Guild Wars 2

Ridiculous? So you think that:
1. It is fair to handicap backstab builds or any build that gets extra dmg from positioning itself just by choice of the model? So how about then they account for that assuming everyone will be taking small asuras and bump up our dmg then?
2. asura models should have significant advantage over other models in pvp?

I think you are ridiculous. And it is not just 50% difference it is about 75% difference if you hit from front or back.

Taym.8326:

Mufa.1326:

I think it is a really bad idea.
Appearance of teams running multiples of single class and dominating is actually very good data point about OP-ness of the class and need to tone it down.
Now you would completely remove that data.
The solution is to balance the class, not to destroy data that points out that class is OP.

What he is suggesting is a way of balance as well, instead of having 3 ele’s spam heals on each other now only one would do it. ….

Sorry to be negative but again NO. What he suggests is to force 5v5 to be more balanced by making every team (almost) the same. (Now composition like 5 warriors that some ppl like to play becomes impossible. And if you have 2-3 super-classes that all teams bring in, then remaining 2 spots will be all the differentiation between teams)

At the same time his suggestion will severely obscure class imbalances.

Get it? “5v5 balance” versus “class balance”. 5v5 balance should be product of good class balance, not of forcing ‘1 class per team’.

Again, sorry to be negative but I think it is really bad idea, now if two buddies like that play the same class and they play it well, they cannot be in the same team, or one of them will be forced to play the class he does not care to play. Come on guys, ask ANET to do their kittening job properly (balance classes), do not make bad suggestions like this.
Games are about having fun and letting people do what they want within a good framework. Currently ANET needs to improve the framework (balance classes, tone down AOE and severely tone down rezzing ability in downed state) if they want 5v5 to get better. If you start putting severe limitations, like preventing ppl to play classes they want to play, you will lose even more players.

You guys need to ask yourself if gaming population is going to join and stay in 5v5 in order to play the mode where the most important aspect of the game is “downed state management” and “upstate management” is (mostly) dumbed down to AOE spam.
So far it did not work, but if you think it is going to be fine from now on then ok.

You can talk about the love ‘vast majority of ppl you know’ has for the current state of 5v5, but that does not fit the reality in which 5v5 is a dead game currently.

Azadoras, it is very simple thing for me to grasp after very little play what the focus of 5v5 is (I already mentioned it many times)

You find it fun? Good for you, because very few ppl apparently do as well. I am aware than even the stupidest aspects of game will always have its defenders. Question is whether this appeals to wider gaming population.

I was merely commenting about what I find to be aspects of 5v5 that are out of sync with what people expect and what is generally perceived as fun/boring.
Given how good mechanics of ‘upstate’ are and how interesting 1v1 is, 5v5 has potential to become much more than it currently is. Due to bad design 5v5 has actually been dumbed down where focus has severely shifted from ‘upstate management’ to ‘downstate management’, and downstate management is just too simple and too boring. Not only that but even upstate management has been reduced more toward AOE spamming than actually playing the class with skill.

Azadoras.2790:

Sand Beagle.9867:

Azadoras.2790:

“Nerf (strategy/class/comp I loose against), it is OP! (strategy/class/team comp I always win against) is fine. Buff (my strategy/class/team comp).”

That is a pointless quote since individual player skill has nothing to do with an overpowered/underpowered game mechanic. You cant tell one way or the other whether it is the player’s fault or the game’s fault based solely on player input. You need to do some objective reasoning to find the answer.

A lot of people like to l2p spam without really taking the time to objectively consider if that mechanic is overpowered or not. Its far easier to just ignore the issue and assume someone is bad than to devote brain power to figuring out how to fix it.

I am not sure in which way the stomp mechanic is overpowered? Seems to me it is just the same for both sides though the team accepting it exists and acting accordingly wins.

First, just because elementalist is ‘available’ to both teams, does not mean it is not OP.

Second, it is not matter of it being ‘overpowered’. It is a matter of whether it is FUN for downstate mini game nonsense to become more important than what is advertised as ACTUAL (upstate) game.
Let us face it, downstate is pretty simple little nonsense, if you allow ‘the skill in downstate’ to become the most important part of your 4v4 and 5v5 engagements, you simply have a dumbed down game that ppl will avoid.

Third, people talk about ‘skill’ in downstate. Problem is that there is not much opportunity to be skillful in downstate nonsense. It is very easy for very clueless ppl to become really good at downed state management especially if they have tools (frequent interrupts like hammer guardian, mass interrupts like aoe fear). If you do not have the interrupt tools then you can just try to rez/(stomp|dps).

Downstate, in many situations, is like playing a game (call it game_X) where you have one button that you can press and you need to press it as fast as possible after the light bulb changes color from green to red. Tell me, who wants to play such game? Noone, you are correct.
Now, tell me who wants to play a mmo where all the skill of getting ppl down is negated by the stupid minigame that is exactly like game_X? THat is exactly what GW2 5v5 currently is.

I think people are missing the point. People are now giving me tips on how to manage down state, or telling me how it is good that “management of downstate” is exactly the difference between better and less good teams. Problem is not that I need tips, or that I am unaware of the importance of ‘management of downstate’.

My message to you was that after 10 days of playing 5v5 I already got very bored with it BECAUSE it severely over emphasizes downstate over the ACTUAL (by actual i mean ‘upstate’, i.e. getting ppl from full health to downed state) game. And even the ACTUAL game is dumbed down with the strength of the AOE spam.

You need to think about this. Do you want new people coming into GW2 or existing playerbase in pve and wvw to ask about 5v5 spvp and get an answer:
O yeah, the most important aspect of 5v5 is to be coordinated in rezzing and to aoe spam the downed enemy. So bring a lot of aoe and make sure you practice good rezzing coordination with your team. All these skills you have in “upstate” and how you use them? Not that important after all, it can easily bypassed by bringing aoe class and doing an aoe spam, but make sure you get your downed state management right.

If you think you will attract people into game with this type of game then OK. Forget my post. If you think this type of game will have a problem appealing to the large population, then you and ANET have a problem with their spvp structure. SO do not defend it but suggest to them to fix it.

I guarantee you this: If 3v3, 2v2 and 1v1 games were offered, they would instantly become much more popular then 5v5 as it currently stands. Both because it is more convenient to make teams for those and because they are much more fun because downstate management is much less important and ‘upstate’ management becomes more central (and aoe also significantly scales down with less spammers).

I dunno why they advertise ‘upstate’ skills when they are selling the game when they made downstate actually more important in their only official version (5v5).
They should advertise how this game is great because of virtues of synchronized rezzing.
Something like this: Come to GW2, imagine the fun you will have rezzing donwed buddy together with your 3 teammates in less than 0.5s and getting back up in the same manner.

