Personally, I think buffing Phantasm survivability is not the right way to fix Mesmer DPS. It might work, but it also:
.
Reinforces the idea that the Mesmer is a pet class.
Widens the gap between Phantasms and Shatters.
.
IMO, what Phantasms need are:
.
An on-conjure effect so most of their power is frontloaded, making keeping them alive not as important.
An on-Shatter effect for obvious reasons, and again making it less attractive to keep them alive if doing so means losing DPS from on-Shatter (and further on-conjure) effects.
.
This way Phantasm play becomes much more active, and the transient nature of Phantasms becomes a non-issue.
Of course Phantasms still need to be able to survive for at least a few seconds… as suggested a few times, Protected Phantasms should be baseline (and probably improved too, 1s Distortion isn’t quite enough).
I think if you go into Inspiration sacrificing offensive power for personal survivability, letting you trait for more reliable Phantasms and Shatters makes sense.
Personally, I’d like to see Persisting Images and Protected Phantasms merged into the same Adept trait and have all its benefits apply to Clones as well.
Plus his argument is solely based on “Clones are bad because you can Shatter Phantasms TWICE!!!” while completely ignoring the fact that Ether Clone churns out an Illusion probably every second with Quickness, despite me pointing it out to him a few times.
I should note that for both my math and Pyro’s, any departure from auto-attacking will give ground to the scepter.
Summoning phantasms, casting wells, casting mantras, blocking, etc. etc. will raise Scepter’s level, because CI has better dps than BF, while sword AA beats scepter AA. So if you don’t AA much, scepter wins.
On the other hand, any dodging that you need to do takes away from the scepter. Blurred frenzy being a minor increase in dps over the autoattack is when it’s used in place of the autoattack.
Blurred frenzy lets you maintain DPS uptime in situations where you would otherwise need to spend time dodging.
Unless it involves a flurry of attacks, don’t forget Illusionary Counter. It’s on a much lower CD than Blurred Frenzy and conjures a Clone to beef up your constant Shattering.
And I think you’ll find you spend much more time not autoattacking and casting other skills than dodging either way.
On this note, it’s extremely important that this change is communicated well. If it is implemented without communication, the simple mechanic of needing to target to do damage will appear to be a broken damage immunity without more investigation. Communicating the change ensures that everyone knows what’s going on with the phantasms, and how to react to them.
Is going to be difficult to do, and will prevent Anet from implementing anything of the sort. The fact that Phantasms are invulnerable unless targeted (or the Mesmer is targeted) has to be communicated in-game, but how?
It can’t just be a one-time announcement as that won’t help new players. *cough*Illusionary Persona*cough*
Meh, not hardly enough reason not to do it. People learn by doing, and targeting and applying damage via attacks compared to not-targeting and failing to get an effect is the most basic science it’s not even fair to call it that.
We’re talking on the level of “If I hold my breath my body starts screaming for air” sort of knowledge. “If I draw breath consistantly, my body is happy.” COME ON.
Bear in mind that Anet doesn’t want Gravity Well to pulse both positive and negative effects or iAvenger to apply Slow and Alacrity through two different methods because it would be “confusing”.
I think having your AoEs sometimes kill Phantasms and sometimes cause lots of “Immune” to pop up (because you’re targeting/not targeting the Mesmer) during the chaos of team fights would be worse. Certainly no barrier for intelligent players, but we all know how intelligent the average player is.
And a buff icon on Phantasms isn’t going to help in these situations, few people have time to mouse over buff icons during a team fight and again, most players just ignore those. It will have to be something obvious like combat floating text, but I can’t think of anything concise enough to describe “immune unless targeted or if owner is targeted”.
I know this all sounds like catering to the lowest common denominator, but that’s how Anet rolls.
On this note, it’s extremely important that this change is communicated well. If it is implemented without communication, the simple mechanic of needing to target to do damage will appear to be a broken damage immunity without more investigation. Communicating the change ensures that everyone knows what’s going on with the phantasms, and how to react to them.
Is going to be difficult to do, and will prevent Anet from implementing anything of the sort. The fact that Phantasms are invulnerable unless targeted (or the Mesmer is targeted) has to be communicated in-game, but how?
It can’t just be a one-time announcement as that won’t help new players. *cough*Illusionary Persona*cough*
It’s better for you to shatter phantasms than to shatter clones because the phantasms do damage and then you shatter them and they do damage again.
How does summoning a clone keep you from shattering a phantasm?
