Guild Wars 2

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Since some of yall are talking about the quote on best statistical gear, here is the actual quote

From September 27, 2011 Source

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.

When you get to the end of the dungeon and you kill the boss, when the five of you take a boss out, everybody gets a token. And you can turn those tokens in and use them to get whatever reward you want from that dungeon at the end.

He did say at the time 2011 which before we know anything would existed yet. Heck we don’t know if such tiers were there. Maybe there was a tier called Divine, or Superawesomemagicthingy. A lot of things have changed since 2011.

He also never said or equate dungeons rewards (which granted are exotic) would be the best didn’t he?

Ohoni.6057:

No, not if you use the words “convenient” and “accessible” as they are defined in the English language.

Nope, once again you are using semantics. You have no ground. This point is wrong. You haven’t proved that these words don’t mean the same as in game meaning of it. Sorry do better

Ohoni.6057:

Just because it’s theoretically possible for someone to do something does not mean that it is convenient for them, and raids, as traditionally handled by other games, are massively inconvenient to the vast majority of humanity, whether they are inconvenient to you personally or not.

No statistical sources. These are again made up. vast majority of humanity lol really? You’re actually believing that?

The contents accessible to the vast majority of the average players. That’s what ArenaNet’s aim here.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m misrepresenting nothing. They clearly said that you would not have to [do the things one has to do to get ascended armor] in order to earn the best stats, so clearly when they were talking about the “best stats,” they must have been talking about the stats of Exotic armor, because that is the final tier of armor before you run into the the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.” or the "Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.” that they were promising to avoid.

Nope, they said once you get earn your best statistical equipment you are leveled with everyone in the said. As we have proven that there is no grind for ascended. Only you perceived it as grind.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ll need a source for your 300g figure, every source I’ve found is 400g for Medium, 600g for cloth at current prices. And RNG drops don’t count, otherwise Legendary Precursors would all be “free” too. The price is the market value. Here’s a calculator I found

Half of the cost would assume you collect RNG drops, mats, salvages etc. Of course it is taken into account. Hence the 300g. See? Your spreadsheet agrees. Let me show you the math: 600/2 = 300. You are posing a scenario where a player would buy everything from the market. Which is strawman. And your analogy with Legendary Precursors are also strawman. Do better.

You’re the one claiming that 10g is a reasonable amount, the onus is on you to prove that, not on me to disprove it.

I never said anything about reasonable. Again you’re lying. I said it is possible to earn 10g within 1 hour of play.

Arah p1: 3g31s, Arah p2: 3g31s, Arah p4: 3g31s plus some extra changes. I hope I don’t have to do the math for you. Oh nevermind maybe I’ll do it anyway in case you need to know: its: 9g93s + loots (which is often about 1-2g worth) there you go. I’ve proven to you. That it is possible to obtain 10g in one session play within 35 minutes. Should I link the vids too?

Again, cite your source that most players in the game earn Ascended gear for free.

Cite your source that most players will crank out 600g for an ascended armor set. Yeah it’s on the spreadsheet that it would cost you 600g if you buy everything. Cite your source that most players do that. You were claiming it first.

The point is, you’re just wrong. Ascended is accessible to everyone. If you actually sit down and play the game please. It seems you don’t actually understand how the process work. We can help you earn some ascended stuffs if you ask how to do it.

Will you swim in the jungle? HOHOHOHOHO

So t5 leathers are going 5:1 ratio up from 3:1…
So mithrils are going 3:1 ratio up from 2:1…
So t5 woods are going 4:1 ratio up from 3:1….
So oricalcum, platinum are going 3:1 ratio up from 2:1…

#speculation but you’ll never know

Yay for refinement. Or you could just hold and not update your client til you read the patch note and then update. Or just have two game clients on two different comps. Update one, don’t update the other. Find out for yourself.

John, one major concern here:

Are you going to do one of the underhand tactics with 3:1 to 4:1 or 2:1 to 3:1 refinement ratios thingggy again.

Remember that one time where you changed softwood from 3:1 to 4:1? It would be nice to know so I won’t update my client until I find out about those and refine about 100k softwood before I got shafted you know.

If this is any indication, player beware t5 leathers are going from 3:1 to 5:1, better refine now.

Or please John, let us know if you are going to use those underhand tactics again so we know ahead of time. Please

I don’t know. Eternity seems really nice still. I wouldn’t look at someone who has eternity and say “oh he got it when it was really easy” ;D I think the old legendaries still have values.

PopeUrban.2578:

Celtic Lady.3729:

You didn’t honestly think there would never be a gear treadmill in this game, did you?

There still isn’t…

Yup there isn’t a gear treadmill at all or wasn’t ever…. so… yeah…. yeah…

Ohoni.6057:

That’s not really necessary, exotics are easy enough to get, it’s just the jump to Ascended that poses a problem.

Speaking for everyone? Ascended are easy enough to get. There is no problem.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t really see the point to it. Are you really having trouble earning a full set of Exotic armor?

I don’t see a point to your entire post and following arguments. Are you really having trouble earning a full set of ascended armor?

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, the Legendary blog post left me without a lot of hope. It seemed to describe a long process of “do exactly what we tell you, no choice, no options, PLAY IT OUR WAY.”

That seems to be the opposite of fun to me, and the opposite to the first three years “play it your way” promise. I really hope they clarify all this that you will have actual options, and not be forced into specific lanes if you want specific rewards. There are plenty of activities that I absolutely love in this game, but there are also plenty of activities that I want no part of, and I don’t want the game telling me that I have to do a little bit of everything if I want certain rewards.