It is just laughable how low-skill-requirement the 5v5 actually is.
Just try 1v1-ing some of those people from some of the top teams to see what I mean. And those people can be part of the top team exactly because it is not that important how terrible they are in ‘upstate management’, important thing is how good they are in downstate management (which is filtered out in duel) and if they bring aoe spam with them.

Notice how 5v5 makes downed state nonsense and aoe spam by far the most important aspect of the game and how this dumbs the game down. So no wonder ppl do not play it as long as it is like this, it is a game that deemphasizes skill and emphasizes long hours spent playing with the same bunch of guys.

This is becoming too long. Point is:
Making downed state such that it becomes the most important part of the game is a bad design. It is not fun, it is not what people want to play, people will not play it.
Proof is in the pudding as they say. Look at the kittening population of 5v5.

Shar:
1. Yeah very coordinated to press one key after their guy goes down. We were severely ‘outrezzed’.
2. Why am I not supposed to kill ppl 1v2 or 1v3? ANET decreed so? I already down ppl 1v2 and 1v3, downed state makes it very difficult to impossible to stomp them.
3. Downed state is NOT the only thing that keeps game from being completely dominated by GC setups. One has to be very bad player or have his cooldowns down to be bursted down by glass cannon. So 5v5 glass cannons have no chance against balanced players. I think you have no idea what you are talking about.
4. Of course, every class has some AOE, I was not talking about that.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Mufa.1326:

I am not gonna go into the huge differences in ability to stomp or prevent being stomped in team fights by different classes. It is just laughable. In our first tourney together we ended up fighting PZ. Ranger buddy and I were fighting two eles most of the game.

This would be the problem. Matchmaking is coming, so (hopefully) soon first-time tournament players won’t be pitted against the best teams in the world (500+hours of practice together vs. team’s first tournament…good luck).

Also, if you’re in a 2v2 against 2 eles, you gotta down the same one twice within about a minute, or down both at the same time. I’m not qq-ing (we have plenty of pages on that already) but it’s an extremely harsh learning curve for teams trying tournaments together for the first time. The “rules” aren’t exactly intuitive.

Matchmaking was not a problem. It was a good and pretty close game. The problem is what i described. Extremely badly designed game (downed state) in 5v5 setting.

There is also problem in this community: reflexive defense of ANET, reflexive L2P by morons I can just destroy in duel, reflexive ‘you are minority’ by people who are playing mode that is pretty much dead.

I will tell you this: People want to play the ACTUAL game which is: getting enemy from full health to downed state.
This stomping and downed state nonsense is bearable if it is SMALL part of the game. Once it becomes DOMINANT, as it currently is in 5v5, to the point where it is more difficult to stomp the guy than to get him downed (yes, unless your team composition is AOE spam), game becomes DUMB. Noone will want to play it. Witness the dead population of the game.

One more thing: ANET seems to be very dumb/slow to realize and correct mistakes. They were being told for ages to make single game 2 teams que but they kittened around with 8 team que until the killed the population.

Now you guys are defending this nonsense where if guy has enough skill to down ppl in 1v5, he has no chance whatsoever to finish him off and it takes half a sec for his other 4 teammates to rez him up. So 1v5 is impossible, 1v4 is impossible, 1v3 is impossible, 1v2 is barely possible. Again…who will want to play that game?

Where is the skill demonstrated if it is impossible to go and do something exceptional? Is the meaning of skill now in synchronized rezzing and ‘bringing good composition that can do good AOE spam’?

Lordrosicky.5813:

Almost everyone loves the downed state because it adds a whole new layer of excitement to the game. Its just plain fun and adds for new strategies and different builds are viable because of it.

The day the remove downed state almost everyone will quit the game. Those who hate down state are beyond a minority. They are a tiny proportion of the community. This isnt a fact but just what is seen even on the forums where everyone QQs ALMOST everyone likes the downed state. In game everyone loves it. Nobody ever has moaned in chat about the downed state in any game I have ever played on GW2.

So yeh. Downed state is amazing. L2p

Yeah, L2P, meaning learn-to-press-X-to-rez-teammate-all-together-as-soon-as-possible maaaan.
Do you think that should be the main skill differential between teams as it is now the case?

Those who hate downed state are beyond minority? Let me tell you a secret: People who play 5v5 are a beyond minority in this game. One big reason for that is that it is dumbed down to the point where it is painful how dumb it is.
It is so dumb that pressing single (rez) key quickly after your teammate goes down is more important than everything else in the game. Another reason it is so dumb is that aoe spam is so strong.
I am trying to help here. You guys are fumbling around asking why is the game dead. Well, big reason is because it is dumb. There are other reasons (it is inconvenient, etc). But after playing for 10 days I am convinced that it is because 5v5 is super super dumb.

Only person who can ‘love’ the downed state as it stands now is a person who sucks in actual game (getting person from full health into downed state) and needs to ‘bailed out’ in 1sec by his teammates’ synchronized rez, while running aoe spam classes so when enemy gets downed they can all just aoe spam the downed body and players trying to rez the enemy.

Sorry, it makes the 5v5 game very dumb. And if you do not believe me, just look at the population. Pretty much everyone agrees with me that 5v5 as is now is severly dumb.

My team ran composition without pretty much any aoe. It happens we down the guy 5 times and 5 times he gets rezzed. If one of ours gets down, expect severe aoe spam on the body.

Who wants to play that nonsense? Do you think I want to practice with my teammates how to rez quickly? Come on.

ahuba.6430:

I really don’t think the problem is in 5vs5, of course 4vs4 and 3vs3 will be more than welcome in the near future (as im sure those modes will come), but 5v5 is fine aswell. And about aoe, they already said theres a nerf inc.

It is not just aoe.
It is too high importance of playing ‘downed state’ well. Game should not be dumbed down to the point where “downed state management” becomes more important than ‘getting person into downed state’.

AOE is simply laughably bad design. You have to be pretty dumb not to realize in advance that making AOE as strong as single target dmg is gonna cause problems in 5v5 where you fight for points that are size of aoe field.

Sprawl.3891:

they were supposedly going to address AoE, but obviously they havent done anything yet and since the big pvp/wvw patch is not happening in february now i dont we wont see any meaningful changes to pvp for another 2 months despite them talking about aoe changes a month ago.

Well, no wonder 5v5 game is dead.
First it is very inconvenient to make teams and I thought that is the biggest problem.
However, after playing 5v5 for about 10 days, I can tell you that problem is that it is severely dumb (AOE spam being too strong and downed state allowing for too easy rezzing).

Skyro.3108:

Yeah 5v5 is about downed state management, and yeah 5v5 is dominated by AoEs… but how in the hell does that lead you to the conclusion that you should be able to stomp ppl 1v5 LMAO. That doesn’t solve anything other than you being able to dominate hot joins even more.

They need to balance out the downed states among the classes first and see how that plays out and then take it from there.

