Guild Wars 2

Zireael, that isn’t what he means at all.

Think of it this way. In Eternal Battlegrounds, there are the following objectives: 1 jumping puzzle, 3 NPC camps, 9 control points, 6 camps, 12 towers, 3 keeps, and Stonemist. So, lets actually assume players are distributed equally (and not in a giant zerg) and just make up some numbers to see the dilemma ANet is facing.

We have Jumping Puzzle (5 players), 3 NPC camps (5 players x3 = 15), 9 control points -or- supply support (3 players x 9 =18), 6 Supply Camps (5 players x 6 = 30 players), 12 towers (10 players x 12 = 120), 3 keeps (20 players x 3 = 60), and Stonemist (30 players). That gives us a grand total of 278 players from the server across the map.

Now, assuming they square off against an exactly balanced force, the server has to track (IE: location, health, abilities, etc) all nearby players. So, it must send data about every player in the vicinity to all players in the vicinity. It must check incoming damage against every nearby player. (This is the N squared problem that was mentioned by Habib; you can see it below in the format: n*n * node_count = n^2 * node_count).

Lets run the numbers: Jumping Puzzle (5×5 = 25), 3 NPC camps (5×5×3 = 75), 9 control points -or- supply support (3×3x 9 =81), 6 Supply Camps (5×5x 6 = 150), 12 towers (10×10x 12 = 1200), 3 keeps (20×20x 3 = 1200), and Stonemist (30×30=900). That gives us a total of 3631 relevant changes that need to go out by the server.

Now, what if we have one massive zerg of 250 v 250? That’s 250×250 relevant changes. That gives 62500 relevant changes that have to be sent by the server. What if there are simply 5 groups of 50×50? That’s 12500 relevant changes that have to go out. What about 8 groups of 30×30? That’s 7200. How about 12 groups of 20×20? That’s 4800. What about 16 groups of 15×15? That’s 3600.

Do you see the problem? The server load isn’t constant. It depends on the distribution of players. Increasing player count (decreasing queues) introduces the potential for lag if players clump. Decreasing lag if players clump means reducing player count (increasing queues). This conflict can never be resolved. There is a conflict here that can never be resolved while both lag and queues exist.

TLDR: More players come at the cost of potential lag during zerging. Lag reductions come at the cost of players allowed entry. Which do you chose? ANet has striven for a balance with a bit of a focus on players over lag. Their hope is that there won’t be a massive zerg because it is so brutal on their server. I think they chose correctly. I also applaud Habib for being straightforward about the issue.

Player culling optimizations are a different subject; one that ANet is looking into.

rndmize.9274:

One more post about WvW balance to add to the pile…

Its the second week for the one week matches, and we’re already seeing improved balance between worlds. Ranks are adjusting properly, people are learning what’s important in WvW, players are getting better. There’s no reason to implement changes without at least a few more weeks of seeing how things go.

Orbs are fine. As it stands, the queues for Eternal Battlegrounds on most worlds are far longer than those for the Borderlands, and changing the orbs to have no impact other than points would only cause people to ignore the borderlands more. At least this way, Borderlands have a objective of critical importance (and imo, more important than SM). But it may take some more time for the majority of players to realize this.

The out-manned buff could use some changes. I’m not too sure in what direction, but I do like reduced repair/upgrade costs.

I strongly dislike the idea of something like tenacity in WvW. First off, it didn’t work (I was on a Horde heavy server and we dominated Wintergrasp regardless of the buff on our opponents) and second, a skilled guild could abuse it to farm opponents efficiently. Waiting for the matches to adjust rankings should work just fine (and already is).

I loved tenacity in Wintergrasp. I remember a group of 5 of us jumping down into that horde of 50+ players and slaughtering over 20 of them with a brutal AOE stack. Of course we didn’t come close to winning and we died a ton too, but it was super fun to be a raid boss. You’re right that it wouldn’t work in GW2. The biggest issue is that death is pricey and Tenacity is just controlled suicide by both sides (controlled suicide can be loads of fun).

I am still a firm advocate that the Orb buff be changed. It just doesn’t make sense to buff the team that has the strongest position on the map. There are other options. Even giving them extra points would be better than the current option. The undermanned buff just makes me sad. It does nothing to help the situation.

kingkio.8162:

Tell me what the point of pvp is if there is no risk, There need’s to be a risk versus reward factor, if you win, you get token’s if you lose you get a repair bill. It should not be a case of whoever can use their spell’s to escape long enough to teleport back to a waypoint for free. If you get into a situation where you are outnumbered 5-1 then that’s the situation you have put yourself in by straying past the front lines or maintaining poor situational awareness.