Again, you are taking the quote out of context again and again. This is the 7th-8th time I counted. The play it your way has always referred to play the class you want. It was never meant to be do whatever you want we hand you the same reward anyway. It couldn’t be taken out of context worse than this. Goodness. Write honestly. Don’t misrepresent the information for your personal gain agendas.

Ohoni.6057:

You realize your quotes here never mention that “exotic would be the highest tier”.

Not in those literal words, no, but they made that same point. Exotic items clearly fit the definition of what they are going for there, Ascended definitely FAIL to meet the definition of what they were going for there, so they couldn’t have been talking about Ascended, therefore they must have been talking about Exotic.

You are misrepresenting the information again. Exotic items never fit this definition. They are never meant to be highest tier The fact that Legendary items fit this tier implies that the only tier they were talking about here is ascended It was all in the plan. Again the release time of the items are irrelevant.

Legendary is the highest tier, but when the game launched it all had Exotic level stats, and their point was that you would never have to grind to get stats higher than that (Exotic). But then they added Ascended, which you DO have to grind out to get stats higher than Exotic.

Exotics were merely placeholders. Exotic are basically trash as you previously mentioned. Again ascended were planned from the beginning. And you DON’T have to grind out the stats.

It’s the armor and weapons that take significant amounts of grind.

No, it’s not. You get them for free in fractal. About 80g for the BEST stat weapons in the game? That is not a grind at all. And no, you made up that ridiculous 400-600g for armor set? It’s more like 300g or rather free if you run fractals. You heard it FREE. So in combination of both crafting and fractals. It’s more like 100g for the entire set of armor. And 100g for basically all you ever need for that character? That’s hardly a grind.

You do understand that 10g per day is NOT the average player income, right?

Oh yeah? Do you have the statistics? It’s moot point to say “so and so average player doesn’t earn”. You don’t have the statistics, neither do I, so your claim is moot.
What I said is 10g per day is an underestimate of what a player can earn. Or maybe if you actually play the game you’ll find out.

It costs ~400-600g for a suit of ascended armor, plus more for weapons. I don’t know where your 300g factors in.

Yeah like your grossly over exaggerated numbers will say anything. Most players get their ascended stuffs free from drops. 300g is an underestimate.

that’s very nice, but your experience is not everyone else’s experience, and if you could understand that, if you could develop the sense that other human beings might be different than you without being lesser than you, then maybe you could understand what we’ve been talking about.

You don’t speak for anyone else either. I merely point out it’s easily obtainable if you play the game as it is intended to be played, you will get ascended in one month. Else if someone here who doesn’t play the game as it is intended to be played, obviously that person won’t be able to earn what’s meant to be earned. Ascended is no grind it’s proven here.

Ohoni.6057:

Here’s a quote from Mike O’Brien near launch

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

I think it’s fair to say that Ascended armor qualifies as something he’s saying they wouldn’t do to us. Now they clearly changed their minds, but if you are claiming that they knew then that they intended to add Ascended armor, then you’re calling him a liar in that interview.

Here’s a GW2 news post from Colin from summer of 2012

“When your game systems are derived and designed to fill this prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you potentially sacrifice quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, *the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.”*

, clearly indicating that GW2 would not be that sort of game. He then goes on to say later,

“The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, *but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”*

You realize your quotes here never mention that “exotic would be the highest tier”. In fact it heavily implied that legendary is the highest tier, and ascended being equal to legendary in stat but not in look is what they were referring to (granted it might not have been called ascended at the time, but they just simply say highest tier). So you again misinterpret the devs.

About the philosophy of no grind. If you play the game normally (in fact just log in), in one month you get 55 laurels. If you participate in guild mission, you get 24 guild commendations. You play 1 fractal every 2 days. Guess what, you deck out all your trinkets in ascended. You call that a grind? Please. This is exactly what they promised and they delivered it.

If you make 10g a day which is like 1 hour of play. Please ppl can run arah 1,2,4 in 40 mins altogether (and that’s actually SLOW) that’s 10g. Plus more. And if you do 1 or 2 world bosses you get plenty. Bam 30 days? Guess what 300g+ a full set of ascended armor + weapons + trinket BAM. How is that a grind? If you’re slow it takes 2 months, 600g+ plus extra to spare. Oh please. Grind? Of course it’s not grindy. After 3 years, I have collected over 700 bolts of damasks, a thousands of each of the other t6. I can deck out 30 characters in full ascended. The effort for 1? Oh please 1 month is more than enough.

Going to work, will respond to the rest of the post later. Cya

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Raids = Legendary armor progress

• Player A – “I don’t like Raids, put Legendary armor in Dungeons”
• Player B – “I don’t like Dungeons, put Legendary armor in Jump Puzzles”
• Player C – “I don’t like Jumping Puzzles, let me make it using my high level crafting”
• Player D – “I don’t like crafting. Why am I forced to level my crafting? Let me PvP for Legendary armor”
• Player E – “I don’t like to PvP. I only WvW. Make Legendary armor drop in WvW!”
• Player F – “I don’t have time for any of that. Let me buy it from the Gem store”
• Player G – “I only Roleplay in Divinity’s Reach. It’s not fair that I have to play content to get rewards. How about holding a raffle for a Legendary armor?”

Where does it end? There’s absolutely no way to satisfy the entire player base. So instead of pandering to everyone who players different game modes, just set the bar high on one specific content. Allow all players to have access to the new content, and may the best win and earn the rewards.

Believe it or not, some poster here in this thread believe that Anet should satisfy Player G’s request. That’s the scary part… They really believe that.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

even so, the question is not whether someone who is fractal level 10 should be in raids
the question is whether someone who has played for 2 months-2 years without touching any mildy difficult content is any more capable as someone who played for
3 weeks and is fractal level 30
because the first guy could have full ascended, and the second guy might only have 1 ring.

