Guild Wars 2

Dark King Rayleigh.9174:

Some great fights this week.

Here is a [BT] highlight video vs [PINK]: http://youtu.be/hnRMp4cXKas

Some amazing fights in just 2 nights. The fight that stands out for me is the one at the North Supply Camp, was a great and very long fight. Good strats and coordination on both sides.

3:24 moment was awesome made me chuckle

dreztina.4820:

Well, ya. We are better at this game than you are, and that stems from running in small groups rather than zergs. You guys kitten and moan about the tone, but everything I’ve said is true.

Exactly, my problem with you OG guys thinking your much better than anyone else, its not like no one has killed OG by themselves. I’ve downed/flagged many OG myself yet you don’t see people going to the forum saying you guys are bad. have some respect for other player and you will get respect yourself.

Sol.4310:

Your just like the rest, hate someone when you don’t even know them.

So, tell me when is the last time a OG member not complain all the time about bigger groups and say they are bad? (1 day ago)

Here’s some quotes from your guild member.
“In reality, OG has become infamous to the point where our mere presence on a battlefield contributes to our server hugely. Even a single OG tag is enough to make an entire zerg stop what it is doing and chase in the opposite direction. Just by playing the way we play, we can make ourselves cancel out 5-6x our numbers easily. Also, we always kill more than we lose, even if it’s not as many as we’d like, meaning we’re taking more people out of the fight than our own number.”

If that doesnt make you guys sound we’re inferior to you i don’t know what is.

Also heres another quote complaining about bigger groups and thinking how superior you guys are.

“Ya, it’s a pretty lame tier. My only hope for the future of wvw here is that eventually FA and DB get tired of being zerg servers and start actually doing roaming pvp and maybe eventually learn how to compete.”

If that doesnt show enough proof then i donno man.

Skyrmion.6478:

selan.8354:

Bunzy.8674:

Speaking of people loving us.

Why do FA and DB always try to gang up on me? 
Do you have a problem with Maguuma or OG?

erm, i personally have nothing against maguma at all. actually prefer them to DB’s NNK. OG though has a bad reputation and yes we are hunting u guys down. the reason for that is pretty obvious: u guys gank single targets on the street, wait infront of our spawn, try to attack us from behind when we are taking a DB keep, jump on our bodies after 6v1 and then  troll on the forums and even if u have a official duel(like u had with our commander Lady Sayrah) u get mad if he wins and attack him from behind out of the blue….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOPTTCtjYIo&list=PLqbVYxfA89UMv5OSa94FHbA2raTSkQIig&index=67

Lol so much hate for bringing out a video that shows a fight back when d/d ele earth skill 3 pre-nerf. I have friends in both PRO and OG and all are really nice people in game (except bunzy), so just chill out and have fun. Hating wont get u anything good.

Pretty sure why people hate OG is just their attitude towards players some people want to be in bigger groups some wants to roam. OG think they are superior being cause they roam in small groups and pick off stragglers from bigger groups. If you want respect from players respect everyone else.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Look, it does work to the other way:
Given any warrior build, there exists a generally useful thief build that beats that warrior build.
If the game is balanced, it should also work to the otherway, should it not?

Warriors are great vsing thieves especially when i run GS+Sword/Shield, GS 4 Immobilize , Sword burst skill immobilze, shield 4 stuns, and bullcharge which leads to easy 100b’s and when a D/D Thief trys to burst you shake it off shield 5. D/P i generally dont have much problem with them too as soon as they pop out you have so many skills that can immobilize/stun him to land hits he cant be taking.

Porky.5021:

Solori.6025:

Secondly, if your having problems with culling.
you need to upgrade your hardware.
With the recent change, culling got better for some and significantly worse for others.
That tells us that it may then be a hardware problem where people are using the lowest spec computers available.

If you are using the lowest grade of equipment, you may also want to come to terms that culling will possible never get better for you.

Culling has nothing to do with the client.

Nothing? I wouldnt say so. this is taken directly from one of the programmers " Extra load time varies depending on how beefy the client machine is (those with more memory, faster CPUs, more CPU cores, and faster drives experience shorter load times)."

Columba.9730:

Sebrent.3625:

It hasn’t been just me noticing it. Our server’s teamspeak has noticed an abundance of thieves as well. Perhaps it’s just the Thieves doing a majority of the roaming and other classes sticking with zergs more …

Also, why would I be noticing my own server’s abundance of Thieves? Obviously my server’s thieves aren’t killing me.

We are seeing Fgs of roaming thieves in WvWvW now. They can take out multiple groups who never see them.

I would love to see a single thief take out a organized group. Good luck with that.

Majik.8521:

Jerks.3172:

So, Columba still waiting on your response where is the video that shows constant damage without dropping stealth.
You say.

i have to agree that a thief can not do constant damage while in stealth. I have been hit by thieves up to 4 times while i could not see them. I look at the combat log and it will say “xxxx damage from unknowns”.

however this is not an intended thief mechanic and more than likely one of two things.

1. culling from being in a large scale fight.
2. the clipping bug caused from a hasted back stab combo.here is a link to a post that shows the haste clipping bug.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Thief-burst-new-combo/first

I have no problems with these two as hopefully they will get fixed.

what i do hate though is that when i get jumped by a thief (its usually a d/p and S/D) is that when i get him/her down to half life then they can just C&D repeatedly as long as they time it right and never get the reveal debuff. there isn’t anything i can do about it as he/she can C&D off of my pet, guards, mobs, critters, doors, siege, walls and probably some blade of grass (will have to test the last one) i believe that as long as the thief is in combat they should receive the revealed debuff every time they exit stealth not only when they damage from stealth.

i believe this small change would help balance the stealth mechanic without destroying the thief game play.

