Guild Wars 2

Funny thing happened to me on the way through the Mists…

Lets see how bad GSword really is…

30/30/0/0/10

240K hp @ 2600 Armor, Solo
Sword/Sword was 4137DPS
Gsword, max range w/PS spam 3934DPS

2x Phantasms off the bat, pushed to 3x and replaced with their respectively correct phantasm as soon as it was available.

Hrmm..?

Obvious advantages go to melee in range of group buffs but..

IDK

Blood~

I’m a proponent for Zerker runs. But I enjoy GW2 so much because of the sheer number of builds you can mess with. I will never kick a pug for any build they run.

GW2 is absolutely an MMORPG, it fits the definition perfectly.

I do miss the days of Everquest and Ascherons Call, when people played for fun and were happy to reach out over the internet to like minded gamers. Since the popularity of MMO’s has risen so much we get all sorts of jerks here now but there’s not much we can do about it.

Find a guild with some good people, run whatever build you want. Support is alive and well in WvW too. I will take my support Guard buddy over an elitist jerk Zerker any day. I will never stop hoping he goes full Zerker some day though

Blood~

Aza.2105:

Is scepter power trait worth taking?

If you’re building a Scepter DPS build then yes. I’ve been enjoying a 20/25/0/25/0 GSword and Scepter/Focus build lately. I’ll switch between the scepter and GSword trait depending on the challenge.

What I’ve seen…

Scepter shows the highest single target damage with or without UC, all things being equal. The problem here is that you have to land Smite which means the target must be stationary. Also any mobs in front of your target will eat the auto attack instead of your intended target. So in practice it’s prolly on par with most other weapons depending on the situation.

Torch is a great weapon if you have to maintain Burning. Torch4 is a DPS increase if it crits. Torch5 is a DPS loss on single targets but is your only AoE in a Sc/T build. If burning is kept up by the group then Focus and Shield win out.

On a side note Mace does quite good damage, on par with Sword if Protectors Strike is used quickly as a damaging ability.

This comes from my personal in game testing. I urge people to test and make their own conclusions.

Blood~

Run Static Discharge alongside Grenades for a good damage increase. Also, if you’re adding 10 to 20 stack of vulnerability you can take credit for the % increase of 4 other people

In an attempt to defend Engi’s low ranking I’m posting some info here. Since this is the Guardian forums I will spoiler it.

Engineer 14K DPS?

Blood~

9K is low.

Grenades, Bombs and Rifle all built with Static Discharge are on par with other DPS. In my actual testing Bombs preform the best but if you take out the Vulnerability stacks Rifle/SD is a bit higher but don’t supply Vulnerability. Also, These builds are on par with Guard GSword for DPS in these tests. Not sure how they all scale up though as GK calculates with every possible buff.

In practice Grenades/SD should perform at the same level as Guard GSword and give Vulnerability for the group. If you already have higher Vulnerability Rifle/SD will push more DPS. Bombs are the happy medium.

Blood~

SD acts a little strange. Certain toolbelt skills are dependent on your weapon but have a high value if you’re holding no weapons. Some seem not be linked to a weapon. Some change with kits equipped. I’ve tried to figure it out but then I stopped. Steady weapons don’t give you ‘steady’ SD so its even hard to figure out coefficients.

I haven’t tested ranger in PvE but a 10/30/0/0/30 Rifle/SD build is right up there with other classes DPS builds so It’s viable. I think Rifle auto is lower because we get more smaller damaging abilities on our toolbelt.

Blood~

For Mace/Shield Tanky survival with some DPS I’d run a 10/30/0/30/0 build. This gives you almost full time Protection with shield, Protectors Strike and Shouts. Boon duration helps alot here. Thought Runes of Earth gave 20% Prot duration, says 15% in the calc.

This build will mitigate 43% incoming damage off the top. If you run Knights armor you’ll have more mitigation or you can run Zerker n you’re still very tanky. Use Protectors Strike before combat as you’re running in before you get hit.

If you switch around some gear and traits you can run this as DPS and you can optimize it for any weapon. From what I’ve tested most weapons will output similar DPS if built right, this build will do best with Sword and GSword I think.

I’ve done a lot of testing and trying to max out damage. Best I’ve gotten so far is 30/10/0/0/30 Zerker Rifle/Grenade/SD with Rifle Turret, Elixir Gun, Grenade Kit and Supply Drop. For a rotation use Grenades as your go-to damage dealer, swap quickly to Rifle 3 n 5, EG 4 and hit your toolbelts on cooldown.

