keep passive initiative regen up at that level constantly, and because active init regen tends to be lower than the aforementioned number), but it still translates into a pretty nice amount of sustained healing over the course of a fight.

mini.6018:

Rascalking.9845:

A classes success should not be dependent on the use of a single skill.

Agree .But the problem is warrior class is completely broken without it

We’re not saying that HS should be removed, just that it should be lowered. If there is no middle ground between being OP and being broken, then the issue should be on how to improve the warrior overall.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Arganthium.5638:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Arganthium.5638:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Arganthium.5638:

See, Rascal, this is how warriors reply to the fact that their healing skill heals for at least 50 points more than every other classes’ best healing skill, and yet they still get heavy armor.

And without protection, stealth and perma vigor… That Warriors….

Perhaps I should’ve added “pre second”?

Anyways, protection never lasts long, and stealth has been said to be counterable by virtually every non stealth-using professional I’ve met. You do, however, get a fair bit of mobility with your skills, some decent condition removal (especially compared to classes like mesmer), CC everywhere, and the highest skill coefficients in the game (3.75 for a kill shot, and Volley isn’t far behind). That’s on top of having conditions greatly reduced in length, invulnerability, and plenty of stability.

I know… warriors have everything other classes want… except protection, stealth, perma vigor, pets, phantasms and clones, lets cal that AI, pulls (only gap closers, underwater combat doesn´t count).
Anyways stability can be removed / changed into condition and warrior dont have a single invulnerability skill/utility.
I almost never lose to a warrior with my mesmer/thief (sometimes i lose ofc, but they play way better than me) so i find hard to believe that top players have that big problems with warriors when they have access to blind spam and remove / corrupt boons. They should by now be able to counter their stuns (with this the uptime the warrior have to regen health between CC) the same way they can counter stealth. And if some player dont see a warrior with berserker stance up its the players fault. That skill only last 8/10 seconds max with 50 seconds downtime. Its the same thing that using your high damage skills to someone with invulnerability (true invul)

And yes i agree with you that mesmer need a litle more condition removal (and i think they will get it in 10th december, but still my berserker mesmer is way more viable than my berserker warrior.

It’s ironic that you say that things like protection (which usually is extremely limited in length) and vigor (to my knowledge, there are no builds that can get perma-vigor. I play S/D thief and I know that they don’t) are great, but stability isn’t because it can be stolen or turned into a condition.

How are people still complaining about stealth? I laugh at it nowadays- it’s ridiculously easy to counter.

Phantasms and clones don’t do that much damage, unless you allow them to…

And anyhow, none of this has anything to do with the fact that your prof gets both heavy armor and an insanely powerful passive heal.

Well i trully hope that you were tired when you wrote this because there are builds with perma vigor in some classes.
I´m not compalining about stealth, because i know how to fight a thief, (notice that i´m not saying i can counter stealth, i just know how to fight thiefs and i dont win all the time).
And i was saying that right now people should know how to fight warriors, the same way that i learned to fight thiefs.
There are some issues with thief right now (blind spam/evades/damage while in stealth) but you can work around them. Its the same on warriors.

You should read this post.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Too-many-new-warriors-or-what

Yes, I just remembered; engineers have perma-vigor, in part due to the fact that thieves can’t steal two boons any more with LS, something that your class was pushing hard for. Either way, that’s more of a discussion of whether or not engineer is OP for that, if anything.

What is there to counter about warriors? We definitely can’t put poison on you forever; most classes can’t, anyhow, and those that do have to hope that it’ll be difficult for you to condi cleanse it off. The only thing is the animations, but as I’ve been saying, that doesn’t help when there are tons of high-damage attacks with telegraphed animations. I can use eviscerate or earthshaker every 5 seconds, and eventually you’re going to miss it, our run out of stunbreakers, or whatever, and then you’re simply going to die. Other than that, warriors are arguably the simplest class in the game.

And I should mention… S/D’s style of play has been countered, multiple times, as I’ve written in some of my posts before (I’m not going to go out and find a long post I made just about the subject right now, but I will eventually). Blind spam only works if you stay in a Black Powder field, and it’s impossible to do damage while in stealth without getting Revealed, which is the way it’s always been.

So I’ll have to spend 50g on half-decent gear for sPvP as well?

Clumsy.6257:

Arganthium.5638:

It’s possible… But, as Trav said… Only under perfect conditions.

as of october 2012, hitting anything higher than 46747.26 (in pvp) is physically impossible

In PvP? Well, yeah.