It’s pretty funny how columba is avoid me in conversation because he know he is wrong.
Getting hit by unknown is usually culling.I agree with you with that revealed the only sensible one i really heard so far. Like what is giving 30-50% speed reduction and take more damage when stealth would just kill the thief class.

Calae.1738:

Jerks.3172:

Calae.1738:

Stealth has always been a problem in any MMO. Any damage that you output upfront without time to setup, gives no warning to the victim. It’s too easy. Any noob can do it. Luckly, the Thief doesn’t have much control skills or else it would be a lot worse.

When you design a class that insta kills another player without giving enough time for that player to react; its a problem with the class not the player. It’s not fun for the person getting killed and it’s not fun for the person doing the killing either.

It’s completely stupid.

No time to react? Since when did Steal CnD BS Combo time to execute become less than 1 second? it takes at least a good 2-3 seconds to execute and if you dont react after getting hit by the steal you shouldnt even be alive.

Wrong.

I have a Thief buddy. All you need are the venoms that stun or immoblize and you’re toast. We can argue all day about this. If you think 2 seconds of reaction time is enough, you’re delusional. That’s not even taking lag into account either.

Apparently its hard to press the break stun button and reposition hmm.. I guess for some people it is if they dont have the reaction time. I dodge most of the combo, the only time i get hit is when i screw up or was not expecting a attack (usually form behind) since i dont use the 180 camera that often so about 40% of the time my back is open.

Sebrent.3625:

Jerks.3172:

Several ways of reset how? only hide in shadows and shadow steps assuming you have no iniatiave from missing your CnD

You’re not mentioning Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder nor the trait, Last Refuge, that gives you Blinding Powder when 25% hp. That’s a ton of stealth.

Shadow Refugee is easily counter-able. Its funny how many times thieves been downed but the player that killed them oh i shouldnt wait this out and aoe the area cause he probably alive. As for blinding powder seriously how many people run this skill i’ve seen less than 10% in my entire gameplay of 200hr in wvw as for blinding powder at 25% hp that screws thieves more over than its help you know cause its not a active and a passive skill.

Sebrent.3625:

Jerks.3172:

Take a good amount of punishment? you serious right here? if a butterfly lands on a thief they just go downed.

Watch the video. There are plenty of times he gets CC’d and takes quite a good number of hits and lives. There’s my evidence and he had ZERO +toughness on his gear, just a few pieces w/ Valk stats.

No toughness? He uses +100 toughness food, gets +300 toughness from trait, +100 vit from trait, + valkyire armor yes.. he has no toughness 400 toughness is nothing apparently. As for the damage 6:40 4 hits hes down to 50% hp and his hp pool/toughness is larger than most thief i dont see the problem. As for the only semi competent person was the ele and he was already giving him a real hard time but never uses his auto attacks.

Sebrent.3625:

Jerks.3172:

They do not have to wait 3 second to restealth. Yes, thief can chain stealth but if they screw up and stealth wears off before chaining they dont get stealthed at all and get revealed..

<sarcasm>It must be so hard to chain stealth when you can hit clones, phantasms, ranger pets, random critters, and neutral NPCs in order to continue stealthing.

It must also be difficult to hit people who can’t see you so don’t know when to block/dodge to prevent you hitting them. </sarcasm>

As far as the advice to “blindly swing at the area you think the Thief is stealthed at” … how is that fun?! Against non-Thief classes, we get to see our opponent, react to each other’s skills, etc.. Against the Thief we have to guess that the thief was dumb enough not to dodge roll while stealthed and blindly swing? That’s “awesome” and it works if the thief is low on health and too dumb to take advantage of the dodge roll mechanics and their high movespeed. Dumb thieves are not the problem.

Cloak and Dagger.. you have to be right by the enemy and he cant really get far 3 second cloak. If you get tagged you should get ready for a fight and position yourself and IF he continues to just CnD you when you’re along (which never happens) you can walk away not like that damage is going to kill you and if he doesnt run shadow arts with right traits hes not going to stick on you for very long.

Sebrent.3625:

I have provided a video and a screenshot illustrating what people are talking about. What have you thieves been illustrating? That you don’t want any nerfs.

Let’s be honest. There is a reason for the massive influx of Thieves we’re seeing in World vs World. About 1/4 of my server’s WvWers last night were Thieves and it was the class I kept constantly running into from other servers as well.

There are obvious reasons Thieves are so prominent in WvW while other specific classes are not.

Thieves you keep running into hmm they are they roaming class along with d/d ele arent they? they dont really run with zergs as they accel in 1v1 combat i wouldnt be surprise you see thieves everywhere.

Sebrent.3625:

I’ll put it this way.

When I face a good player playing any other class, I am fine with losing the fight and I reflect on their likely build, how my build pairs up to it, possible weaknesses exposed in mine, and how the flow of the fight went as far as mistakes made and things done “perfectly” by both sides. I am able to do this because non-Thief classes offer good fights.

However, I do not have this feeling when it comes to Thieves playing those 2 builds as forcing people to blindly swipe at air constantly throughout a fight or forcing them to play a tanky build or be insta-gibbed by an invisible enemy are not good fights.

Right here, your just going for every class should be the same, other classes accel at other things do people not get this? Its like saying i want to GC and withstand a thief’s burst.

jportell.2197:

Jerks.3172:

Columba.9730:

vespers.1759:

i think it’s unfair that my rapid fire can do 7k in 10 hits but a thief can do 7k+ in 1 hit. i got hit for a 5k steal today. come on. anyone can dodge my rapid fire, no one can dodge a steal from invis.

i don’t mind high dmg, but when you can hit 1 button and do it, or hit the same button and do it multiple times it jsut gets old very fast. also stealth stomp… come on.

i watched a thief dance around 10 people today downing and stomping from stealth. then he ran away.

