Guild Wars 2

Seed.5467:

Arganthium.5638:

As others have said, the 3% damage nerf to Burst Mastery is very small, and, when other things such as the buff to Great Fortitude are taken into account, this nerf means virtually nothing.

Keep in mind please, that Burst Mastery affects all the weapons the warriors is using. So a 3% Damage reduction to 10% Damage Trait will hurt other weaker builds. So we are talking a 3% damage reduction from a 10% Damage to :

• Eviscerate
• Arcing Slice
• Earthshaker
• Combustive Shot
• Skull Crack
• Kill Shot
• Flurry
• Forceful Shot
• Whirling Strike

Regards

Seed

Yes, I realize that.

I also realize that many of these attacks have insanely high skill coefficients as well, and that 3% less damage is practically equivalent to only three stacks of Vulnerability, which is a fairly bad condition as it is unless applied in great quantities.

He walks into a bar…

… And suffers severe brain injury due to losing 3 of his 5 brain cells, but manages to regenerate instantaneously.

jmatb.6307:

Don’t argue with mini its a waste of time

Yes, I’m beginning to see that…

mini.6018:

…

Alright, let’s look at this a bit more objectively, outside the realm of comparing nerfs and buffs, and instead looking at comparisons of skills between classes.

After the nerf, Earthshaker will still be doing at least 45.66% of the damage done by a back-sided Backstab (I say “at least” because ANet is rather odd with its mathematics), the thief skill most often complained about by your class. However, people don’t use Earthshaker for the damage, realistically speaking; they use it for the stun, which lasts quite a long time and covers a fair range, and has, relatively speaking, a short cast time.

On the other hand, Backbreaker will still do over half of the damage that a back-sided BS will do, and, again, it comes with a long CC.

As others have said, the 3% damage nerf to Burst Mastery is very small, and, when other things such as the buff to Great Fortitude are taken into account, this nerf means virtually nothing.

And while I misread the fact about Combustive Shot, the increase in burn duration makes up for the pulses.

mini.6018:

Arganthium.5638:

Let me put it this way:

This morning a warrior argued with me that [url=https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Fighting-classes-that-kite-you/first#post3296178] warriors have average or even bad healing compared to a profession like, say, the engineer. I said yes, they do, assuming that both the warrior and the engineer in a fight have over 7,000 healing power, and then a bit more to make the warrior’s heal actually look “average” or “bad”.

In fact, if we look at the highest base heal per class possible (just looking at healing skills, in healing per second or HPS):

Ele- ~333.33 HPS, or 2 1/3 spells per second to match warrior’s heal
Engineer- 336 HPS
Guardian- 203.75 HPS, which, with VoResolve, is 287.75 HPS
Mesmer- generally, an absolute maximum of 374 HPS or a minimum of 278 HPS
Necro- min. 209.6 HPS, additional 28.96 HPS for each condition applied to a necro on average
Ranger- 340 HPS
Thief- 289.6 HPS, or need ~4 hits per second to match warrior’s heal
Warrior- 392 HPS

And that’s not including cast times, otherwise heals like the ele’s would heal for only ~270.27 HPS.

Of course, these are just base heals; actions can be taken to step them up, but a warrior can generally take many of those same actions as well, if he/she wanted.

But anyhow…. You have absolutely no right to complain. The warrior’s heal far outmatches the heals of the other classes.

Half the classes you just listed have other aditional ways to heal themselves(waterfields+blast,mantras and so on.). So many in fact that the basic heal is just a bonus..

Are you f***ing kidding me?

I do not know a single professional player who honestly believes that regular heals are “just a bonus”. I will repeat, however, that the warrior has plenty of of other methods to heal itself as well, one of which being Adrenal Health, which provides a lot of HPS as well. You also have stuff like Endure Pain as well, which prevents all damage, of course.

Oh, and as for water fields and mantras:

- An engineer blasting a water field with Cleansing Burst+Detonate Healing Turret still requires +7000 healing power to match a warr’s general HPS, and other methods of blasting water fields often require other sacrifices, be it practically or theoretically, in order to blast the field.

- Mantras, generally, only heal for more if they 1. Aren’t interrupted and 2. Have three uses (requiring thirty points into Domination, which is a massive commitment), and it’s honestly extremely difficult to charge a mantra mid-battle. I know this because I have used mantras before- in fact, I’ve used mantra-based builds before- and usually, you won’t be needing to charge a mantra in the middle of a battle; you’ll usually either die by the time you get halfway through charging, or your opponent will be dead at that point. Mantra builds are full glass, and either way mantras can only really be charged outside of battle. There’s a reason why no top mesmer uses mantras.

