Guild Wars 2

PvE Builds

~D/D~

Hybrid Crit/Condition Build (Mandraecgore)

~S/P~

10/30/0/0/30 S/P Burst/High-Damage PvE Build (Amadeus)

Queen’s Jubilee- 0/30/0/30/10 S/P, S/P Build, Deadeye Farming (Heizero)

0/30/0/20/20 D/P, D/D Aggression (Emissary)

~Guides~

Guide of Shadows: The Thief Handbook (Geiir) (NEW PLAYERS GO HERE!!! Great guide)

Thief forum Build Thread

Yishi’s “Outnumbered” Commentaries

GW2DB’s Compendium of Thief Builds

Silver’s Guide to Thief Leveling

Dungeon Meta Guide

~Tricks~

How to Withdraw forward (Menzies the Heretic)

[Work in progress, any additional links would be much appreciated]

Geotherma.2395:

Arganthium.5638:

Geotherma.2395:

rgrwng.4072:

can’t we repurchase the trait books for 2 gold each? and then just keep a stack of them?

The books are 10X more expensive than the NPC who resets traits. The Gem item would need to be fairly cheap to work, and it would work with any level for the same price. Or possibly come in stacks.

On a side note don’t ever spend 2g on the books as the NPC is much cheaper lol.. I think the max cost of the NPC who resets is something like 14s, but I’d have to check.

I’ve always had to spend only 3.50 silver for trait reset. Never any more or less. 0_o

And 10x is an under exaggeration. Given a cost of 3.50s, that would mean that Grandmaster trait books cost 57.143 times more than the standard NPC retrainer does.

Sorry I didn’t feel like doing the math lol, yes was an exaggeration..

And if you are 80 then 3.5 could be the max, I have a bad memory so I didn’t recall what the price was at the time.

Haha yeah, it wasn’t entirely necessary. Fair enough. xD

I think that you have to pay a certain set amount for each trait point that you’re resetting (like 5c each or whatever). That would also explain why I’ve retrained, accidentally put in some points into some trait line, and removed them again for a cheaper price that would also happen to follow this equation.

Geotherma.2395:

rgrwng.4072:

can’t we repurchase the trait books for 2 gold each? and then just keep a stack of them?

The books are 10X more expensive than the NPC who resets traits. The Gem item would need to be fairly cheap to work, and it would work with any level for the same price. Or possibly come in stacks.

On a side note don’t ever spend 2g on the books as the NPC is much cheaper lol.. I think the max cost of the NPC who resets is something like 14s, but I’d have to check.

I’ve always had to spend only 3.50 silver for trait reset. Never any more or less. 0_o

And 10x is an under exaggeration. Given a cost of 3.50s, that would mean that Grandmaster trait books cost 57.143 times more than the standard NPC retrainer does.

Amun Ra.6435:

Arganthium.5638:

Amun Ra.6435:

Arganthium.5638:

Amun Ra.6435:

Arganthium.5638:

And hey, who are you to say that everybody should prefer to get their ectos ASAP than to save a little extra money in return for slightly more waiting time?.

And you are you? And you say “And who are you?!?!” and I say Who…well you get the point…everyone is entitled to their opinion.

K. Brah. Do u even macroeconomics? Fite me irl.

Kidding aside, if everyone is entitled to their own opinion, then why is your opinion of “oh… well… those people are wrong for wanting to save 20c” more valid than theirs?

You can keep trying one way or another to put words in my mouth but the fact of the matter is, if you can read and a decent lvl of reading comprehension, I said " I find it highly unlikely" never they are wrong or right in any way, shape or form.

/sigh

Ok, why is it highly unlikely? Because it just is? Because you have statistical analysis to guard your back on this one? Or because you personally believe that people should not be spending 20c less for ectos (making them wrong)? Because, from your posts, I believe that you’re arguing the last point.

Amun Ra.6435:

I find it highly unlikely that a player would not buy an item, no matter what item, for a mere 20c…

This is common in criminal cases where a person or group of persons buy and sell stock at close to the same price…AKA: Market Manipulation. This is not a conspiracy theory.

… Yeah.

Also, please try to at least keep inflammatory remarks on topic, not the “do u evn hav a dcnt lvl of reding man” kind of stuff.

./sigh Fine..I am going to give you this…take advantage or it…

You Started It!

I believe that is what you were trying to get out of me.

No, I just wanted to calmly settle this “conspiracy”- one of the many that this forum has seen.

Amun Ra.6435:

Arganthium.5638:

Yep, definitely another conspiracy theorist.

Y’know, there’s this thing called “market equilibrium”… Look it up. What you’re seeing with ectos is that, due to the large supply of ectos, suppliers and buyers have slowly crept towards an equilibrium price where the quantity demanded approximately equals the quantity supplied, and the bidding price for ectos is nearly the same as the selling price. That said, there are still many reasons why a person might prefer to buy at a mere 20c cheaper. For one thing, maybe they placed their order a while ago when the price was higher, and they haven’t chosen to remove it quite yet. Or maybe they’re trying to get a legendary, and want to save every coin they possibly can in doing so. By a hundred ectos at 20 c less- that’s saving 20 silver right there, which, IMHO, isn’t bad.

And hey, who are you to say that everybody should prefer to get their ectos ASAP than to save a little extra money in return for slightly more waiting time? I know that whenever I get ectos, I just find it easier to sell on the spot- but that’s just relative to my personal opportunity costs. On the other hand, there are people that would be willing to get a little extra coin in return for that slightly extra time. It all balances out.

“Market manipulation” or “Market Equilibrium”, no one here can neither prove me wrong or prove me right…correct?

Well, you’re the one with the burden of proof on you. If you’re going to yell “conspiracy!”, then show us why it’s a conspiracy. Give us evidence that would explain motivations for this “conspiracy” to be occurring, its negative effects on the economy, etc, etc.

On the other hand, I can give you plenty of evidence for why the market would seem to be in equilibrium. For one thing, the number of buy and sell orders on the TP is absolutely insane for ectos. By selling items so quickly and (relatively) cheaply, both buyers and suppliers can quickly and easily determine what a good price and quantity supplied for ectos should be. Also, if you look at the history of ectos on the market, from my experience, it tends to experience periods of fluctuation where selling prices will jump up while buying prices jump up as well, although only by a little, but very quickly, these two prices converge again and model a market in equilibrium.