90% of solo players i see in wvwvw are thieves. at this point i just run away when i see a thief, because i don’t stand a chance. it isn’t a L2P issue. i can handle other classes minus eles and some mesmers alright, but thieves are just something else.

yep, l2p addressed to all non thief players is pretty meaningless. It seems like desparation.

How is it meaningless ? People tell you how to counter thieves yet you say “durr nope impossible” and come up with another stupid arguement which we tell you off again then you go back to the first one its the same with you.. lol

You only rotate by perma stealth,culling, cant target. yet we told you all the ways you can find kill thieves for all these problems.

Stealth Meh. I don’t see it as a huge issue. The culling rendering aspect is HUGE! I feel like this needs addressed first and foremost because when a p/d thief is attacking you and his burst is done THEN he appears. There is a problem. If they get culling fixed and everything working properly and the revealed debuff actually WORKS. Then we can see what can/should/if anything will be done about stealth.

Yes the culling is pretty big. but its really irritating people screaming nerf this nerf that when they don’t even take the time to learn how to deal with it.

Columba.9730:

Jerks.3172:

So, Columba still waiting on your response where is the video that shows constant damage without dropping stealth.
You say
“I don’t know whom you think you are fooling. we all experience perma stealthed thieves attacking us in wvw. you aren’t fooling any of us since we experience it all the time. there are dozens upon dozens of videos showing how to do it.”

So clearly there must be a video out there.

look around. they are plastered all over the forums. not going to do your homework for you.

I have looked around but i have yet to see any video of perma stealth while doing damage and staying stealthed and dont bother showing me a thief CnDing every 3 seconds cause its not constant dps like you said. So please help me there cause apparently they are everywhere.

Sue.4361:

Jerks.3172:

I need to L2P

We can tell ….

You in the same guild as columba or something lol ? Do you have anything to say about what i said to columba be my guest enlighten me. If i’m wrong i’d gladly admit it, but until you show me some proof columba is just being a hard headed person. Many players have killed and outplayed a thief when its “OP” according to him. I understand your mad and all but doing pitiful jokes like that will get you no where.

So, Columba still waiting on your response where is the video that shows constant damage without dropping stealth.
You say
“I don’t know whom you think you are fooling. we all experience perma stealthed thieves attacking us in wvw. you aren’t fooling any of us since we experience it all the time. there are dozens upon dozens of videos showing how to do it.”

So clearly there must be a video out there.

thewanderer.8561:

Jerks.3172:

Columba.9730:

Jerks.3172:

Columba.9730:

Zephyrus.9680:

Columba.9730:

Happy to see others viewing this as a problem too. However, I think ANet needs to focus only on stealth to prevent perma stealthing. perhaps permastealthing doesn’t happen in spvp, but it’s rampant in wvwvw, as the myriad videos clearly show. Thieves in wvw can and do remain 100% stealthed while attacking the entire time. I doubt this is working as intended, and my guess is that culling enables thieves to bridge stealthed to non stealthed periods. A reveal debuff is more than reasonable and won’t hurt the class. good thieves will manage, others who don’t need to l2p.

First, any attacks that hit will break stealth, AND YES, they will reveal debuff the thief (OP video is an exploit if you didn’t realize yet).

Second, when I’m on my hammer-shout warrior I’m about 5 times more valuable in a zerg than on my thief.

Culling happens whether you’re a thief or any other class and it doesn’t matter if half a zerg is culled or stealth because AoE will hit regardless (and most damage in this game IS AoE).

Not sure what mechanic you would want changed. The D/P ‘perma stealth’ build is hard to play and isn’t even that effective. Everything else uses CnD which needs to hit.

Counters to stealth include stun, daze, blind, dodge, snare. And a bit of burst damage.

If you don’t understand a class, you won’t know the first thing how to fight it and it’s even more significant with thief because even their attacks rely on stealth. I’m guessing that’s why theres so much complaining on the forums, when by comparison, a D/D ele beats theif in almost every category (solo, small scale fights, and zerging).

nope, there’s evidence all over that thieves can attack and remain stealthed. videos have the evidence. secondly, I can see other classes as they attempt to unload their high cooldown low cast time attacks. unlike thieves that can spam high damage attacks and remain stealthed. lol.

Constant dps while staying in stealth? your kidding right? The only thing that keeps thieves in stealth while doing damage is CnD at the very last second of tick of stealth to renew it. if you do it at any other time you will get immune and get revealed.

I don’t know whom you think you are fooling. we all experience perma stealthed thieves attacking us in wvw. you aren’t fooling any of us since we experience it all the time. there are dozens upon dozens of videos showing how to do it.

K, post me a video of a thief staying cloaked and hitting you every second for 10 seconds. Hmm. yeah there isnt any.

Lol but they can bleed the crap out of you while they stay invisible. Just look for wild bill’s videos.

Yea sure, P/D are annoying but you can use condition removal + cc with tab targeting. But Columbia is talking about D/P since he is always ranting about Permastealth.

Columba.9730:

we all see the permastealthing before our eyes. first it was “permastealth is impossible.” then when proven wrong it was “well it’s useless.” then when proven wrong it was “well no one does it but noob thieves.” Now it’s “well you can counter it..”

You base this off other players. Not me Lol when did i ever say it was impossible, permastealth thief trades damage for hp,and longer cloak/iniatiave gain. Idk what you want… you say its overly OP yet someone with the right skill can kill thieves? So if i die to any class must be OP right and they should nerf.

Its like telling anet “i want to faceroll my keyboard and win all fights with any character” is it not?