Mini: That is, by definition, melee. The strategy might be considered hit-and-run, but it is necessarily melee. Anyways, you can’t just use Infi Strike over and over and over again; you have to, y’know, use “actual melee skills”.

I’d also like to say that if you don’t believe thieves are the squishiest class in the game, you have yet to play one… Properly, anyhow…

mini.6018:

Arganthium.5638:

Also, how are all of the buffs with the additional couple of nerfs making this update a serious nerf?

wich buffs ? o.O

Strength 5 – Reckless Dodge. Increased Damage by 25%
Strength III – Great Fortitude. Increased conversion rate from 5% to 7%.
Arms VII – Crack Shot. Moved to Adept Tier. (very good for glass rifle builds)
Arms XII – Last Chance. Increased the threshold form 25% to 50%. Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 40seconds.
Defense 25 – Armored Attack. Increased conversion rate from 5% to 10%.
Defense XII – Spiked Armor. Reduced the recharge from 15s to 10s.
Tactics 25 – Reviver’s Might. Now applies 3 stacks of Might instead of 1.
Discipline II – Thrill of the Kill. Increased Adrenaline gain from 1 to 10.
Combustive Shot – Increased pulse duration to 3s. Increased burn duration per pulse to 3s. Normalized damage per pulse. Updated pulses per tier to 2, 3,and 4 respectively for tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3.

Granted, some of those buffs were deserved, but then again, all of the nerfs were easily foreseeable and are very much deserved, or are anyways inapplicable.

And let’s not forget how good the warrior’s heal is, either…

Let me put it this way:

This morning a warrior argued with me that [url=https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Fighting-classes-that-kite-you/first#post3296178] warriors have average or even bad healing compared to a profession like, say, the engineer. I said yes, they do, assuming that both the warrior and the engineer in a fight have over 7,000 healing power, and then a bit more to make the warrior’s heal actually look “average” or “bad”.

In fact, if we look at the highest base heal per class possible (just looking at healing skills, in healing per second or HPS):

Ele- ~333.33 HPS, or 2 1/3 spells per second to match warrior’s heal
Engineer- 336 HPS
Guardian- 203.75 HPS, which, with VoResolve, is 287.75 HPS
Mesmer- generally, an absolute maximum of 374 HPS or a minimum of 278 HPS
Necro- min. 209.6 HPS, additional 28.96 HPS for each condition applied to a necro on average
Ranger- 340 HPS
Thief- 289.6 HPS, or need ~4 hits per second to match warrior’s heal
Warrior- 392 HPS

And that’s not including cast times, otherwise heals like the ele’s would heal for only ~270.27 HPS.

Of course, these are just base heals; actions can be taken to step them up, but a warrior can generally take many of those same actions as well, if he/she wanted.

But anyhow…. You have absolutely no right to complain. The warrior’s heal far outmatches the heals of the other classes.

Also, how are all of the buffs with the additional couple of nerfs making this update a serious nerf?

VIDAR die Axt.2136:

Dear GW2 team.

PLEASE DO NOT NERF THE WARRIOR HAMMER BUILD!

Earthshaker is THE ONLY cool skill the hamwarrior has

Because the issue isn’t about balance any more, it’s about making your skills look cool.

Eloquence.5207:

May I trade my Guardian scepter for your thief short bow?

While I would certainly agree that the guardian should have some better ranged options, I’d also like to mention that the scepter is perfectly fine for WvW as compared to, say, sPvP. Even if you don’t hit your target, you’ll hit something, which is often more than we can hope for (unless we pull off some trick involving, for example, hitting a mosquito with trick shot and allowing the arrow to bounce off and hit an enemy). Smite and Chains of Light are both pretty good, and they reach up to 1200 distance. CoL, in fact, can be used to transition into a melee fight.

There are also weapons like the focus, staff, and hammer that have options that allow you to hit an enemy at 1200 range.

Thieves have absolutely nothing that allows them to hit at 1200 range.

Either way, I may have ranted on a bit; the discussion shouldn’t be about improving guard’s scepter or thief’s range, but about fixing both.

Marcos.3690:

I propose a much more interesting topic: Game balance.

I start: Ele is the weakest class I’ve seen in any pvp game. Warrior is godlike.