The first player would probably not survive in the Raid even with full Ascended while the second one has a much higher chance of succeeding even in full Exotics. Keep in mind that having a proper build, team composition and good rotation will result in much much higher efficiency than the difference between Exotic and Ascended, and those cannot be learned while not running difficult content.

I can understand there is a problem balancing Raids with Ascended, especially if you are a returning player, or if you will need to switch your build to fit a new role, getting Ascended Cleric gear to play the Druid in the Raid for example. But I have the sneaky suspicion those asking for Raids to be balanced under Exotics are not those kinds of players.

Cleric druid is nice. DnT has been pretty quiet lately about the builds… yeah. Oh on another thought maybe Cleric guard can have a place. I remember Nemesis has a cleric guard build that can produce 1k+ hp/sec constant party wide regen. It has been use for FoTM 50 trio sell a lot lately. It might do something with the raids.

Barret.4095:

Burn.5401:

A-Net creates challenging content after 3 years of the same easy and boring dungeons and all the casuals throw a tantrum because they can’t beat completely optional content without working for it. What a surprise.

welcome to gw2 dude, bunch of entitled little babies

Like you mean half of current guild wars 2 population can do current dungeons content without having to sweat as if they have ran a irl marathon? I joined a guild when I first started and omg the so called experienced officers with 8k+ AP insist we only do AC story because AC explorables were so hard and will take forever. I didn’t believe them.

When we tried AC path 1, one supposedly respected veteran members decided to go ranger/longbow camping/with bear and autoattack. Kitting around at the spider queen. For like 10 mins. To make it worse, he took every chance he gets to use longbow 4 on the spider… I told him not to CC, he asked back what’s cc….

An officer was a thief that insisted on camping SHORTBOW and autoattack with it. The above vet member said "oh yeah he does more damage than you [me, an elementalist], because he [the shortbow thief] was wearing full zerk. I asked if he has trinkets and he asked back what is trinket…..

When I tried to teach them how to run things properly, they told me that a newb [me] should be more respectful toward veteran members and they have the right to play however they want.

Long story short, yeah , average guild wars 2 player these days. yeah yeah… oh and this was 2 months ago…

Wait wait Maddoctor, here’s a post I just made on the other thread. You might find it funny:

Theorem: There is no alternative but easier options for obtaining Legendary Armor Precursor.

Proof: Let S be the set of all possible ways one can obtain a legendary armor precursor. Place a partial ordering of difficulty on S, denote by (S,<). (This ordering might differ depending on the person, but it doesn’t matter and it might be a partial ordering) Now since S is finite, there is an extension (S,<<) which leads to a linear ordering on S. Since every finite set S in a linear order has a maximal element, we label it M. Now, there is no such N such that M << N since that contradicts maximality of M. Set M = raid, according to ArenaNet.

Since any other way N will diminish the value of M, we let S = {M}.
QED.

I think I can come up with a cleverer proof. Still thinking of how to write it down though.

Ohoni.6057:

You heavily imply that you want to have easier access to Legendary armor without having to play the content in which it is designed to be obtained from. That demand equates to you thinking you deserve to obtain the reward without playing the content, whether or not now you go back and changing your mind about using the term “deserve” or not.

Again, nobody “deserves” anything. They get what they are given. If ANet decides to change what you have to do to get what you’re given, then lo, it is changed. I am willing to work for the rewards, but I do want to earn it through content more suited to my play style and availability than raids are likely to be. It does not have to be easier, it could in fact be harder and more time consuming, but it should be available through various means that are more suitable to a wider variety of players than raids are. There is nothing wrong with that.

But as we have set it straight, alternative implies easier which diminish the value of the reward.

Proof: Let S be the set of all possible ways one can obtain a legendary precursor. Place a partial ordering of difficulty on S, denote by (S,<). (This ordering might differ depending on the person, but it doesn’t matter and it might be a partial ordering) Now since S is finite, there is an extension (S,<<) which leads to a linear ordering on S. Since every finite set S in a linear order has a maximal element, we label it M. Now, there is no such N such that M << N since that contradicts maximality of M. Set M = raid, according to ArenaNet. QED.

Since any other way N will diminish the value of M, we let S = {M}.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not. Exotic was never meant to be endgame after two months since the release. Putting it “sort of endgame equipment” is misleading.

Which is it, “it was never meant to be endgame equipment,” or “it was meant to be endgame equipment prior to two months after release?” It clearly was the only game in town for many slots up through Christmas of the following year.

Actually now thinking about it, it’s probably “it was never meant to be endgame equipment.” The design of ascended tier was included with the original release. Clearly by judging the development cycle that from the planning of ascended in September, it was released in November. Whether or not the execution of it was done 2 months later is irrelevant. The plan happened at release. Unless again you can quote your source to show me an Anet dev say exotic would be the highest tier. Which is impossible for you to produce such a quote because there is none.

Ohoni.6057:

You can’t equip common lv 80 equipment if you’re not level 80. It doesn’t make common the highest tier, same concept, you can’t equip lv 80 exotic without being level 80, doesn’t make exotic the highest tier.

But there are level 1 common items. There are no exotic items at all below level 62. Until Ascended items were added, they were the highest tier available (in terms of stat bonuses). Even Legendary weapons were not superior to Exotic ones until Ascended were added.

Actually there are level 80 common items. Maybe take a break and play the game a bit? But that’s besides the point. Yeah until ascended was introduced exotic was the highest tier. But since ascended tier was planned from the start, your point is moot. It’s like saying in the first 2 minutes of the game launch, no one discovered a rare item so it was the highest tier, which is in itself a fallacy.

