The poster specifically asked about a certain armor set, when you evaluate the effectiveness of that set, he didnt ask if 1 specific build is as strong as another specific build.
He also is talking about PVE/Fractals, which means if you have been doing it awhile you switch your utilities and weapons based on what you need to do at the time.
Answering the OPs question, yes, warrior/guardian are considerably more survivable than thieves/ele when wearing berserker armor.
As to why that is the case, its because they have more effective health, more blocks, more mitigation IN ADDITION to their dodges, and dodge abilities.
Point is, classes are actually different and excel at different things, even with the same armor. I dont think you are really trying to say that a thief is as survivable in PVE as a warrior or guardian, so i dont even know why you re mad.
in HP alone, level 80 with base vit
10k thief versus 18warrior
in armor
920 ele versus 1211 guardian/warrior
= about 20% difference in damage mitigation .
these two alone = a lot less squishy.
guardian has a class mechanic which provides heal over time, and heal IN ADDITION to their heal skill,
they have 5 weaponskills which heal, 3 utilities, and 6 traits.
yes they are more survivable even while wearing berserker gear.
Base stats say little actually. It’s why Guardian HP is far from it’s EHP. If we strip the utilities and traits a Guard has and leaving his base stats unchanged, do you think he’ll still be as survivable?
I’m arguing the fact that you’ve used bad evidence to prove the survivabiltiy of the professions. It’s maddening because this is the reason why classes get unecessary nerfs and bad rep. Provide skills that the class may often use in those situations and you’ll have a better argument. Simply stating that they have these skills is not enough. Show the situations where they are used, and how often they are used. If by following the same way you presented evidence, I could say eles (squish squish) are survivable because they have a shield that blocks attacks and a 3 second mobile invun. It’s just not… Enough to prove much.
I could argue that, with enough skill, every class becomes near-equal in survivability (yes, even thieves.) but, yeah. Too hard for the average player to reach the point where they have internal clocks for every cooldown on every ele skill. So for all intents and purposes, Warriors and Guards survive better.
I do suggest OP to force himself to continue playing (or start playing) the squishy professions. It helps situational awareness and all that jazz.
you are paranoid of nerfs, i wasnt saying guardian or warrior is OP. im stating the fact that they are more survivable, and yes they were designed that way. They fully expect guardians and warriors to be able to survive a lot easier with more builds.
I’m not.
The way you argued their survivability is incomplete.
The community is tainted with people who haven’t learned enough. And it’s getting tiring to see QQ threads and posts about classes or their game mechanics that really aren’t OP at all.
And that’s what I’m concerned about, a misinformed community.
What I’m asking is that you provide the right evidence so that the community might have a better understanding of the class, not a worse stereotype of it. (The stereotype I’m talking about is uber-unkillable classes. Not the fact that they’re easier to survive in.)
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
The poster specifically asked about a certain armor set, when you evaluate the effectiveness of that set, he didnt ask if 1 specific build is as strong as another specific build.
He also is talking about PVE/Fractals, which means if you have been doing it awhile you switch your utilities and weapons based on what you need to do at the time.
Answering the OPs question, yes, warrior/guardian are considerably more survivable than thieves/ele when wearing berserker armor.
As to why that is the case, its because they have more effective health, more blocks, more mitigation IN ADDITION to their dodges, and dodge abilities.
Point is, classes are actually different and excel at different things, even with the same armor. I dont think you are really trying to say that a thief is as survivable in PVE as a warrior or guardian, so i dont even know why you re mad.
in HP alone, level 80 with base vit
10k thief versus 18warrior
in armor
920 ele versus 1211 guardian/warrior
= about 20% difference in damage mitigation .
these two alone = a lot less squishy.
guardian has a class mechanic which provides heal over time, and heal IN ADDITION to their heal skill,
they have 5 weaponskills which heal, 3 utilities, and 6 traits.
yes they are more survivable even while wearing berserker gear.
Base stats say little actually. It’s why Guardian HP is far from it’s EHP. If we strip the utilities and traits a Guard has and leaving his base stats unchanged, do you think he’ll still be as survivable?