I’ve wanted to change from thief to ele recently, but because of how pathetically sad they are atm, I’ve more or less been stuck with the sinking thief ship. >.<

And yeah, can ANet please realize that warriors are incredibly overpowered right now, and, by the looks of things, they aren’t going to change any time soon?

Burnfall.9573:

Yeah ok!!

I’m a vet of guild wars for 7 years, i’’m a vet of guild wars 2 since beta, yet i’m Bullkitten

Seriously, you have to do better than that.

Once again , playing the BLAME GAME is the solution of fixing this class and the game

You claim to be a thief, so why not publicly confess that thief is in PERFECT condition than?.

In other word, all thief players who see a problem with their class, are liars than, and you are the only one who is telling the truth.

I would like to remind you, i belong to a thief guild, consists of 150 + active members and it took me a long time to see their class weakness because i was in-denial and how i was blinded by my own ignorance of refusing to understand their class.

I also give many credit to the thieves here as well, for being patient and understanding of me; and they deserve it!

There are many good hearted sincere thief players here. as well, who will do whatever it take, in helping other to know the truth of their class situations.

And also, there are troublemakers, rule-breakers who will do whatever it take to humiliate and belittle anyone who dare question the truth or reveal the truth of their class brokenness.

“so to make a long story short”, as the saying goes, “Blaming without understanding the truth get you nowhere, only leave you in your own cloud of ignorance and stupidity”

Stop blaming, and accept the truth!

Stop blaming sincere thieves for exposing the truth of their class brokenness!

Stop being in-denial of the truth!

Thief class is broken, and it is not their fault for being this way.

If you care for thief class, accept the truth and encourage Arena.net to fix your class; i prefer a thief reboot.

-Nerfing thief class will not fix their problems; infact it will make them worse; you will see~

Thief class must be re-designed from the ground up, and to be able to survive on their own, instead of being enslaved to a stealth mechanic that hinders them of taken full advantage of their class potential.

so getting back to you, if you still want to play the blame game and continue to refuse your class brokenness, i encourage you take it to the one who is responsible for thief class…

Arena.net

-Case Closed-

Christ, aren’t you annoying.

Perhaps I should start by stating how I understand this game far better than you do, and far better than many, if not most, of the self-proclaimed “professionals” do. I could also mention how many of the ideas coming from people like you are based on ill-conceived ideas that were created with no thought behind them.

On the other hand, Burnfall, your main source of authority comes from apparently having played GW1 for years, and having played GW2 since beta. I’ve played GW2 since beta as well, and- sorry to say it- your experience in GW1 is absolutely irrelevant to this game. Also, if you think that the thieves here on these forums were being “patient” with you, then you’re completely delusional.

Now, let’s look at what your Truest Truth™ has to support it… Basically, just the words of people like Sanduskel who have practically been laughed out of this community anyways. Why is the mechanic broken? How are the methods of countering stealth faulty? These are just a couple of questions left completely unanswered by you and the majority of the community that complains about thieves, which, ironically, consists mostly of warriors- in my experience, anyways.

I do not say any of this because I am some kind of perma-stealth “lol so OP” thief. In fact, since the original changes to the weaponset, I have been an ardent supporter of the Sword/Dagger play style.

My last question to you would be- why do you give credibility to people like Sanduskel, and yet completely ignore others who, like me, have no interest in nerfing stealth, and have little or nothing to gain from being so?

EDIT: also, I don’t suppose you were opposed to the ridiculously OP Spirit Ranger before it got nerfed, were you?

Clumsy.6257:

Arganthium.5638:

1200 range is necessary in all game modes if only because it helps you do what flanking is meant to do: get you away from melee enemies while still dealing some degree of damage, and possibly causing your enemy to overextend or flee.

1200 range is very unnecessary in pve, im all for forcing everyone to have a max of 600 range in pve

Some bosses are almost impossible to melee because their melee attacks allow them to 1-shot you often.

Burnfall.9573:

In defense and support to Sanduskel, and to many sincere, honest and truth-bearing thieves, here and in gw2 reddit forums..

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/19bnb7/why_stealth_needs_a_nerf_in_world_vs_world/

and no! i’m not a troll either; look up my history.

We know your history, and of the constant stream of bullkitten coming from your mouth.

EDIT: can I also add that that reddit thread is nine months old? The player also had some really good gear compared to his enemies, and the main issue, if anything, was the ridiculous amount of healing he got from whatever that food he was using was.

