Guild Wars 2

Yes, they have uses. I have gotten to use Lich form with 0 pressure and just decimated. But generally you become a big target (literally) and can actually be brought down pretty quickly. Ever been Moa’d in Lich? That is a personal favorite of mine.

Plague form is my favorite and the one I think is in need of little to no change. It can have quite an effect on a team fight. That said, it is a skill that puts you right in the middle of the action… in many cases you are nearer to the thieves, warriors, etc. than are your own thieves, warriors, etc. In any case, it is a fun as hell skill and the one I use almost exclusively.

Flesh golem, on the other hand? It is crap. Sure, it has a place. It has a nice skill that comes along with it. It also has that really interesting passive of ‘standing right next to you doing nothing while you get beat on’. Have you tried using that awesome skill when there is a hill the size of a pebble in the way? He slams right into it and starts up the cooldown.

Remember, I said underwhelming elites… not useless elites.

As for DS… yes, you can trait to get more time (.5 seconds actually). Yes you can trait to get some damage ( < 400 if my tests were accurate). In both cases it DS skill #3 marginally useful. I think the reason I dislike it so much is that the extra second I buy using the skill doesn’t really allow me to do much in the way of adding on damage (given the cast time on skill #1), so it is instead part of the problem others have already mentioned. Namely, Deathshroud feels like the place Necros go right before they die. That fear feels like my last ditch effort to do… something.

Yes, some cheese builds are as you mentioned. I’ve messed around with PW Thieves, and no doubt 100b Warriors are the same. There are legitimate burst builds that are viable long term, Backstab Thieves come to mind as do Rangers.

I also don’t think I am worthless. I think I am underwhelming. I often rely on my opponent just being dumber than me (which works surprisingly well), not knowing my class, or not targeting me. If left in the back, I can get my stacks up. I can spread them around. I feel pretty good about it. That is the most ideal of ideal situations, and I still feel a little underwhelming.

And I agree about guardians. They are the class we counter hard (assuming of course that this is a conditionmancer build… and who are we kidding. {I roll axes quite a bit, but I like to brood so it works}). They don’t get their nice heals off due to scepter poison. Our bleeds ruin them since they are a toughness class not a vitality class, and what you mentioned.

Also, in tPvP the situation might be better. The 5v5 format of it changes a lot of things. I can’t speak with any authority on it, so I won’t. Necro could be the most broken class there for all I know. I speak about sPvP (I think we do fairly well in WvWvW too) as a casually competitive player, only.

Remember:
Necro != Useless
Necro = Underwhelming

Thank you for posting. Having no news has been disheartening.

I agree that classes have varying skill caps. I agree that necro is one of the hardest.

I also agree that a huge portion of Necro problems in PvP is being forced into a condition build which is easily counterable.

That said, I think you are seriously overestimating Deathshroud. Yes, it can, situationally, be good. I have a few pride moments where i escape from absurdly large groups due to good use of DS. Generally, it is a problem mechanic. The skills are out-of-line with necro gameplay. More importantly, the skills don’t mesh with every build (1 is worthless for conditionmancer, generally. 4 is worthless for a power build, generally. 2 is very situationally good. 3 is a waste of time to even cast short of saving a downed teammate).

DS also disappears rather quickly (I rolled thief and I often don’t even notice when a necro uses it). And worse yet, contrary to what you posted, it is not reliably renewed for any class other than staff (I haven’t even addressed how staff is a must have in literally every single build) aside from 1 skill.

More complaints, it feels as if we are okay at most things and not really great at any.
Sure we can take damage, but not as well as Warriors/Guardians.
Sure we can stack conditions, but not as well as Rangers/Thieves.
Sure we can do some burst, but not as well as (insert class here).
You get the idea.

PS Our Elites are underwhelming.

But ‘paper thin’ thieves have more survivability than other ‘paper thin’ specs what with stealth, spammable gap closers/distancers, etc.

Thieves (in zerg v zerg) get to spec high damage/paper thin and get away with it. This is part of the problem. Their damage trade off is low.