That did not ‘lead’ me to the mentioned conclusion. Where did you read that?

AOE being way too strong is obviously a problem. And game artificially limiting what single guy can do is another problem. I just talked about both of them in one post.

What I claim is this: if skill is to have meaning in this game, as it currently has very little meaning in 5v5, then they need to allow for decent chance to stomp the guy you down. So if you down the guy in 1v5 you should also have decent chance of stomping him,; you should not be in position where you have no chance whatsoever. As it stands, 1v3 is pretty much impossible to finish stomp unless two guys are brain dead. It is however not impossible to 1v3 and down one guy. That, in my opinion, is very bad design catered to people with low skill. Whenever game artificially limits single guy in how large group he can defeat, it is a bad design. Terribly badly designed downed mechanic does exactly that. It just makes me laugh when two guys press single button and bring their guy up in 1 second or so, it is a joke.

As it stands 1v1 in this game requires some skill (less than it should due to dumbed down mechanics such is autofacing).

5v5 unfortunately requires pretty much no skill to do well, just well synchronized team doing very low skill kitten in synchronized manner. All you need is bunch of aoe spamming classes and synchronized rezzing. Whichever team has those two aspects down better is likely to win. I know people call that ‘skill’/‘communication’ etc…but let us face it; it is stupid. Who da kitten wants to play such game?

You tell me how much skill it requires to bring engi, necro, 2 eles and trap ranger and spam AOE as fast as possible and to rez the downed guy together?

NevirSayDie.6235:

Mufa.1326:

I am not gonna go into the huge differences in ability to stomp or prevent being stomped in team fights by different classes. It is just laughable. In our first tourney together we ended up fighting PZ. Ranger buddy and I were fighting two eles most of the game.

This would be the problem. Matchmaking is coming, so (hopefully) soon first-time tournament players won’t be pitted against the best teams in the world (500+hours of practice together vs. team’s first tournament…good luck).

Also, if you’re in a 2v2 against 2 eles, you gotta down the same one twice within about a minute, or down both at the same time. I’m not qq-ing (we have plenty of pages on that already) but it’s an extremely harsh learning curve for teams trying tournaments together for the first time. The “rules” aren’t exactly intuitive.

Actually matchup was not a problem. Problem is what I described above: dumbing down the game by making ‘downed state management’ essentially more important than what is supposed to be ‘main’ game. And of course, severe imbalances in ‘downed state survivability’ of different classes.

Yeah, unfortunately good simple-to-implement ideas are not priority for these developers.

They are spending their time on more important things, such is forcing us to play temple for one whole week. Random map is too difficult to implement apparently ( or some nonsense about tracking meta for each map, instead of freezing everything about the team (traits/weapons/class etc) at tourney submit and forcing people to make team composition when facing uncertainty of map choice)….
…they are what they are, abysmal.

So, recently some ppl and I decided to try 5v5 here and there. We played decent number of games.

Here is my short observation about 5v5:
5v5 game is dominated by “downed state management” and AOE spamming (as a part of AOE spamming). It really really dumbs down the game. While game mechanics are decent at 1v1 (duel) level which essentially filters out downed state, larger fights become very boring and stupid and dominated by two aspects above (synchronized rezzing, aoe spamming).

What do I mean by this:
1. What distinguishes really good teams in team fights is not so much their ability to ‘not get downed and down the enemy first’ but rather their management of the downed state (of their own members and of enemy). By this I primarily mean synchronized rezzing of their downed ppl and AOE spam on the downed enemy.
2. Downed state management makes it essentially impossible to 1v3 and stomp someone (and in 1v2 it is really really hard). Dumbed down mechanics of the game (such is autofacing on skills etc) make it already very difficult to down someone 1v3 (since most of the crap 3 guys throw at you will hit even if they are clueless positioning/facing wise). However, the fact that synchronous rez of the other two guys will get the guy up before you execute your stomp (and I am not even going to go into them cc-ing you while you are sitting duck for 3+ seconds). This, in my opinion, simply diminishes importance of individual skill and dumbs down the game. You give us oh up to 20-30 skills to use them skillfully and down the guy but then you completely negate that by his two oh-so-skillfull teammates pressing single button to heal him up. Wow….what a stupid design.
Simply said: it is more important that the two team-mates of the downed guy be quick to press single key and rez him once their buddy is downed in 3v1, rather than for them to actually play well and down the single guy before he downs one of their own. It also completely negates the effort of single guy who actually managed to stay alive and down the enemy in 1v3 (while juggling whatever number of skills).

Does this sound as a proper design of a game? I think it is beyond stupid. And no wonder game is dead and ppl do not want to play stupid 5v5 mode and are requesting smaller games (1v1, 2v2 and 3v3). Sorry ANET, just big fail here.

I am not gonna go into the huge differences in ability to stomp or prevent being stomped in team fights by different classes. It is just laughable. In our first tourney together we ended up fighting PZ. Ranger buddy and I were fighting two eles most of the game. Let us just say that between non-downed guy mist form rezzing and downed guy vapor forming and non-downed guy aoe knockbacks it is really comical trying to stomp the guy even in 2v2 when ppl know what they are doing.

If they want 5v5 game to be meaningful, downed state should be such that if someone downs the guy in 1v5, he still has at least 50/50 chance of stomping that guy (yes versus other 4 trying to ’rez’him; it is enough he has to survive 5 ppl on him while dealing sufficient dmg to down one of them, what is the kittening point of negating all that effort by making it impossible to stomp the downed guy?).
I have some idea how to do this:
1. Stomp should be much quicker (but not too quick as to make it impossible to interrupt by someone who reacts on time). 3+ sec sitting duck is enough to die like 5 times to burst of single glass cannon.
2. Invulnerable ppl should not be able to stomp/rez (no mist form stomping, no mist form rezzing).
3. healing of rezzed person should be such that if 4 teammates start rezing at the same time the stomper starts stomping they should not rez him on time. Wow you will say, but yeah, if they cannot manage to interrupt the stomper, then they should not win that particular case (rezing as opposed getting stomped).

In other words…downed guy should be pretty much a dead guy with very significant effort needed to bring him back.

They do not care at all.
If they did, they would put in 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3 in the game already. 5v5 is so inconvenient for most of the people that the pvp population is deservedly dead.

jportell.2197:

The LAST thing rangers need is nerfed lol… And each class attracts certain play styles while the current gaming mode encourages the use of certain play styles. I really hope they come up with newer maps ones that Warriors will be in more demand for. But the game mode that we have is whats limiting the diversity in the top players. Not the class mechanics.

I was not calling for ranger nerf, it was a hypothetical example to illustrate the point.

I agree that we need more game modes and more group sizes (from 1v1 to 5+).
And we need proper ranking system for each mode. All those rankings would give a lot of useful info on where buffs/nerfs are needed for proper balancing of the game. Plus, all those modes would make people flock to what they love to play/watch and contribute to the popularity of the game (both in terms of viewers of streams and playing population).