Lighter.5631:

Arganthium.5638:

Lighter.5631:

don’t listen to Arganthium.5638 troll non sense noob who doesn’t know any thing other then thief and his build is kitten bad.

anyway, warrior rifle is not viable in competitive matches

but if you want some thing kills people from far and goes down like tissue if you catch him, probably war rifle (wvw only). in tpvp rifle rarely kill anyone tbh.

oh btw, you should try staff ele, i play it from time to time, huge aoe that does insane damage, 4.5k damage on light armor classes per number 1 skill with fast cast time and 1200 range, and you break like a tissue , but if you are good at it you can basically burst some one to death in an instant before he can touch you.

Yes, S/D w/ SB and the 10/0/0/30/30 trait line has been refuted and is a terrible build. On the other hand, staff ele is OP and Rifle sucks.

did i ever say staff ele is op? i mentioned it because it mets the most his demands, and rifle sucks , try it. now go away.

some times i just keep asking myself, why do i keep bothering myself with some one like you who can’t obviously read over and over again in all these threads. this will be my last reply to you, troll on my friend, troll on

You seem awfully angry.

It’s possible… But, as Trav said… Only under perfect conditions.

62.5k might be possible… But honestly, I’m not interested enough to go through the calculations. :P but yeah, definitely some pretty perfect conditions.

Lighter.5631:

don’t listen to Arganthium.5638 troll non sense noob who doesn’t know any thing other then thief and his build is kitten bad.

anyway, warrior rifle is not viable in competitive matches

but if you want some thing kills people from far and goes down like tissue if you catch him, probably war rifle (wvw only). in tpvp rifle rarely kill anyone tbh.

oh btw, you should try staff ele, i play it from time to time, huge aoe that does insane damage, 4.5k damage on light armor classes per number 1 skill with fast cast time and 1200 range, and you break like a tissue , but if you are good at it you can basically burst some one to death in an instant before he can touch you.

Yes, S/D w/ SB and the 10/0/0/30/30 trait line has been refuted and is a terrible build. On the other hand, staff ele is OP and Rifle sucks.

glaphen.5230:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_malice
You compare the two healing signets of other classes to a trait even though Thief has the highest potential healing of the signets.

Well, you could always say that AR has the highest potential healing by using 6 init/second, but that’s obviously not realistic. Same goes for that Signet.

Warrior. You’ll take hardly any damage anyways, and with rifle, you can hit people up to 1500 range away with insta-kills. Even if they do catch up to you, you’ll probably still kill them.

Thieves don’t have a single weapon skill that travels over 900 range.

killahmayne.9518:

Arganthium.5638:

See, Rascal, this is how warriors reply to the fact that their healing skill heals for at least 50 points more than every other classes’ best healing skill, and yet they still get heavy armor.

Too bad everything you say on paper (having heavy armor, a strong healing signet, the highest base HP, great condition removal) doesn’t translate into the warrior being the most OP class.

I think alot of people here said it best. No stealth, no AI, no perma-vigor, no protection, average overall healing, low evasiveness, easily telegraphed skills.

Oh? How doesn’kitten There are many, many things that you people are leaving out. Perhaps you’ve forgotten all of the ways that stealth can be countered, although, then again, I can’t imagine half of you have the brain cells required to do anything other than whine. AI are a joke, and have either been nerfed to an acceptable level or cease to exist- that, or they’re contributors to a couple of particularly OP builds in the two other OP professions. Nobody has perma vigor, and even if they did, that means nothing- I can also not get hit by any of your attacks by simply not playing the game. Protection hardly lasts anyways, and I don’t see many other professions with a block that lasts three seconds on a thirty second cool down, combined with a stun that can hit you from a range and make certain combinations possible.

Your healing is not average overall, except, perhaps, in comparison to the entirety of a guard’s healing (who does very little damage anyways); in fact, your healing skill, on passive, heals for more than any other profession in the game in terms of HPS, and heals for more than both VoResolve and the Guardian’s best heal combined. You heal for over 100 more health per second than my profession does, and, on top of that, you have both heavy and 3000 more health than thieves do anyways. I can actually run berserker builds with your heal on your prof, and live in the middle of a fight because I’m healing for +400 health per second. The amount of damage that I can do with a warrior while not having to evade constantly is far, far more than I could ever do on my S/D thief. For that reason, hell, you don’t even need to evade. Not when you can stand in the middle of a fight, spamming buttons, and taking practically no damage.