I’m arguing the fact that you’ve used bad evidence to prove the survivabiltiy of the professions. It’s maddening because this is the reason why classes get unecessary nerfs and bad rep. Provide skills that the class may often use in those situations and you’ll have a better argument. Simply stating that they have these skills is not enough. Show the situations where they are used, and how often they are used. If by following the same way you presented evidence, I could say eles (squish squish) are survivable because they have a shield that blocks attacks and a 3 second mobile invun. It’s just not… Enough to prove much.
I could argue that, with enough skill, every class becomes near-equal in survivability (yes, even thieves.) but, yeah. Too hard for the average player to reach the point where they have internal clocks for every cooldown on every ele skill. So for all intents and purposes, Warriors and Guards survive better.
I do suggest OP to force himself to continue playing (or start playing) the squishy professions. It helps situational awareness and all that jazz.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?
Your survivability is more reliant on your ability to press ‘V’ than anything else.
I’ve been on dungeons and fractals where the heavies are constantly down and the squishies stay up, and vice-versa. Thief, Guardian, Ele, whatever…..it doesn’t really matter as dodging is more important than class or gear when it comes to surviving in PvE.
incorrect.
warriors/guardians will take less base dmg just from armor
they have more effective HP due to heals, protection
they have abilities which reduce dmg, like dolyak signet endure pain, aegis. they got strong hot like heal signet guardian has a large number of block skills.
the warrior guardian has to dodge less, and more dmg cancels. inspite of peoples belief to the contrary, there is a fairly large difference in what proffessions can do.
Guardians actually are forced to dodge if they have unscathed contender.
Imagine, not one hit must be taken for them to keep this up.
Oh and Doly Signet is nothing compared to Signet of Judgment and Signet of Stamina.
On a side note, I can barely understand your English, or your supposed “knowledge” on the professions you’re talking about.
I thought this post was amusing.
Curious why you are using an ad hominem attack ? Do you not understand class jargon? The poster pretty much nailed it, if you are unsure of what jargon means GIYF.
Of course I know class jargon. It’s just that his knowledge on Guardians and Warriors is lacking considering he’s stating skills and class mechanics which aren’t even the best or even used by most DPS/Burst builds.
And he should try structuring his sentences better. It’s not exactly readable.
Besides, you could accuse me of ad hominem all you want but it’s a fact that stating simple facts that every skilled player should know shows that his “argument” is already failing. Protection? Not all Guards have good access to it. I do admit the amount of blocks Guards have is fairly high, which is really only noticeable if the timing’s right. Although… eles, thieves, mesmers, warriors, and heck almost every class has a powerful mitigation tool used even in Damage builds. Doly Signet? Why waste a utility slot on toughness in a Damage build? Besides, why use that example when Guardians have a signet with 10% flat damage reduction? (Which is still rarely used in Damage builds) Simple, not enough info. I’m casting doubt on the credibility of his claims, because it’s never a good time to make an argument based on exaggerated and weak info.
The context is in a Zerker-oriented and probably a damage-oriented view. His argument would’ve had some power if he hadn’t forgotten that no build has everything. Especially not Damage specs.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?
Your survivability is more reliant on your ability to press ‘V’ than anything else.
I’ve been on dungeons and fractals where the heavies are constantly down and the squishies stay up, and vice-versa. Thief, Guardian, Ele, whatever…..it doesn’t really matter as dodging is more important than class or gear when it comes to surviving in PvE.
incorrect.
warriors/guardians will take less base dmg just from armor
they have more effective HP due to heals, protection
they have abilities which reduce dmg, like dolyak signet endure pain, aegis. they got strong hot like heal signet guardian has a large number of block skills.
the warrior guardian has to dodge less, and more dmg cancels. inspite of peoples belief to the contrary, there is a fairly large difference in what proffessions can do.
Guardians actually are forced to dodge if they have unscathed contender.
Imagine, not one hit must be taken for them to keep this up.