The point of pvp is to have fun. The point is not to go broke because your level 30 alt is going to be curb-stomped by the level 80 in full exotics with the craziest speed and damage imbalance in the game. Nor is the point to be run down by that team that outnumbers you 5:1. Right now, just logging into the WvW zones on my server puts up the Undermanned buff. You think it’s my fault I’m “straying past the front lines” which appears to be the point where I lose immunity to damage? Does that mean just stop doing WvW so I never go past that point? They can implement a complete risk/reward scenario when there is some semblance of balance.

kingkio.8162:

You also seem to suggest that I am upset over not killing 1 player who teleported to the waypoint, this is not the case, in fact I am usually in WvWvW every evening and generally run around solo if my server is doing it’s usual mindless zerging, i get many kill’s however I also get many people abusing the waypoint’s to escape from what would have been a guaranteed kill once my blink came out of cooldown.

You are upset. If you weren’t, you wouldn’t call for the change. Upset doesn’t mean you are raging uncontrollably. It means that at some level, you aren’t happy with the situation. That is your case. You are clearly unhappy that they “escaped from what would have been a guaranteed kill.”

As others have said, keep them in combat if you want the kill. Otherwise, expect a port out of people that don’t like eating repairs.

Painking.4703:

roqoco.4053:

I think it’s a good idea to have such events that occur rarely. If it went off frequently the area would be full of players waiting to farm it for drops. And it means that some mysteries can remain even in areas that one is familiar with. In the long run perhaps, when Arenanet add more content, maybe they will increase the number of events that only trigger in certain circumstances, so that each time you are in an area it is a unique experience.

The problem with that is that Rares don’t exist at lv15, meaning there’s next to reason to farm him, vs the Shatterer who has a better track record of showing up on time than most local city buses, doesn’t have portals to pad his length and does in fact drop rares.

This is very accurate.

In the Norn area, there is a similar event where an elemental gets summoned. It happens all the time. I don’t know the exact rotation, but I think it is every hour. You can typically kill the guy 3 times while you do the zone (more if you are slow because you afk or log off) if you complete the zone in a pattern starting at the location of the boss. Guess how many people farm it? None; besides the people at that level. The drops aren’t good enough to even justify the portal hopping. Jormag is so superior that it’d be ridiculous to even consider farming this event.

While it would be cool to have a different event while leveling, it really shouldn’t be a “highlight” event. Look around at the event reviews and you’ll see that everyone loves a true meta-starting event. It’s way better to let your consumer experience that event and hold another random one as the new one. I’ll never be tired of S.B. I can’t say the same for bandits burning some hay bales.

I’d be happy if they just made it activate if you killed an enemy player within range of the Yak. It is kind of disappointing to kill a group of 5 or so players that are about to kill your Yak and then not get a reward. However, idling next to the Yak is an obvious problem. They should just make it dependent on you killing a player that is in range / attacking the Yak.

Sky.9347:

I wonder what’s going to happen when these spawn camped servers have all three of their exits blocked by treb fire and arrow carts.

They all go to one map for everything and that one map can’t be blockaded; their own borderlands. All three exits on every map aren’t blockaded on my server. However, there are roaming (bored) squads near every exit in all the maps that can be blockaded.

If you look on the maps where servers are getting dominated, you can see the precious few points they get are from their own borderlands. It’s impossible to blockade and provides a place to group for the few players still doing WvW. That’s the place to go for actual fights. Anywhere else is a ghostland with bored rovers sitting near the exits.

None of this changes the fact that outmanned is a terrible mechanic.

I do agree. Outmanned is broken. Everytime I see it, I think back to the wondrous day when I was actually a raid boss in Wintergrasp. At least Blizzard made it fun to be outmanned. I could jump down and actually kill stuff before I died. Now, I just look at the arrow carts lining the exits of our spawn point, sigh and leave (Current Score: 450k, 92k, 71k <— (my server)). As much fun as it is to be trompled to death and eat a repair cost for my suffering, the “enticement” provided by outmanned is beyond stupid.

On a slightly tangential topic: why can’t players get some kill credit when they lure spawn campers into range of the brutal one shotting guards. That way players would actually get some rewards? Right now, there is a lovely see of enemies just beyond the spawn exit point (the spawn is being bombed by trebs, balistas, and arrow carts) and if you do manage to do a little damage to one and lure them in, you can’t get kill credit because the guards finish the job.