And finally, telegraphed skills mean nothing when you’re stunned without a stunbreaker, or when there are so many of them that you’re eventually going to miss out on one.

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

An engineer is tankier………… just sayin…..

It can be tankier. A warrior can build to be far tankier as well, but many builds don’t go that route.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Arganthium.5638:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Arganthium.5638:

See, Rascal, this is how warriors reply to the fact that their healing skill heals for at least 50 points more than every other classes’ best healing skill, and yet they still get heavy armor.

And without protection, stealth and perma vigor… That Warriors….

Perhaps I should’ve added “pre second”?

Anyways, protection never lasts long, and stealth has been said to be counterable by virtually every non stealth-using professional I’ve met. You do, however, get a fair bit of mobility with your skills, some decent condition removal (especially compared to classes like mesmer), CC everywhere, and the highest skill coefficients in the game (3.75 for a kill shot, and Volley isn’t far behind). That’s on top of having conditions greatly reduced in length, invulnerability, and plenty of stability.

I know… warriors have everything other classes want… except protection, stealth, perma vigor, pets, phantasms and clones, lets cal that AI, pulls (only gap closers, underwater combat doesn´t count).
Anyways stability can be removed / changed into condition and warrior dont have a single invulnerability skill/utility.
I almost never lose to a warrior with my mesmer/thief (sometimes i lose ofc, but they play way better than me) so i find hard to believe that top players have that big problems with warriors when they have access to blind spam and remove / corrupt boons. They should by now be able to counter their stuns (with this the uptime the warrior have to regen health between CC) the same way they can counter stealth. And if some player dont see a warrior with berserker stance up its the players fault. That skill only last 8/10 seconds max with 50 seconds downtime. Its the same thing that using your high damage skills to someone with invulnerability (true invul)

And yes i agree with you that mesmer need a litle more condition removal (and i think they will get it in 10th december, but still my berserker mesmer is way more viable than my berserker warrior.

It’s ironic that you say that things like protection (which usually is extremely limited in length) and vigor (to my knowledge, there are no builds that can get perma-vigor. I play S/D thief and I know that they don’t) are great, but stability isn’t because it can be stolen or turned into a condition.

How are people still complaining about stealth? I laugh at it nowadays- it’s ridiculously easy to counter.

Phantasms and clones don’t do that much damage, unless you allow them to…

And anyhow, none of this has anything to do with the fact that your prof gets both heavy armor and an insanely powerful passive heal.

Lighter.5631:

Lady Minuit.3186:

Arganthium.5638:

If 1200 range is unnecessary, then why do most other professions have it? Shouldn’t they be nerfed down to 900 range as well?

Exactly. If 1200 isn’t necessary why would warrior or guard have 1200? And I’m not saying to take it away from them, but give thief a similar option. I want to kill the tentacles in fractals and hit the freaking oil in charr fractal, i want to be able to attack a tower without compromising my behind with bad camera angles. Omg I want heat seeking back!

sorry my friend, tentacles can be killed without 1200 range, in fact 900 range is enough to not be hit and hit it, oh and i melee only those things on my thief, just saying.
what are you talking about oil, i never had a problem hitting oil with my sb, plus its aoe that bounces on multiple targets make it even easier to take out 3 of them on main gate. really?

complain about having bad camera angles when attacking a tower? its like other classes saying why can’t they walk through enemy zerg like its nothing.

also your argument make no sense, engis doesnt have signets, “if it isn’t necessary why everyone else have” and warrior doesn’t have skills that summon AIs/NPCs, “if it isn’t necessary why everyone else have”.

Well, answer this, then: why should you get 1200 range, and we shouldn’t? Shouldn’t we all be limited to 900 range, then?

silentnight warrior.2714:

Arganthium.5638:

See, Rascal, this is how warriors reply to the fact that their healing skill heals for at least 50 points more than every other classes’ best healing skill, and yet they still get heavy armor.

And without protection, stealth and perma vigor… That Warriors….

Perhaps I should’ve added “per second”?

Anyways, protection never lasts long, and stealth has been said to be counterable by virtually every non stealth-using professional I’ve met. You do, however, get a fair bit of mobility with your skills, some decent condition removal (especially compared to classes like mesmer), CC everywhere, and the highest skill coefficients in the game (3.75 for a kill shot, and Volley isn’t far behind). That’s on top of having conditions greatly reduced in length, invulnerability, and plenty of stability.