This also explains why markets on, say, T1 items seem to follow this pattern. Because T1 materials are easy to get, and highly demanded (esp. by newer players), then we can determine that these prices are going to go to equilibrium very quickly. These T1 mats aren’t very flexible with their prices- you won’t see a T1 mat go from 20c to 1+s very quickly. And, because of the huge demand and supply of them, suppliers and buyers will quickly be able to agree on prices and quantities that match one another after a massive number of TP trades.

Other items- dyes particularly- don’t have high demand or supply for them (relatively speaking). Thus, the price difference between buy orders and sell orders is, often, massive. I’ve been able to play dye markets to make as much as 20s profit for a single trade, and, at a minimum, about 5s (usually, with the cheapest dyes). Because of the limited supply and demand for these items, fewer trades go on within the realm of dyes, and thus prices and quantities are not yet quite in equilibrium for these dyes, which allows me to use the market for dyes to make a decent buck.

Amun Ra.6435:

Arganthium.5638:

Amun Ra.6435:

Arganthium.5638:

And hey, who are you to say that everybody should prefer to get their ectos ASAP than to save a little extra money in return for slightly more waiting time?.

And you are you? And you say “And who are you?!?!” and I say Who…well you get the point…everyone is entitled to their opinion.

K. Brah. Do u even macroeconomics? Fite me irl.

Kidding aside, if everyone is entitled to their own opinion, then why is your opinion of “oh… well… those people are wrong for wanting to save 20c” more valid than theirs?

You can keep trying one way or another to put words in my mouth but the fact of the matter is, if you can read and a decent lvl of reading comprehension, I said " I find it highly unlikely" never they are wrong or right in any way, shape or form.

/sigh

Ok, why is it highly unlikely? Because it just is? Because you have statistical analysis to guard your back on this one? Or because you personally believe that people should not be spending 20c less for ectos (making them wrong)? Because, from your posts, I believe that you’re arguing the last point.

Amun Ra.6435:

I find it highly unlikely that a player would not buy an item, no matter what item, for a mere 20c…

This is common in criminal cases where a person or group of persons buy and sell stock at close to the same price…AKA: Market Manipulation. This is not a conspiracy theory.

… Yeah.

Also, please try to at least keep inflammatory remarks on topic, not the “do u evn hav a dcnt lvl of reding man” kind of stuff.

IamDuddits.1692:

swiftpaw.6397:

Simple: Don’t trust pugs.
Always open the dungeon yourself.
Problem solved.

True, but this should still be removed outright. It breaks immersion, it forces the other 4 players to carry someone that is too lazy to level their character, and it’s redundant (if you want easy mode leveling then use crafting).

^

I agree that you shouldn’t trust pugs, morons, or Thieves (they always seem to Backstab you later on… c; ), but it still doesn’t make sense to have this mechanic in the first place.

Geotherma.2395:

I just wanna say that I flooded the market with like… a TON of ectos when I did that salvage test lol.. Because there was another 200 salvages after the 800 I already did. Sorry about that..

On the bright side, the extra supply could possibly have made ectos cheaper for buyers like me c; (although, given the insane volume of ectos on the market, probably not by much, if at all. :/ )

Amun Ra.6435:

Arganthium.5638:

And hey, who are you to say that everybody should prefer to get their ectos ASAP than to save a little extra money in return for slightly more waiting time?.

And you are you? And you say “And who are you?!?!” and I say Who…well you get the point…everyone is entitled to their opinion.

K. Brah. Do u even macroeconomics? Fite me irl.

Kidding aside, if everyone is entitled to their own opinion, then why is your opinion of “oh… well… those people are wrong for wanting to save 20c” more valid than theirs?

Yep, definitely another conspiracy theorist.

Y’know, there’s this thing called “market equilibrium”… Look it up. What you’re seeing with ectos is that, due to the large supply of ectos, suppliers and buyers have slowly crept towards an equilibrium price where the quantity demanded approximately equals the quantity supplied, and the bidding price for ectos is nearly the same as the selling price. That said, there are still many reasons why a person might prefer to buy at a mere 20c cheaper. For one thing, maybe they placed their order a while ago when the price was higher, and they haven’t chosen to remove it quite yet. Or maybe they’re trying to get a legendary, and want to save every coin they possibly can in doing so. By a hundred ectos at 20 c less- that’s saving 20 silver right there, which, IMHO, isn’t bad.

And hey, who are you to say that everybody should prefer to get their ectos ASAP than to save a little extra money in return for slightly more waiting time? I know that whenever I get ectos, I just find it easier to sell on the spot- but that’s just relative to my personal opportunity costs. On the other hand, there are people that would be willing to get a little extra coin in return for that slightly extra time. It all balances out.

Btw, Authority, after you write your blog post, could you put a link to it on this thread? I’d be very interested in taking a look at it.

Authority.6145:

I want to use your initial post for my blog because it has inspired me to write about a topic. Is that alright with you Arganthium?

Of course, sounds great.

scooby treat.8420:

style.6173:

sigh a really bad idea. Let’s also get rid of differences in weapons and armor. Oh wait, we have that in sPvP.

The LAST thing we need is the removal of more strategy related to WvW. Yes nourishment is strategy. A lot of players switch foods throughout the day, just the way you switch utility skills.

you should be playing on your build not on the food.

Your build includes the food.

Just because it goes under the name “food”/“nourishment” does not make it any different from, say, weapons and armor, and we wouldn’t say that the stats you have on your weapons and armor are separate from your build, would we?

Numbers, numbers everywhere.

Good build, I like it. I couldn’t see the link to the build, unfortunately. I’d have to agree with Drawing, though. Signet of Shadows is obviously very nice, and if you’re playing, say, WvW, you’ll have plenty of time to switch it in and out between fights, but for skirmishes, you’ll want signet of agility, it works so much more fluidly with this build.

Professor Sensei.2941:

2. You play a 30/30/X D/D full Zerker Gear thief

………I play 100% glass. I go in 1vX all the time. I leave healthy all the time. My cluster bombs hit people on walls for 3~8K dmg. My backstabs are insane. I can heal past anything but a zerk warrior who gets lucky on his kill shot.

Obviously, you don’t play 100% glass if you have such great healing ability. c:

That said, I know that there are some good 30/30/X GC thieves out there. I put this up as a reason, however, because I feel like the thieves that always tend to do worst are GC thieves who have no idea what they’re doing. A good GC thief, on the other hand, could very well win most matches easily, I don’t doubt that. I just think that the build is overhyped by our profession and other professions.

I think that, after a great deal of reading posts on this forum, I have reached an inevitable conclusion: ANet is seeking to tax the living daylights out of us on the Trading Post. And they must be stopped.