The most consistent way I’ve found to test is to hit the Mists and find the Indestructible Golem. It has 80K hp on its bar. I usually take my builds for a spin there. ‘Kill’ it three times consecutively without pause, take 240K HP divided by ‘Seconds to Kill’ and you have your DPS. Then you can factor things in and out like Confusion, Retaliation, Vulnerability and such. Some things are hard to factor but it gives you somewhat of a sense of the DPS from build to build. I haven’t found a spreadsheet that I fully trust for calculations, this seems to be the most accurate view IMHO. Obviously you’ll have different situations in PvE so its just a comparative value.

I tend not to rely on Conditions much as they can get overwritten easily in PvE.

GL
Blood~

I prefer my PvE to be Power based DPS.

I’ll use a 10/30/0/0/30 Rifle/Static Discharge build. Easy to run without a ton of micromanagement. For best DPS try to hit Rifle3 n 5, TK3, EG4 and Toolbelts on cooldown. EG4 is good on stationary targets, otherwise run PBR or Goggles.

Or

I run 30/10/0/0/30 Bombs/Grenades n Static Discharge. This throws out a good amount of Vulnerability. Switch to Rifle for 3 n 5, TK for 3 and use your Toolbelts for damage. Grenades aren’t the easiest but they keep Vulnerability going. Switch to Bombkit and trait for them for easier damage also.

Both builds do competetive damage. Grenades/Bombs will help the party out a bit more with Vulnerability.

If Zerker is too squishy try Knights armor n orbs.

GL
Blood~

Most weapons are very similar in damage output if built right, choose the ones you like n run with um. Staff is lowest, Hammer is a bit lower than the rest but not by much and it gives some nice benefits.

Zerker is doable, I mix in 2 pcs of soldiers for a bit more HP if I’m not running Honor.

GL out there

Blood~

Mr. panel,

Do you have a comprehension problem?

As I stated, 10/30/0/30/0 will prolly have lower dps then the highest dps builds. You also stated it has less ‘survivability’ which I disagree with. You’ve stated that Vitality is worthless without Toughness in previous posts, which is wrong also. Please fully read my posts before you make a fool of yourself.

I am not trying to push anything. I was just proving you wrong about Toughness vs Vitality.

I’m looking forward to the 10/15 patch with fury… Please don’t bring future patches into this. We’re talking about the current game.

What truth am I trying to avoid? That AH/MF is great but not necessarily needed to play the game?

I’m not arguing for survivability or DPS as best in show. I’m showing you that 300 toughness is not equal to 300 vitality at this level. I don’t want people to think that AH/MF is the only good build out there.

I personally run Soldiers Back and Amulet. That’s why you see my effective health at what I stated. Hence the statement ‘with my current gear’ applies.

Seriously. Please figure out what you’re arguing so we can have a civil conversation.

I have always been arguing that a 10/25/x/x/x build will do more DPS then a x/x/30/30/x build. Nothing more.

I’m sorry if you have to do mental gymnastics.. Its not that hard to see what I’m arguing..

I’m not asserting that my view of the class is right or absolute. But you should step back for a second and take a look at yours.

All of my comments are geared towards PvE content. Not WvW or PvP, in which case AH/MF potentially holds a lot more value.

Blood~

DeathPanel.8362:

Also, regarding his 10/30/0/30/0 build. That actually has LESS dps and even less survivability than 10/30/30/0/0 because you lose up to 450 toughness, and 30% crit damage from not taking valor. (Sure you gain vit and healing but vit is useless when you have low armor)

So the bottom line is, the trade offs are simply not worth it as I’ve shown.

Survivability is relative to the player.

You haven’t shown or proven anything other than your love for AH n MF.

You haven’t quantified ‘survivability’. In a 10/30/30/0/0 build with my current gear my effective health is 16654 with a HP pool of 12k. In a 10/30/0/30/0 build my effective health is 18364 with a 15K HP pool. It seems that Vitality outweighs Toughness at this level and if you use Effective Health as your empirical evidence Vitality wins out.

10/30/0/30/0 is a good build with versatility, survivability and utility. Prolly somewhere around 10% lower damage then top end dps builds. Its a nice smooth ride.