Big Tower.5423:

Hey, please tell us what you’re even talking about? You just rush and say bad bad bad bad bad bad and does not even say the name of the thing you talk about…

I’d also add that he’s likely talking, more specifically, about Cluster Bomb, which used to have 1200 range (our only weapon skill that had it), but got its range nerfed to 900 out of nowhere. Just another ridiculous and absurd balance change, made by, yours truly, ArenaNet.

1200 range is necessary in all game modes if only because it helps you do what flanking is meant to do: get you away from melee enemies while still dealing some degree of damage, and possibly causing your enemy to overextend or flee.

SpecterMAT.7306:

Arganthium.5638:

since warriors regen health at one of the most ridiculously OP rates in the game,

I seen yesterday a tons of engineers which regened wwaaaaaaaaay more HP than me.
Had much more damage resist than me.
Blinded me to hell, burned me to hell, kited me to hell.

wurriur so OP. insta life regen 360 speedrun dubstep signet.

No. Warrior regen is not even close the best regen.

Okay.

The Healing Turret (which I’m assuming you’re talking about) heals for 2,520 (base) on drop, and, with cleansing burst, heals for another 2,520 health. Across these two skills, there is a healing bonus of 1 per healing power. That’s a total of 5,040 health per every ~15 seconds, or 336 health per second, with a bonus of ~0.0567 HPS per point of healing power. If you factor in blasting the water field upon using cleansing burst via Detonate Healing Turret, then your heal drops down to 318 HPS with a slightly higher benefit from healing power, 0.06 additional HPS.

Meanwhile, warriors have a base healing rate of 392 HPS, with a benefit of 0.05 HPS from healing power. An engineer’s healing doesn’t reach above that until his/her healing power reaches somewhere over 7000 (btw, that would happen to be healing power w/ blasting the water finisher from blowing up your turret). Needless to say, a number that high is completely unrealistic. I would thus say that the phenomenon you experienced was a result of the engineer’s lower health pool relative to yours, so that it would appear that the engineer healed more than you did even though, realistically speaking, he did not. It would be as if my thief had 6,000 health, and I healed for 5,000. To you, it would look like I’d healed 20,000 health or whatnot, but in reality I only healed for 5,000; it’s just that 5,000 was more of my health bar than it was of yours.

TL;DR: warriors heal for more health per second than engineers do unless an engineer has over 7,000 healing power, which is completely unrealistic.

Laserbolt.6731:

How do you know you are skilled?

You play a warrior.

killahmayne.9518:

Arganthium.5638:

If you’re worried about these classes kiting you, you’re probably just a bad warrior. Most of the time classes have to get right up in your face and try to take you out in a toe-to-toe duel since warriors regen health at one of the most ridiculously OP rates in the game, have heavy armor, and amazing base stats, among other things… Melee tends to be the only way to deal with that kind of defense, and in melee, warriors tend to excel compared to other classes.

that isn’t necessarily so. And warrior’s regen isn’t ridiculously OP. Good mesmers will give any warrior trouble because of their stealth, random procs on aegis, blurred frenzy, teleports and overall ways to mitigate damage. They can easily kite full melee warriors to death quite simply because they have as many get out of jail free cards as the warriors have stuns. All the while the mesmers are putting a lot of conditions on you and the clones/illusions attacking you. They have more than enough DPS to take a warrior down from range.

If a mesmer can’t kite a full melee warrior and let them run a muck on you melee they are a bad mesmer. I have a feeling you just face a lot of baddies.

While it is true that the warrior has among the best melee in the game, I would also argue that Necros are very deadly if you aren’t careful, good thieves can pick you apart in melee although I don’t think they are a huge issue. A warrior has a lot of healing and toughness and are tanky themselves, but very possible to take down, even from range. You just have to force warriors to blow their shield cooldown, they aren’t very evasive at all in melee combat, at least compared to mesmers, rangers, thieves, d/d eles. And if warriors use hammers, they are that much easier to kite. It isn’t difficult to dodge their stuns/knockdowns whatsoever. And a hammer is useless if one can’t land any of them. Fighting a warrior, all you really need to do is save your dodges for some of the most telegraphed animations in the game.

If warriors have a longbow, then it is a little different, but when they use longbow you can take advantage of warriors in melee because they have low combat evasiveness. Only thing u really need to worry about is the amount of pulses of burning you have. A longbow is only good until most of the major cooldowns are blown, because the autoattacks are slow.