Try the scholar classes and put 0 points in toughness or health. Your jaw will drop at how fast you get blown up.

I freely admit that some of my dislike for thieves was part “grass is always greener” complex.

That said, after playing thief coming from primarily a necro, I am convinced that other classes need some serious buffs or a few classes (including thieves) need some slight nerfs.

bwillb.2165:

Mujen.5287:

My only issue with the thief is pistol whip. Not only does the thief snare you it also stuns, and does massive damage. It’s basically a better form of 100 blades which is already stupid overpowered.

it stuns you for half a second. it immobilizes the thief for the full duration. Are you REALLY complaining about this?

Devourer venom keeps you there for two seconds. The half second stun on pistol whip is just a nice bonus to make sure you stop them from casting any escape spells.

Errant Venture.9371:

QSpec.4298:

No, this is a mistaken mindset that has been there since WoW was pejoratively called World of Roguecraft.

There is a belief that a thief/rogue should explode any class in 1v1.

Play a thief, they’re PAPER THIN. Honestly, if you’re not playing a burster who sits on the sides of the fight until he can jump in->nuke someone->and get out you’re playing the class wrong. Thiefs can’t participate in regular pitched battles unless they play like this because splash damage alone wrecks them.

I do play a thief, and using a fraction of my skills (I just rolled one so I am still learning), I am doing fairly well.

They are paper thin. If I get initiated on (can’t dodge a warrior charge or can’t stealth in to a ranger), I do get wrecked. That said, the entire class is designed around being able to get out (with huge movespeed, stealths, gap closers that can be used to jump farther out of range).

More over, the thief contributes by being able to back cap better than any single class in the game.

Finally, don’t act like thieves are the only paper thin class. Try a necro spec’d for any damage. Try an ele. Try a mesmer (who has to rely on ridiculously easy to spot fakes). They are all easy to melt (especially for a thief!).

The only two classes I find that I am better off not engaging 1v1 are guardian’s and engies… and if I do try to 1v1 them, I just disengage (since the thief has that as an option).

So it has nothing to do with how much damage you take? That seems absurd as it is overcome by the classes (I assume) whom you would want to build retaliation against.

It seems like it would be the smart counter to a haste thief, for example. What is the purpose of it then? I could have 100% uptime on retaliation vs a thief and I would still drop in seconds with minor damage done to the thief.

I don’t have time to test this tonight.

But in the few games I played, I would switch in to Death Shroud and didn’t notice Rangers/Thieves (classes who do a significant amount of damage) taking any retaliation damage.

No, this is a mistaken mindset that has been there since WoW was pejoratively called World of Roguecraft.

There is a belief that a thief/rogue should explode any class in 1v1.

So you are saying since something that was OP was nerfed that the more OP build will come to light. Isn’t that a good thing? Thieves are in line for a series of nerfs. In sPvP they are now making up over 50% of the average game.

bwillb.2165:

Ouzhyr.2175:

Do we really have to make 8 threads about this?

Well we had 5 million trying to get it nerfed and that got it nerfed, so we’re only just getting started.

And rightfully so.

You should be happy though. Now good thieves will be distanced from bad thieves which they weren’t really before.

If you were good before you will be good now. If you punched one button for your kills, the realities of GW2 pvp might catch up with you.

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

Well, ANet just pretty much said “L2P” in an official post while they give a second look.

Are you talking about the post in which they basically said ‘it is too early to tell’ and ‘try new builds’?

That doesn’t equal l2p at all.

KansasFF.9410:

I think if you limit the amount of crazy damage the low initiative attack Heartseeker does, then the thief is much more balanced. Pistol whip is much more expensive and requires the player to stand (float) in one place for the duration of the attack.

I play thief, and won’t play dagger dagger, because I don’t think it will make me a better player in the long run. That said, I agree with the poster above who said thief isn’t that imbalanced in tournaments…. most people can see and dodge a heartseeker thief.

The problem with sPvP is that since thieves are in a good place they have become FotM. In short, there are a lot of them running around in an average sPvP match. This makes having to deal with HS spam incredibly annoying.