Ohoni.6057:

No no no, it was YOU who said that – and i paraphrase – “they promise no vertical progression” in fact they NEVER did. It was you who misrepresent information. They did promise us vertical progression and they DELIVERED vertical progression.

Now that is a deliberate misrepresentation of the facts, for what it’s worth.

Oh oh here is a QUOTE that you wrote

Ohoni.6057:

But one of the core promises of this game was that there would be no vertical progression, that you would not never better than exotic gear in order to be able to do any content in the game. They make a lie of that if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids, but they can make that right by removing that stat difference.

Who’s misrepresenting the information deliberately? It is you. That was your post sir. You lie when you said: "But one of the core promises of this game was that there would be no vertical progression, that you would not never better than exotic gear in order to be able to do any content in the game. "

I say there was no promises.

Ohoni.6057:

You purposely leave out the other half of the sentence when you quote. See? Trolling?

Look, I get that you’re trying to sell this “trolling” thing because you’d rather I stop saying things that you disagree with, but that’s not how trolling works. It is not trolling to say things that other people disagree with, no matter how many times you repeat the word. Just get used to that fact and try to come up with an actual merit-based response instead.

In order to sell your point, you should not misrepresent the facts, which you have done quite numerous times. You should quote your sources at the least when it is challenged, which you have not done so.. Even on that last post you clearly purposefully leave out the half of the sentence in which is it relevant did you not? Perhaps you should try better

Ohoni.6057:

Yup and that is why most of your posts demand Anet to give out rewards for undeserving gameplay. Which guess what will happen?

They will start giving out rewards for “undeserving” gameplay?

You heavily imply that you want to have easier access to Legendary armor without having to play the content in which it is designed to be obtained from. That demand equates to you thinking you deserve to obtain the reward without playing the content, whether or not now you go back and changing your mind about using the term “deserve” or not.

Nike.2631:

BaconofPigs.1683:

5%

So around 120 extra points of Toughness (armor and toughness being interchangeable).

Seems like it might come up in a constant damage environment.

uh it did.

BaconofPigs.1683:

You take 1,988 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 1,821 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 1,904 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 2,205 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 1,861 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 2,102 dmg from Magic Aura

OMGOMGOMOGMGOMGOMG My ele only has 11645 hp…..

I think the guard in my team only took 1.6k per pulse.

Ohoni.6057:

You may continue to push for alternatives but purposely misrepresenting information is considered as trolling.

Ok, but I’m not doing that, so it isn’t really relevant to anything.

Actually you did repeatedly. Such as

Actually, I didn’t. I said it was " sort of endgame equipment, in that it’s not available until the last 10-15 levels," which is factually correct.

It’s not. Exotic was never meant to be endgame after two months since the release. Putting it “sort of endgame equipment” is misleading.

I also pointed out that it was the highest level gear for the first full year of the game, which is also true, so it was as close to “endgame gear” as the game had up to that point.

You can’t equip common lv 80 equipment if you’re not level 80. It doesn’t make common the highest tier, same concept, you can’t equip lv 80 exotic without being level 80, doesn’t make exotic the highest tier.

And the infamous “promise of no vertical progression” that as well is misrepresenting the game.

No no no, it was YOU who said that – and i paraphrase – “they promise no vertical progression” in fact they NEVER did. It was you who misrepresent information. They did promise us vertical progression and they DELIVERED vertical progression.

But don’t whine about it if they do.

They won’t

Ohoni.6057:

Perhaps, you should learn how read. Here is the original message:

No, but actually gear requires knowledge of either crafting and / or gameplay.

See? where you go wrong? Or should I point out? _ either crafting_ (which wouldn’t have anything to do with raiding, please learn to read)

Yes, but we were talking about it as a prerequisite for being “raid ready.” What use is “knowledge of crafting” inside the raid? If you’re going to use owning Ascended armor as a qualification for playing raids, then the assumption is that the skills it brings would be useful in the raid, not just random crafting skills.

You purposely leave out the other half of the sentence when you quote. See? Trolling?

Ohoni.6057:

Do you understand the process or software development? Rings and Trinkets came out first because it’s merely a 2D graphic pictures of the items.

It did not take them a year to made the models for the ascended weapons, when they put out a dozen or so weapon sets in the same year. It did not take them even longer to make the three armor sets. Those things take time, they do not take remotely that much time.

You don’t know their internal software development process. You don’t know how long it takes to make the models nor how long it takes to design and execute those plans. It would have just been on the table together with many other projects. It doesn’t nullify the point that they have planned it since the beginning.

Ohoni.6057:

Unless they change it. Period.

Yup and that is why most of your posts demand Anet to give out rewards for undeserving gameplay. Which guess what will happen?

5%

Ohoni.6057:

You were claiming that having Ascended armor reflected a knowledge of the game that would be relevant to raiding. I was merely pointing out that having Ascended armor reflects absolutely nothing beyond that you have it. The primary method of acquiring Ascended armor is gold, and you can acquire that without any knowledge of the game.

Perhaps, you should learn how read. Here is the original message:

No, but actually gear requires knowledge of either crafting and / or gameplay.

See? where you go wrong? Or should I point out? _ either crafting_ (which wouldn’t have anything to do with raiding, please learn to read)

and / or gameplay. hm, how would you earn ascended armors/weapons without having to craft? Maybe if you play the game yourself you’ll find out. I won’t tell you.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes I know only rings came out 2 months after release. But the tier itself has EXISTED at that time. If anyone would ever have thought that they would only release rings and not the rest would have been delusional.

And yet ANET believed that at the time. They did not intend to every release Ascended weapons and armor until far down the line from there. If they had ever intended to release both, then they likely would have done so within a few months of launch, not a year later.