See, the 15% tax on the Trading Post is a absolutely meaningless, worthless device. I mean, what does it do? Imagine this: what if you had a hundred ectos, just sitting in your bank, and, suddenly, ANet decided to get rid of the tax? Imagine how much the price of ectos would skyrocket! Everybody would have so much extra money that they suppliers would be able to afford to make their prices higher. You could suddenly be selling off your ectos for over 100G! And without tax, too!

(Psst, little hint: make sure to empty your bank accounts and your pockets before you do that! Buy as many ectos and other mats as possible.)

Imagine where that tax money is going, too. Straight into the pockets of ANet’s employees, I bet! I bet John Smith has hundreds of millions of gold just sitting in his bank account, and he’s laughing his kitten off at us at the mere idea of us scrambling to get legendaries! I mean- right?!

And what about drop rates? I mean, why can’t the Inquest drop, like, 1G? Or Sparkflies, or other easy enemies, like mosquitos, bandits, and elementalists? Imagine all of the money that we would have to spend on the Trading Post!

We should all meet in Lion’s Arch and destroy the Trading Post headquarters.
Next Monday. Be there.

(This is obviously complete satire. If you’re reading this and you’re one of the people opposing the TP tax, let me put it to you this way: even if you sold all of your ectos for 1G each, by the time you picked it up from the TP and were able to spend it again, the price of individual ectos would have increased tenfold, and your money would be virtually worthless due to the fact that everybody had so much money that they would have to raise prices on all of the things in the economy to make up for the massive amount of money, and the continuously increasing supply of money. That’s hyperinflation for you guys. c; so be glad that there’s a TP tax, because it’s hugely important in reducing inflation.)

Ensign.2189:

Arganthium.5638:

For BL I got a slightly different margin of error (+/- .09744) at 95% Confidence. I’ll check my math again, though.

How are you weighing the data sets? I’m using inverse square standard error weights. I’m a little concerned about the unbiased estimator being a bit low on low average ecto rolls due to the skewness of the underlying distribution (still thinking on that), but it shouldn’t make a big difference.

There are certainly other ways to do a joint distribution estimate when the sample size is known; I just did it this way because I’m very familiar with the methodology from a lot of other work I’ve done and know it’s pretty robust.

Also, I should mention I’ve cranked up the error bounds on Syeria’s data in my model because I’m not 100% on the variance numbers; all it did was kick up the uncertainty a bit.

Oh. Let’s just say, then, that I don’t have nearly as much experience in this field as you do. :P I’m just a young, naive stats student, don’t mind me. :P

However, what I’m interested in knowing is whether the three conditions for inference were fulfilled, that is

1. Independence
2. SRS
3. Normality

With 10n<=N, 1 is fulfilled.

With n > 30, 3 is also fulfilled.

What about 2 though? Do some rares drop ectos, while others don’t? Or do they all follow the same distribution for ectos drops? It’d be interesting to know.

Ensign.2189:

Updated bounds with Geotherma’s 2nd set of data (600 points total):

Black Lion Kit: 1.241 +/- 0.084
Master Kit: 0.891 +/- 0.066

Both at 95% confidence.

For BL I got a slightly different margin of error (+/- .09744) at 95% Confidence. I’ll check my math again, though.

Either way, the difference of approximately .013 is pretty insignificant, so I’d agree with that one. I’ll be doing the Master Kits next.

I’m laughing at the people who claimed that the sample size was “too small” so hard right now.

Here, I’ll link a few builds here to help you with your needs:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlcmaOHfS6E95Ex2jdKUeypooG1TBYJLA

This is a build that I run fairly often. It’ll give you a fair amount of survivability while also giving you some pretty sweet bursting. It’s also fairly flexible (for the 20 in Trickery, if you really want to be versatile, you can switch out either of the major traits for “Trickster”. Before you go into battle, anticipate what you’re going to need on your utility bar, and with this trait it makes things a heck of a lot easier for you to use those utilities. However, note that this is better suited for WvW and not PvP). Basically, you’re going to Infiltrator’s Strike + Pistol Whip as much as possible to stun opponents and lay heavy damage on them. The issue here is that you’re going to find that this build is somewhat lacking in the excitement aspect that you often find with thieves. It also doesn’t burst quite as well as D/whatever (but has far better survivability). However, it is a fairly trustworthy and reliable build, that aside.

Other utilities that you can have with this build are Shadow Refuge, any of the Signets, Haste/Scorpion Wire (best if you take Trickery, however), Ambush, and, of course, Hide in Shadows.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYVlUmaPHfS6E95Ey2jdqCJKuHFFS1UdFwKA

This is going to be your more typical Backstab build. This particular one focuses more on the survivability aspect of the build, while ditching other options for more damage. The one main problem that this build has is that it has virtually no init regeneration, so you might want to factor that in before you play this build. IMHO, init is the lifeblood of the thief. However, for this build, it might be acceptable not to have any (or much), due to the fact that you’ll be Backstabbing a lot. A lot. Like, a lot a lot.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlcmaOHfS6E95EBniiaUPFfFsdPuqV1KA

Finally, I’ve thrown in this one because it might help you transition from a necro to a thief more easily. It’s the build that I use currently. It focuses on mitigation, tactical shots, and survivability. In exchange, this build is going to be a lot more passive aggressive, meaning that you might not get the same bursting that you get from more typical thieves. That being said, it still has nice access to a lot of the same stuff that you might get from the other thief builds, as well. You still have access to Backstab, for instance (which is made more accessible if you use Hide in the Shadows instead of Signet of Malice, which is a great option for you to choose). It gives you access to mountains of Heartseekers with its faster initiative regeneration and Shadow Shot. It gives you plenty of interrupts and blinds. It also will keep you alive a lot longer than, say, a D/D Backstab build, due to the fact that you’re getting more dodges and initiative regen (which is particularly useful for things like Infiltrator’s Arrow, which you might find yourself using often). The only real downside that I see to this particular build is its lack of high damage output. It’s really great for stomping players, but when they’re still up, it’s often going to be more preferable to use a SB and weaken them until they reach less than 50% health or so, which then gives you high damage output through spamming Heartseeker. However, due to its nature, PvP makes a great battleground for a build like this because you can access gear that allows you to increase damage output for free (Berserker’s Amulet, especially). So if you’re looking for a really survivable build for regular PvP that has great sustainable damage, this would be my suggestion.

Good luck!