All the best.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

first thing. MUFA who are u? i see u in my forums making 0 sense and i never seen u in pvp once? you must be EU or do you just talk in here about stuff u dont know?

1. And who are you? Just a nobody when it comes to balance, like everyone else.
2. If i make 0 sense why do you always end up losing discussions with me? Why do you always avoid answering my points and try to character assassinate me? Why do not you answer my points above since each of them makes a lot of sense. Yes, you are being selfish and you are afraid that the build you play will get nerfed, while you are trying to bs around the fact.

3. I know enough about the game for sure, and as I suggested to you before: you can bring 8 different ppl that main 8 different classes from your clan. Each of them can duel me 5 times. If I win 20+ duels, stop talking crap to me and stop L2P-ing me.

jportell.2197:

1v1 Balance Depends on who is in the keyboard. Some classes need major buffs (ENGIS AND RANGERS) all other classes need minor nerfs or adjustments… Mesmer AOE damage is still a joke when we try to take a guardian or a d/d ele. I actually scream when I do a mindwrack right after diversion and the guardian or eles hp doesnt even drop 1/4.

That is a nonsense statement. Of course that huge skill gap (who is at the keyboard) can compensate for huge imbalances. That, however, tells you nothing about balance. Imagine if there was ranked 1v1 que and the best warrior ranked 150th, while there were 30 mesmers and 30 trap rangers in front of him. Just because that warrior can beat 99.99999% of all the trap rangers and mesmers in the game (who is at the keyboard) it does not mean his class does not need buffs and that trap rangers and mesmers do not need nerf (in such case). Why would the best warrior in the game be in teh 150th place? He should be in or close to the top 10 together with the best of each class.

Blame ANET for not giving us ranked SoloQue.
ANET is hurting itself by being stubborn about this issue:
1. Ppl love to do it, it is stupid of ANET to not provide its customers mode they would love to play.
2. Having ranked 1v1 que is great (I would say necessary) piece of data for proper balancing system. Proper balancing system should start with balancing dmg on each class so that they get fair representation in top ranks (essentially you make class pay for all the perks it has via dmg tweaks). Once dmg on the class is adjusted so it is balanced in 1v1, then AOE aspects of skills and combo fields should be adjusted (diminishing returns) so that the class is blanced in 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 settings.
3. It would contribute to the popularity of the game. 1v1 matches (dm) are easy to understand/watch and they could contribute to the popularity of the game streams. Expecting people to understand 5v5 stream while ppl do not even have chance to watch and understand 1v1 of different classes is stupid (given how much stuff gets thrown around in 5v5 battle viewers are probably going ‘wtf just happened, I am turning this kitten off’).

Sataar:
1. Yours or any other individual;s opinion is not a standard for balancing.
2. You are just making ‘please do not nerf me’ post since your primary dmg delivery method is AOE spike. Selfish as usual.
3. Do you think it is reasonable that you have instant spike that is comparable with thief’s spike and that given spike is AOE (plus all other stuff you get as mesmer in terms of invulnerability, cc and team utilities)? Do you think d/d ele’s AOE crap thrown around (in terms of both cc and dmg) is reasonable (considering amount of healing they get)? (neither is)
4. Unfortunately ANET ppl seem to still be fumbling in the dark, instead of having proper balancing system in place. They promise adjustments but they do not even have an idea what is balanced and what is not balanced. They may overnerf your stuff or not-nerf-it-enough, who knows.
5. What they should do is have 1v1, 2v2…5v5 ranked ques. They should tweak the dmg on classes so that 1v1 is balanced. Once 1v1 is balanced they should tweak AOE aspects of skills and combo fields (dmg, buffs, …) (diminishing returns on all AOE stuff) so that 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 are properly balanced as well. Balancing should be ground up (from 1v1 toward XvX). It is meaningless to talk about 5v5 balance when even 1v1 is extremely unbalanced.

@Arheundel.6451
About your question regarding ranking system:
Ranking system should be similar to what is used in chess, should be completely skill based and independent of # of games played once some minimum number of games is achieved (maybe 10-20 a week).
It should be based on winning/losing only (kills/captures etc are irrelevant).
If ANET has no clue how to do that, let them ask WoW how they did it, since they apparently had some clue.
QP certainly has nothing to do with proper ranking system.

About everything else you wrote: it is just bunch of nonsense, sorry have no time to respond to that stuff.

@SAtaarcoeny.8476:]

Have you noticed you are not responding to what I write? You just put out more nonsense and brag some more. Now you are trying to argue from authority using the meaningless QP as measure of authority. Dude, no one plays paids, no one cares about them, no one cares about QP. QP do not mean anything to pretty much anyone.

The game is not amazing. It lacks basic infrastructure and autofacing on skills makes it very low skill requirement game. It makes keyboard turn noobs look like they have a clue. It is better than gw1 which completely sucked skill wise (autostick made movement skill irrelevant).

Now about ‘clueless’: I beat ppl who beat you. That makes you much more clueless than me punk. Just because you go grind QP with other no lifers in paids does not mean you have a clue. It just means you have no life.

Denying mesmers and guardians are overrepresented in 5v5 teams? Ok…yeah, you make complete sense.

QP is nonsense, top QP means nothing. Anyone can sit day after day in a game and jump into good teams and farm QP. It is a grind metric in a game played by about 100 no lifers who organize their life around team schedules. 99.999% of ppl in this game have never been in paid, so they have 0 qp. Do no think you have more clue about game than them, there are much better players than yourself in that overwhelming majority, they played much less too.
I explained enough about QP and if you are too impaired to understand, it is your problem. You can be number 1 in QP tomorrow, no one will care (except maybe few other no-lifers as deluded as yourself) and it will not make you have any more clue than today.
This game is pretty dead (even hotjoin has less than 200-300 ppl in it when I usually log in). The game you play (5v5) (free/paids) has even less ppl in it, so it is pretty much dead. ESPORT……makes me laugh. How do you make a game noone cares about an ESPORT?

I know you will ‘defend the game’, you invested your life in it; it means a lot to you. That is sad. I just do not know who you are defending it from, I am not attacking the game. People are just asking for basic infrastructure and basic balancing.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

so what your saying is sense you are so many skill lvls below everyone else you have the right to ask for nerfs and because you are so stubburn you dont need to L2P you just want it made easier for your skill lvl.??? sorry man i dont agree with you.