Fidjit.4162:

“Why should you log out after DR hits? Because once your character is diminished, it affects ALL your activity gains in any map and/or zone. You can change location and map and you will still have DR on you. That is how it is working for me at the moment – I tried changing zones and events to get around DR, it simply doesn’t work”

Holy moley, is this true? That is so, so terrible. I have a hard time believing it’s intended, because that is just insane.

It is true for mob kills and also incorrect as to the reset(based on my experience).

1- You character seems to gain a persisting DR based on your kills/hour and overall playtime (if you don’t play very often in a day, you don’t get the DR. If you play a lot and have a high farm rate, it persists like no one’s business). It will impact how fast the DR kicks in, regardless of the zone. If you switch areas, it will soft-reset the hard DR, but the amount of kills before it kicks in is significantly reduced.

Once upon a time, I was able to kill mobs for an hour before it kicked in. After struggling with certain group events where I killed a massive number of mobs (you know the Orr events that spawn waves and waves until you are successful), it got to the point that about 15 minutes of killing froze my drops to nothing.

2- As for the logging out, that does seem to relieve the penalty to some extent. It is like changing areas. However, it doesn’t start to relieve the character DR unless I remained logged out for at least 24 hours. I tested this using the claw of Jormag. I was logged off for ~2.15 hours between the spawn. I watched my rare count do the following pattern over the course of a couple days 5 – 4- 4- 3- 2- 0 – 1- 0 – 0 – 0. If I logged back in for each spawn, my DR never got better.

I did find that going to WvW and running around the zone helped the character DR (I did this for about 5 hours w some logout time of course). That actually bumped my rare count up and it went with 3 – 3 – 1 – 0 – 0. Sitting logged out for a long time did the same. It’s my experience that the character can rack up a DR which becomes crippling and requires even longer breaks to actually remove. I don’t play my 80 anymore. All that logged out time probably means it isn’t too bad anymore, but I grew weary of dealing with it’s terrible DR.

Massacrul.2016:

Heh… now 9c..

Just please tell me this does not work in WvW… cause if it does im out. And this will be suicide attempt for GW2. It will be the end of very short GW2 life.

After all Anet saying that players will be able to do what they want to… They limit our freedom, and try to force us to play the kitteny way they want us to play.
I don’t, and i won’t agree with that attempts, and if this will continue and work in WvW too, I’m out of this game sending ticket about refund, cause there will be nothing more for me to do in this game.

In my own experience, WvW actually alleviates the penalty better than anything else. Doing an hour of WvW helps relieve the DR more than logging off for 12 hours. I’m not certain if the drops from WvW diminish with time. Server imbalances and kill rates are so varied that I have no way to know if player drops have a DR.

Eochaidh.4106:

Seriously? So all of those people are ragequitting over a rumor? That would be hilarious.

No, it’s not a rumor. What is amusing to me is that posts like these are trying to state that there is no penalty when ArenaNet has admitted that there is one and it is bugged.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Patch-9-17-UPDATE-9-20/first#post192818

There is more to the system than just repeating the same events 3 times one hour of one day while level 59.

I really agree with this post. The rewards for many risks are extremely broken in this game. Champion mobs (and even veterans) are broken. It’s amazing to watch end game events done by smart players because no one actually wants to attack the boss. The smart ones are running after the gold fodder of normal and weak mobs. It’s also become the same while leveling. Here’s my recent experience that helped me confirm this fact.

I’m playing and come along a chest guarded by a champion troll. I grab the troll and proceed to try to solo him. It’s going okay, but I’m slowly losing due to respawns and terrain that requires me to constantly jump in order to get over stupid little skulls on the ground. As I’m killing him (he’s at ~75%), I watch some player run up, grab the chest, then leave. I keep going after the troll. I watch another player come up, grab the chest, then leave. (He’s ~62%). I continue along while pondering whispering the aforementioned players to give them a piece of my mind. I mis-jump and snag on some tiny little skull which is enough to get me frozen by the troll and dead (boss at ~42%). So, not only do I eat the death penalty, I don’t get the chest. I also get the joy of watching players leech the chest by running away from the mob.

Players may have bonded together to defeat these things originally, but that is dead now. Players don’t rez because they don’t want to lose the gold medal. Players don’t help kill champions because they are a waste of time. Players don’t really rally together for the group events without a chest because they are a waste of time. I can’t really blame them either. The rewards from certain activities in the game are broken.

Why? It saves money, time, and space (in more ways than one). When they have to record dialogue, they like avoiding anything that makes them do it repeatedly. If you factor in gender, you must do it twice. Military protocol or other rational aside, it is the easiest and cheapest way to make in game dialogue. Every chance they get to save on the massive amount of recording, they’ll take.