I’d say a 1v1 with a guardian. Especially the ultra-nooby bunkers that will never, ever die. Those are a pain.

Anything else… Against other thieves/ D/D eles, it’s more of a “well I’m going to be abusing my mobility a ton” kind of situation for me.

Could you post a link to your build from a build editing website, please? Makes things a lot easier. c:

Iove.3902:

I like how the OP talks defense like we have any. Sure we have stealth and mobility, but those are getting nerfed soon, so we’ll need some actual armor buffs.

I’m not sure what your source for the nerf’ing parts are. Stealth and mobility are just two examples of defensive mechanisms that we have. Under the umbrella of “mobility” we have some of the best teleportation skills in the game, high speed, and tons of evades. Stealth, on the other hand, is only really particularly useful from a defensive standpoint as either a way to insert yourself into battle or extract yourself from it. Otherwise, unless you’re running a P/D or D/D build, it’s virtually unsustainable when you’re actually in combat, and even with those two builds, it doesn’t give you much room for dealing damage, if you’re planning on not taking the Revealed debuff.

Outside of that, I’m guessing you’re just another masochistic, stereotypical D/D thief that thinks of himself/herself as a complete ninja- that is, until you find yourself Downed again.

(sigh) did you come here to have a constructive discussion, or just to complain? If you really, truly hate the thief’s underwater skills, go play a different profession. If the tactical and strategic complexities underlying a successful thief are bad for you, go play a different profession. If you’re going to say things like

I also notice you’ve only talked about speargun skills… I’ll take that to mean you agree that spear is rubbish…

Again.. ink shot is rubbish…

I’ve never once been beaten by a thief under water on any of my other toons. I’ll purposefully jump into water because I know how HORRID they really are under water.

then I’m beginning to think that you didn’t understand the point of this post. I wrote this to tell thieves why they aren’t being successful with the profession, and, so far, I’d say that you’ve neglected reasons 9, 7, and 5, and possibly others as well. I’m here for constructive discussion that I hope will turn people away from thieves not because thieves are bad, but because thieves don’t match up with their style of play.

As a favor, please leave this thread and the Thief forum if all you are here for is describing the thief as a “rubbish” profession in any way, shape, or form. Go to the Guardian forum, or any of the other forums that dictate that they are absolutely 100% superior to thieves. In the meantime, I’ll likely be writing a post soon on an analysis of the thief’s underwater combat skills.

Aberrant.6749:

Puru.4217:

Mesmer is probably the only class i’d say to be stronger than thieves underwater atm (unless your a condition based thief and i agree it’s aweful if you are one), by far. Maybe ranger cause they can’t really die anyway.

I agree they did a bad job with utility skills choice for thief though, it’s really limited atm.

Also if you’re in wvw and you see a pool of water, it’s a good bet to run away there since for the very first time of your thief life, you really are the master of mobility and by far, withdraw + ink shot + roll of ini = you can’t get caught, they can’t escape. Also everyone is scared of water so they might not even follow you, hilarous.

Guardian > Thief under water… by a mile and a half.

As some one said earlier… thief primarily uses stealth for their defense… underwater we have diddly squat access to stealth. I’ve never once been beaten by a thief under water on any of my other toons. I’ll purposefully jump into water because I know how HORRID they really are under water.

I can withdraw + roll + escape to run away… but running =/= fighting.

I still can almost outswim inkshot… >.>

Er… Read Reason #9 on my post. To think that thieves rely solely on stealth for defense is absurd. There’s a lot more to def than just “ermahgerd infernert sterth”, and, if you think there isn’t, then as a thief you’re probably either dying a lot or dealing virtually 0 dps. You need to make the most out of your evades (which, depending on your traits, can do a ton, including gaining a stack of might, removing weakness and cripple, spreading caltrops, and adding more endurance for future evades too).

If you’re jumping into water with the mindset “Ha, silly thieves, what are you going to do now?”, then you’re probably making another mistake. For one thing, when you’re in the water on WvW, and most PvP maps (excluding the obvious Raid on the Capricorn), you can’t capture any objectives. You’re going to have to leave the water eventually in order to do something, y’know, useful for your team. It kinda reminds me of something from the Halo series, actually (read the books a lot when I was younger). One of the things that they stated in one of the books is, basically, that the humans could easily win battles on the ground, but end up getting crushed from space. If you’re good in the water, that doesn’t make up for being bad on land.

Also, as Puru stated- we have pretty great mobility underwater. The harpoon gun has an absolutely fantastic evade built in with it, and ink shot… This isn’t used so much as a damage skill as it is a tactical skill. Simply, shoot off your ink shot in some direction on the flanks of your opponent, keep attacking your opponent, and then, when convenient (or when the shot goes far enough), you Shadowstep and disrupt your opponent with the sudden change in direction. Swim over him/her then, and your opponent starts to get confused as to where you are. I can tell you that guardians don’t have nearly that much mobility.

Finally, you’re right that running =/= fighting. However, note that running often can lead to traps that end up leading you to unwittingly giving your opponent an environmental advantage, which is especially likely when you’re in water because in water you have to worry about three different directions, all of which are easily accessible (z-axis is accessible on land, but only when you’re on high ground or the like. That’s not always going to be the case). Finding yourself getting attacked from above by a thief is not going to be a fun experience. There’s also the fact that now you have to worry about land, too. Most water battles are going to take place in areas right next to land, simply because, in GW2, land happens to be a much simpler and graceful battleground than water, where the three directions are going to have to be combined with crude tactics in order to rip apart opponents. Thus, if you find yourself in an underwater battle with any class, the moment they get out of the water and start firing on you from land, you’re going to start taking heavy damage without being able to do much in return. For a thief, with such great mobility, it’s easy to get back onto land. For a bunker guardian that can’t run without going into cardiac arrest, it’s going to be rather difficult.

Can you win underwater easily against thieves? Sure, but that’s assuming that the thief has limited tactical knowledge.

Puru.4217:

Mesmer is probably the only class i’d say to be stronger than thieves underwater atm (unless your a condition based thief and i agree it’s aweful if you are one), by far. Maybe ranger cause they can’t really die anyway.

I agree they did a bad job with utility skills choice for thief though, it’s really limited atm.

Also if you’re in wvw and you see a pool of water, it’s a good bet to run away there since for the very first time of your thief life, you really are the master of mobility and by far, withdraw + ink shot + roll of ini = you can’t get caught, they can’t escape. Also everyone is scared of water so they might not even follow you, hilarous.