That is a great build that GfC posted. I do a few things differently though. I use Rifle Turret, Toolkit and just started messing with Elixir Gun.

EG4 throws down a lot of damage but its stationary which would be better for PvE. It also brings some utility and healing to the build. It will give more sustained DPS then Goggles and damage from EG4 is just a bit higher then other damaging SD setups.

In PvP I like to use PBR over Goggles. That extra CC comes in handy after you get good with it.

SD is a fun build with Rifle. Easily competitive with other DPS setups. Only thing it lacks is Vulnerability that bombs n grenades supply.

Blood~

NoTrigger.8396:

ele deals most dps if you are looking for the highest dps profession

Tested that also, on par with other classes. Do you have any numbers or data? What build is used?

stemare.2578:

There is no way with any class to do half DPS that GS/Axe warriors can do, …

Sauzo.6821:

And comparing any DPS to warrior DPS is unfair since we all know, warriors are the golden children of Anet.

Strictly speaking single target sustained DPS, in the scenario that I’ve been testing under, Guards and most every other class are competitive with Warriors in DPS if built for it. Zerker setup with optimized traits for each weapon my Guard numbers show as being on par with Warrior. For example Warrior 30/0/0/10/30 Axe/Axe and Axe/Mace is just about exactly the same as Guard 10/30/30/0/0 Sword/Torch. Warrior 30/25/0/0/10 GSword is right in line with Guard 20/25/0/25/0 GSword.

The reason for posting this is to find an accurate answer, not to start a war vs guard debate or talk about survivability or viability. Just raw DPS potential.

Do you guys have actual DPS data, not derived from spreadsheet calculations but actual play?

I started testing because I’m a DPS kitten and wanted the highest DPS class. I didn’t want to level a Warrior. My findings tell me that if you build dps, excluding a few builds on a few classes, most everything is pretty close.

Are Warriors much better with might/vuln scaling than other classes?

Again, I’m just looking for accurate data, not a flame war or anything.

Thanks,

Blood~

Haralin.1473:

Do it and dont give up early, engi is a late bloomer. Try some builds an find your way to play, the possibility is there.

only negative Points are:

ascended weapon damage effects NOT the kits
Backpacks get overritten by the Kitpacks if you switch to it.
Many Leatherarmor fits not the style of an engi
Bugs to fix but that is in every class
it need time to master this class (this must not be a negative point)
not so good in GvG Fight no stability (this may change with the October Update)

The learning curve is steep but its very rewarding, so like Haralin said stick with it.

The fact that Ascended Weapons don’t effect kits is a big one. However Devs did state something about that at one point so I’m crossing my fingers that we get an increase.

I believe they’re changing backpack views next patch, maybe.

There is still the Magitech and Aetherblade armor skins on the TP if you want to spend gems on some nice engineer looks.

If you’re starting out I would suggest taking 20 in Tools for Speedy Kits and the ability to switch into Static Discharge when working a heart. Rifle w/ Bombs, Toolkit and Rifle Turret should make leveling pretty quick. Stay away from Grenades till lvl 60. Other than that experiment with everything you can. I have around 300 Hours on my Engi and I feel I’m just scratching the surface.

Blood~

I switch it up all the time honestly. 10/30/30/0/0 is very fun and challenging and I run it mostly with 1h weapons. 10/30/0/30/0 has more versatility, survivability and utility, run it when I wanna switch between all weapons. 25/25/0/20/0 for Hammer. 20/25/0/25/0 for GSword. 10/30/0/20/10 for reflects. At this point I rarely stay in one build for long as all of them are fun.

The best build in the game is the one you have the most fun with and allows your party to complete the run. AH is just fine too, I run with another guard a lot who uses it, and I enjoy running with him. I’m a DPS kitten so those are my preferred builds.

PS crits for 5k to 5.5k

Crap, that one stack of might just invalidated my claim I bet.

Nah, I’m done here. Anyone that views this thread can come to their own conclusion. If you don’t want to be self informed then I’m not gonna give you anymore. Anyone who has tried it knows what it can do so I don’t feel the need to justify myself. If you want to sit there and assume things then be my guest. It shows what kind of a player you are.

DeathPanel.8362:

Bloodgruve.6038:

/sigh

5300 dmg on a 2600 armor target. If I can proc that quickly even every 20 seconds that’s an increase of 265 DPS. If you watch the target you’ll know when to trigger it to damage as the target swings. In this specific scenario Mace only needs an increase of just over 100 DPS to pull ahead of GSword, PS gives it that. I honestly don’t care for spread sheet calculations, I haven’t found one that I feel is accurate enough to use. If people say GSword is the best then why the hell can I kill stuff as fast or faster with other weapons?