I think he’s running under the assumption that every Shatter is going to be a 3 Phant Shatter. Which calls into question what kind of Shatter cadence he’s envisioning.
Or maybe he doesn’t know that Clones never replace Phantasms unless you have 3 Phants.
With improved alacrity, I’d still have 15-20 seconds of alacrity ticking away after a fight, meaning that any cooldowns I used towards the end kept going down.
Except for the fact that you are wanting to shatter PHANTASMS not CLONES which the SCEPTER produces.
I did say I don’t want to discuss this anymore but this made me curious.
Do you care to explain this a little more?
The idea is to shatter your phantasms because of chronophantsma so that they come back and attack again. Then you shatter them again and pump out more phantasms.
Mmhm. And how does Ether Clone work against this?
Because it summons a clone.
Go on. What bad things happen when you Shatter a Clone instead of a Phantasm? A Clone which, by the way, can be conjured every 1 ~ 2 seconds?
If you can stack 25 Might easy between BD and Herald (or whatever your preferred Might stacker is), would it be a better to go MtD instead of Shattered Strength? It’s not much damage but it’s still something.
Do you think you’d get more Alacrity/damage from using Illusionary Reversion/PoM for more Illusions? From what I can tell from the video a lot of Shatters weren’t full Shatters, but perhaps taking one or two of those traits would beef them up.
Except for the fact that you are wanting to shatter PHANTASMS not CLONES which the SCEPTER produces.
I did say I don’t want to discuss this anymore but this made me curious.
Do you care to explain this a little more?
The idea is to shatter your phantasms because of chronophantsma so that they come back and attack again. Then you shatter them again and pump out more phantasms.
That video makes me nostalgic for Raid of the Capricorn.
Main thing for me is if I get bursted down to low health I tend to blow my Shatters to heal up (Restorative Illusions). It’s saved me a few times but more often than not I would’ve done better (read: survived) if I conjured a few Illusions before I facerolled my F keys.
And yeah I too tend to pay way too much attention to my skill bar when things get heated.
I’d love to jump into this discussion, but half a page of talking to a brick wall is enough for me.
Yeah, probably better to go to the guardian forum and start trying to get people to use staff for meta builds. : P
As for the other two new posts, Ill get to them at some point, but I’v spent way to much time replying already right now with huge posts.
People have already shown you the numbers (for Sceptre, amongst other things). At this point all you’re doing is floundering, you know you’re wrong but your ego prevents you from admitting it.
For your own sake, just stop. Walk away. No need to make things more tiresome than they have to be, for all involved.
Yes. Also I feel it’s way too unreliable for boon sharing, the CD is relatively long and given Phants are core to almost everything a Mesmer does you can’t really hold back your Phants for it.
IMO the answer to the paper-thin Phantasm problem is not to beef them up: I don’t think anyone wants the Mesmer to be a pet class: but to balance them around the assumption they won’t last more than a few seconds, which is currently the case most of the time anyway. This could include frontloading Phantasm functionality (extra conjuring effects à la Echo of Memory) and make Phantasms produce extra effects on Shatter.
Depending on how valuable Cripple and Slow will be on Defiant bars, I think Master of Fragmentation is potentially decent.
@Pyro:
If you can stack 25 Might easy between BD and Herald (or whatever your preferred Might stacker is), would it be a better to go MtD instead of Shattered Strength? It’s not much damage but it’s still something.
Do you think you’d get more Alacrity/damage from using Illusionary Reversion/PoM for more Illusions? From what I can tell from the video a lot of Shatters weren’t full Shatters, but perhaps taking one or two of those traits would beef them up.
IMO if you want a mix of personal DPS and support, go with Dom/Illu/Chrono. You won’t be running Mantras so there’s no Dueling GM you’d be using, Empowered Illusions > Phantasmal Fury (I think) and the Ferocity bonus from Fencer’s Finesse is really quite small. With Domination you also get Mental Anguish to buff up your Mind Wracks and CoFs (which remember in a Chronomancy build will be spammed on CD), extra damage from Vulnerability plus the ability to help stack Vuln if that’s an issue.
You want Illu because it gives you much lower CDs on almost everything (Celerity, Misdirection, Persistence of Memory) and the GMs are at least slightly useful compared to Dueling GMs.
This is how I’d build a PvE Mesmer that doesn’t want to go full Alacrity/Quickness support, i.e. a puggy build. If your group can share enough Might then take MtD instead of Shattered Strength. Furious Interruption instead of Shattered Concentration if no boons are involved, but it really makes almost no difference. Runes and Sigils TBD as we don’t know what content will be like in HoT.