Columba.9730:

Jerks.3172:

Columba.9730:

Zephyrus.9680:

Columba.9730:

Happy to see others viewing this as a problem too. However, I think ANet needs to focus only on stealth to prevent perma stealthing. perhaps permastealthing doesn’t happen in spvp, but it’s rampant in wvwvw, as the myriad videos clearly show. Thieves in wvw can and do remain 100% stealthed while attacking the entire time. I doubt this is working as intended, and my guess is that culling enables thieves to bridge stealthed to non stealthed periods. A reveal debuff is more than reasonable and won’t hurt the class. good thieves will manage, others who don’t need to l2p.

First, any attacks that hit will break stealth, AND YES, they will reveal debuff the thief (OP video is an exploit if you didn’t realize yet).

Second, when I’m on my hammer-shout warrior I’m about 5 times more valuable in a zerg than on my thief.

Culling happens whether you’re a thief or any other class and it doesn’t matter if half a zerg is culled or stealth because AoE will hit regardless (and most damage in this game IS AoE).

Not sure what mechanic you would want changed. The D/P ‘perma stealth’ build is hard to play and isn’t even that effective. Everything else uses CnD which needs to hit.

Counters to stealth include stun, daze, blind, dodge, snare. And a bit of burst damage.

If you don’t understand a class, you won’t know the first thing how to fight it and it’s even more significant with thief because even their attacks rely on stealth. I’m guessing that’s why theres so much complaining on the forums, when by comparison, a D/D ele beats theif in almost every category (solo, small scale fights, and zerging).

nope, there’s evidence all over that thieves can attack and remain stealthed. videos have the evidence. secondly, I can see other classes as they attempt to unload their high cooldown low cast time attacks. unlike thieves that can spam high damage attacks and remain stealthed. lol.

Constant dps while staying in stealth? your kidding right? The only thing that keeps thieves in stealth while doing damage is CnD at the very last second of tick of stealth to renew it. if you do it at any other time you will get immune and get revealed.

I don’t know whom you think you are fooling. we all experience perma stealthed thieves attacking us in wvw. you aren’t fooling any of us since we experience it all the time. there are dozens upon dozens of videos showing how to do it.

K, post me a video of a thief staying cloaked and hitting you every second for 10 seconds. Hmm. yeah there isnt any.

Columba.9730:

when thieves get permastealth and massive dps, there is no time to react.

/Facepalm there goes your pointless rant again resetting yourself. how many times do you reset yourself when you cant even counter a argument in a day?
I’ve told you many flaws and ways to kill an thieve yet you keep going back to the same argument.

Calae.1738:

Stealth has always been a problem in any MMO. Any damage that you output upfront without time to setup, gives no warning to the victim. It’s too easy. Any noob can do it. Luckly, the Thief doesn’t have much control skills or else it would be a lot worse.

When you design a class that insta kills another player without giving enough time for that player to react; its a problem with the class not the player. It’s not fun for the person getting killed and it’s not fun for the person doing the killing either.

It’s completely stupid.

No time to react? Since when did Steal CnD BS Combo time to execute become less than 1 second? it takes at least a good 2-3 seconds to execute and if you dont react after getting hit by the steal you shouldnt even be alive.

Columba.9730:

Zephyrus.9680:

Columba.9730:

Happy to see others viewing this as a problem too. However, I think ANet needs to focus only on stealth to prevent perma stealthing. perhaps permastealthing doesn’t happen in spvp, but it’s rampant in wvwvw, as the myriad videos clearly show. Thieves in wvw can and do remain 100% stealthed while attacking the entire time. I doubt this is working as intended, and my guess is that culling enables thieves to bridge stealthed to non stealthed periods. A reveal debuff is more than reasonable and won’t hurt the class. good thieves will manage, others who don’t need to l2p.

First, any attacks that hit will break stealth, AND YES, they will reveal debuff the thief (OP video is an exploit if you didn’t realize yet).

Second, when I’m on my hammer-shout warrior I’m about 5 times more valuable in a zerg than on my thief.

Culling happens whether you’re a thief or any other class and it doesn’t matter if half a zerg is culled or stealth because AoE will hit regardless (and most damage in this game IS AoE).

Not sure what mechanic you would want changed. The D/P ‘perma stealth’ build is hard to play and isn’t even that effective. Everything else uses CnD which needs to hit.

Counters to stealth include stun, daze, blind, dodge, snare. And a bit of burst damage.

If you don’t understand a class, you won’t know the first thing how to fight it and it’s even more significant with thief because even their attacks rely on stealth. I’m guessing that’s why theres so much complaining on the forums, when by comparison, a D/D ele beats theif in almost every category (solo, small scale fights, and zerging).

nope, there’s evidence all over that thieves can attack and remain stealthed. videos have the evidence. secondly, I can see other classes as they attempt to unload their high cooldown low cast time attacks. unlike thieves that can spam high damage attacks and remain stealthed. lol.

Constant dps while staying in stealth? your kidding right? The only thing that keeps thieves in stealth while doing damage is CnD at the very last second of tick of stealth to renew it. if you do it at any other time you will get immune and get revealed.

Columba.9730:

yeah yeah. everyone other than thieves have to l2p. ok.

Why do you think i rarely have any problem vsing thieves when using my warrior? why? because i know how to fight them. Just cause some people like yourself have a problem and don’t get it yet doesn’t mean its over powering you just have to learn and adapt on how to fight thieves.

Columba.9730:

vespers.1759:

i think it’s unfair that my rapid fire can do 7k in 10 hits but a thief can do 7k+ in 1 hit. i got hit for a 5k steal today. come on. anyone can dodge my rapid fire, no one can dodge a steal from invis.

i don’t mind high dmg, but when you can hit 1 button and do it, or hit the same button and do it multiple times it jsut gets old very fast. also stealth stomp… come on.

i watched a thief dance around 10 people today downing and stomping from stealth. then he ran away.