~400 health per second, just from a passive signet? That’s pretty good. I’d have to be hitting you at least 4 times per second in order to get that kind of healing as a thief, and an ele would have to cast, on average, ~2.5 spells per second, which is fairly demanding.

As for mesmers, mesmers have no way to reduce your heals via poison (which the majority of the professional thief community agrees is one of the, if not the best way to counter warriors). Furthermore, if you’ve ever played a mesmer, you have to realize that all of that DPS and condition damage is hardly possible unless the mesmer is running very high DPS gear, in which case you can probably take out the mesmer fairly quickly anyways. Y’all also have some very good condition removal/dampening.

Necros are only deadly, if anything, because of a single short-CD signet which is, in large fights, often the equivalent of an insta-kill. Still, warrs hardly need to worry about that because of skills like Zerker Stance and traits like Cleansing Ire, which, paired with insanely high adrenaline regen, makes condition play very difficult against warriors.

As for hammer- if the enemy kites, you can just kite back, or close the gap quickly with GS. At melee, you can’t evade every telegraphed animation; warrs just need to spam them enough, and eventually they’ll hit one of their attacks and you’ll have to burn a stun break; eventually, you’ll just get killed because of a lack of stun breakers or whatnot. Either way, it’s extremely dangerous to face a hammer at melee range.

Still playing my WvW S/D:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsYVlYm6OncS6E+5Eh3DyO2wqVgmdP4qV1KA-jUCBYfCiEFgkFQUBAJPFRjtQqIas6aYKXER1WzFRrWKA9UGB-w

I don’t actually have most of this stuff, but if I could get whatever I wanted, I’d make my build this way.

Granted, I haven’t tried to use my “mathematical correctness” on it at all (right now, for example, 1 point vitality is as valuable kitten .368 points power and 1 point toughness is as valuable as 3.743 points of power), but running zerker gear is much more fun than running PVT gear or whatnot.

Sensotix.4106:

*
Healing Signet: One of the main sources why warrior is so strong.. (also it’s passive play again that doesn’t acquire any skill) no matter how hard hammer longbow will be nerfed next patch..healing signet will still be one of the main factors why other warrior builds will still be too strong

Noob, haven’t you learnt yet- you’re supposed to counter passive play actively! Yeah!

The class balance is so bad that investing time in sPvP is practically pointless. Warriors, which used to be terrible, suddenly became the top of the food chain after one or two patches. Thieves are given a bunch of buffs, a few more nerfs, and then those buffed areas are nerfed later on. Rangers became insanely easy to play with the Spirit Ranger whereas, beforehand, they were practically useless. Guards have turned from a support class into a class that is virtually invincible unless a player uses a full zerker build, and even then, the zerker player is taking a huge risk against guards…

ANet doesn’t make changes the way it should. It uses revolution over evolution and, in doing so, ruins the game in another way every couple of months or so.

If you’re worried about these classes kiting you, you’re probably just a bad warrior. Most of the time classes have to get right up in your face and try to take you out in a toe-to-toe duel since warriors regen health at one of the most ridiculously OP rates in the game, have heavy armor, and amazing base stats, among other things… Melee tends to be the only way to deal with that kind of defense, and in melee, warriors tend to excel compared to other classes.

Zerker is almost always going to be superior in terms of overall damage.

Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve always thought that the thief’s steal skill was actually perfect as it was.

I’d rather see changes to P/P and nerfs to warr as well as a few changes to past thief nerfs tbh

Excalibur.9748:

…Warrior is good at all of those modes (ANET golden child and most played class)…

I see what you did there.

Peow peow.2189:

Hi

I just started this game and I am playing a warrior. Whenever I see people in the mists pvp they spam me when i beat them saying im playing an easy class.

Why do they act this way? Is something wrong with the warrior?

Well, let’s put it this way. The vast majority of the thief community has moved over to other classes, and some of the big names have moved to warrior specifically. Furthermore, because apparently Shadow Return on sword was too powerful for “stun breaking” (which only happens in very limited circumstances), it’s getting nerfed as well by ANet, so that now I have no way to counter stuns once I pull out all three of my stunbreaks (which happens fairly often), which are my utilities.

Given ANet’s amazing insight into the game, yeah, I’d say that Warrior is a pretty easy class. On the other hand, professions like thieves and elementalists…

anzku.2876:

Whats skills are best to get stealth?