Actually, I’m curious now. With permanent quickness and alacrity, melee range scepter very well might be higher dps than sword. Since sword doesn’t benefit at all from alacrity (blurred frenzy is like. .2% dps increase over the auto if I remember my frifox stats properly) scepter gains significant headway in the form of confusing images.
summons frifox for a dps test in BWE3
Whoa….you mean I might have a use for meteorlogicus in dungeons outside of my guardian!?
Meteorlogicus is my favourite Legendary. Makes me sad there’s little justification to using it in PvE as a Mesmer.
One of the reasons I’m looking forward to Chronomancy.
Actually, I’m curious now. With permanent quickness and alacrity, melee range scepter very well might be higher dps than sword. Since sword doesn’t benefit at all from alacrity (blurred frenzy is like. .2% dps increase over the auto if I remember my frifox stats properly) scepter gains significant headway in the form of confusing images.
summons frifox for a dps test in BWE3
Ether Clone might eek out a bit of extra damage (and Alacrity) while rolling through your Shatters too.
I love sandy, but he’s not fully informed about scepter. Due to how the auto functions, it performs faster the closer you are to the target. At melee range, it becomes very similar to the attack speed of the sword. He also doesn’t seem to realize that confusing images actually does more damage than blurred frenzy, in a quicker package now that it’s been buffed.
I still wouldn’t normally recommend using scepter for various reasons, but the particular case discussed here makes a lot of sense for it.
In my build, I use mainhand sword because I need the instant clone from iLeap to start the rotation, and I want the defense of blurred frenzy to be available.
Oh no, I’m not saying I’d take MH Sword over Sceptre, but if you’re looking to have two MHs then with Chrono there’s no sense in doubling up on Sword still is what I’m getting at.
There’s no sense to take one sword and one scepter. That being said I have been overly harsh. When someone says something that seams pretty trollish I tend to try to spur them on to get a better laugh but that’s probably not one of my greatest quality’s….
Just go test it in HotM. If you’ve never used it before, and from how you keep repeating yourself it’s obvious you haven’t; you can’t really make a judgement.
I love sandy, but he’s not fully informed about scepter. Due to how the auto functions, it performs faster the closer you are to the target. At melee range, it becomes very similar to the attack speed of the sword. He also doesn’t seem to realize that confusing images actually does more damage than blurred frenzy, in a quicker package now that it’s been buffed.
I still wouldn’t normally recommend using scepter for various reasons, but the particular case discussed here makes a lot of sense for it.
In my build, I use mainhand sword because I need the instant clone from iLeap to start the rotation, and I want the defense of blurred frenzy to be available.
Oh no, I’m not saying I’d take Sceptre over MH Sword, but if you’re looking to have two MHs then with Chrono there’s no sense in doubling up on Sword still is what I’m getting at.
And yeah, not many people realise that Confusing Images does a LOT of direct damage on top of Confusion. Taken together it’s quite a bit stronger than Blurred Frenzy damage-wise.
I understand that PART of the reason scepter wasn’t taken was because of the clone summon. However, that is not the whole reason why it was not taken. Literately, I don’t mind discussing things with people, but when people say stuff of the sort like this, it makes me think: why do I even bother?
The other reason people like to repeat, Ether Bolt’s slow attack rate, is actually an anomaly that disappears when you use it in melee range. The issue is Ether Bolt does not progress to the next skill in the chain until the previous projectile has hit, so the further away you are the slower it is. At melee range however it’s as fast as Mind Slash.
Try it in HotM. The damage and attack rate are comparable, and Ether Bolt also adds a tiny amount of Torment damage so it’s slightly more comparable than it seems.
See, i don’t mind answering questions that ask why scepter isn’t good, but I hate it when people walk into a discussion about future meta builds and state that scepter is better than sword. I would advise reading the guide by one of the best ( if not the best ) mesmer pve players that I’ll link at the bottom of my post. It will tell you why scepter isn’t good.
Did you even read the guide you linked? It clearly states that the main reason is because Ether Clone replaces Phantasms. Again:
The main reason Sceptre wasn’t used is because Ether Clone replaces Phantasms, that’s not an issue with Chronomancer. You should know why the meta is how it is instead of just parroting what everyone else says.