See, Rascal, this is how warriors reply to the fact that their healing skill heals for at least 50 points more than every other classes’ best healing skill, and yet they still get heavy armor.

Gonna need builds for the post-December 10th patch all. I’ll be deleting my original tank S/D, since ANet, nerfing everything and whatnot, has made PVT gear for the thief practically unusable…

Norjena.5172:

Healing Signet alone is ok, it´s only better then adrenalin surge if

These were all of the words I needed to see to know that you are hopelessly wrong and know nothing about the game.

misterdevious.6482:

I run 1k healing power and 30 acrobatics in WvW, and I approve this change. Combined with the faster initiative regen, this looks to be a substantial boost.

Only for builds running two master acro traits, such as mine and- I presume by your tone- yours. Otherwise, it’s a fairly… Odd buff/nerf (however you want to look at it). I’m leaning a little bit more towards nerf overall because healing power is still going to be a terrible stat, as it always has been.

Almost as bad as precision.

I’m personally okay with this since my build runs two trait from the Master line of Acro, and one of those was AR.

It’s still a fairly unnecessary change…

If 1200 range is unnecessary, then why do most other professions have it? Shouldn’t they be nerfed down to 900 range as well?

Lighter.5631:

Arganthium.5638:

Lighter.5631:

Arganthium.5638:

ronpierce.2760:

Arganthium.5638:

I’m sort about Backstab’s coefficient of 2.4. You must have difficulty defeating thieves with your Rifle’s Kill Shot’s coefficient of 3.75. :c

Oh god, please never pretend Kill Shot is a reliable/good skill. I don’t play warrior and even I know that move is an absolute joke… >_>:

If you’re talking about the cast time, then I could always mention that you first have to, y’know, see your enemy coming, and then you have to react extremely quickly; not burning all of your evades is probably going to be necessary, because the effects of being 1-shotted are disastrous otherwise.

Either way, that’s over 150% of BS’s damage; of course it should have some weaknesses.

i wonder why rifle was never a viable weapon in tpvp.

I just used it in sPvP. Created a warrior 20 mins ago, was too lazy to find a good build online. I just created a GC rifle build and it worked extremely well compared to other BS’d builds I’ve made in the past.

and i run my thief naked in spvp, real cool story.

I can tell you that if I played my thief as terribadly as I did that warrior, I would have died instantaneously. But with heavy armor and +400 HPS, I didn’t have to worry about that.

Lighter.5631:

Arganthium.5638:

ronpierce.2760:

Arganthium.5638:

I’m sort about Backstab’s coefficient of 2.4. You must have difficulty defeating thieves with your Rifle’s Kill Shot’s coefficient of 3.75. :c

Oh god, please never pretend Kill Shot is a reliable/good skill. I don’t play warrior and even I know that move is an absolute joke… >_>:

If you’re talking about the cast time, then I could always mention that you first have to, y’know, see your enemy coming, and then you have to react extremely quickly; not burning all of your evades is probably going to be necessary, because the effects of being 1-shotted are disastrous otherwise.

Either way, that’s over 150% of BS’s damage; of course it should have some weaknesses.

i wonder why rifle was never a viable weapon in tpvp.

I just used it in sPvP. Created a warrior 20 mins ago, was too lazy to find a good build online. I just created a GC rifle build and it worked extremely well compared to other BS’d builds I’ve made in the past.

ronpierce.2760:

Arganthium.5638:

I’m sort about Backstab’s coefficient of 2.4. You must have difficulty defeating thieves with your Rifle’s Kill Shot’s coefficient of 3.75. :c

Oh god, please never pretend Kill Shot is a reliable/good skill. I don’t play warrior and even I know that move is an absolute joke… >_>:

If you’re talking about the cast time, then I could always mention that you first have to, y’know, see your enemy coming, and then you have to react extremely quickly; not burning all of your evades is probably going to be necessary, because the effects of being 1-shotted are disastrous otherwise.

Either way, that’s over 150% of BS’s damage; of course it should have some weaknesses.

To be completely honest with you, Celestial gear is almost never superior to other types of gear in any build across any profession. The inconsistency simply makes a build completely pointless. If you ever use Celestial gear, it’s only going to be to balance out the other gear types that you have in what would otherwise still be a “jack-of-all-trades” build, and those builds tend not to be very effective anyways.