You don’t know that. In fact they did intend the very release of ascended weapons and armors at the latest November 2012 if not October or even September during release. Do you understand the process or software development? Rings and Trinkets came out first because it’s merely a 2D graphic pictures of the items. When Ascended rings came out, which was planned before November, probably in September, the tier already existed. The reason why weapons and armors came so late because of 3D graphics, planning and all the software development process. Maybe taking CompSci 101 in college would help you understand how it works.

Ohoni.6057:

Or I can continue to push for alternatives until they are provided. At the moment, that seems to be the better solution for me, but you’re free to pursue any solution you choose.

You may continue to push for alternatives but purposely misrepresenting information is considered as trolling. Like you said that exotic were end game equipment. The tier itself never was considered end game as of November 16, 2012. And the infamous “promise of no vertical progression” that as well is misrepresenting the game.

Also any other alternatives would be considered as giving out something Legendary as undeserving rewards. You can’t have the cake and eat it too.

Just a friendly touch of reality to you just in case you were one of those who believed that ascended weapons/armor wouldn’t come after the rings came out on November 2012, exclusivity rewards have always been a thing in both Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2:

No one is excluded to anything unless they don’t play the proper content

This has been the philosophy of Anet. The majority of forum posters agree with this philosophy – remember the RP explosion when the original flamekiss armor was release? It’s good for the game.

Freebies and undeserving rewards are bad for the game.

Ohoni.6057:

No, I’m saying that I have legitimate interests in the game, and they aren’t necessarily in conflict with yours. So long as I’m allowed to not raid, while still being able to advance towards earning Legendary Precursors, then I have no reason to comment on raiding, it can do whatever it wants.

I’m sure if you compete in World Tournament Series pvp after HoT comes out and earn world first or second place in the pvp tournament, they’ll hand you a full legendary armor set. No need for the precursor. There you go, alternate but not necessarily easier.

Or you can just do the content as they are intended for the players to do and earn the proper reward

Ohoni.6057:

Different functions though. And if raids really are too hard, and if players are required to participate in them to earn Legendary Armor, then there will be demands that the difficulty be lowered You can’t eat your cake and have it too, if you want raids to be the only place to earn Legendary armor then they need to be easy enough that everyone can do it, right?

Again, if a player doesn’t do the proper content – regardless of reason -, that player doesn’t deserve the appropriate corresponding reward, there is nothing wrong with that. I realize that is a cold but necessarily fair observation to the game and to life in general. You don’t do it, you don’t earn it. Period.

Ohoni.6057:

So you’re saying that if you had to choose between a player who is a level 500 crafter, but has barely left Lion’s Arch, and a player who is not a level 500 crafter, but has beaten Liadri, every dungeon, every world boss, but does not own a single piece of Ascended armor, you would choose the former player over the latter? Good luck with that raid group.

Again another trolling message. You purposely place a strawman a hypothetical situation here to be beaten down. No I would not have chosen either. Have full ascended is one of the many prerequisites. Beaten Liadri? Every dungeon? Every world boss? Please. Pieces of cakes.

As Anet said, Raids are not meant for pugs. So neither ones of your hypothetical players qualifies. To raid, you would probably need to either

A. Join a raiding guild in which you probably have to be gear checked with full ascended on two professions and be TRIALED for full proficiency which will clear raids in speed records and everyone going to have fun.

B. Join a large PvX guild and wait for your turn to be semi-carried / taught how to play correctly. Or if you’re good you can demonstrate that and lead a raid group. Depending on the guild, either case having exotic armor would be ok.

C. Not raid.

Yes I know only rings came out 2 months after release. But the tier itself has EXISTED at that time. If anyone would ever have thought that they would only release rings and not the rest would have been delusional. They did say they planned to release the rest (amulets, trinkets, weapons and then armor) at that time.

Ohoni.6057:

If ascended had been available at release, would people still be having complaints about it?

There would probably have been less complaint, but there still would have been some level of demand that the costs associated in them would be reduced. See, a lot of people over the past few years didn’t complain too loudly about the costs because they understood that the armor was entirely unnecessary in the existing content. The only people that actually needed it were the handful that would run high level Fractals, and they were gluttons for punishment anyways or they wouldn’t be running high level Fractals. But now they are being promoted as something semi-necessary for one of the major features of HoT, so people care more.

You can’t run before you can walk yo! High level fractals are going to be easy comparing to raids. If realize that ascended armors are necessary for fractals then you should have realized that it would be necessary for raids and there is nothing wrong with that.

Ohoni.6057:

If you don’t want me to be a part of the conversation, then there is a fairly simple solution, help to advocate alternative options for earning Precursor armor outside of raids, so that I’d no longer have any reason to bother with them, then you can make raids whatever you want them to be. You can’t eat your cake and have it too.

Is that a threat that you are saying you will create trolling and flaming posts if your demands are not met? You’re trying to blackmail the devs or forum posters, aren’t you?

You just want an easier options. Alternate means easier period. In a finite set with an ordering where elements are unique, maximality implies uniqueness of such maximal element. The raids are set to be the maximal difficulty. Any other options are by default easier options. There is no such thing as “alternate but not easier” options. Hence, by demanding “alternate options” whether you include “easier” or “not easier” it doesn’t matter, it would have to be easier.

Ohoni.6057:

Gearing is zero reflection of player capability.

No, but actually gear requires knowledge of either crafting and / or gameplay. I’m sorry but Ohoni it seems you just got the game recently. We’ll be willing to help you out learning how to craft gears or earn some money to make standard equipment if you ask nicely instead of making demands for free stuffs.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m sorry, have you ever heard of Guild Wars 2 before today?

and yet Ascended gear wasn’t even conceived until months after launch. . .