I don’t know that I’d say “strongest”, but I’d definitely call them undervalued. Playing PvP on RotC today, I dealt some pretty nice damage with my harpoon gun underwater, and the mobility is pretty fantastic (although the lack of shadowsteps that you get when you’re on land as compared to water has always bothered me).

Utilities- I’d agree with that. Like you said, only venom builds have any real viability when you’re underwater, and, not to hate on them too much, but, personally, I’ve always found them to be a bit too passive and, overall, weak. The other option, however, is to indeed use signets. Two of my main builds focus on a lot of signet and deception skill usage (both are S/P builds with one being 0/30/20/0/20 and the other has 0/20/20/15/15). Of course, you can’t use any of the deception skills underwater, but the signets- those you can use. Whenever I run either of those two builds, then, I spec specifically for signets, because I can use them to gain tons of initiative (the lifeblood of the thief) as well as instant might stacks.

Taril.8619:

Arganthium.5638:

Meh. It’s nice on a ranger or a mes. From my experience w/ a thief, you can do a lot of damage with the harpoon gun. Either way, most combat takes place on land anyways so.

I actually like underwater combat on my Necromancer, it’s fluid and rather powerful (Weapon skills for Necro are pretty amazing and also every utility has it’s cast time reduced by ~1 second)

My thief though? Nope.
Cannot stand underwater on my thief…. “Oh you’re entire class’s survivability is based around stealth? Lets give you access to only one stealth while underwater!”… Ugh…

In WvWvW, if anyone jumps into the water (Even if they’re at like 5% health) I just leave them… Not worth it to try and put up with the awful underwater combat a thief has access to (Doesn’t help that I’m a condition + stealth build, meaning there’s no synergy with anything underwater)

1. See Reason #9.
2. Necro underwater is decent. Not my favorite though.
3. I’m sorry you think that way. Today I was playing PvP and I mauled multiple opponents with my thief underwater. I’m pretty sure that the only reason that you would want to live an opponent like that is because you’re trying to cap an objective. Otherwise… I mean, even if your opponent can do twice as much damage to you underwater as you can do to them, the fact that their health is at 5% will make them panic, which you can (and should!) take advantage of.

Aberrant.6749:

Arganthium.5638:

Aberrant.6749:

Arganthium.5638:

Aberrant.6749:

11. You like being able to use more than 1/3rd your normal utilities in underwater combat….

Because everybody loves underwater combat. [/sarcasm]

I enjoy it far more on all my other characters tbh… but thief underwater is just super sad. T.T

Meh. It’s nice on a ranger or a mes. From my experience w/ a thief, you can do a lot of damage with the harpoon gun. Either way, most combat takes place on land anyways so.

On thief you’re basically reduced to being a P/P unload spam thief… with less options for utilities… : /

I avoid fighting in the water near 100% of the time when I’m on my thief. If I’m on my mes I’ll hop into it any time… clones still applying confusion underwater = gg

If you do happen to be that person that wants to be able to fight underwater… thief is not for you…

Not really. It depends on your play style. If you prefer a safer, more ranged style (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing), then sure.

I usually avoid fighting in water 100% of the time on all of my toons. It’s just inconvenient, messy, and tends to be a bit… Odd. And it doesn’t really fit my tactical style either.

Aberrant.6749:

Arganthium.5638:

Aberrant.6749:

11. You like being able to use more than 1/3rd your normal utilities in underwater combat….

Because everybody loves underwater combat. [/sarcasm]

I enjoy it far more on all my other characters tbh… but thief underwater is just super sad. T.T

Meh. It’s nice on a ranger or a mes. From my experience w/ a thief, you can do a lot of damage with the harpoon gun. Either way, most combat takes place on land anyways so.

Aberrant.6749:

11. You like being able to use more than 1/3rd your normal utilities in underwater combat….

Because everybody loves underwater combat. [/sarcasm]

3. You want to be a ninja

If you came to the thief thinking that you were going to Leaping Death Blossom + Stealth + Have 4K DPS + Heartseeker + Teleport constantly, then this isn’t your profession. Do thieves have all of that stuff? Sure. But that doesn’t mean that you can just spam those abilities and expect to survive.

2. You play a 30/30/X D/D full Zerker Gear thief

Maybe I’m just missing something, but I see these guys all. The. Time. These are the guys that you see in super-edited YouTube videos that are bursting down their Level 5 opponents in WvW practically instantaneously and doing insane amounts of damage. Unfortunately, the parts that are edited out tend to include the times where those thieves get stomped, then Waypoint, then go into battle again, get stomped, and rinse and repeat all day long.

1. Thieves just aren’t the class for you

Thieves aren’t for everyone. For one thing, they have pretty awful range. They have only two really good long-range options: Scorpion Wire and Cluster Bomb. Of course, Scorpion Wire relies on the fact that you have a sweet Close-Quarters Combat build on you that you can use to crush your opponent fairly quickly, given that they’re likely to be very confused by the sudden change in environments. On the other hand, Cluster Bomb is powerful, but it’s not an auto attack, and the projectile for it moves mind-numbingly slowly. Outside of that, if you want something with 1200+ range, you’re going to have to look at a combination like Shadowstep -> Infiltator’s Strike -> Pistol Whip/etc., with maybe an Infiltrator’s Arrow thrown in there, but those combinations rely on the fact that you’re not going to be teleporting right into the heart of battle, which is quite likely to be the case if you’re in, for example, WvW. If you want something with good range, look at any one of the three Scholar professions, Rangers, or even Engineers.

Maybe you enjoy the front-line capacity of soldier professions. If that’s the case, then thieves aren’t for you; typically, if there are two very distinct enemy armies, then they’ll find themselves right behind the front line (using the SB and often using Scorpion Wire), or on the flanks, weakening opponents and picking off others. If there are two armies that have collided together, and now there’s blood and bodies and projectiles and whatnot flying everywhere, thieves will make a great choice for you, however.

There are 8 different professions, and they all have their pros and cons. So please, if you’re going to whine about your thief, think before you make yourself look silly, and consider choosing another profession.

6. You haven’t found a good build to fit your play style

Ok, I would not be surprised if this is a problem that a lot of thieves face. GW2 is constantly evolving; people are discovering new builds to counter other builds, then those builds are being countered, and then those builds- you might find yourself getting extremely frustrated after a while, simply due to the sheer complexity of this phenomenon. I’ve played a thief almost since GW2 came out, and I still have not found a build that I really, truly like. I’ve begun to start getting closer and closer, though. I’ve run a lot of different S/P builds, for example. My two main choices for that have been 0/30/20/0/20 (for overall great damage over a short period of time) and 0/20/20/15/15 (a variant on the previous build that gives you more mobility and survivability in exchange for high damage). Take a while to look through as many builds as you can. Maybe make your own builds. Don’t be afraid to give up on a build if it looks unsuccessful.