90% of solo players i see in wvwvw are thieves. at this point i just run away when i see a thief, because i don’t stand a chance. it isn’t a L2P issue. i can handle other classes minus eles and some mesmers alright, but thieves are just something else.

yep, l2p addressed to all non thief players is pretty meaningless. It seems like desparation.

How is it meaningless ? People tell you how to counter thieves yet you say “durr nope impossible” and come up with another stupid arguement which we tell you off again then you go back to the first one its the same with you.. lol

You only rotate by perma stealth,culling, cant target. yet we told you all the ways you can find kill thieves for all these problems.

Columba.9730:

Well thousands have done exactly what you claim and get different results. they don’t play thieves though.

Different results = player skill of doing that. Not the class.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Lofat.2406:

Well put Red. Anytime I lose I look back and see what I could have done differently to win. Although the argument we will get here is “you’re permastealthed, we can’t see you”. I feel that’s complete bs… I’ve never engaged a thief that was 100% stealthed throughout the fight and I spend most of my time in wvw. I’d like to see video from the people like Columba and others who are posting in this thread of their own encounters with thieves so we all have a better idea of what’s happening.

I really wish that the people would bring up these thieves in pvp or even wvw if they go the lengths to use the report tool to figure out their names because kitten I want to know what THAT guy was doing because I don’t have that luck. Personally I think it’s a pride thing. People associate the weakest class defense with being incredibly easy to beat, so when we beat say a warrior then oh snap something isn’t right here. I think its inherently believed that if you see a thief that= a free kill (we have rangers for that : p). Like I said, people will only say something is fair if they are the victor. If they lost then the enemy clearly had some unbalanced class mechanic.

You know what I’ve even seen people do and complain about? Once in spvp I was immo’d and when someone ran up to me I CnD’d and he stopped, waited, I broke free killed him and called me a noob. Stealth does not mean I warped or entered a realm of gods in which I can spawn anywhere on the map and reign hell. Chances are, now everyone get close this is a big secret i want everyone to hear this….chances are, if you hit a thief with a crowd control and he doesn’t shadow step but instead goes into stealth
<.<
>.>
v.v
^.^
chances are, he’s still there gasp surely you cant just keep attacking that area no.
I cant tell you how many times people have downed me after ive went in stealth from like a shadow refuge and walked away letting me rez myself. Then they get angry and wonder wth I just did ….
one time i had a gs ranger almost kill me, I shad ref’d and he was literally staring me in the face! I was almost angry he didnt just swing and get me.

Cause shadow refugee makes you immune to all damage doesnt it? lol

Sebrent.3625:

Some of the players he fights are good.

Also, I should not be screwed against you because I have a teammate that blows except in the case that he somehow gets finished while you’re downed. There isn’t another class out there where given two equally skilled players, one suddenly has an advantage because the other one has a noob join the fight on their side.

All the things mentioned about the thief class “not being OP” that people have brought up have been largely dispelled by that video. I’ll go through them again:

• Have to miss “several cloak and daggers before [you are] in trouble”
• Have several ways to reset the fight
• Can take a good amount of punishment without +toughness gear
• Damage for a stealthy, non-glass cannon can take down even tanky/evasive characters … even when they have friends nearby.
• The Thief does not have to wait 3 seconds to re-stealth.

You miss 2 cloak and daggers your are already in trouble and lost of dps if not dead already.
Several ways of reset how? only hide in shadows and shadow steps assuming you have no iniatiave from missing your CnD
Take a good amount of punishment? you serious right here? if a butterfly lands on a thief they just go downed.
Just cause they are non glass cannon doesnt mean they are hard to kill, at most they have 20k hp with damage reduction of at least 2-3k of a GC thief for swapping for vit and they still have no toughness.
They do not have to wait 3 second to restealth. Yes, thief can chain stealth but if they screw up and stealth wears off before chaining they dont get stealthed at all and get revealed..

Sebrent.3625:

I agree, 1v1 downed state you’re pretty screwed, unless you’re a Thief near mobs as your #1 is good damage in most builds I’ve seen and #2 and #3 provide plenty of time to kill a random WvW mob.

Laika:
Not everyone has AOE/Cone interrupts. My Mesmer only has Focus and Greatsword and I don’t usually use Greatsword in WvW unless sieging. My Ranger’s stuns both require you to see the target.

Not everyone has a melee weapon that can hit a stealth target. Not an issue for me, but for others it is.

Not everyone has the direct damage to get a Thief off a downed teammate by blindly auto-attacking with a melee weapon. Many of us can’t kill someone in under a second with our class and decent power the way a Thief can or are simply running condition builds. Furthermore, the really tough stealth thieves are using Knight’s armor which makes them quite capable of eating these attacks. Furthermore, the Thief is stealthed, hence healing from traits while downing the player and then able to escape after downing.

This is not uncommon stuff. Again, there is a plethora of videos on YouTube featuring all of this, even against great players.

Use your greatsword 5 and res your teammate no? isnt that easy enough? lol if he trys to jump on you. You should have your stunbreak/blinks up and ready at all time when you know a thief is near by.
Not everyone runs shadow arts traits, There is alot of GC thieves who don’t even touch shadow arts.

This thread is also a 2 month of thread someone just dug it back up.

Columba.9730:

If it won’t affect permastealth in your opinion, how is it a nerf? My point is that declaring that ANY change to stealth will wreck the class is irresponsible. Developers need the flexibility to take stealth down a notch in the interest of a balanced game.

It doesn’t do anything to perma stealth but it hurts regular stealth for people who doesnt chain it to get a longer effect (people who actually uses stealth for combat).