Heartseeker + Black Powder
Shadow Refuge
Cloak and Dagger (sometimes)
Infusion of Shadows (sometimes)
Blinding Powder

Taku.6352:

Don’t walk into the spore mines… They show a clear AoE marker around them and pop few seconds later.

I learned this the hard way lol.

Got downed about 3-4 times and must have spent a total of 5 minutes getting back up.

Sanduskel.1850:

Stealthers aren’t this hated in other games because once they commit to a fight they can’t disappear mid fight. It’s clearly not a minority who hates this. Anet has the facts, and they wouldn’t respond to a minority. I for one, trust anet to do what’s right for the health of the game. They have data, we don’t.

This is absolutely and horrendously incorrect. I’ve developed hundreds of equations to describe a host of various aspects of the game, and in doing so I’ve been both criticized and completely rejected by a number of players who perhaps don’t think that their “amazing skillz” can be changed into numbers. And yet, here we have a case where it is in fact ANet with the numbers, and it’s credible? Certainly, throughout my studies of this game, no one has refuted my calculations, but I’ve received little credit for those whereas ANet is being hailed by people like you as some kind of truth-telling prophet. The truth of the matter is, when you truly understand what the kitten you’re doing when you play this game, it’s really not all that difficult to delve deeper into the mechanics and derive the usefulness of certain skills, utilities, and stats. So please, understand what you’re talking about before making broad, sweeping claims like that.

phys.7689:

Crawford.4135:

phys.7689:

LoneWolfie.1852:

phys.7689:

so a pistol/dagger thief has more torments, stealth bleeds, imobs cripples
so a dagger dagger thief has more cloak and dagger, bleeds and evasions
so a sword dagger thief is gaining more initiative while dancing around
so a sword pistol theif is gaining more initiative while dancing around/stunning players

so a venom sharing build isnt giving up all the positional shadow steps and only pressing 1 because he got no ini

Yeah i get that it MAY slightly effect people doing a max dps rotation versus a mob that is never a threat to them and so they never do anything but attack, but i dont think that one playstyle should be the one which forces all others to have crappy ini gains. In fact i would hope they improve thier AI to where thats never the right answer for a fight.

how do you realistically propose they give all the builds which actually need more ini regen ini, without increasing the 80 you are used to, to 120 ini?

WOW. That’s very simple… how about giving thieves base regen of 1/second without any strings attached? Doesn’t mean flat out increasing the regen = instant OP thief. If you recall we’re getting FLAT nerfs on our Vigor. If our crit line is indeed generating too much initiative, we can tweak opportunist a little.

You are still failing to realize the key here is balancing the traits among themselves. Regardless of whether thief is op for other classes, the ini traits would still be requirements for the best builds. You wouldn’t be making more builds viable, you’d just be buffing everything.

Yes thief needs various buffs, but there’s a difference between balancing builds and balancing classes against each other

Are you a Thief? No? What’s your point, then?

Had a level 80 thief since like 4 weeks after release. So yeah I am. Point is thief needs more viable builds. By making it so 50% of max ini regen comes from a few traits everyone has to take those traits. Which severely limits builds.

Buffs compared to other classes ia a seperate issue and needs its own solutions

Actually, I think you’re wrong about initiative.

As it so happens, with this upcoming initiative change, all builds are going to have more initiative. This means that the marginal benefit for additional initiative already starts off fairly low, and thus discourages players from spending valuable trait points into the Trix trait line. This means that one of our trait lines is rendered useless.

Furthermore, builds that didn’t require more initiative but could certainly benefit from it (ie D/P) gain more than do builds that used lots of initiative (ie S/D) and were on equal footing as other thief builds, but because of decreasing marginal benefit actually become worse than these other builds.

Finally, what builds have been rendered useless because they don’t have enough initiative? I can’t really think of any. Instead, all of the evidence points towards this change, in fact, decreasing build viability.

Sanduskel.1850:

Think we need to tone down the melodrama. certain elements were badly op’d. For the health of the game, Anet is fixing them. Thieves are fine now and will continue to be fine. Relax.

“Fixing”?! Yeah, because we needed more init regen to render half of our builds inviable… And the “stun break” on sword #2 which is the only way to avoid being eviscerated every five seconds by a warrior? Yeah, that needed “fixing” too.

Just some more absolutely idiotic changes based on things that either a) allow dominant builds to be even more dominant, b) completely annihilate other viable thief builds, or c) have literally no basis in any reality known to mankind.

Just the usual, though.