5. You don’t understand how to fight other professions

This is probably a problem that every profession faces. Rather than giving you the full description, I’ll refer you to Lowell’s guid for PvP thieves. It has some pretty good advice for fighting each of the other professions. On the downside, it is slightly dated, given the evolution of this game, so your best shot might be to simply gain experience playing against other professions, or even playing as the other professions.

Link to Lowell’s guide:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/45902-lowells-ultimate-spvp-thief-guide-wip/

4. You think that thieves make awful support classes

This tends to be something that people complain about when they define a “support class” as one that gives boons to all of its teammates, but could never survive a 1v1 on its own. Rather than going into detail about how this is misleading, I’ll just give you some reasons why thieves can make a good support class.

For one thing, thieves are irrefutably the class with the highest mobility in the game. We have teleports all over the place, tons of ways to boost our speed, and a great capacity to evade often. Thus, we are able to insert and extract ourselves from skirmishes in the blink of an eye. Use this to your advantage. If you see a teammate struggling to fight a bunker guardian, go help him or her out! Burst the guardian for a few seconds with (for example) the S/P Infiltrator’s Strike + Pistol Whip, add a few more bursts in there, then use Shadow Return and find somebody else to fight. I promise you that this will drive other professions completely insane.

Or maybe you and your party can work out a strategy where they will just damage as much stuff as possible, and then you can be the clean-up crew for them, wiping out enemies with moves like Heartseeker or Pistol Whip w/ the Executioner Grandmaster Trait.

Another idea: did your friend just get Downed? Maybe they were killed in an enemy-heavy zone. Use Hide In Shadows, Blinding Power, and then lay down Shadow Refuge with a 20 in Shadow Arts to get them up and fighting again.

One last thought: you know how annoying it is to fight entire mobs? Even if you have great AoE, it can be a real pain in the kitten, especially when you’re fighting higher-level hordes, like the Risen. Thieves specialize in 1v1, though, so make the most out of that. Find somebody who looks like maybe they’re causing a bit of trouble, and take them out. Reducing the size of the swarm one by one will make things surprisingly easier for your allies.

[Reserved]

Personally, I believe that Thieves are the most controversial class in the game. I mean, I can’t go a minute on this forum without reading one thread stating why thieves are OP and then seeing a thread right after that talking about how utterly weak thieves are. I’m making this thread is for all of the people whining about how horrible their thieves are.

10. You think that “thief” and “survivability” are antonyms

This is one that I see a lot. In my experience, far too many people think of the thief as a bit of a glass cannon profession, dealing out tons of damage in little or no time and being the biggest baller on the field. While that can be true, if you find that you’re the kind of person with this mindset, and you find yourself dying almost instantly, then you’re probably doing something wrong.

A good thief has access to a wide range of Stealthing and Shadowstepping tools that allow them to move in and out of battle fluidly, survive heavy damage, rez teammates, and deal sustainable damage. If you’re going to run a build like this, then you really need to know what you’re doing. It’s high risk, and often for little reward.

If you’re really interested in dealing decent damage, look for good ways to incorporate survivability with it. Maybe go for some traits in Acrobatics to get might buffs and a buff for having less than 100% endurance. Maybe look into Shadow Arts to get some good stealth and health regen before you decide to Backstab your opponent. Do that sort of thing.

9. You think that “stealth” and “survivability” are synonyms

On the flip side, you have the thieves that think that, if they have tons and tons of stealth, they will survive forever without ever taking any damage. While this is probably truer than the mindset listed in Reason #10, it still suffers from a few misconceptions. For one thing, there’s the Revealed debuff that you get whenever you leave stealth by damaging an opponent. Some people hate on it for being too short. Personally, I think that the amount of time that it keeps you from being in stealth is perfectly appropriate; it’s enough time for a n00by D/D Backstab thief to be taught a lesson in how not to live.

To make the best use out of stealth for survivability, you need to combine it with other aspects of surviving as long as possible. Toughness and Healing Power are still important concepts to keep in mind. Evading attacks often is important, too. Shadowsteps are very useful when you’re stunned, facing conditions, or just need that extra mobility.

Also keep in mind: no matter how much toughness, health per second, etc that your thief has, a thief that deals no damage is a dead thief. Seriously. Don’t read this post and decide to play a 0/0/30/20/20 build that focuses on spreading Caltrops everywhere and having fantastic stealth, toughness, hps, etc and expect to be mass-murdering opponents while remaining invincible. Eventually, you’ll make a mistake, be caught out in the open, and will find yourself getting slaughtered by the enemy. Case in point: if you don’t deal any decent damage, you’re going to find that, no matter how survivable you think you are, you’re still going to get destroyed. You also want to put some pressure on your enemies in order to sustain your survivability and eventually get them running away. A good thief can turn a small advantage on an enemy into a large one by applying tons of pressure on them.

8. You think that, because you’re a thief, you can take on an entire enemy army

This one’s pretty self-explanatory. Just because you’re a thief, doesn’t mean that you’re going to win every 1v1. It doesn’t mean that you’re going to win every 1v2. In fact, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to have a good chance to win either of those match ups, much less larger match ups. Don’t try to take on entire enemy groups unless you know that you have a big advantage over them. Instead, try to draw them out, split them up, and take them out one by one.

7. You don’t understand the weapon sets that you have at your disposal

I’m pretty sure that about half of the thieves that are whining about the profession right now used to be, say, necromancers, but then got pummeled by a single D/D Backstab thief and decided “hey, since thieves are so good, I think I’m going to play one!”.

Seriously, if I have to watch one more D/D thief get annihilated for having no survivability whatsoever…

Try out new weapon sets. Take the powerful, although somewhat dull, S/P and SB set. Or maybe try out a D/P and SB set that takes a lot of the good stuff from D/D and makes them better. Or maybe you want to learn how to use specific aspects of weapons. For example, the Shortbow. Learn how to use Infiltrator’s Arrow. Learn how to use Cluster Bomb effectively. Whatever.

[Reserved]

Thank you for posting my thoughts about this weapon set.

Seriously, if I have to watch one more insanely n00by D/D thief get the kitten beat out of them because they’re overly aggressive, or just plain stupid… I might just have to go kill somebody.