If you’re looking for survivability, go Soldier’s. It’ll provide you a decent bit of damage while also giving you magnificent protection. The build that I used to use in sPvP was this (or this for WvW), and while it is still an acceptable build, the truth of the matter is that it is fairly ineffective. Thieves have begun to crawl to the bottom rung of the ladder, and I would say that, apart from elementalists, thieves are very likely the worst class in the game (eles, unfortunately, were hit far harder than they should’ve been, and many of the problems plaguing them at the release of this game still affect them today). As it just so happens, the only real trump cards that we have compared to other classes, which are, for the most part, independent of one another, are stealth and mobility.

Stealth is only really useful for reconnaissance and burst damage, although the former can easily be accomplished by mobility. On the other hand, mobility affects a large number of factors: being able to travel to places you normally wouldn’t be able to, to use different tactics in battle, and so forth. However, burst doesn’t work if you don’t do a lot of burst damage, and, given the current state of the game, using your mobility will only work out to your advantage if you can do lots of damage, because it takes so long otherwise to take out an enemy and thus gives them more time to counter you.

Long story short, if you’re going to run a stealth build (D/D), these days, you have to run high damage. Otherwise, you defeat the purpose of the build, and other classes are going to surpass you in effectiveness. While that especially applies to D/D, it also applies to all other thief builds. In other words: if you aren’t going to run high damage, you’re going to be very ineffective compared to other classes.

Hope you only read the important bits. tell me what you think so far.

I’m sort about Backstab’s coefficient of 2.4. You must have difficulty defeating thieves with your Rifle’s Kill Shot’s coefficient of 3.75. :c

Nebilim.5127:

I remember when people used to say that warriors was his own tier of kittenty class in pvp. Seeing this now is just hilarious. Same goes for necro. You guys are mad over classes not being a free kill anymore.

Oh no, we’re still mad about classes being a free kill; it’s just that those classes have become classes like rangers, thieves, and elementalists.

Lighter.5631:

Arganthium.5638:

Lighter.5631:

You surely don’t know how this games work don’t you? mesmer have been warrior killer since the beginning. even now. go make one, and my friends mesmer will faceroll you, or actually go ask better players and question your own skill, before qqing like a little kitten.

Nope, I know absolutely nothing about the game. I am completely ignorant and this is only one of my first posts ever on these forums. Furthermore, even within my own community, I have contributed virtually nothing to the betterment of this game. I have not made any builds worth looking at, and I thus have no credibility whatsoever to these very important and deep debates.

Sorry, but knowing thief doesn’t make you any more credible on the subject between mesmer and warrior. nice try.

Neither does knowing that the formula for the marginal benefit per point of precision is equivalent to…

1+((((1-(1/21*0.01+Critical Chance)((1/21*0.01Critical Chance)))/(1-Critical Chance+((Critical Chance)(Total Critical Damage)))-1)Defensive Amplification+1)-1)Additional Offensive Amplification

…I suppose, then. But it’s okay guys; Lighter has all of the facts and mountains of evidence supporting him. Every word he says must be regarded as true, for he is the brilliant prodigy seeking to end world hunger and to colonize other planets light years away.

Lighter.5631:

You surely don’t know how this games work don’t you? mesmer have been warrior killer since the beginning. even now. go make one, and my friends mesmer will faceroll you, or actually go ask better players and question your own skill, before qqing like a little kitten.

Nope, I know absolutely nothing about the game. I am completely ignorant and this is only one of my first posts ever on these forums. Furthermore, even within my own community, I have contributed virtually nothing to the betterment of this game. I have not made any builds worth looking at, and I thus have no credibility whatsoever to these very important and deep debates.

I don’t have an ascended weapon, but if I could get some, I would start by getting an ascended shortbow, then sword, and then dagger. Unfortunately, my Hunstman isn’t even remotely close to 500, and my weaponsmith still has another 65 or so levels to go.

Lighter.5631:

What makes you think that there’s only heal in this game. the amount of healing you get from your number 6 doesn’t give you more sustain, why warrior used to be free kill tier, when healing surge heal for like 10k on zerker.

Healing signet is not OP, no one ever actually proved it OP. if it has the best healing, then possibly explain why it’s low tier bunker? and healing signet does not work in zerker, only if your enemy is a ultra bunker that does no damage.

if you keep “balancing” the game just around the amount of health a healing skill brings, then balance will not exist in this game.

No, nobody proved it. My post explaining how the heal is higher than every other profession’s heal by a significant margin certainly didn’t prove anything. That has nothing to do with the subject. Absolutely nothing at all.