EDIT: oh yeah, and still no changes to P/P that make the weaponset more viable… Changes that were promised in May.

Opynn.2936:

Is seems that a lot of thieves need to l2p. Good that OP rolled Warrior, now you know how to fight Warriors (Is same thing that you said when ppl complained about theif- roll one and see) As for video- wow you killed another Warrior using rifle? so that makes warrior not op?

Funny how other profs- warriors in particular- used to say that thieves should stop saying “l2p” and should just accept that they “should be nerfed”. We were criticized for using a phrase based on pages and pages of mathematical, tactical, and strategic theory. Oh, the irony.

As for warrior, I’ve played it many, many times for all types of reasons. However, the difference between the thief and the warrior is that while there are practically limitless resources on how to counter thieves because the majority of misplays are either simple tactical mishaps (being untrained in countering backstabs) or general strategic misunderstandings (not understanding the idea behind stealth builds). However, the issue with the warrior is not with either of those things, but rather with the very nature of the warrior. Tell me- how much “skill” do you require in order to master the warrior? On Colox’s video, I list out the differences between S/D and warrior builds in general…

- positional knowledge
- forwards planning before starting an engagement (related to positional knowledge)
- dynamic knowledge (i.e. what to do during the fight, how to spend initiative, how to balance waves of attacking, etc.)
- knowledge of when to use utilities (common among virtually all builds)
- a very specifically designed hotkey setup that allows you to react extremely quickly
- knowledge of when to sacrifice your resources (i.e. initiative, damage, certain signets, range, etc.)
- strong tactical ability

And warriors, generally speaking, require:
- knowledge of when to use your utilities

.. And that’s about it.

Do you have anything to dispute there? Or are you just another noob without the slightest inkling of knowledge about this game?

Whatever, man. Look, I gotta admit it: the skill level required to get excellent results on a warrior is so incredibly low as compared to a thief is absolutely kittening ridiculous, and yet it’s the thieves that keep getting nerfed still. I’ve written so much about the thief and how to counter it, and have even provided ANet with the means of mathematically proving its balance, and not only have they completely ignored me, but they have in fact swayed with the mindless sheep droning on without end because of their own lack of skill.

Personally, I’m still going to play thief. I’ve played thief since I first got the game, and I find every other profession far too boring to even touch (excluding, maybe, mesmer). I also love the mobility that I get on my thief. I will, however, say one thing in particular: ever since necros became OP, I’ve been playing full zerker gear, which is optimal against condi builds but is generally more fun to play anyways. Since then, however, the purpose has shifted from being directed against condi builds to being against ridiculously OP warrior builds in general. If I don’t run zerker, I don’t do any damage and I get smashed anyways. If I do run it, then I take a huge risk that relies entirely upon my own skill while my opponent facerolls the keyboard. I do an insanely small amount of damage while having to stay at a range and time my dodges well. On the other hand, if I get hit more than once or twice, I’ll probably just drop dead.

I also now have to run 3(!!!) stun breakers as well + shadow return along with immobilize/cripple/chill breakers via Shadow Returns, Withdraws, and Roll for Initiatives at suboptimal times. I still run my 10/0/0/30/30 build, but the amount of effort in order to get anything done is almost ridiculous. Furthermore, guardians have now become so ridiculously difficult to kill that I usually take only two or three stabs at them before I decide to simply walk away. I’ve seen groups of 5-10 people in WvW unable to take down a guardian easily because of how stupid they are right now.

But no, ANet, thieves, of all professions, are completely OP.

10/0/0/30/30 for high initiative regeneration and whatnot… Just run a zerker amulet and you’ll be doing at least as much, if not more damage than 10/30/0/30/0 or 0/30/0/30/10, whatever everybody uses nowadays…

Just dropping by to say that:

1. The people who are complaining about thieves being underpowered in this thread were probably never good at the class anyways;

2. The people who are complaining about thieves being either a) too easy to play or b) overpowered don’t understand the math behind this game.

AtoBoss.2906:

Maybe bring some stability and dont hang around the edges…

Gee thanks, I’ll make sure to get stability for my thief/mesmer/necro right away so that I don’t have to worry about ridiculously overpowered knockbacks killing me instantly.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Arganthium.5638:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

butch.8136:

But hey, they can show the world that they had a 10k tournament.

Especially when 1 year after GW1 launch, they hosted a 100 000 dollar tournament.