LOL, you are a joke. How am I below other ppl when I beat them in duels?
No one would be asking for nerfs if ANET did their balancing and communication job properly. If they introduce proper ranked ques and show ppl that each class has approximately fair statistical representation in top ranks there will be no need to discuss balance. Ppl will KNOW it is balanced (or that ANET knows it is not balanced but they are working on balancing it). What frustrates people is lack of objective measure of balance and fumbling in the dark that ANET is doing while calling it balancing.
Everyone knows game is not balanced now in any setting, be it 1v1 or 5v5. In 5v5 you simply have severe over-representation of mesmers and guardians. And you have severe under-representation of some other classes (yes, the fact that you have few players of each class means pretty much nothing balance wise). That is called ‘lack of balance’ whether you understand it or not.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

also you said because i got killed but won the match that means the person that killed me is a perfect player and doesnt need to L2P??? sorry man i dont agree

I did not say he is a perfect player. I said you have no business telling him to L2P. Yes, everyone can always improve further but that is not what L2P means.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

and because i made it to the top of the QP leaderbords and im excited i cant go and say ty to the ppl that helped me get there because its embarrassing??? sorry man i dont agree.

LOL, QP is meaningless crap, a grind metric. You play ton of games you get ton of QP. Some team beats you in 80% encounters but plays much less, they get less QP. That is called ‘meaningless grind metric’. The fact that you think it means something tells us that you have no clue.
You do not even understand that 99.9999% of players do not (or very rarely do) even play 5v5 nonsense (especially not paid tpvp). In that majority there are better players than you and your tpvp buddies. Sorry to burst your bubble.
They just do not participate in your 5v5 nonsense because they find it inconvenient and mostly boring. They do what is fun (convenient) to them.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

were not all on the same skill lvl which im sure your aware of but that is no reason to nerf nerf nerf so until you find me this super op class then im sick and tired of hearing these nerf this and that post thats all im saying.

Nerfing and buffing is the same thing. To give you example:
Imagine you have 50% of mesmers in top rankings, and you have 7% of all other classes. Then all classes are actually balanced EXCEPT mesmer. Now, you could buff everyone else and leave mesmer as is, or you could nerf mesmer. It would be stupid to buff everyone else because you risk imbalancing 7 balanced classes (very likely) just to avoid nerfing one to bring it to balance. Also it is much more work to change 7 classes instead of 1. So, naturally, you will nerf mesmer untill mesmer has approximately the same representation as other 7 classes (i.e. they all have approximately about 12.5% representation in top rankings).

Until ANET puts in PROPER ranked ques (rankings that depend on skill, not grinding like QP does) for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 we will not have objective measure of where we are balance wise.

In the meantime everyone is free to express his opinion. If you are tired of it, do not read. Who are you to tell ppl to stop expressing their subjective opinions, since you are not offering anything objective either. What you or your buddies think is irrelevant subjective thing, you are pretty much nobody like everyone else. Only statistical representation in top rankings is objective and will convince players that balance is there (and we know it is not currently).

We need ranked ques and good statistical sample at the top (about 500 players) and enough games played (1000 would be nice) to know. Until then we can just express our subjective opinions.

Poplolita.2638:

@Mufa, why are you asking sat to stop posting in his own thread?

Because starting his own thread is not a license for flooding it with nonsense. This is a public forum, not sat’s home. At home he can do whatever he wants, in public space he needs to meet minimum levels of socially acceptable norms.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

……i belieave u great job on killing me. so would you say im some super mesmer that needs to be nerfed or would you say im just a player on a good team? ty for bringing this up i been waiting for some ppl to say the truth. mesmers are not super 1v1 team fight ppl that kill everyone then 1v1 everyone with no CD…..

1. It is not about nerfing YOU (such an egocentric guy, you are just off the charts), it is about nerfing the class. The fact that Goob easily beat you 1v1 does not carry any information about need for nerfing/buffing mesmers vs thief. For all we know Goob could be several skill levels above you as to compensate with his skill differential relative to you for any class balancing issues.

2. When someone beats you in a duels, you have no business telling him to L2P. So stop telling Goobs to L2P (and in general, stop telling ppl to L2P you are just not in position to do so (see point 3)).

3. I do not even need to duel you and your buddies to see where you are. You lose easily to Goobs, you recommend me to ask Cruuk for advice (both of them are good thieves), and you practice with Caed (who is a joke) (yes I fought all three of them). I can pretty much see where you are skill wise from those data points. I can just say that you are nowhere close to being one of the top players in the game. It is one thing to be a decent player and know you are decent and nothing more. It is another to be decent, but be delusional that you are top player. And then it is third to be mediocre, be delusional that you are a top player, and then go brag on forums about being a top player. That is just embarrassing.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

….but the one thing you did say that made sence was not everyone has same skill as hman. so when you and the rest of the ppl QQ ing about nerf 110b frenzy its silly cause just because 1 person is good you want to nerf the class??/ thats silly. how about you L2P so then nothing seems op to u

L2P me again? Dude I just challenged you and your guild (8 different ppl with 8 different classes) to a series of duels and you backed out. Then you told me to go ask advice from person I beat in duels. Seriously, are you ok?

I never qq-ed about 100b. I think 100b is a joke, and you are a joke for talking to me that way. Actually I got infraction on forum and post deleted by mod because I told someone to l2p when he complained about 100b.

I never qq because 1 person is good…what are you talking about? I was saying completely the opposite, that you cannot judge class based on 1 person performance. You simply do not understand what you read. It is really sad how much you post given that you fail to understand more than 50% of what people write back.

I have never lost duels to a warrior (or many other classes). Yes, a warrior can get me here and there but over 5+ games I have never seen one defeat me. I doubt hman can either. And I do not think warrior is OP, I think one needs quite a high skill level to play warrior well in current balance as is.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Mufa.1326:

@DXIEdge.2789 and rest of the ppl congratulating sataar and kissing his kitten:
If you do not understand just how badly sataar lost this discussion, at which point he pulled L2P trick (which lead to his further embarrassment):
you guys have an empty slot that needs upgrade. Allow me to recommend rune of intelligence….

this is uncalled for you have tried changing this discussion into something else the same way your trying to change this game into a 1v1 game. my L2P means ask ppl for help on tips and tricks if you read this forum you would see that. it is by no means belittling anyone its only saying if you dont know ask for help.

the old joke back in my day was men never wanted to ask for directions even if they couldnt read a map. i apply that to my every day life i ask for help if i need it. i dont QQ and say hey i cant find your place can you please move somewere else because that would be silly.

I was not off topic. I answered your points in the discussion and when you were at loss about what to say you went with L2P nonsense, which lead to your further embarrassment.

Those guys supporting you are off topic actually, but you started thanking them for praising you. What is up with you? Trying to start some personality cult among kids playing the game?

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

….im awake 22 hours a day….

Really dude….you just need to stop posting and embarrassing yourself….even in the best case, if the nonsense you post was true (and it certainly has no relationship with reality), it is called bragging and it is not socially acceptable.

Just stop and go grind your QP…….I am starting to feel very sorry and embarrassed for you. You know, it’s like when you watch very embarrassing moments in movies…..