In reality its a function of player skill and attention in combat. Most weapons are so dam close you can run whatever weapon loadout you want for DPS and be competitive with the right builds.

I call shenanigans.

You are free to post a screenshot of when you did 5.3k damage with PS. (If you somehow had 25 might stacks and it crit maybe, but not under any normal circumstances)

Go to Orr, or the Mists, or any lvl 80 zone, run up to a mob with protectors strike qued up n let them hit you.

5.3k crit with no Might in the mists on Chieftain. I run high crit so it very rarely doesn’t crit. I’ve seen 8K+ PS aoe crits, its a dps ability if used as one.

How can you argue this stuff if you don’t know what it does?

DeathPanel.8362:

Sutcliffe.5491:

Lol. Your logic is faulty. What matters most is that how fast the damage can be unleashed on the monster and not the cooldown because during cooldown of weapon skills, u can still use other attacks.

That’s the point. A majority of the overall damage done in any given time segment is NOT going to be PS with mace.

If over a given duration only a tiny % of the overall damage is done by PS then it would be an insignificant factor in determining the overall dps worthiness of a weapon.

It would certainly not make any meaningful difference in determining which one has higher dps between GS and mace that the other guy tried to pass it off as.

Sorry but you are the one with the faulty logic here.

/sigh

5300 dmg on a 2600 armor target. If I can proc that quickly even every 20 seconds that’s an increase of 265 DPS. If you watch the target you’ll know when to trigger it to damage as the target swings. In this specific scenario Mace only needs an increase of just over 100 DPS to pull ahead of GSword, PS gives it that. I honestly don’t care for spread sheet calculations, I haven’t found one that I feel is accurate enough to use. If people say GSword is the best then why the hell can I kill stuff as fast or faster with other weapons?

In reality its a function of player skill and attention in combat. Most weapons are so dam close you can run whatever weapon loadout you want for DPS and be competitive with the right builds.

The testing wasn’t able to get Protectors Strike to hit because the Golem does not hit back. PS will add up to 300 DPS to the 2926DPS which would effectively pull Mace/Torch easily on par or ahead of GSword in this scenario.

Not sure why you didn’t list any builds through this whole thread. You could have saved a lot of disagreement if in fact you had them in mind when posting.

Lastly, 10/30/30/0/0 is built for 1h weapons and aside from Mace you’ll get very little out of AH compared to the standard builds. Again, I wouldn’t consider it an AH build at all.

I ran a 10/30/0/30/0 build for a long time. It allows you to do some optimization with any weapon we have with access to RHS, 2H Mastery and Writ of Persistence. You can take Shouts and Pure of Voice or Hammer with Writs. You can run GSword and Staff with 2H Mastery n Empowering Might. Mace or Sword or Scepter with off hands and shouts. Another variation is 10/30/0/20/10 with access to Master of Consecrations or Unscathed Contender.

From my personal testing 10/30/0/0/30 with 2x Phantasms rolling is sitting right where a lot of other DPS run at. If you can maintain 3x Phantasms you start pulling ahead, especially if you use Empowering Mantras.

Mind Wrack (wont let me spell kittenter)has nice burst but low sustained DPS. This build allows you to switch some traits around and optimize for either Shatter or Phantasms. I run Shatter on trash and if your group gives you a few seconds you can respec to Phantasms for bosses. This uses Sword/Sword and Sword/Pistol.

Blood~

I rarely have issue with conditions in PvE, I’ve run this build through a lot of dungeons including Arah and mid 30’s FotM without much issue. Throw Bane Signet on if you need more then the passive removal. If you wanna work with more Protection grab 2x Runes of the Earth, Grove and Water. It will drop your DPS down a bit but gives melee some good mitigation.

Stemare,

You could look at a 25/25/0/20/0 build for GS/Hammer. This is the highest DPS for Hammer I’ve found. Very similar to Blazin’s build except you can boost both symbol damage and GSword damage a bit more. Switch out to 2h Mastery or Empowering Might when you’re using GSword too.

For DPS most weapons come out close to the same if you build for them excluding Staff. Build plays a big part, Fiery Wrath n Radiant Power being nice boosts that are pretty reliable.