*10,000

100,000*

Sorry, read GW2 there, wasn’t thinking. Was kinda confused lol

Bas.7406:

Arganthium.5638:

Fuzion.7613:

You guys kittened up the pax tourny, That is all.

How did they do that?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Countless-Thought-s-On-Pax-Tourne/first#post2749102

Fuzion.7613:

You guys kittened up the pax tourny, That is all.

dreztina.4820:

I don’t accept what he said as an excuse for the state of the game. Basically his post can be summed up by ‘things take longer than you may want’. Fine. OK. So you can’t work as quickly as we would like you to. What does that have to do with the constant incorrect decisions being made?

Aza.2105:

Arganthium.5638:

Aza.2105:

Arganthium.5638:

I don’t think they have those spreadsheets.

Why? Because I’ve developed those same spreadsheets that you’re talking about and, even if they have developed them, I also know the limitations of those spreadsheets, and just how far their usefulness extends. I also know from experience that it takes quite the bit of creativity to even come up with the base idea for the spreadsheets. Either way, I (attempted) to send Allie my spreadsheets the a few days. I still have yet to get a response.

Yeah I’m sure it does take creativity.

Curious to know about the spreadsheets you made btw.

Well, what do you want to know?

Just a summary.

Basically, I look at different stats and compare how they increase the amount of damage you do or how long you can survive relative to base- in other words, if I have 100 power, I might do 10% more damage than if I was just a thief with normal armor but no traits, runes, ammies, etc.

I mean, that’s the general gist of it.

Darnis.4056:

Anyone else notice this is 3 weeks from now?………
It sounds like a great idea but.. 3 weeks?…I think the pvp community needs help in the immediate future….

This was my first reaction, but remember that since this is community-organized, and we want to get a bunch of people on it, that we might prefer to give people a bit of time to get ready for it.

Aza.2105:

Arganthium.5638:

I don’t think they have those spreadsheets.

Why? Because I’ve developed those same spreadsheets that you’re talking about and, even if they have developed them, I also know the limitations of those spreadsheets, and just how far their usefulness extends. I also know from experience that it takes quite the bit of creativity to even come up with the base idea for the spreadsheets. Either way, I (attempted) to send Allie my spreadsheets the a few days. I still have yet to get a response.

Yeah I’m sure it does take creativity.

Curious to know about the spreadsheets you made btw.

Well, what do you want to know?

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

butch.8136:

But hey, they can show the world that they had a 10k tournament.

Especially when 1 year after GW1 launch, they hosted a 100 000 dollar tournament.

*10,000

I don’t think they have those spreadsheets.

Why? Because I’ve developed those same spreadsheets that you’re talking about and, even if they have developed them, I also know the limitations of those spreadsheets, and just how far their usefulness extends. I also know from experience that it takes quite the bit of creativity to even come up with the base idea for the spreadsheets. Either way, I (attempted) to send Allie my spreadsheets the a few days. I still have yet to get a response.

I would be willing to voice my opinion on this show.

Thank you for hosting it; I don’t think that ANet realizes the state of their own game. I just watched Countless’ vid about PAX, and I fully agree with him about everything (something rare for me with other players in this game).

I’m so ridiculously upset with the current State of the Game right now, and I’m going to have to agree with Kinjax that what this game needs desperately right now is something like this, a community get-together for us to voice out ideas and opinions.

Poxxia.1547:

First: Thx for giving me the credibility of the doubt.
He chose his words incredibly unfortunate … as we say in my part of Denmark. That much I can say. I pride myself of giving people the benefit of the doubt, but even if I disagree with your PoV on S/D-thieves, that is not a constructive approach he just demonstrated.
Even more: I can’t seem the reason behind having a class, that only a very few exceptionally good players are able to play or just survive with.
I read your post about S/D some time ago, but I think I need to re-read it. I disagree with your view about them being balanced, but I do perhaps owe you a more in depth reply, but I don’t have the time to do so atm or in the near future :’( … rl is going nuts with work and family-issues.

Thank you for your understanding.

As you said, whether or not you stand on one side of the issue or the other, it’s simply unacceptable that a high-level player, streaming on the most consistently watched Guild Wars 2 stream, went into such a ridiculous rage for virtually no reason like that.

Also, it’s fine if you can’t go into depth with me about S/D- I’m not going to completely flame you for it. xD neither you nor anybody else owes me anything in this game, and, of course, IRL > GW2. Speaking of which- good luck with any of your RL issues, that’s unfortunate.