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Pyrial.2917:

ITT: Everyone l2p except mesmers

Seriously though, how do you beat a shatter mesmer as a warrior?

ask hman because he beats me 7 out of 10 times as a warrior.
(im going to tell you to L2P and that isnt mean. it means find a warrior who can do it aka HMAN and ask him to teach you)
you just need to L2P

This is again nonsense. +Learn-to-Think again for you.

Not everyone has skill level that hman has. One player does not prove anything since hman can be 5 skill levels above you and 2 skill levels above everyone else in the game. If mesmer and warrior were balanced 1v1 hman would maybe be defeating you 1000:1. (or maybe if balance goes other way (I doubt) you would be beating him.
Even if there was ranked 1v1 que and hman was ranked 1st it gives very little info on where warriors as a class are balance-wise (what if the next ranked warrior is in 153rd place?).

What is needed is statistical data on 1v1 (ranked que by (account,class) ). Only when warriors as a class and mesmers as a class have similar representation in top100 and top500, people will stop complaining and QQ will stop. Understand that. You cannot tell them “look at hman”, it means nothing.

And the same thing with you mentioning ‘using warrior in your team’ or ‘using engineer in your team’. It means nothing, with sufficient skill a player can compensate for severe imbalances (underpowered) of the class. But that is a single player, it gives almost no information about how balanced the class is.

@DXIEdge.2789 and rest of the ppl congratulating sataar and kissing his kitten:
If you do not understand just how badly sataar lost this discussion, at which point he pulled L2P trick (which lead to his further embarrassment):
you guys have an empty slot that needs upgrade. Allow me to recommend rune of intelligence….

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

i didnt want to respond to this because you said you want to duel my thief first? i guess you need to L2R (learn to read) we dont have a thief

I guess you need to L2R because I said to make your team out of 8 different people from your guild who main 8 different classes. Do not tell me you do not have one single ‘top’ thief in your guild? If so, I am sure you have lots of mesmers, so how is that for your mesmer is balanced argument?
And if you do not have thief in the guild, pick him up from somewhere else.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

2nd if you are challenging someone to a 1v1 in a team based game then you are proving my point. you need to L2P and again i dont mean it in a bad way as i wrote before i mean it as in a way you need to L2P this game (guild wars 2) its a team game if you have been going into tournaments with your you can beat everyone 1v1 build then i just figured out your problem.
if you whisper me in game i can let you know that is wrong and you need to change that really fast if you want to be on a team.

Really…your point is that everyone except 100 or so no-lifers who play tpvp and sit there few hours every night and weekends practicing with heir team needs to L2P? Get a clue, forcing ppl into 5-man teams is super inconvenient. Noone wants to spend few hours each night and weekends practicing team tactics. No wonder ‘your’ game is dead. ANET filtered out 99.9999% of potential players by making it too inconvenient for them to play that mode.
I do not have a problem. I play solo and I need ANET to put infrastructure to support 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5. I will try whatever is convenient for me, but I will not organize life around game schedule as current 5v5 requires.
I do not need to change anything, I do not want to get on the team. I do not care about the nonsense that ANET calls ‘official’. If they do not configure pvp to cater to the needs of ppl who do not want to organize their life around game schedule you will have dead game as is now.
If I wanted to play 5v5 I would make my own team, make my own tactics etc…same as I made my own build. I do not need other ppl to think for me.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

3rd there is a guy named cruuk he does 1v1 all day he is really good. i think he beat every one so far so if you are interested in 1v1ing im sure u can talk to him. but for me i will be in paids tonight playing the game how it should be played so you can consider this as me backing away from your challenge very quicky (maybe if a 1v1 tournament ever comes into play i will whisper you to help me L2P 1v1 cause idk how yet)

O really…so cruuk is ‘really good’ and I need to L2P? LOL.
While I highly respect ‘cruuk’ and think he is one of the best thieves around as well as not running the ‘stupid build’, unfortunately for you I actually beat cruuk 1v1.
So if you do not go around telling Cruuk to L2P, you have even less reason to tell me to L2P.
Now, since you do not want to ‘put up’, the alternative is to ….you know what.
Good luck grinding QP tonight. Since you like grinding so much, may I recommend fractals…ppl tell me they are very challenging…. Cheers….

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

if you just L2P im sure u will be fine in this game. like i said if you need help about your role in the game i can help you. just whipser me in game and you will get good at it and have more fun then you wont be complaining so much

If you just Learn-2-Think I am sure you will stop pulling L2P nonsense when you lose the discussion and are at loss about what to say. Who are you to L2P me, I do not play that nonsense ANET declared ‘official’ as the rest of 99.99999% of population does not play it since it is boring and has ‘high inconvenience barrier’ (who wants to organize life around the stupid game in order to practice to play together with 4 other no-lifers).

Now, since you pulled L2P on me, let me make you ‘put up or shut up’ so to speak:
Go to your little guild, get 1 of each class. I will duel each one of you 5 duels (so there is no whining about ‘accidental loss’), and I will duel your thief first. So 40 duels total. If you guys can beat me more than 20 games, I will admit I need to L2P.

See ya in the game, whisper me when you guys are ready.

@Advent…. it does not matter whether you are receiving nerfs or buffs. If you were severely OP in the beginning of course you should receive nerfs. If you were severely underpowered in the beginning of course you should receive buffs. It means nothing.

Concentrate on being the best of your class so that you are at the top once proper infrastructure (rankings and balancing) are there. If things are done properly and each class is balanced so that it has fair representation in top rankings, you will be among top players by the fact that you are the top player of your class.

Fouth…we need to ask for BALANCE. Nerfing is just intergra part of balancing process. Noone should get mad about it once objective measure of balance is introduced.
If you have mesmers and guardians representing 40%-50% of class pool at the top rankings (in any setting) they just need to be toned down.

And SAtaarcoeny.8476 you are tired of ppl calling for nerfs?
Imagine how tired people are watching clueless guys who actually pose the challenge to defeat through the sheer fact that their class is severely OP and not because they play well. So clueless guy thinks he is good player since he does not understand how severely OP his class is.
Imagine how tired rangers who want to play 5v5 are of not having the place in a team because…well..they are not mesmer or guardian or whatever other OP class is out there.
Who do you think is more tired…you or them?

Oh, it is the ‘I-am-the-champ-of-the-game-noone-plays-measured-by-grind-metric’ guy.

I assume you are a mesmer. By the fact that mesmers are consider pretty much a must-have in current teams you know that in top rankings (for 5v5 conquest) you would have more than 20% mesmers. That is almost double the ideal balance point (12.5%). That is considered severely OP (you essentially destroy presence of one whole class).

They need to give us ranked ques (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5) and start balancing from there.
You define balance as having the same representation for all classes in top rankings (top100&top500) (about 12.5 for each class).