Last night I had 3 thieves HS spam my poor, poor necro. It looked hilarious, but I didn’t get to enjoy it for too long. I was downed in seconds.

Good to know. Bronze it is…

Anyone?

15char

Greed.1702:

Ultimately each class has its pros and cons. The player behind the class is what counts. Maybe, just maybe, that one thief or that one mesmer is just better than you

While to some extent this is true, and I agree with you… this is not necessarily the argument.

The problem is it is a mindless build that virtually anyone can pick up and learn. It can be a successful build for someone that barely knows the rest of their skills. 1v1 (as a necro), I beat thieves all the time. In fairness, this is mostly do to the sheer number of thieves in each game most of whom are bound to be morons.

The real argument (and I make it for 100b too) is should one class be so mindlessly easy and still good and strong. When I win a 1v1 fight against a thief, I feel as if I played at the top of my game while the thief dropped the ball somewhere.

The player does remain the most important part, but don’t equivocate. We already know that.

Sorry if this has been asked before.

What is the difference between the 200 Bronze, 500 Silver, and 1000 Gold PvP Chests. I have tried all 3 and I really don’t notice much of a difference in either quantity or quality of loot.

I have read that Gold has a larger loot table from which to draw, if this is the case does anyone know what is on that loot table that is absent from the bronze and silver?

I love it. I like the tension I get when I am downed, and an enemy is downed. Who is going to rally?

Greed.1702:

With 30k health, no pure hs thief should be able to take you down regardless of whether you dodge or not. A pure damage / critical thief build leaves the thief with roughly 14k health. That’s half of your total health point count, and definitely damage wise, the first few heart seekers will do nothing more than 2k maximum, even in crits. This is from my personal experience.

This is true, but the loss is like an exponential graph. I often don’t feel like I am losing, and then out of no where my health drops crazy fast. With the stealth, fights last a long time and I am usually whittled down. While time might seem to be on a conditionmancer’s side, in this case it isn’t. Stealth stops me from stacking too much bleed, and in the event that I do, Thief heal removes it. Plus, do not underestimate what a 3 second fear can do to your health pool.

Ragnaruss.1697:

^

More or less: Realize its a build that gives you trouble. Learn that build. Find counters. Use counter.

Not really…

As a Necro it feels as if the class is designed to perfectly counter me. They tear through my 30k health crazy fast.

Their heal stealths them and removes bleed (a staple of quite a few Necros).

They get increased damage out of said stealth and their auto attack applies a nice poison which minimizes my healing.

If I slow/fear/stun them and get distance, they tele to me with steal (which often gives them a full 3 second fear with which to kill me).

Then they HS to their little heart’s content killing any other distance I may have got on them. This damage always, always tops the kill chart in any pvp at usually 15000+.

Have I won against them? Sure. But, it takes almost flawless dodges and use of my blind well, and often my Plague elite skill.

nukularpower.2106:

Yes, I’ve certainly never seen a warrior use a rifle

You’re right, and Rifle Primary Warriors are fun to fight regardless of the outcome. That said, the vast majority of Warriors are Greatsword. Quite a few Rifle Warriors end up switching to it as well.

I am not really trying to nerf the class. In fact, this is a problem that many classes seem to have (HS Thieves, 100B Warriors, Conditionmancers). I would just like to see a tad more variety. Right now there is typically a clear pub-stomp choice (even if said choice is counterable in organized PvP).

I think the dodge solution is fallacious.

You get roughly 2 dodges for an entire team. The enemy doesn’t even have to perfectly stack stuns et al to take those 2 dodges away. In a duel, this is 100% correct. In a team game, it is a stupid solution.

In truth, I would love to see the skill changed. It is annoying to deal with. Low risk, high reward. And pidgeon holes warrior into a great sword build. Side note, I would also like to see thief’s HS changed for the same reason.

The goal should be neither a net buff nor a net nerf, but merely a change. It would be nice and fun to see a Warrior who didn’t use great sword, would it?