The wording choice can be justified. If you have ever watched Battlestar Galactica, you’ll see that they adhere to this protocol, it is purely for the setting. Some real organizations also adhere to this nomenclature. It is rational. If it is rational and saves the company money, expect it to be used. It is so very common in video games because it is such a money saver.

This is really a problem. While increasing the number of mob spawns adds to the event, after scaling for about 4 people, it needs to switch to HP increases. Normal mobs die way too fast in large groups. It has become the ultimate game of “mob tag.”

Bomber builds have become insanely popular because they are the only way to compete. In addition, you have players ignoring event objectives just to farm the spawns. Go watch a Claw of Jormag fight. You can see over half the players will sit and wait for the adds to spawn because they want the loot. Rather than finish the 5% of the wall to instantly kill them, they are all back at base playing “mob tag.” How else are they going to get lucky and get a Corrupted lodestone? You sure aren’t going to get it off the dragon itself. Objectives are being ignored due to the insane game of “mob tag.”

Also, Champion and Veteran mob HP is stupidly high (at level 80). It can easily take a group of 5 people around 10 minutes to kill one champion which provides the same loot as a normal mob which is vaporized in 10 seconds. This causes a few problems:

1- No one wants to attack the stupid things unless there is nothing else to attack. People don’t want to waste time attacking the giant damage sponge when they can easily get 10 times the loot by hitting the little mobs. Consequently, you have these mobs that one shot players and never die just running around while everyone plays mob tag on the normals. Heaven forbid you find one in the world, because 15 minutes later, you’ll end up with the same loot you could have gotten in 20 seconds. There is absolutely no reason to waste that much time and effort.

2- If you switch targets and the veteran or champion is below ~66% HP, you aren’t getting credit for it. You can’t tag the mob because you’ll never do enough damage to “tag” it. You may spend over a minute attacking the thing, but it isn’t enough to get credit.

RvLeshrac.2673:

When you start farming, anything, expect to see a rapid reduction in rewards and loot.

Honestly, it doesn’t kick in fast enough. No one ever touches anything outside of the listed events in the zone.

There are dozens of events all over the place, why do people grind?

There are reasons that players grind. Lets say a level 80 player wants a karma armor set. They need a lot of karma (42k per item). To maximize efficiency, they need to be doing high level events. That means they need to be in 4 zones (2 if the player wants to kill level 80 mobs). These zones have many group events and even the non-group events are rather difficult without a group. In addition, a good number of them are glitched. (Right now, over 75% of the events in 3 of these zones are glitched on my server. In the one remaining zone, the player has to be in a small percentage of the zone or they are doing rather low level stuff). Where are they to go?

Where exactly should the player go to diversify the events? While it seems fine and good to get players to do different events, please explain to me how I can get Corrupted Lodestones for weapons without farming 1 single event chain while getting level appropriate drops.

Maybe I’ve missed something, but from what I’ve seen, the amount of content at level 80 only supports grinding. Killing level 80 mobs forces you into dungeons or into 1.1 zones. To get specific drops, you have to kill the mobs in the exact same spot because they don’t exist elsewhere.

As many GW1 players know, there was an anti-farming policy in place for GW1. This was clarified to some extent by developers. At level 80 in GW2, the number of events that are max level appropriate are rather limited. Consequently, many players are repeatedly completing these events and killing these mobs. This has caused a number of reports of diminished drops and rewards from farming (mobs or events).

I have been trying to farm corrupted lodestones from the Claw of Jormag event. Because it costs a large amount to port around the world, I leave my character there and play on an alt until the event. However, I have observed the drop rate of these mobs to be diminishing over time. It feels like getting these lodestones is futile at this point and maybe I should go doing something else. When I started, I got 3 to 4 rare items each time I participated and averaged a lodestone every event. That decreased with time. Now, I don’t get lodestones anymore. I haven’t seen a rare item in the last 3 events. I hardly even get standard drops.

Of course, I could simply be an outlier in the sample set. However, given my experience trying to farm certain hero armor upgrades in GW1, I have to ask for clarity on a possible anti-farming policy.

ReginaBuenaobra.6953:

Rewards and drops are scaled to your level.

This is incorrect Regina. I tested this on a few zones. In all cases, my level 80 received items of the same level as the zone. In addition, the cash reward was fixed. I got the same reward on a level 17 alt as I did on my 80. The only thing that changed was the XP. I got 10% of a level.