GSword5 can be used as a nice DOT if you don’t activate the pull. Auto Attack Chains for melee weapons shouldn’t be interrupted if possible, last hit us usually stronger. As stated before Whirling Wrath should be activated within the targets hit box for max damage. GSword 4>3>2 utilizes your combo field. Torch5 is a DPS loss. Staff is lower DPS but has great utility, never leave home without it.

Lots of little tricks across all the weapon options. I personally like to run one melee and one ranged option on my guard and switch between the two depending on what you need at the time.

Bloodgruve.6038:

Comparatively a 10/30/0/30/0 Mace/Torch build with Zerker Amulet, 6x Scholar, Sigils of Force and Accuracy tested 24% higher then a 0/0/30/30/10 Hammer build with Zerker Amulet, 6x Scholar, Sigil of Force supplemented with Sword of Justice. 25/25/0/20/0 Hammer, same setup ran 20% higher. Other builds were higher then Mace/Torch.
Blood~

So here’s a few of the problems. I consider ‘AH Builds’ and ‘AH centric builds’ to be x/x/30/30/x. The OP asked about 0/0/30/30/10. From all of your posts I’ve been assuming that you were pushing the standard AH build and you also stated it was your preferred build. Nowhere in your posts, unless I missed it, did you mention any deviation from the standard build.

Simply, my argument was that a Fiery Wrath/Radiant Power build will out DPS a standard AH x/x/30/30/x all gear being equal.

DeathPanel.8362:

Sorry but if you base your build around mace damage and burning and consider that high dps then you don’t know what you are doing.

Zerk gear amplifies raw damage and a GS will easily out dps a mace/torch.
Burning damage is trivial relatively and don’t even register by comparison in that scenario.

You also keep bringing up this mace build, please re-read the above quoted post. I made no argument that Mace/Torch had the highest damage output, in fact I stated other builds were higher. They were only comparative examples.

DeathPanel.8362:

My point was regarding AH centered builds not specifically that one setup genius.

Sorry but I don’t buy it. 10/30/30/0/0 has AH available but I wouldn’t call it an AH centered build at all. Mace is the only option that would be even minimally effective with AH and you’ve already stated that its not a dps weapon.

DeathPanel.8362:

So using your own numbers, I’ve demonstrated that you don’t need to sacrifice AH for so-called higher dps.

At this point I can only /facepalm

Those builds aren’t effective with AH, you run them for the crit damage %, MF if anything. You’ve been saying 0/0/30/30/10 zerker does as much as a Fiery Wrath/Radiant power build. It simply doesn’t. You said GSword AH can beat any Mace build, it doesn’t. If you would have said a 10/30/30/0/0 AH build could be high dps then I would have agreed with you, but I don’t see that anywhere unless I missed it.

Those numbers were drawn from taking the Invulnerable Golem’s HP bar to 0 three times consecutively averaged from three tests each. I read it has 80K HP, dev posted it IIRC. 240K/‘Seconds to Kill’ = DPS. Go try yourself.

Deathpanel, have I said in any of my posts that AH sucks ? I have not.

My argument is that what you state as ‘very high dps’ is not very high dps compared to builds that run Fiery Wrath and Radiant Power. So if more discussion is to be had please stick to the argument.

I don’t like to post specifics but it seems necessary here.
0/0/30/30/10 GSword Zerker – 2242 DPS
20/25/0/25/0 GSword Zerker – 3037 DPS
10/30/30/0/0 Mace/Torch Zerker – 2926 DPS (without Protectors Strike which can add up to 300 DPS if used right)
10/30/30/0/0 Sword/Torch 3243 DPS
10/30/20/0/10 Scepter/Torch w/Unscathed Contender maxed at 4K DPS

Here is an empirical data set. All tested with DPS optimized traits. Abilities were triggered so not to cut off auto attack chains. Sword of Justice, Signet of Wrath and Bane Signet used on all tests. All tested on 2600 Armor target. I don’t want to hear how skills and traits are wrong cuz you’d never run them in PvE, this is simply a comparison between some builds and weapons. Torch was used to keep Burning on the target for Fiery Wrath, Torch 5 is never used for DPS.

Please post your 0/0/30/30/10 build and play style that can add at least 24% dps to what I pull out of it. I would honestly love to run it if it could exceed 3K.