So you think culling is always last the same amount of time? and it does reveal anytime a thief uses a blink/ lands a attack. Its nothing to do with stealth mechanic but culling.

I also want to say adding reveal timer does nothing to perma stealth.

Columba.9730:

simple slightly increase the stealth debuff time.

And by how much in your standard would be ok?

Columba.9730:

ensoriki.5789:

No worse than most? They’re base survivability is worse than everything but the Elementalist.

Lowest Health bracket.
Medium armor.
Only thing worse is Lowest health bracket + light armor. Which is the Ele…

I’m telling you roll that stealthless thief brah, do it and gain some perspective.
You’ll be surprised on both ends.

who’s talking about stealthless thieves? I am talking about minor adjustments to thieves. It’s irrational to claim that thieves are untouchables and can never have their stealth adjusted. all classes get their skills adjusted. adapt and move on. you can’t handcuff the developers to fix badly broken stealth mechanics in wvw. it’s not reasonable and it’s melodramatic.

Ok, since you keep continuing on ranting how stealth is broken name ways it can be “fixed” in your standard without tearing apart the whole stealth concept.

Sue.4361:

Jerks.3172:

Columba.9730:

understood, but other classes are just as squishy and face similar challenges.

Other classes have superior ranged skills (1200 range) while thieves are limited to (900 range) you might say this isnt huge difference but its pretty big the fact they only can use their shortbow and when you get damaged you forced to heal right? so you take more damage while healing isnt that counter productive?

Then they should set it so thieves are revealed at 900 range and then everything is even, yeah?

That takes the whole purpose of a surprise attack dont you think? if they can only stealth when only 900 range of you. Lets also look at it this way a enemy thief is 1200 range of you and dropped SR to cloak and all of a sudden he is revealed cause people are not in his 900 range.

Columba.9730:

yes we can see them attacking and remaining stealthed. We experience permastealthed thieves attacking. I already explained the hypothesis that culling allows this without 20 in shadow arts.

Wow your really hard headed arent you. I just explained it 3 times without 20 in shadow arts you can not maintain permastealth even with culling unless your using more than 1 utility skill that stealth you for example Blinding powder,SR. When most thieves run Signet of shadow, Shadow Step, and Shadow refugee.

If you think its possible enlighten me with 2 video perspective of one showing he has no shadow arts,permastealth with only SR, and hide in shadow for utility/heal stealth skills. and one showing culling permastealth you are always constantly arguing about

Columba.9730:

The problem with your position is that the evidence is against you. both the videos splashed all over these forums, and our personal experience refute your assertion that permastealth while dealing damage is impossible. I agree that on paper it’s impossible, but in reality it happens all the time. I suppose bridging culling with stealth allows it. I think this is the crux of the issue. Theory says this shouldnt be possible, yet we all experience permastealth + damage from thieves all the time. If anet prevents this, I think the arguments would reduce.

Its not perma stealthing all the videos you showed is them perma stealthing but are they doing any damage? No and the videos of perma stealthing is there i say it again at least 20 into shadow arts, without shadow arts you will run out of iniatiave and be force to pop SR here i am repeating myself since you simply don’t understand it, not all thieves run shadow arts.

Now you are arguing permastealth and getting jib but this is simply not true you can tell when a thief is near by cause you can hear their unstealth sound, so you should be on your guard with breakstuns/blinks to counter act his “ok” damage burst which should be easily countered unless your a glass cannon yourself which then you are just asking to get killed.

Its called the CnD steal combo.If you say culling it has nothing to do with just the thief class mesmer can can mass cloak maybe you should complain in mesmer forums also making zergs pop out of no where right?

Columba.9730:

it’s been shown that tab targetting doesn’t work while targets are culled. I’ve tried it myself.

It does work i have done it myself and many has too. This is how i find stealth classes when culling hits. The only time it wont work is when they are still offically in “stealth” not being culled.

Columba.9730:

Tab doesn’t work when the target is culled. that’s part of the problem with stealth in this game. it allows stealthers to bridge non-stealth periods with stealth periods to get perma stealth even though they don’t have to spec for it.

You clearly never played a thief and yet your crying nerfs when you don’t even understand the class traits and skills.It does work.. i have done this many times when vsing invisibility characters and others have too. Please just stop trying to continue when there is a answer to this.

There you go again with perma stleath when i just clearly explained it to you if you dont spec on shadow arts.

Here i’ll even post it again for you this is what i said

Due to 3 seconds cloak / No iniatiave regen upon stealthing. He will run out of iniatiave and will be forced to pop SR if he wants to continue stealthing

Columba.9730:

thanks for admitting that it’s possible. secondly, with culling it’s doable without giving up anything.

When did i ever say permastealth is not possible.? Now you argue culling and I also gave you a answer to this before just use “tab” and find the “miss” you will find him and kill him if he isnt on shadow art spec. Due to 3 seconds cloak / No iniatiave regen upon stealthing. He will run out of iniatiave and will be forced to pop SR if he wants to continue stealthing here is where you nuke the crap out of it. Easy as pie.

Now stop bring the same arguments over and over again.

Columba.9730:

no one is talking about eliminating stealth. small adjustments won’t kill your class, and they will make wvwvw far more fair. permastealth and the best dps in the game, combined with high mobility are a bad combination in one class.

You do realize permastealth is only doable if you have about 20 into shadow arts, not all thieves run shadow arts. Shadow art = throw away damage how is this highest dps?
Also perma stealthing does nothing to oppositions cause they arent doing any damage.

Stop with these QQing you come up with the same arguments all the time and you refuse and block out the answer people gave to you.

ensoriki.5789:

Columba.9730:

It doesn’t make sense that tiny changes to stealth would break the entire class. WHat’s so special about thieves that they should be immune from nerfs? I thought stealth wasn’t the main skill for this class anyway.