This shows here that you just began playing the game recently. Ascended tiers have come out within 2 months of the game launch. In the span of 39 months it has lived, I’m sure exotic has never been conceived as highest ever in the 37 months previously. So please if you come into the game recently here’s a good article to read about tiers in this game. Welcome to the game

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_equipment

Palador.2170:

BaconofPigs.1683:

Misquoted at best. The devs were referring dynamic scaling system where you are downscale proportionally according to your gear and levels down to the level of the contents. There is no scaling at level 80 -except for base stat scaling- in fractal and wvw.

Until now, there’s never really been a reason for there to be any. If there is or not now is kind of the entire question here.

I can see some solid merits to it, but I’m still going to say that I oppose the idea in the end. I just want people to think about it before they decide, because what raiders get in these raids may be what they’re stuck with, for good or bad. And if enough people dismiss raids as having too high of a gate for entry and never even try them, then that’s going to be bad for raiders.

It literally takes about 1 month to deck yourself in full ascended. I’ve done it. Like my second full ascended set I actually got for free (except the 10g for the ascended accessory parts plus some material costs for sigils and runes and stuffs)

And I personally don’t think a new player just getting to lv 80 on his second day of play should be ready for raid tbh. Hence the gating. Artificial yes but really ascended has been out since 2 months after the game launch. It has been set as highest tier since the beginning.

Palador.2170:

Coulter.2315:

From another thread but I think its important everyone sees how Ohoni thinks, do not let him influence raid design. He doesn’t give a kitten about raiding.

A lot of so-called raiders don’t actually care about raids, either. They care about being “better” than others, or getting loot faster. Give them a challenge with poor loot, or a way to bypass it entirely to get the loot, and watch what happens. They’ll face it once or twice, then avoid it at all costs.

I’m not going to say that I agree with Ohoni, but it would be foolish to just dismiss the input they’re providing without looking it over and thinking about it.

Of course, the reward should correspond to the effort. A player farming for 10000 hours in silver waste can’t even compare to 1% of the effort beating a difficult raid. The reward should be at least a thousand times better.

Palador.2170:

BaconofPigs.1683:

One of the major features of GW2 is that we DO have end game equipment thank you. The entire game of guild wars 2 is all endgame is your opinion of it. Not fact.

That’s actually a remark made by one of the devs. He’s just repeating it. I’d say the remark has merit.

Misquoted at best. The devs were referring dynamic scaling system where you are downscale proportionally according to your gear and levels down to the level of the contents. There is no scaling at level 80 -except for base stat scaling- in fractal and wvw.

kirima san.3760:

Ohoni.6057:

So why should someone with free armor be able to come to the most difficult part of the game without any effort?

Presumably because they want to..

Because you ask the question, I assume you disagree, so let me ask, why shouldn’t someone with free armor be able to come to the most difficult part of the game without any effort?

In games and most certainly MMOs you’resupposed to work yourself up. It is a game, not a movie. It is supposed to challenge you.

Gear grind and content challenge are two completely different things. You can have either without the other.

Tell me an MMO or game in the world where you get everything at level 1 and where you can instantly go to the last boss “because you bought the game”.

None that I can think of, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.

Why buy a game if you want to put no effort at all into it? Better go watch it on youtube or buy a movie, those play themselves without any effort.

Its just like the AR in fractals, it is there to make sure the players that reach the most difficult fractal 50 actually know what they are doing and played the easier versions of it before. You already played all these easy simple dungeons, you should have some money, gear and skill to get by. Imagine the pain of LFG fractal 50 where you 90% of time get a first time guy that runs in and wipes all the time. You play with people at your level, low or high.

Plus, ascended armor is no point in getting as the stats increase is so super small anyhow, and the rings and earrings which actually may matter, you practically also get for free with the daily login laurels.

Basically youre complaining about a prooven non-issue (ascended that matters is easy to get and peopel did it with almost no ascended), while seeming to forget what a game is and that it is for all sorts of people, not just you.

Exactly. What the OP wants is a skyrim type of gear generation. ~ player.additem Eternity 001. Why work of the gear while you can just convince the dev to give you a console command to generate the items right?

Ohoni.6057:

You’re right for the first time. You said it yourself here. Exotic armor is beginning game equipment. It’s not end game. If a person doesn’t have end game equipment, then it’s not the dev’s fault that they sometimes get excluded from end game party.

Well, it’s sort of endgame equipment, in that it’s not available until the last 10-15 levels, and even then you aren’t likely to bother with it until you hit 80, but you seem to think that there should be “endgame equipment,” that this should be a thing anyone should care about.

One of the major features of GW2 is that we don’t have to care about what you refer to as “endgame equipment,” that the entire game of GW2 is ALL endgame.

It doesn’t matter whether I seem to think that there should be “endgame equipment” or not. There is end game equipment, that is ascended. Period. In a game where there is vertical progression which Guild Wars 2 is one, one of the end goals would be to obtain end game equipment i.e., ascended or legendary if you care more about the aesthetic aspect.

One of the major features of GW2 is that we DO have end game equipment thank you. The entire game of guild wars 2 is all endgame is your opinion of it. Not fact.

Also there is no sort of. There is or there isn’t. Exotic is never meant to be end game. Just like rare, masterwork, fine, common none of which are end game equipment. Ascended is.

Ohoni.6057:

They practically do. I mean Exotic armor is pretty much nothing to acquire. And they hand you plenty of rare armor as you level as leveling rewards.

You’re right for the first time. You said it yourself here. Exotic armor is beginning game equipment. It’s not end game. If a person doesn’t have end game equipment, then it’s not the dev’s fault that they sometimes get excluded from end game party.