Oh and Doly Signet is nothing compared to Signet of Judgment and Signet of Stamina.
On a side note, I can barely understand your English, or your supposed “knowledge” on the professions you’re talking about.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
Ty TDA guild for coming to ruin good 1v1 fights in FoW bl. Really classy.
Although I do suppose it would be best that they didn’t, there is always an inherent risk to dueling in WvW. And I think higher pop (TDA coming from Gandara and all) has a bit less respect for dueling because it hogs queue times without contributing much. No offense though, just stating some possibilities and stuff. No offense to either parties though.
I’d like to hear TDA’s stand though. It might just be some bad/new guildies.
Well I saw a TDA in a duel today…
I had a nice duel with TDA, it was all good. To duel is not a privilege in wvw imo so everything could happen. I’m just happy if we can have a nice clean duel, if not then move on!
Then I’m happy to say that it’s more liekly that might’ve just had some bad/new guildies ^^
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
Ty TDA guild for coming to ruin good 1v1 fights in FoW bl. Really classy.
Although I do suppose it would be best that they didn’t, there is always an inherent risk to dueling in WvW. And I think higher pop (TDA coming from Gandara and all) has a bit less respect for dueling because it hogs queue times without contributing much. No offense though, just stating some possibilities and stuff. No offense to either parties though.
I’d like to hear TDA’s stand though. It might just be some bad/new guildies.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
…you’re giving out a nice idea of the surmian community, keep it up, good spirit right there.
Though ambiguous, it does mean that he’s referring to the player that gives off a bad impression for the server itself. There is no direct attack to the server. Although it could mean that he thinks all of Surmia is like that, I think what he means is that this specific player shouldn’t be so pathetic as to tarnish his server’s rep. I suggest that you try wording it a bit better next time, Rhaz.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
30 sec cd AoE stability for the group is so ridiculously overbudget. Other classes pay a much steeper cd for a SINGLE player stability cd.
Other classes have viable condition builds, viable ranged weapons and mobility.
Which are those classes. I count only necro and engineer, with spirit ranger somwhat cutting it.
Viable ranged weapons lol. Guardian scepter auto has the highest base damage even if the speed of the projectiles is slower to make up for it. And in a format where close quarters combat is mandated to conserve points, arguing about ranged weapons is moot.
And none of those condition builds or ranged weapons make them mandatory. You can swap a conditionmancer for a spirit ranger or engineer for largely similar results in aoe condition pressure.
You cannot build a team without a guardian bunker. No other class is as essential as a guardian.
Even if it were true, which it isn’t , don’t you think that Guards need less nerfs in terms of the thing they were meant to do? It’s not like Guardians can do anything else in Tournaments because of their wonderfully low base health?
Their DPS spec just needs a kitten snare. That’s about it.
And bring me recent tournament winners who didn’t have a single guardian in their team.
Alright I’m going to list all the possible snares that a guardian can have in a build and you tell me if they need more; 4 second immob, 3 second kd, 2 second kd, ring of warding, line of warding, Binding blade, chains of light, Zealot’s embrace and that’s not including the teleports they have but hey, they need more.
It’s the same as Mesmer condition-cleanse.
The skills that do give condition-cleanse aren’t always viable in the builds that are effective.
Same as the skills that snare aren’t always viable in the builds that are effective for a burst Guard.
Although some of these are viable.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
Why do people expect a class that is built around teamfighting to be a duelist against everybody too?
Let’s give him more support abilities because he obviously can’t duel because he’s a support profession!
/sarcasm
Although I do agree that Guards aren’t supposed to have as much potential in duels as Mesmers and Thieves, the class should at least be able to hold its own.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
30 sec cd AoE stability for the group is so ridiculously overbudget. Other classes pay a much steeper cd for a SINGLE player stability cd.
Other classes have viable condition builds, viable ranged weapons and mobility.
Which are those classes. I count only necro and engineer, with spirit ranger somwhat cutting it.