Again, I could be doing something wrong. These values are not be-all end-all and are subject to change depending on the scenario. I urge people to test for themselves.

I see you haven’t really done testing then… unless I’m missing something big. Do you have ‘empirical’ evidence?

Maybe you don’t know how to use mace? Torch was used to help maintain Burning during the tests, other off hands are better in play. Never stated mace was the best, simply a comparison. Scepter w/ Unscathed Contender is the highest I’ve found.

Why would AH be a better option if you don’t need it to stay on your feet? Do you ‘sacrifice’ something you don’t need? Oh, unless you think the AH build does the same dps as ‘dps’ builds do. I think I understand. Common sense?

Do you not realize that Fiery Wrath and Radiant Power grant 20% increased damage? 20% overall damage, 300 Precision and 100 power trumps 30% crit damage loss easily.

When meditations grant fury then I’ll be running them, that is not currently in game though.’

Again, run what you want. 10/30/0/30/0 is a good versatile build, it has survivability, utility and what I would consider high dps.

I could be wrong, show me your numbers and how you got them. Lets see.

If you need AH to roll that’s fine, I’m not calling them bad traits at all, just not high dps builds. I did my time with AH and moved past it. I’ve also done countless actual dungeon runs and don’t find a need or benefit for AH personally. Testing in the Mists is simply the easiest way to get quantitative data.

I guess it’s up to the individual to determine what is a ‘huge difference’ in both survivability and DPS for themselves.

To each his own.

Blood~

DeathPanel.8362:

Bloodgruve.6038:

DeathPanel.8362:

Okeano.5930:

Been running lots of CoF, SE, AC this weekend in mostly rares and haven’t had much problem with survivability at all. As someone who’s new to the class, instead of “elitist”, I can confirm that AH is just that, a crutch.

You’re making a lot of assumptions. AH traits don’t mean they have to gear towards non dps.

A guard can trait for AH and still wear full zerk gear and do high dps.

Sounds like you’re making assumptions also. AH Hammer and GSword builds with Zerker gear still do 20% to 30% less damage then even some DPS builds that don’t run Unscathed Contender. I personally don’t consider that to be in the ‘high dps’ category.

Its still a very powerful trait, use it if you need it but if you’re sitting at full health all the time you’re wasting potential DPS.

Blood~

You forget that the valor line that altruistic healing is under gives critical damage % and any AH build will have 30% extra critical damage, which in itself is additional dps.

Outside of variations of meditation builds there is no real dps gain to be had via traits, at least not without massive loss of survivability and viability. (The loss of AH or MF vastly decreases survivability especially if you elect to go full zerk gear for more dps)

You’re free to link a build that proves me wrong. I’ll be first in line to respec.

The increased crit damage from Valor was not forgotten as it was present during the test. The % that I stated came from comparing actual timed and calculated DPS from testing in the Mists. No spreadsheets and a consistent testing environment. Comparatively a 10/30/0/30/0 Mace/Torch build with Zerker Amulet, 6x Scholar, Sigils of Force and Accuracy tested 24% higher then a 0/0/30/30/10 Hammer build with Zerker Amulet, 6x Scholar, Sigil of Force supplemented with Sword of Justice. 25/25/0/20/0 Hammer, same setup ran 20% higher. Other builds were higher then Mace/Torch.

This increase coincides directly with the addition of Fiery Wrath and Radiant Power to the build. I would consider both traits to be major gains. I’ve run Arah and FotM 36 with zerker 10/30/30/0/0, survivability is in knowing the content and hitting your dodge.

The problem with these boards is that people do assume a lot of stuff and offer information that they have not tested themselves. The info that I’m offering here is my best attempt at the truth, take it for what you will. I urge people to test it for themselves and make their own conclusions.

Blood~

Isn’t the internet great. Nice guy + anonymity = jerk

I think Daec knows how it works, its a matter of how he’s communicating it.

Word problem Daec,

2 AH Hammer guardians in a group with 3 other melee. All stacked together in symbol range. No other boons are thrown other than protection from Hammer. No other heals are applied. Noone crits. *Guard A is running Writ of Persistence, Guard B is not.
How many AH heals does Guard A get per auto attack chain?
How many AH heals does Guard B get per auto attack chain?
How many AH heals do the other 3 melee get per auto attack chain?

DeathPanel.8362:

Okeano.5930:

Been running lots of CoF, SE, AC this weekend in mostly rares and haven’t had much problem with survivability at all. As someone who’s new to the class, instead of “elitist”, I can confirm that AH is just that, a crutch.