You balance first dmg with 1v1.
Once that is done (dmg balanced) you start balancing 2v2-3v3 with combo fields and diminishing returns on group effects of skills (buffs/aoe dmg etc).
Further you balance 3v3 and 5v5 with further diminishing returns and nerfing skills/utilities/elites that benefit large groups the most (TW, portal,… you know, stuff that makes you guys severely OP in group settings )

PearlGore.7419:

And this is a problem why?

It is a problem because if you have at least one mesmer in every team, then mesmers will be more than 20% of players in top rankings for 5v5 capture-the-point setting which is severely OP, since every class should have representation between 10.5% to 14.5% (given that 12.5% = 1/8 is ideal balance point).
So whatever is causing teams to consider mesmer a-must-have-member needs to be nerfed to the ground so that noone considers mesmers (nor any other class) a must-have-member of top team.

And if you cannot grasp this simple concept, you should not be participating in balance discussions.

Breakin.2409:

You know at first a new player would think that Ele is much harder to play due to the fact that he has twice as many weapon skills as other classes and constantly has to switch attunements.
It’s sadly not the case. It takes a few hours to get used to playing Ele, and when you do, you realize it’s actually the easiest class to play, it just takes more button mashing than other classes. Especially the bunker ones. It literally does NOT matter what your opponent does, just roll through your skills in all attunemets and make sure to save a dodge for when you switch to water so you can heal up with Evasive Arcana.

Yes, Ether Renewal is ONE of the reasons Ele is so strong right now, but it’s far from being the main problem.

Bingo….. rotate your skills and watch the grass grow. You do not need to react to your oponent since you outheal his dmg.
All the reaction you need is stun break.
This is sadly what Anet considers ‘skill’.
The fact is, ppl who are terrible on thief for example can do very well on elementalist. Because they do not need to play against anyone on ele, they can just rotate their skills and once they get that down it is up to their enemy to actually dodge elementalist stuff and put out enough dps to kill them.

As I said, they really need to put in ranked 1v1 que so this nonsense stops, people are just unrealistic about where their class is and conversation is impossible, even when faced with numbers they just ignore the numbers and continue standard qq.

Ranked 1v1 que and let us see how the top ranking presence is for different classes.

BlueprintLFE.2358:

Mufa.1326:

Yes, what i mean is that ppl follow up earth with fire. They start with air, earth fire water. And yes burning speed does follow earthquake. And yes, they first gain a bit of distance so that their blast hits me if I do not break stun on earthquake.
And yes they are ‘fotm’ eles X/30/30. It does not matter if other builds die fast, if that one is OP.
As for me not having trouble beating any class: it does not mean my class is op. I have the least trouble beating my own class.

Dude your QQ level is out of control, it’s always about eles. You play a thief, and you want to talk about not having enough dodges? How about spammable 7k heart seekers? Have fun dodging all those, not too mention with 5-10 thieves in a game (lol) players don’t have enough stun breaks or dodges in the world to dodge all that. I know I play a thief in tourneys occasionally as well, and I know how heart seeker hits.

You QQ because you can’t global a build that is built to survive. These ungodly eles that are killing you in an earthquake burning speed combo, (lol I’m covered up to my ears in all this bs, earthquake is melee range, nobody is doing earthquake burning speed, you even say “they back up to gain space for burning speed” do you know how dumb that sounds?? If eles are doing earthquake—>back pedaling —-> burning speed and that is owning you then you have way bigger problems) these godly eles are not running 0 10 0 30 30, because that spec is built around outlasting and hits like a wet noodle. So the eles that are wrecking you with burning speed are specced GC, and therefore are even MORE squishier than your thief.

You don’t know what you are talking about when you QQ about the ele class, and it’s obvious. You found a spec that is made to counter burst and is strong against thieves (time to adapt and you might actually have to do what all the thieves tell everyone else, gasp change your build!)

Get a clue and read before you post you nonsense.
1. Noone is killing me with earthquake & burning speed. These were mentioned as being sufficient to eat up all of the normal dodges.
2. They are NOT specced as glass cannons. This does not mean you do not need to dodge burning speed (and earthquake). You do not need to be 100%-0% with something to need to dodge it.
3. I do not global anyone since I do not run burst build, and they are NOT glass cannons.
4. I do not spam HS either, and they do not hit for 7K, stop talking nonsense.
5. I do not know what I am talking about? These nonsense talkers…..find me in the game and bring your OP ‘7K HS thief’, l waste you 1v1. I know very well what I am talking about.
6. You did not even read my post, and if you did you obviously failed completely to understand it (problem is not dodging anything in particular but sheer volume of things that need to be dodged). So why are you posting bunch of nonsense?

Yes, what i mean is that ppl follow up earth with fire. They start with air, earth fire water. And yes burning speed does follow earthquake. And yes, they first gain a bit of distance so that their blast hits me if I do not break stun on earthquake.
And yes they are ‘fotm’ eles X/30/30. It does not matter if other builds die fast, if that one is OP.
As for me not having trouble beating any class: it does not mean my class is op. I have the least trouble beating my own class.

Leuca.5732: Bad anything is easy.
DaliIndica.9041: Well, not all classes sport amazing boon strapping abilities.
Arheundel.6451: You are simply talking nonsense which I addressed elsewhere. Dodging anything in particular is not a problem. The problem with d/d ele is having enough dodges to dodge everything that needs dodging. I calculated on other topic that dodging only some of the more problematic stuff d/d ele throws out (usually as aoe) (talking here knowckdowns, high dmg aoe, chills, snares), one needs about 1 dodge every 3 sec. Problem is that we get about 1 dodge every 10 seconds.

Now, since you strike me as a guy who has issues understanding simple things, let me give you a super simple example in the hope it hits the spot: Just take ‘burning speed’ + ‘earthquake’. Usually earth is followed by fire, if you get hit by earthquake, you will eat burning speed unless you use the stunbreaker. So you have to dodge earthquake, as well as burning speeds. In order to dodge earthquake and burning speeds, you need to (stay with me) dodge about once every 11.25 sec. Soo..just two of your skills eat up pretty much all of my dodges. What about dodging other stuff…like your aoe chill, or your churning earth, or…i dunno dragon breath + fire grab etc….you are simpy out of dodges. Do you get the picture? Good, now imagine what effect 2 elementalists on a point have since most of their stuff is aoe. Now suddenly everyone needs dodge every 1.5sec or so, and even if they had them, they would be doing nothing but dodging what 2 eles are throwing around while watching the grass grow.

And in general: I play ppl who main other classes and also have d/d ele. I can tell you this: It is much much easier to kill them on their mains who they spent more than 3x time on then on their d/d eles. They tell me class is severely OP, just takes time to learn the rotation. That is pretty much enough of data for me to conclude what I conclude. But, as I said, we need proper 1v1 ranked que in order to get objective data.