Go take.
S/P + P/P
P/P + SB
or S/P +SB.
No stealth heal or utils.
Go run in WvW and try for the keep.
Know no one will ever lose target on you and you don’t have protection.
Go dodge all you want since you’re not doing anything significant to anybody while you do so. Not like you have Phantasm’s attacking while you dodge, or a Pet coming at you.
Serious you’ll see how narrow the defenses of the proffession are and the relevancy of stealth.

Should not form an idea on where Stealth needs to be if you have not seen what life without Stealth is. It’s just a bunch of dodging around without seperable damage and dying once sneezed on because target never breaks, so you have all this homing crap on you without Protection reducing any of it or a high hp buffer.

Very well put, stealth is absolutely vital to thieves defenses and the fact we only have 1 breakstun.

Columba.9730:

Jerks.3172:

Columba.9730:

yet again thief apologists chant l2p anything anything is questioned about thieves. just get others to help you kill the thief.

You’re everywhere when it comes to “thieves”
Like post said before thieves have a teleport you have a window to stomp him if he blinks use skills like(steal,blinks to finish him off without interrupting the cast time of the stomp.) there if you wait another 2 seconds he can go stealth but doesnt reposition himself, here is where you autoattack spam. Simple enough?

i usually get 5 dps classes to kill him while he's down.

I’m done replying to you, your way too stubborn and ignorant when people actually tell you how to counter thieves. Yet you still run to every thief forums and go ErMahGerd Thieves OP needs nerf.

GL ANet hope you dont fall for all this QQing Columba has made.

Columba.9730:

yet again thief apologists chant l2p anything anything is questioned about thieves. just get others to help you kill the thief.

You’re everywhere when it comes to “thieves”
Like post said before thieves have a teleport you have a window to stomp him if he blinks use skills like(steal,blinks to finish him off without interrupting the cast time of the stomp.) there if you wait another 2 seconds he can go stealth but doesnt reposition himself, here is where you autoattack spam. Simple enough?

Columba.9730:

thieves have cc and stealth though too.

the only cc from thieves is 3 from and say if they decide to press 2 times and try come back to attack them guess what they get? “Out of Range”. Stealth for 3 seconds woop too strong. What are they going to do after they blow Shadow Step and Shadow Refugee? Not like they are going to come back with say another weapon setup and engage just to get by Aoe without any escaping skills

Columba.9730:

Not really. ranged classes get damaged from other ranged classes, so taking damage isn’t solely happening to thieves. Also there are gap closers for melee classes, so all these classes are facing the same challenges.

In a Group scenrio with your short bow out.
Classes like
Rangers have a push back,daze,traps to counter this
Mesmer have pushback,blink, clones,stealth
Warrior have pushback, tons of cc, hp
Guardian have walls,root, and invul, hp
Ele Blink,invuln, stability with vigor, regen + water heals.
Engi have tons of tricks up their sleeves.
Thief use 3 on ShortBow 4 times or the 5 2 times or Shadow step, try for SR get aoed to death and heal 3 second stealth.

If you havent realized this other than the 3 skill on Short bow they are losing on all the dps while classes like rangers can still fire while dealing with the enemy they just cced.

Columba.9730:

understood, but other classes are just as squishy and face similar challenges.

Other classes have superior ranged skills (1200 range) while thieves are limited to (900 range) you might say this isnt huge difference but its pretty big the fact they only can use their shortbow and when you get damaged you forced to heal right? so you take more damage while healing isnt that counter productive?

killahmayne.9518:

My suggestion is to perhaps introduce a 30-50% movement decrease while in stealth. I think this would be fair so #1: Thieves can’t simply disengage battles they cannot win as easily, #2: Stealth is used more strategically instead of a panic button mechanic that people just mash and everything will be fine, #3: Promotes better positioning/placement.

Or maybe you take 10% more damage while in stealth or something, but some sort of penalty for using stealth should be implemented to offset the never ending culling issues. And this should apply to all classes who are in stealth mode.

Problem about these nerf would be, You cant re-position for a back stab since you have only 3 seconds and backstab will only be effective when using steal cloak and dagger combo if you have 30-50% speed debuff and speed debuff from MMO they have a WAY longer stealth timer than 3-4 seconds. As for taking more damage in stealth thieves are usually already super squishy and avoids big battles this would make us stay further away from actually helping groups else we would get random AoE’d to death.

Columba.9730:

Many of us experience culling far longer than 0.5 s. if that’s all it were, there wouldnt so many complaints. Secondly, the so called low dps of a perma stealthed thief is a myth. maybe it’s low compared to other thiefs, but I’ve seen perma thieves dishing out 5k+ hits, even though my armor is 3k and my toughness is 1900. So i guess that’s lower than 10k hits reported by other thief victims, but at 5k a pop, it doesn’t take long for a perma stealther to kill players, particularly when they cannot be targeted.

Last, ive seen CnD do 2-3K damage. that’s not weak.

last last, the rhythm of other classes has been messed up with changes. we had to adapt.

Use Tab next time, even if “culling” is there you can target the thief.

kenshinakh.3672:

Mhmm I also play warrior and elementalists. I’ve also played glassy thief and other thieves still failed to kill me.

Really. Thieves are so OP that I enjoy killing them in WvW because I know a lot of thieves aren’t good (there’s a few very good ones though!). The key to beating a class is knowing their fighting style. It’s just something that takes practice! You’ll never get better unless you try hard, right?

By the way, if you need tips on beating thieves, it’s all over this thread. All these pages have hints and direct directions on how to fight thieves, and they work or else people wouldn’t be posting about it.