You’re making a lot of assumptions. AH traits don’t mean they have to gear towards non dps.

A guard can trait for AH and still wear full zerk gear and do high dps.

Sounds like you’re making assumptions also. AH Hammer and GSword builds with Zerker gear still do 20% to 30% less damage then even some DPS builds that don’t run Unscathed Contender. I personally don’t consider that to be in the ‘high dps’ category.

Its still a very powerful trait, use it if you need it but if you’re sitting at full health all the time you’re wasting potential DPS.

Blood~

Hunter, my testing comes from actually hitting a Golem solo, no spreadsheets. I test classes and multiple builds and even without Unscathed Contender Guards can match Warriors in this test scenario. With Unscathed Contender my numbers are higher than warrior. I do not rely on UC in actual play. I have tested the builds I run in PvE which are glassy and effective and have run them in FotM 36. From what I’ve personally seen yes Guards are competitive with Warriors as are most other classes built for DPS. Unless Warriors scale much better then Guards, this I don’t know.

As not to be misleading Scepter DPS is reliant on Smite hitting so it loses some in mobile fights. Projectiles don’t pierce so they may hit the wrong target. 20/30/20/0/0 pushes quite good damage, to min/max its 20/30/10/0/10 with Unscathed Contender which won’t be active all the time.

25/25/0/20/0 is the best DPS I’ve found so far with Hammer. It boosts Symbols and Writ of Persistence helps do damage and keep Protection up. I tested with Sword of Justice to help bring the DPS up but even without it does pretty decent if you can keep Burning on the target which usually isn’t a problem in a group.

Blood~

I agree that AH is amazing. I suggest every guard try it out and see how strong of a trait it is.

I stopped playing it when the content was no longer challenging and I wasn’t happy with my DPS though. I’ll admit hitting the floor a bit more with full zerker DPS when I mess up but it’s generally not a problem. Someone referred to AH as ‘training wheels’ and it fits my view of it. I feel that my net gain is higher by running DPS, faster runs and more challenging game play. Current content actually feels harder with low DPS groups.

I’ve run a 25/25/0/20/0 Hammer build with good dps and full Protection up time. It is very fun and tanky while maintaining good DPS output. Omnom Pie along with passive heals goes a long way.

AH isn’t optimal in PvE as you can complete all content with GC DPS builds. I really like a 10/30/0/30/0 build for DPS, weapon versatility and some utility. Lets you mess with any weapon and semi-optimize it. I run Soldiers Neck and Back but the rest is Zerker. Also, most weapons have similar DPS output excluding Staff which is low but has great utility.

That being said, I’m not out to dissuade people from running AH, just personal preference and I appreciate good dps in groups.

Invulnerable Golem has 80K hp and 2600 armor. HP/Time gives you DPS. Some things wont be captured like Retaliation, Confusion and Protector’s Strike which you can do some quick maths on.

Scepter tested out highest. Sword, Mace, GSword and Hammer all came in within 150 DPS of each other, Hammer being on the low end and bolstered with Sword of Justice. Each weapon was tested with an ‘optimized for dps’ build and tested multiple times for an average. Unscathed Contender builds came out higher but everything increased at the same level.

This is only a snapshot of solo DPS at one level, without full vulnerability, might and other buffs you would see in a group. Comparatively most weapons are close enough for me to use in DPS builds. Not sure on any scaling though. I rarely run in a group that maintains full Vuln n Might so for me I’m personally ok with solo testing giving adequate comparative results to use in group play.

I’ve done the spreadsheet calculations and TBH I’d rather base my conclusions on actual testing. Some spreadsheet values were consistent with what I saw, some were way off.

Also, testing on other classes shows most to be on the same level with the exception of a couple situational builds. Highest I’ve achieved is a Mesmer 3x Phantasm build and Guard Scepter/Unscathed Contender build, which are not easily maintained in a lot of instances.

Blood~

I’ve been running a Rifle/SD build with some good control. If a thief catches me off guard I’m down but if I see um coming I’ve got tools to bring a fair fight. I’ve taken down thieves as much as they’ve taken me so I feel its a good enough build. We should see some turret options come into play soon too.