@Arheundel.6451
I am not losing to them, just takes a lot of effort to defeat mindless button mashing (rotating same kitten while watching the grass grow) that can be done by simple bot/macro.

In other words 90% d/d ele takes much much more effort to defeat than for example 90% thief, or 90% warrior, or 90% ranger or 90% engi…

I simply do not think that mindless rotation of same skills without much reaction to what opponent is doing (such is dodging big hits of the enemy, or deciding WHEN to apply which skill based on what enemy is doing) should lead to such good results. It indicates, in my opinion, that class is simply out of balance. I should have about the same effort expenditure and feel the same amount of ‘threat’ when defeating average (or 90-th%) player of any class.

Here is a suggestion:
1v1 dm ranked que.
Nerf bat on any class that has too high representation in top100 and top500.
Buff bat on any class that has too low representation in top100 and top500.

Once 1v1 is balanced, balance 2v2 (and 3v3) by tweaking combo fields (finisher %, strength of fields etc) and aoe aspects of skills and utilities (buffs/dmg) by diminishing returns on aoe effects.

Once 2v2 is balanced, balance 5v5 (and 3v3) by further tweaking aoe aspects of skills and utilites (further diminishing returns on hitting 4th and 5th guy).

There is no need for individual opinions and nonsense on forums. Objective measurement of balance and proper actions to bring about the balance are needed.
I also think d/d eles and mesmers need severe nerfs, but that is just my opinion. Reality may show that I am completely wrong, and only biased by my own point of view.

ummm…nope…way too inconvenient to coordinate with other players to get good 5-player team running. By not providing ranked ques for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 you do not even know who to contact when you want to get 2 more or 3 more (or 1 more) for 5v5 game.

Enjoy playing the ‘official version’ of the game with other 100- ppl that play it…. Low population is the price of high inconvenience barrier.

Sezneg.8630:

It’s a very powerful class, I’m fine with the changes:
1. SS was over the top. Go back far enough on the mesmer forum to when this was buffed up and you’ll find plenty of posts from mesmers predicting a quick nerf in the next patch. Im actually surprised they let it stay as long as they did… but Christmas/New Years tend to cause a lot of productivity loss.
2. The global cooldown is an acceptable bandaid fix for what was a pretty rough exploit. I’m actually hoping they change the shatter mechanic and do away with the illusions running up to their target, which was how this bug snuck in to begin with. Just have the illusions poof as soon as we hit the shatter and cause an AOE effect centered on our current target. The only thing this messes up is people who put illusions on multiple targets for dazes… and that’s not a lot of mesmers.

[/quote]

It is my strong belief we need 1v1 ranked que to see which classes need nerfs/buffs and how much (classes should keep receiving nerfs/buffs until they are statistically represented at the top (100 and 500)) in proportion to 1/“# of classes”.

Now, that you are ‘very powerful class’ is severe understatement, but we need 1v1 ranked que to prove that, otherwise is just an opinion of this or that person.

As for #1: You are fine with ‘changes’…what changes? They just put 0.25s delay to allow ppl to stunbreak before they are blown up and they reversed totally unwarranted buff.

As for #2: Oh…so you want to blow us up from the distance now….so you want a super buff for already unbelievably OP class??? And you are masking that as a “modest proposal from ‘reasonable’ mesmer”. Makes me laugh. So let me see how the fight would go now:
I attack you, you get 3 illusions out and shatter-daze me for 4sec (even if I am far away from you and your illusions I get to eat it with your proposed buff) putting 25 stacks of vuln on me. Then if I stunbreak out of 4sec daze quickly before you blow me up, I dodge roll, but you know I am gonna do that….so you ‘wisely’ wait until I blow up my stunbreak and dodge, because distance does not matter anymore. Once I blow my stun break and dodge you just insta spawn 3 clones and blow me up to kingdon come ‘from the distance’.
Then you tell me what mad skillz you have..mmm….anet really hit the spot with mesmer players, that part of player pool is full of geniuses with maaaad skillz.

I dunno why you ask for such an insane buff. You already have the tools to do something similar: You spawn few illusions and shatter them for daze and 25sec of invul. Then if i stunbreak from daze and dodge away, you spawn leap clone, swap places with him to snare me and place yourself next to me (you can stun me there as well), and THEN you do ‘mirror images’+ dodge_into_me (so as to be in shatter range from me for personal shatter effect to hit and spawn one more illusion) + mind_wr to blow me up.

Funny how people do not have enough self-reflection to differentiate between ‘i am a good player’ and ‘my class is some crazy op kitten’.

Sezneg.8630:

There’s so much wrong in this post…

Your “in the first 50 seconds” list accurately states what we can possibly do… but when you account for actual action time during that 50 seconds we can NOT in any way shape or form do ALL of the things you list:

1. Using sword invulnerability precludes all other actions for 2 seconds, so 8 seconds out of that 50 is otherwise occupied and no actions will take place.

Actually you are lying. You can snare person and then go into blurred frenzy thus delivering both snare and invul at the same time. (actually u can stun them as well during the time)

You can also stagger them:
seconds 0-10:
2sec snare + invul, 2sec stun, 4sec autoattack (spawn phant), 2 sec invul,
seconds 10-20:
2sec snare + teleport away, random cond field if enemy closses in, spawn more clones/phantasms and kite, teleport away,
seconds 20-30:
2sec snare + 2sec invul, 4 sec autoattack (spawn phantasm, dodge, invul shatter, whatever…), 2sec stun again, 2sec invul
seconds 30-40:
2sec snare, teleport away, kite (random cond shield if needed) spawn more illusions, teleport away
seconds 40-54
2sec invul, 2sec snare, 3sec autoattack (spawn phantasm), 2sec invul, 2sec auto (dodge, phantsm..whatever), 2sec snare+stun…..etc

Now, in those spaces where it says autoattack (spawn phantasm) you can also do some invul off of shatter (for more invul…you have 8 seconds of invul on top of what i listed), dodge (for more clones and more invul), you can deliver your dmg spikes at any time you like…etc..
Also many of those things (stun/invul/snare) CAN be delivered TOGETHER.

Sezneg.8630:

2. Using pistol stun twice in the sequence requires you to start with sword/pistol out and then either keep it out (which precludes using the AOE random condition field and the short cooldown teleport), OR swapped which precludes us from using the sword invulnerability on cooldown.
So while it’s a good list of some of the things a mesmer can do, you’re flat out wrong about us being able to do everything you list in a 50 second window.

I gave you basic rotation so you are lying that it is impossible. Yes, you start with s/p. You use pistol stun at seconds 2, 27 and 52. Yes you get to use staff twice in 50 sec (sec 10-20 and sec 30-40. And yes you can deliver all I said (and more).