By the way, culling doesn’t really help the “perma-stealth” trick of HSing through smoke circle. Culling from stealth is around 0.5-1.5s max, definitely not enough to give anything permanent. (If you think about it, if thieves just perma stealth all day long, what can they do? It’s a big “i’m right here!” circle.) Also, perma stealth like this prevents you from doing any damage, and if someone decides to walk near the circle, you’ll hit him and you’ll be low on initiative and will die pretty quickly.
Now, there’s a different type of perma stealth, and that’s just chain CnD. It’s way too weak to do any sustained damage, and killing slowly leads to the possibility of more reinforcements.

You can’t increase stealth reveal buff without a major revamp of the class. Those 3s of reveal is critical to a thief’s HP (well, you still take the same damage when invisi). Changing that reveal timer will mess up all the thieves’ “rhythm”. Yes, rhythm. There’s a rhythm to their combat, and if you haven’t realized it yet, go check it out! I don’t even check when my revealed buff is off because I keep a beat in my head and any duration changes to revealed will definitely require adjusting that is much bigger than you’d think. There’s no need for a “temp” change either. Culling is situational, so temp changes are not going to be balanced.

Thank you, someone that isn’t a thief and knows the situation of one. I will admit it is hard dealing with thieves cause they have invisibility makes you have to react almost instantly but if you do react he lost quite alot of burst from you reacting by popping invulnerably or if they are HS spamming which people hardly does anymore dodge initial HS and pop a blink or invulnerably and all their iniatives is gone and becomes a easy kill or he runs. like you said in your post more you practice and learn thieves are not as big of a threat as people think they are.

Dodge 2 HS by rolls, if he continues to HS Blink/Invuln the rest GG. Thief has no more initiative and now a easy kill.

Columba.9730:

Panacea.4927:

Because some suddenly up popping smoke screens and black powders are totally not obvious…

actually not obvious or helpful. Any decent thief moves away from said smoke, and it’s not easy to see. they should make it as glaringly obvious as portals if not more obvious. Lol wth 1900 toughness and 3k armor, backstab hits me for 4500+. NO idea what you are referring to with 1.5k .

Black powder not easy to see? Smokey clouds coming out of a red circle… lol. Only a blind person would not be able to notice it.

Columba.9730:

ViRuE.3612:

jan.9745:

Im sorry but you are the one, who dont know what you are talking. Watch this video on how fast is the initiative regen make sure you watch the entire video! You are the one need to L2P and you are the one need to learn how to play a real man dont hide!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZCWywAXmVP4

I love that video, keep posting it everywhere. It pretty much proves this:

- The thief beats terrible players
- The thief quickly beats uplevelled players
- The thief admits that smart players give him trouble
- The thief admits that many duels with dagger elementalists can last up to 8 minutes
- The thief can trait for different things (shock, horror!) and one of those includes initiative regen
- There are a TON of really bad players in WvWvW
- There are a TON of really bad players who regardless of the ways to counter a thief and regardless of how many times you tell them still won’t get it

Honestly, I hardly even need to mention some of that zerg (which in actual fact he barely annoyed) killed themselves going over the cliff. 99% of them didn’t even care he was there at all.

I’ll quote Jonathan Sharp here:

“Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game.”

Exactly what you saw in the video – mobility, stealth, high DPS burst and taking on chosen targets which are natuarlly squishy, uplevelled or… I dunno, maybe just there to make up a zerg and get some karma or something. Anytime anyone with any clue at all turned their attention on the thief he was in trouble.

Still, I guess he doesn’t post videos of himself getting his kitten handed to him. I mean it doesn’t take much, you can see his health and sats. I have similar armor/toughness on my thief and let me tell you I fold like a wet paper bag against good players regardless if I’m in stealth or not.

ok so highest dps, perma stealth and best mobility? if so, that’s broken. It’s always the same thing with you guys. Anyone who questions your god mode needs to l2p. why is it that thieves get 10x+ the complaints of other classes, and we don’t see these players complaining about other classes? logic disconnect.

Highest BURST damage, stealth, mobility for your initiative (wont be able to engage after because of lack ofinitiative) . What do thieves trade for damage thier toughness and hp.

Ele high sustained damage, high survivability, has 3 breakstuns skills that, teles, stability, invul, and gives them regneration and vigor, has really good mobility but doesnt have the highest dps.

100b Warriors High DPS, High HP, Lots of CC, trade for Toughness and some HP.

These are the 3 classes being cried nerf they all give away something and accels at others.

Sebrent.3625:

@Jonny.9370 and @Daecollo.9578
It is not about cooldowns. It is about actually seeing the ability and having a chance to react. There is a massive difference between reacting to something you can actually see being performed and simply guessing what they will perform next.

Warrior:

• I see bolas so have a chance to dodge/block/etc.
• I can use condition removal to get out of bolas
• I can see bull’s charge so have a chance to dodge/block/etc.
• I can use a stunbreaker to get out of bull’s charge
• I can see Hundred Blades so I can dodge/block/etc.

Thief:

• I can see him stealth but not I must guess at what time he is going to backstab me.
  He has 3+ seconds to choose from.
  • 2 Dodge rolls don’t even cover 3+ seconds and leaves you with no stamina to dodge cloak and dagger so then what would you do for the next backstab even if this did work.
  • Blocks don’t last longer than 3 seconds but thieves have multiple ways to get more than 3 seconds of stealth.

Thieves are only extremely strong on initiation if you actually see a thief running towards you he is most likely to Steal CnD backstab combo you. So all you have to do is learn the Steal range dodge when you estimate is close enough he misses his Steal there goes around 4-6k of his burst damage and he wasted his basilisk venom as well. Now say if a Thief is already cloaked and homing into your position you need to react fairly fast once you see a damage tick, use a break stun blink skill or invul skill and boom his burst is gone, now happy hunting!