GL
Blood~

In simple HP/kill time and also spreadsheet calculations I’ve done Guards are in the same range as most all other classes. There is a certian Scepter build that pulls ahead by a decent amount, but it uses Unscathed Contender which is situationally useful. Don’t look at WW or 100b as an indicator of DPS, gotta take everything into account.

Blood~

25/25/0/20/0 is the highest DPS Hammer build I’ve been able to get in testing, adjusted slightly. Haven’t mathed it out yet but I think interrupting your hammer chain for MB is a loss. It lacks some optimization of utility but I’ve run it in FotM n Arah without much problem.

DeathPanel.8362:

After the next patch top dps builds will definitely be meditation based due to monk’s focus granting fury on meditation use. Depending on how long the fury lasts with the right setup it may even be possible to have perma fury with triple meditations slotted.

Before assuming that we would have to see what could be squeezed into a build. If its a grandmaster trait it may turn out to be a wash. Has there been any indication of how meditations will supply Fury?

^Great build here, I run 6x Runes of Altruism though with Medkit. You can get almost full time Fury with it. I switch back and forth from this one to a 30/10/0/0/30 Bomb or Grenade with SD. Its a harder build to run but you can keep a lot of Vulnerability on the target which increases your whole group’s dps.

Either way, I usually run Power Wrench other than Adrenaline Implants when I can, Pry Bar is a nice damage boost.

Lastly, play rifle as a melee weapon. Both 3 and 5 benefit from being up close. This way switching to Pry Bar is worth it.

Chuckdatass.6312:

KazNaka.4718:

Bloodgruve.6038:

If all you care about is DPS then a 20/25/0/0/25 build is where you need to be, Scepter with Unscathed Contender will out do any other setup that I’ve tried.

I would go 30 radiance for RHS (15 crit rate), drop virtue down to 10, and put 10 in valor for +10 crit dmg and Retributive Armor (more crit rate). Imo, Power of Virtuous (Virtue 25) is not that big of a DPS increase (only +1% for each boon). You wouldn’t have Vigorous Precision for dodges so you’d have to strafe a lot to keep aegis up.

For DPS atm, I am using sword (10/30/15/5/10). I find Vigorous Precision to be really valuable when it comes to melee weapons. +100% endurance regen permanently is nothing to laugh at.

This is the type of build I’ve been wanting to run. But feel anchored to 30(10/30/0/30/0) in Honor for Condition cleansing through shouts. Doing say Arah, where WoR and SYG is pretty important for your teammates, where would your condi cleansing come from? Purging flame or a mediation and passive from your signet?(And idk about that 15 in valor. I’d prolly rather put that extra 5 to reduce shout times since the minor at 15 for valor is pretty meh to me.)

Yea, like I said, if all you’re looking for is DPS thats what I’ve found to be the highest. Not the best utility there. Toughest part of Arah is running past stuff. I like SYG, SyS n Staff to get through. 20/30/0/20/0 GSword Sc/X and switch to Staff n 2H Mastery for getting through stuff.

Please ANet, let us know if this will be addressed. Its a nerf to the class overall as we almost need to use kits. I am holding off on my Legendary or Ascended weapon, would love to have it on my Engi but that’s dependent on our kit damage.

Chuckdatass.6312:

Skeleton.8423:

Thanks Bloodgruve. What type of weapon can I use for a Guardian DPS build? I kind of want to avoid the GS, I really like Mace or Sword.

Mace will never be a good dps weapon. For the warrior it is, but not the guardian. Go GS Sword/Focus and you will never go back. I use to run GSHammer because Genesis is so sexy. But you can’t really beat the Sword and GS rotations, as well as the auto attack for the sword with all that crit chance.(Especially running 30 in Radiance with RHS XI).

If you do some actual testing you’ll see that Mace when built right is only a few % behind Sword if that and par with GSword, if Protectors Strike is proc’d quickly for damage. In a GC 10/30/30/0/0 it is a very good choice as it not only deals comparable damage to other weapons but it adds a good amount of healing and a block. Sword is mobile and feels good, GSword is built well and feels good, effective aoe but they are not anything leaps and bounds above Mace. If all you care about is DPS then a 20/25/0/0/25 build is where you need to be, Scepter with Unscathed Contender will out do any other setup that I’ve tried.

To be an effective Guard get to know all weapons, their strengths and playstyles. Find what you like and run it. If you’re built for DPS and have some of the % increase traits you’ll be on par with most other DPS with a few exclusions.

IMHO
Blood~