Viable ranged weapons lol. Guardian scepter auto has the highest base damage even if the speed of the projectiles is slower to make up for it. And in a format where close quarters combat is mandated to conserve points, arguing about ranged weapons is moot.
And none of those condition builds or ranged weapons make them mandatory. You can swap a conditionmancer for a spirit ranger or engineer for largely similar results in aoe condition pressure.
You cannot build a team without a guardian bunker. No other class is as essential as a guardian.
Even if it were true, which it isn’t , don’t you think that Guards need less nerfs in terms of the thing they were meant to do? It’s not like Guardians can do anything else in Tournaments because of their wonderfully low base health?
Their DPS spec just needs a kitten snare. That’s about it.
And bring me recent tournament winners who didn’t have a single guardian in their team.
I’m pretty sure there are tournaments where a team with a good engi bunker won.
Remember that Guard bunkers are still susceptible to condition burst and long enough sustain (because Cleric’s and low base health)
If you were to nerf the bunker capabilities of a Guardian, how could you? Bunker eles were better than Guardians at some point before. Do you want to see Guardians back in the awesome “most balanced” but less viable" build.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
30 sec cd AoE stability for the group is so ridiculously overbudget. Other classes pay a much steeper cd for a SINGLE player stability cd.
Other classes have viable condition builds, viable ranged weapons and mobility.
Which are those classes. I count only necro and engineer, with spirit ranger somwhat cutting it.
Viable ranged weapons lol. Guardian scepter auto has the highest base damage even if the speed of the projectiles is slower to make up for it. And in a format where close quarters combat is mandated to conserve points, arguing about ranged weapons is moot.
And none of those condition builds or ranged weapons make them mandatory. You can swap a conditionmancer for a spirit ranger or engineer for largely similar results in aoe condition pressure.
You cannot build a team without a guardian bunker. No other class is as essential as a guardian.
Even if it were true, which it isn’t , don’t you think that Guards need less nerfs in terms of the thing they were meant to do? It’s not like Guardians can do anything else in Tournaments because of their wonderfully low base health?
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
aspirine it would be nice to meet you in game. I can assure you there are a lot of good players on dzagonur. actually most of the time our players think it is quite safe to jump into a bigger group of enemies (not talking about the zergs,because yeah ours are bigger and there’s no skill in that) and wipe them and most of the time it becomes true.well players I talk to in teamspeak who know what they are doing think that anyway but i guess it’s easy to find a lot of players that don’t use TS and are new to wvw and get farmed by some of your groups that know what to do(those must be those easy kills you are referring to). I’m not trying to insult because i’m sure there must be a lot of good players on your server but your general coordination and your builds are really lacking something. I play GS/Bow with almost full berserker armor and jewelry+melandru and I should not be allowed to run in front of our zerg and still survive the whole battle right beetween you guys!And believe me I would not do that against Drakkar or RoF because i’d be dead within the first 2 seconds my endure pain wears off
We lack coordination because WvW was (and is) so bad for us. (unless it’s Vabbi and WSR at least for the moment)
Not everyone can be dedicated to something so fruitless.
WvW isn’t fair enough for us to prepare enough players in terms of build, knowledge and skill.
On a side note, if you want skilled players, try our roaming groups (not all though). They kill most of the roaming groups of other servers from my experience running with some.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
Ah yeah complaing about unfair matchup is whining. Yes I forgot.
You have no ground to whine when we were against dzag and fow last time. fow did just the same you would constantly come to our bl and eternal keep with omegas so how is it not fair that we do the same?
I think it was either RoS or RoF that once said that FoW should be deleted for being so weak in WvW.
Now shush.
Everyone in an unfair matchup has the right to complain. The winning server can’t even have a fair zvz, proper team coordination, or even have duels because the veteran wvw players are outnumbered by their pve players who just want to stomp.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
As a Drakkar Lake player I have to appologize to FoW and Arbor for the Spawn Campers and 15+ Blob Runners for Camps. I can assure you this are not WvW Players. Most of them are normally not even seen in WvW as they play normally PvE or RP and are just started with the beginning of Season 1 to show up for their achivements. They are not listening to mapchat, TS or Kommandeur. The majority of the real WvW Players on Drakkar can´t wait that they have finished their Achivements and gone which will hopefully happen within the next days as they totally ruin the reputation and the WvW community with their spawn farming and behaviour.