Ohoni.6057:

Sorry if I was unclear, “no vertical progression beyond endgame.” The idea was that you would hit endgame, be able to acquire Exotic armor easily enough, and it would be your Forever Armor, never to be surpassed.

Lies. There was no promised that when you hit end game then the armor you easily buy with 2g from the tp would be your “Forever Armor” there was no forever armor in citation. QUOTE YOUR SOURCES. There was no promise of a non vertical progression beyond exotic. The fact is that you can’t quote your sources heavily implies that you just made your position and spread lies in the forum.

Ohoni.6057:

They did make a lie of this promise in relatively short order with the introduction of Ascended armor, but since Exotic was plenty good for any of the content in the game, and Ascended was only marginally better anyways, players would do perfectly fine without it.

No they never came out and said you won’t ever need ascended armor or ascended trinkets/weapons in future content. Again quote your sources with links to original articles. You can do 99% of current end game contents NAKED. Exotic? Whatever. It doesn’t mean the Dev said won’t need armors/weapons/trinkets.

Again stop spreading lies. You have no sources. There was no promised that nothing would be beyond exotic. There was no promise of no vertical progression. Stop the lies.

Ohoni.6057:

Now since then, they have slowly made Ascended more important, a bit like putting a frog in a pot of water and slowly bringing it to boil, rather than trying to drop him into an already boiling pot. They started with only Ascended trinkets, and only the hit of ascended trinkets, so players could take heart that they would only end up a few stat points behind for lack of them. Then they added weapons, then armor. They have increased the value of gear stats in scaling, so that players in Ascended are more likely to notice the Exotic/Ascended difference, and now they are adding content that is more likely to leave you at a razor’s edge of pass/fail, where a 10% damage difference might allow you to kill the thing 10% faster, meaning if you fail it and he has 5% life left, that might have been the problem.

The only “end game” equipment quality IS ASCENDED / Legendary. If don’t pursue the end game equipment and use “mid game” equipment like exotic, it is your fault for not pursuing end game equipment to begin with. It’s not the dev’s fault or the content fault.

Ohoni.6057:

“They make a lie of that if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids,” This is a fragmented sentence. If ascended gear is going to… so what? You don’t follow an “if” with a “but” what’s your point?

Whether you disagree with the point being made, it is a complete sentence. Do I have to break down the structure for you? I’m a bit long out of middle school for that, but I can take a crack at it. Would it help if I shifted the begining and end of it, “if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids, [then] they make a lie of that [‘that’ in this case referring to the previous commitment to no gear grind].”

It’s not my problem when you write gibberish throwing away words and expect people to understand your sentence. The onus is on you when you write the sentence to have people understand it. Learn to write is the first thing kids in middle school do you know.

Yeah we know who they are. They’ve been creation threads periodically sometimes 2-3 threads by the same people, spreading lies and misinformation.

Ohoni.6057:

There is not reason top it off. It shows people who has it EARNED IT

But one of the core promises of this game was that there would be no vertical progression, that you would not never better than exotic gear in order to be able to do any content in the game. They make a lie of that if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids, but they can make that right by removing that stat difference.

These statements themselves are lies. Quote your sources. " there would be no vertical progression," where does that come from? The MERE existence of White → Fine → Masterwork → Rare → Exotic → Ascended tiers since the creation of the game (2 months after creation of the game count as the same time period as the creation of the game) Ascended gears have existed since. We have vertical progression. They NEVER EVER promised no vertical progression. They promised NO CONTINUAL NON STOP vertical progression.

“They make a lie of that if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids,” This is a fragmented sentence. If ascended gear is going to… so what? You don’t follow an “if” with a “but” what’s your point?

Ohoni.6057:

On top of all that its +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat there will be VERY few, to the point of almost impossible, groups who will fail to get a kill eventually with such a tiny stat difference.

So let’s take that concern off the table by making that difference not exist.

There is not reason top it off. It shows people who has it EARNED IT

Ohoni.6057:

Thank you, that is a perfect example of the sort of toxic behavior that could obliterate this game if left unchecked.

The only toxic behavior here comes from troll threads and post made by people who only believe they are ENTITLED to everything because they bought the game. And we don’t want such entitlement.

You take 1,988 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 1,821 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 1,904 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 2,205 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 1,861 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 2,102 dmg from Magic Aura

OMGOMGOMOGMGOMGOMG My ele only has 11645 hp…..

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Palador.2170:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Edit: it’s also a loss to those who don’t yet have a personal bank guild. How are they supposed to get enough favor to unlock vaults for their own personal use? I both repped and bought influence to get all 3 vault levels. As I understand it, it’s going to be much harder for people to get what I now have.

I’m only at two levels, but I got it the same way. And I’ve been wondering that myself, as well as wondering if we’re going to start seeing personal/bank guilds up for sale after this hits. It’s going to cost some Favor and 100 gold just to get the chance to have a guild hall. After that, it seems you’ll have to develop the mine, and gather more resources and favor before you can start on the bank. A full three levels of the guild vault will likely require upgrading some of the other parts of the hall first. A personal guild like yours may soon become a valuable commodity. If not for someone looking for a personal bank, than for any guild wanting to jump past a lot of the work of setting up their hall to where they can have full storage.

Yeah I was wondering about the guilds being sold also. If it’s as hard as I suspect, I wouldn’t be surprised to see this happen or people advertising to buy personal guilds.

Once I read about the new system I made sure to buy enough influence to finish the vaults and get those week long builds done and anyone who wants all 3 vaults should think about doing the same before launch.