Like a D/D thief.

First, assuming English isn’t your native language, you speak quite well.

Now, for the TP. Is it easy to use? Is it convenient? Certainly. But it’s not always your best route. Personally, I like crafting my own stuff, because I feel more… Er… “Fulfilled” that way. As if I’ve actually accomplished something. I also like crafting because it’s necessary for forging legendary weapons (I believe), if that’s your thing. It’s also cool to use Transmutation Stones on armor that you’ve made to make some really sweet-looking armor.

Sometimes, however, it’s completely necessary. For example: gathering materials. Seriously, you do not want to be gathering hundreds of globs of ectoplasm by yourself to make the best gear. You’ll kill yourself somewhere along the way.

Another thing is that- especially with specific markets- you won’t want to buy your own weapons and gear. When the highest buying price is, say, 230 silver, and the highest sell price is 300+ silver, then you know the market’s in disequilibrium, and you’d be better off going somewhere else to get your gear.

One last thing: think of it this way. Instead of playing to get loot (items, gold, etc), you’re just playing to get gold. Sometimes, you get gold in different forms; maybe in, say, Crystalline Dust, or Heavy Bones. However, really, all of those things are just the equivalent of gold. Now, the Trading Post allows you to trade that gold (things that you don’t want) for things that you do want (weapons, armor, etc). That makes the game way more fun. It means that you don’t have to spend hundreds of hours just to forge one piece of armor, for example.

And it’s not like you’re cheating or anything. You’re using your gold that you earned to buy items that you want. You’re just trading, is all.

IMO, go with a Sword build for WvW. It’s not quite as heavy on the damage portion as D/D is, but it’s immensely rewarding to be able to shadowstep left and right, while your opponent is completely helpless. It allows for a decent bit of survivability, too, which is important given that enemies can leap right on top of you while you’re in the middle of a battle in WvW- which happens fairly frequently. If you love dealing tons of damage, D/D is probably going to be your thing. But that’s a riskier, less survivable build, IMHO. If you want something still advantageous, although somewhat less rewarding, but far more survivable and versatile, go with a Sword build.

However, one thing: I’d suggest S/P, not S/D (unless you really want perma stealth). S/P is a bit more useful and powerful, and has some neat interrupts, which S/D lacks a lot of.

style.6173:

As it stands right now, this is probably the weakest of the thief weapon sets (even more so than P/P). So I’ve been thinking about easy ways to fix it. So here is my crazy idea:

Add a leap finisher to Infiltrator’s Strike

This would add a whole new mechanic to the weapon set. You would have a way to access stealth, but it would be less efficient than the D/P combo. It would be fun to see some more people actually using S/P.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

First- yeah, it’s not quite the same thing as the baller set you’ll get from D/D. It just doesn’t do quite as much damage.

However, as a long-time Sword lover, and, particularly, S/P, I think that you honestly just don’t know how to use the set. For one thing, it’s much more of a graceful, hit-and-run, Shadowstep-Pistol Whip-Shadowstep Away deal than a “ermahgerd I’m gonna go right up to my enemy and spam Backstab/Heartseeker/LDB lol”.

S/P is also a much more survivable set than most others (I think SB might- might- be the exception). It comes with two automatic interrupts, a cheap shadowstep and condition removal, amazing kiting options (seriously, S/P could practically be considered a ranged weapon set, if it weren’t for the fact that you can’t teleport up keep walls and the like), and some pretty nice, sustainable bursting. D/D only has some good bursting and nice damage- but that’s it. It’s a much riskier weaponset that can be immensely rewarding, but is very likely to also get you absolutely murdered. S/P gives you, I think, a small advantage over a very, very long period of time, and, unless your opponent doesn’t know what he/she’s doing, will be very likely to get them stomped before they even realize it.

Maybe you’re a masochistic gambler that likes to take insane risks, but S/P is a fantastic weaponset because it deals great, sustainable damage, condition removal, kiting, etc, unlike D/D.

I really hate that so few people use S/P like I do (actually, I’ve been using some more D/D builds recently, but I think I’m going to switch back to my strong and standard 0/20/20/15/15 build soon). I think that people just go to the thief with a very narrow mindset. I came to the thief for the shadowsteps, and that’s how I got into S/P.

Err, I think you’ve got something wrong here. First of all, I find it difficult to believe that ANet didn’t slash the money supply to shreds when they took down all of those bots- I’m sure they deleted the accounts, thereby deleting all of the gold and supplies reaped by those bots.

On top of that, ANet also has the TP as a very convenient gold sink. It lets them take out an insane amount of gold (if necessary) from the economy to combat inflation caused by bots, increased money supply by selling to merchants, and so forth.

covenn.7165:

The reason they are crying is:

2. Even a bad player can be successful with a thief

This is false. Either you’ve never played a thief before or you’ve had the misfortune to have met one or two really good thieves while ignoring the other hundred that you crushed under your foot.

I love thieves. A lot. But I can tell you that, after all of this time, I still am nowhere near my idea of “successful”. With the build I currently run, I generally can

1. Put up a good 1v1 fight against enemies (though a win isn’t guaranteed)
2. Use hit-and-run tactics on a mob to pick off a few enemies here and there.
3. Make my thief do mediocre damage, but ready to stealth into oblivion if necessary.

depending on what skill set I have on my bar going into battle.

However, I am far from saying that my thief is “successful”. I still die. A lot. I still find myself making a mistake and then getting chopped to pieces by an enemy warrior’s Hundred Blades. I still find that one nooby bunker guardian with all the best gear that will never- ever- die, and have to find myself retreating from battle because they’re OP.
And that’s me. I’ve been a fairly dedicated thief since September.

Now, looking at around 90% of other thieves, I can guarantee you that the first thing that pops into my mind is not “ermahgerd too OP”. Uh, no. In fact, in WvW, I find that thieves tend to be one of the- if not the- weakest possible class you can find enemy players playing as. A good thief has mastered their stealth mechanic, initiative, etc to make for either a very crude (D/D :p) or graceful (IMO, S/P) attacker. Either way, they turn out to be quite excellent, but even then, they are nowhere near unstoppable. However, most thieves are really bad, nooby ones who see posts like this on the forums and think “Wow, if I choose a thief as my main, I’ll totally blow the kitten out of everybody!”. Then, they get onto the field and are stomped into the ground by literally every other class. Thieves require a lot of skill.