So once again sorry that you have to face this.
No worries man, we can easily spot the PVE player from the wvw player in the blobs. Your wvw players do not run from small or single fights. Pve players do everything to get back to the zerg.
And, while owning everything and having utterly superior numbers, hide behind Keep doors and use arrowcarts on an already helpless opponenent.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
Not too keen on [HT] coming in and recruiting members from FoW, they seem to have been welcomed with open arms, TSOC has had a lot of critisicm recently aswell for being “squishy” well this comes from the majority of the guild, but i can assure you there are some dedicated players in this guild that originally wanted to WvW from the start, something will be done about this but please no hating :C
RedC
Oh, come on, Red. You guys usually make up for it with a bit more skill.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
Hmm too bad you canot report someone on your own server, if i wasnt stuck at work I would login and try something to prevent this. Sorry guys :/
You can report from your own server ^^ All you gotta do is find him! Even better you can then take his name, pass it to other people and they can report him via adding to block/friends and right click without even having to see him.
The problem is making sure which one is the right one. I don’t condone his actions, but I don’t think it’s as feasible as people think. Rest assured, I’ll keep my eyes open.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
A member from ICT bugged/hacked into our t3 overlook. Is this really how you have to take vabbi’s keeps. Pathetic. You have 3x our numbers and revert to cheating. Picture shows the player killing the lord from under the ground. No gates/walls down at overlook.
Like I said before, it’s really the fault of the player, not the server. Report him, it works better.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
You’re just upset you have to wait until next week to be reunited with Jathres, and are taking our your pent up frustration out here.
On a serious note I haven’t seen anything like that so far, but pretty sad to hear about it. If I wanted massive egos I would have stayed on FoW.
Are you sure you’re not just talking him and his almighty perceptionwink
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
most of the people complaining about these AP in WvW leading to PvE coming to WvW are from T1/T2.
sorry folks, no sympathy for you. you stacked, so that’s your problem now….
Uh…I’m not in T1/T2….I’m complaining. Lol. I don’t want or need your sympathy. But thanks :P
All of you that are telling people to stop whining should step into other people’s shoes once in awhile. May do you some good. Lol. Hopefully you get stuck in a queue for all of a reset night and then maybe you’ll start having some “sympathy”.
Well, as one of the lowest servers, we’ve been mocked and criticized for our lower pop. I lost my sympathy for higher pop servers when I’ve heard more than once from them that my server should be deleted.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
We have oke commanders but havent seen any real good one. No offense to the commanders mentioned above they are good in a karma train but organised group fights are rather poorly done.
If i have to mention a commander it is Psychotic of course. But he doesnt tag up so much
No offense but you can’t compare an organized group using a ts or rc to someone trying to type to a large pug. If fow would make a server wide ts server that everyone would use it would help drastically and lock guild channels so you can still do your raids on it… Fow is a very hostile server who commander bashes a lot. Unify and maybe fow will get somewhere and also will make ppl not want to switch servers. Gl and hf with season 1.
…Server wide teamspeak might be a bit to chaotic but every guild group should have a teamspeak sevrer or share one with a friended guild. The main problem is the different leaders from the guild groups around do not communicate very good with eachother. Set aside differences and work together and we can do alot better…
Well, there is a small alliance by AKP, WoE, YORK, and PvP, but I doubt our guild leader would want to ally with some other guilds because of their, well, reputation or simply because their guild leader is a git.
I haven’t heard of any other alliance though.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
I want to know why we aren’t mercilessly ripping out the souls of greedy PvE’rs that only help the server (Yes, Dzag, I’m looking at you too) when they outclass the opponent.
Commander of FoW, Lieutenant of [AKP], and Proud Human and Guardian
“Humanity cannot grasp Utopia for it refuses to be worthy of it”