And Sceptre’s AA is not bad either in melee where you don’t get the horrible “projectile in flight” aftercast. The damage is very comparable to Mind Slash, main drawback being it doesn’t cleave: but that hardly matters for what we’re talking about.
Isn’t possible to change colours between the 2 portals? or add atleast a diffrent glow, like for example:
Light purple -> entrance
Dark purple -> exit
nothing so big but is still a thing you could pay attention
For what purpose? The difference between Entre and Exeunt is just the order at which they’ve been placed. It’s a two-way portal.
Seriously, first someone claims scepter is better than sword in dungeons
Way to strawman. I said you’re better off using two different MHs with their own skills and CDs than doubling up on Sword. Confusing Images is basically a second Blurred Frenzy that does more damage and you won’t lose much DPS with Ether Bolt provided you’re in melee range, which you would with Sword anyway.
The main reason Sceptre wasn’t used is because Ether Clone replaces Phantasms, that’s not an issue with Chronomancer. You should know why the meta is how it is instead of just parroting what everyone else says.
Obviously we disagree on the might, as that’s the other part that brings in Chaos (12+ stacks of might from BD), and some other minor boons from BD (fury, regen, vigor).
I’m not really in the debate, but how does this provide 12+ might? As far as I understand, each F1 shatter is 3 might regardless of the number of shattered illusions, no?
You misunderstand how Phantasmal Haste works. It reduces their attack CD, not their conjure CD.
Don’t knock on Sceptre if you never tried it. It’s actually a good Power weapon, the Ether Bolt chain doesn’t do much less damage than Mind Slash and Confusing Images does a lot more damage than Blurred Frenzy. Ether Clone can be pretty useful in a Shatter build with no DE, and since this is a Shatter build you won’t have problems with Clones overwriting Phantasms.
Domination also gives you up to +30% damage on your Shatters, and remember this is a Shatter spamming build. You also can help stack Vuln with Diversion.
Might is provided by the warrior, and fury by the ele. And herald will NOT get taken because rev isn’t going to get taken for dungeons. Ele, ele, warrior, chrono, thief/ele ( you might be able to get away with no thief depending on the dungeon and if the mesmer swaps to PU for skips then swaps back ). Obviously utilitys, traits, and weapons can get swapped around for the encounter but I think this will be the general build. And yeah staff does pretty bad DPS if you swap to it in combat tho the phantasm can be nice if you have 5> condis on the boss. And idk what chaos is for at all.
EDIT: linked the wrong build in my original post >.<
What’s with Harmonious Mantras in a build with no Mantras?
Also, again Phant Haste is useless in a Phantasma Shattering build. And why Ineptitude?
Switch a Sword for a Sceptre, it does nearly as much autoattack DPS at close range and Confusing Images does more damage than Blurred Frenzy; plus since you’re Shattering Ether Clone is a benefit rather than a hindrance.
Signet of the Ether is not needed IMO, go with Well of Eternity.
Again I’d go Domination instead of Dueling, more DPS that way.
The traits on dulfy weren’t updated for last beta were they?
((While not focusing on support as usual, the powercreep should melt anything in any dungeon before you need survivability anyways. In raids and FotM we’ll drop something for FB))
My main thought about your build is Phantasmal Haste is quite useless with Chronophantasma and constant Shattering. You’d be far better off with Shattered Strength or even MtD if you rely on allies to get maximum Might stacks.
If the goal is more DPS, I’d personally use Illusionary Reversion instead of Danger Time and ditch Dueling for Domination, taking Empowered Illusions, ??? and Mental Anguish.
Can we get this for all Phantasms (i.e. iMage and iDisenchanter) plagued with inconsistent bounce delivery?
How about a ranged AoE attack instead (exploding projectile)? It’s essentially the same thing except the Phantasm doesn’t have to be in cleave range. Same goes for iMage and iDisenchanter.
Of course, what really needs to happen is for Phantasms to not be paper thin, or the Mesmer re-balanced around the assumption that Phantasms only live long enough for one shot. I’m personally a fan of the latter as it meshes better with the idea that Shatters are our most important mechanic.
Well, since damage and conditions on illusion’s death was just removed, because of pvp balancing, Anet will never put it back. It would be admitting to a mistake, which isn’t going to happen.
They’ve admitted their mistakes quite a few times, such as removing the channel on Torch 4 and reducing Mantra cast time from 4s back to what it was. It just takes them at least 1+ year to do it.
In general DPS is pretty meaningless in PvP. It’s why Mesmers are known for their incredible damage even though they have one of the lowest DPS of all professions.