In short: this is just a lie. Most thieves are awful. There are a few good ones. Just because you lost to a couple of those doesn’t mean you have to come whining to us to tell us that thieves are OP.

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Demand-pull inflation…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand-pull_inflation

Feel free to dispute the idea. But to say Supply and Demand isn’t inflation is not some universally held belief…

Supply and Demand is not inflation.

An increase in Aggregate Demand that causes suppliers to increase production levels and prices is inflation.

A decrease in Aggregate Supply that causes suppliers to decrease production levels and increase supply (“stagflation”) is inflation.

The concept of Supply and Demand is not inflation. Now, what happens to aggregate demand and aggregate supply might affect inflation. But Supply and Demand does not equal inflation. You could just as easily argue that it can equal deflation.

Also, keep in mind that inflation is for the entire economy, not simply individual products.

1. Do you want to play more of a support role or a soloist role?

2. Do you want to play aggressively, defensively, from a range- what?

3. If you could describe a strategy to me that you would like to play with, what would that strategy be?

I’m going to go a bit against the grain here and state that I think that any profession could fit your needs here. Really, generally speaking, all of the professions are about (if not completely) equal in their own various styles, to the extent of my experience with all of them.

For example- you want something good in PvP and PvE? Mesmers- they can run fantastic, nearly-unkillable clone builds that will serve you particularly well in PvP, although they might take a while for you to be able to access in PvE. Engi’s- they have some pretty awesome options too, especially for newer players. Seriously- reach level five, grab a grenade kit from them, and murder everybody. It’s awesome.

As for warriors- don’t listen to what people say here on the forums about them being “bad”. That’s not true. To the extent of my knowledge, they’re heavy-hitting DPS’ers that will probably crush you if you don’t know what you’re doing. They’re also fairly easy to start off with as a profession. That doesn’t make them invincible, though. A good thief, for example, can time his evades, stealths, and, if you’re like me, Infiltrator’s Strikes and Shadow Returns almost flawlessly to rip a warrior apart at the seams. Of course, good warriors will have a nice variety of blocks, pushbacks, and timing on their strikes to counter-attack… And so on and so forth.

So, really, I think it depends more on how you want to play. Here are a few questions I would like to ask you to help you choose a profession:

There’s also one other solution that I think people are missing out on. That would be that ANet is basically injecting money in the form of supply into the economy in order to
1. Control high inflation
2. Control heavy supply shocks
or
3. Bring the economy out of a depression

All three are very possible. Simply looking at the aggregate supply/demand curves, if supply shifts to the right, then price level will decrease, and production will return to long-run equilibrium. This means deflation, as well as policy to keep the economy in check. Of course, they can’t just do this willy-nilly, otherwise people who have their money invested in large amounts of materials, for example, would suddenly find themselves with half the gold that they had had beforehand. It also means that the economy- given that it is experiencing stunted economic output- will return to its long-run equilibrium state at the LRAS.

These are all very valid reasons why ANet could be injecting money in the form of supply into the economy that does not break the market.

Mike.7236:

@Ursan:

Most of the time there are few Skritt bags entering the market to fill buy orders. Then suddenly, huge amounts of Skritt bags drop into the market, all at the same time.

A player playing in Skritt territory for some time might accumulate 10 bags, decide he can’t be bothered to open them, and dump them at the trade post, filling a buy order. But under what circumstances might a player conceivably dump thousands of bag at the same time?

Wasn’t going to mention this- I don’t know about a single player dumping thousands of bags at once, nor about the limit of only 250 sales at a time, but the very obvious solution is, as was mentioned, that players are simply taking advantage of a market not in equilibrium. Player buys something at a price slightly higher than the current highest buying price, then they sell it slightly lower than they current lowest selling price. I’ve done this before, and, with some markets, it works fantastically. Buy 100 of an item, and then sell it back off to make a few silver or whatnot.

Ursan.7846:

Good job, you found a market that hasn’t fully reached equilibrium yet.

Take advantage while you can. As more people learn about this, the prices will slowly reach equilibrium.

There’s a ton of markets that are like this. No, Anet isn’t doing anything, players are just silly and don’t realize things.

NO DON’T TELL THEM UGHHHHH

Thanks, knew that GoM was near the bottom, although… Never would have thought it was that awful. -.-

I’ll probably switch to another server, simply because GoM is getting real old for me, but thanks guys.

I’m rather new to this forum, so please excuse me if this question has already been asked/addressed elsewhere. Anyways, I’d like to know if we’re ever going to get changes to our matchups in the WvW system. Seriously- if Gates of Madness has to play Henge of Denravi and Darkhaven one more time, my brain might just explode and spew brains all over my computer.

Any information about this would be much appreciated.

Thanks guys, this is great.

Here’s a link to the current build that I’m using as my WvWvW thief:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYQQNAsaVlcmaOHfS4E9JFxmCfKUOFF1o+HIb/hrC

You guys are smart, you can figure most of it for yourselves. Let me just give a brief overview:
- Built as a sustained damage build, with Deception skills/Signets giving initiative boosts, might stacks, invisibility, etc.
- S/P because Infiltrator’s Strike/Shadow Return is amazing (good cond. removal, stun breaker, immobilize, and a good start to the following Pistol Whip). Pistol Whip is fantastic- it dishes out tons of damage in just a little time, as well as a nice stun at the beginning of the animation, and Headshot is a great interrupt tool
- SB because it gives this build a little more backbone with AoE attacks, a neat combo field, etc. (can also be swapped for P/P, which is a neat little weapon set to have on you)
- I have the acrobatics/ trickery trait as 15/15 for 1) mobility 2) might stacks and 3) extra initiative for the relatively costly sets of attacks that I will use with my S/P

There’s the extremely shortened version of the explanation for my build. Now, for my question:

I’ve been swapping builds insanely quickly as of late on my thief- I can never seem to find one that I find to be all that good for my style of play. I started with a 0/30/20/0/20 build a little bit ago, with traits tailored to allow for real versatility in the utility skills that I used, but I found that this versatility came at the cost of me being unable to specialize in any particular area, so, for example, I’d get crushed because I wasn’t doing enough DPS to opponents.

Then I tried a no-share venom build (30/0/20/0/20), and while it was quite survivable and respectable a build, I felt like it did next to no damage, so I dumped that one as well.

Skipping around a bit- a few builds later, I got to the one I posted above.

So, if you guys could give me suggestions as to equipment I could use to make this build better, or trait changes I could make, I would be extremely grateful, because I’m going insane from swapping builds every fifteen minutes.