Kinda late if you start now unless you want to spend hundreds of gold. If you started 2-3 weeks ago, you’ll make it by the time of the expansion.

But back to the topic: here is ANet’s definition of a guild:

“Guilds are formal groupings of players that enable them to play together more effectively and reward them for doing so.”

Some players here insist on using a dictionary definition of a group: here it is:

“1. two or more figures forming a complete unit in a composition”

So under this definition, 2 players qualify as a group. Or

“2. a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationship”

where a “number” here is assumed supposedly to be a positive integer, in which 1 is the smallest of such, then yes under definition 2, 1 person can also classify as a group. You may argue semantically the plurality of the word “individuals” in this context, but 2 players definitely form a group, hence a guild.

We can push as far as mathematical groups, which, actually allow for any nonempty set of elements, in this case, people, which implies one person will qualify as a group (take the binary operation to be – communication )

Now,

1. The game let you create a guild with only one person, which means the game allow the existence of such guilds whether you me or anyone argue semantically all days whether such can be called a guild – it doesn’t matter. It exists. Such guilds are ALLOWED to EXIST.

2. What plans/goals/wants OP has for his guild whether it consists of one person or two or 500 is irrelevant.

3. If the rule of the game is fair, which it should be, then with at least proportional efforts, it should let what a structure with 500 elements can do the same way a structure with 1 element can do. What the OP argues for here is: somewhat seems to be an unfair rule.

“Let x be the numbers of players of said guild. If x > 2 and x is present at so and so, then objective is checked and success.”

Now whether if x < 3 is capable of success is irrelevant here.

What he argues for is the removal of the arbitrary x >2. Why 3 minimum? Why not 4? Why not 501? The game allow 1 person guild to exist, yet it arbitrarily outright stop such structure from obtaining an objective.

Daharahj.1325:

Lol, the lecture was unnecessary.

You’re telling me merging paths in AC was something ANet intended? what about outright skipping entire jumping puzzles with teleports? or doing something in completely unpredictable ways like the arms seals in the colossus fractals. This isn’t about perspective, it’s about their lack of foresight and the burden of knowledge new players have to go through before being eligible by elitists to join their groups, which is what this thread is all about.

Personally I would be upset if they forced us to take the long route without adding better rewards, but making it an even ground would be fairer for all, and certainly less frustrating for new players.

No, Miku never actually said anything about AC merging.

1. That’s an exploit and most speedrunners won’t do it and
2. You actually get about 45 LESS silvers and 40 LESS tokens for doing combined. No it doesn’t change the fact that’s its an exploit nor making but because less reward ppl just do path 1 and 2 and skip path 3 due to time-gated events. Not to mention it actually takes longer than path 1&2 separate if the person setting it up is bad/slow.

What’s miku’s talking about are different strategies: for example:

Spider queen:

• pug strat: kill the spiderlings, jump down, kill the heads, ranger: shoot a arrow, shoot another arrow, shoot another arrow… spawn the queen, group wipe, try again 5 mins later: queen dead
• regular strat: go straight to the spawn spot, ele LS, freeze, dps, it’s dead moving on.

Next graveling groups:

• pug strat: stack at the corner of the door, dps, getting knocked down, getting blown up everywhere, blame the dps. finally it’s dead
• regular strat: shadow refuge, thief shadow steps, disable the trap, moving on.

Kohler:

• pug strat: everyone runs up the left stairs, stack at corner, lure kohler, kohler came, it spins, everyone down, blame the guard, blame the dps, finally kohler dead
• regular strat: everyone go right, get ready at stairs, go in ele LS, freeze, guard wall, dps, kohler dead.

etc etc etc.

yup, if you sign up for any guild that would attempt raids now, gear check through gw2efficiency with at least minimum 2 characters in full ascended weapon and trinket and at least berserker/assassin/sinister exotic armors. its the standard now. if you don’t like it you’re welcome to join a guild that doesn’t require it and has little to no chance of success in raid.

and if anyone believe its a gear treadmill it’s false. its not. ascended has came out since the beginning. it’s been 2 years and if you can’t afford it then you’re not playing the intended progression correctly.

for new players, u can get ascended weapon + full trinket sets in just one month of playing for one hour a day. easy. before that one month, raid would be the last thing a new player would want to worry about, maybe learn the mechanic of the game and progress their character to BiS gear first.

thisisit.6954:

Great. missed out because I trusted what I was told.

No, you didn’t miss out anything. That was an oversight. Anyone and any guild who did and going to do guild mission between Saturday reset to Monday can be considered abusing an exploit.

Relshdan.6854:

BaconofPigs.1683:

laokoko.7403:

Dont’ even make sense, exotic and ascended stats difference is so minor.

If it require ascended. It’ll really require meta group composition.

No, it’s not the primary stat difference that makes the difference. It’s the weapons strength and base defense from the armor both are 10% flat from exotic that makes the difference. So someone is full ascended will have ~12% damage increase and +~12% survival rating than someone who doesn’t.

looking at the build calculator…its more like 5% weapon base damage and much less for armor rating (50-ish total armor difference is completely negligible).

honestly, ascended armor is a complete waste of time/money. only the weapons and trinkets are worth making/buying.

You’re right, my bad. Weapon strength and defense gain are +5% not 10% sorry.

JSmooth.7654:

BaconofPigs.1683:

First, there is no treadmill. Ascended gears have been and always have been and will ever be the top of the line gear in this game…

I hate to burst your bubble. But when Ascended gear was released, they stated that they had no plans to add another tier of gear. They never said that they would NEVER do it. They stated that Legendary gear will always be top tier.

Edit: spelling =P

And legendary is still top tier, equal with ascended (with cosmetic difference and stat-swapability) They haven’t added new tier above ascended