Guild Wars 2

I think what is frustrating for us is that we have one decent build. And it is merely decent.

I do get bored with the class (despite also loving it). I have taken to running Power builds and axe builds just for the hell of it. I hope that when/if we get buffs, this determination will pay off.

In the meantime, I have rolled a thief that I generally main now. I bring this up only a comparison.

Choosing traits for it is a delight. I feel like there are few bad choices and a lot of great choices.

I don’t feel that way on the Necro. Instead, I feel as if I need to optimize what I have using traits that I feel to be a tad meh. I think trait for trait we have some of the least compelling choice. Moreover, they seem to be randomly placed in the various lines at times.

At this point though, I am okay with horizontal buffs that give me better choices to play than just one condition build and one item set.

Hell… at this point, I would just be stoked to be able to have ‘Corrupt Boon’ on my ability bar.

This has probably been mentioned, but I think the bigger problem would be power creep.

Sure now, 10% might not be a huge deal initially. Eventually though most everyone would have it. Then there would be another forum post asking for say another 10%.

Enough of these you eventually end up with older toons doing 1.5 or even 2 times the amount of damage of a new toon.

I think this seems more of an issue than it is. We have been taught (by WoW et al) that end game is about doing the same thing over and over until you ahve gear only to do it again for more gear.

Once GW2 becomes more established with more to do in the end game, I hope this will be less of an issue and more of a relic.

@ UncannierYames

And that of course depends on if it is additive or multiplicative.

Have you been doing this between servers?

The reason I ask, is if the data is taken only from a few servers than the data is likely wrong.

For instance, if you took 10 of those games from the same server (going back to back), the classes make up is likely to stay very similar from game to game. Moreover, it could account for various rankings. One good player in multiple games would skew the average points for that class.

I should start by saying that I almost exclusively play a thief in pvp (I gave up on my Necro for the time being).

My build is a backstab build. I am not glass cannon. I have 30 points in Vitality (for stealth traits). I use double dagger and bow (for when I can’t safely get close… also fairly effective against mesmers). With daggers, I use 3 skills… only. 1 for damage, 2 to finish (if necessary), and 5 to get into stealth. All of my utility skills put me in stealth (except for speed signet to help backcap).

To the point, I have a hypothesis that the state of thief is the single most problematic function to balance in the game. It has completely skewed the ability to balance.

My thoughts: I believe thieves are the reasons Guardians seem so good in PvP. They are almost the only class (aside from mesmers) that really gives me hell in a fight. I think they are fairly counterable by various condition builds, but due to the ubiquity of thieves, guardians seem artificially strong (If they are OP, my guess is they are only barely OP).

I think thieves make Necros (my first main) and eles specifically, but the other classes as well, seem weaker than they are. Necros and eles are ridiculously easy to kill. At best, they are forced to disengage and it is my choice as to whether I follow or not. In this sense, I think they likely need some tuning, but I believe the strength of the thief vs these classes complete with the absurd numbers of thieves in any given match, necros and eles feel terribly weak.

I have no real opinion on mesmers as they relate to the thief. I find them super difficult to kill, and I have found I am best just disengaging and going elsewhere.

So we have over 100 bugs.
And… 10 fixes.

I’m not talking about buffs or nerfs here… just bug fixes since release.

So I made a post about how the moderators are aggressively moderating… said was post then aggressively moderated and locked for being off-topic in this sub-forum.

It is here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Aggressive-Mods/first#post240151

My question: What sub-forum should I have posted it in?

Neither of the ‘News and Announcements’ would work.

None of the support seemed to fit… perhaps under forum bugs? I did not think the moderators would appreciate being referred to as ‘bugs’ :P

I did notice that none, including this sub-forum, were a good fit for the topic. I ended up choosing this forum because it seemed slightly generic (more of a ‘general’ forum).

Certainly not under ‘crafting’, ‘professions,’ or ‘races’.

Nothing under ‘Community Corner’ (although it seemed like it should be here) or under ‘guilds.’

So again I ask you, where should I have posted it?

I will certainly request a “general” sub-forum, but in the meantime… where?

@Hikeroar

That’s kind of the conclusion I came to as well.

I also sent an email. Has anyone received a response?

45ish Necromancer 6 or 7/10 .

It is a tad grindy for my taste, and my class has some pretty big bugs that have yet to be addressed.

These are the forum rules:

Keep it clean
Keep it civil
Stay on topic
Be responsible
Share your knowledge
Report posts for removal if they violate these standards

I admit that the first might have violated the rule on civility.

I am making the claim that my second post did not violate any of the above (given the organic nature of conversation… more on this in a moment). Yet it was taken down anyway.

For example, I think it would be wrong to remove the second poster’s comments despite his clearly going off topic. Same with you in fact. I merely asked a question which neither of you answered. That said, given the organic nature of conversation, it is important to allow a small amount of deviation from the OP.

So is that a yes? Or a no?

I don’t recall actively asking for a normative claim on the whole thing.

I merely asked if anyone else has experienced posts being removed that they don’t feel should be removed.

No lie, your post was about as much deviated from my OP as the one I had deleted was.

This could just be me, but do the Mods seem a tad aggressive?

I have had two posts removed.

One was perhaps warranted (I called someone a troll… well, I said to post a video or I will assume they were trolling).

The other was for making a post on a balance thread adding to the OP. This was removed because it supposedly was off-topic.

I am not upset that moderators are doing their job (I prefer a moderated forum to an unmoderated one). I just worry they may be doing their job a little too thoroughly.

In any case, am I the only one? This could entirely be the case, I freely admit that as well.

1. Thanks for the video. We need more of these for sure.
2. Good to see another Charr Necro.
3. I think you should give yourself more credit. Your positioning is great and you were generally much better than the people you were playing against (my personal favorite is the warrior who ran back and forth for what felt like 30 seconds).
4. I feel like if you were on one of the stronger classes you would dominate.
5. I think Necro is viable (yes, even power). I just think it is weaker to the point of making it an uphill battle.
6. I use a similar build axe/focus + staff (I find it has the best LF generation). I find that even with good LF generation, a DS build is too dependent on DS which can be drained quickly with even minor focus leaving you with axes which feel weak.

I think the thing we need to start demanding is videos.

We have a few people who talk about how fine the Necro is.

I ask to please, please prove me wrong. Post a video containing enough content that we know it isn’t a fluke.

Post a video of you performing in a role better or equal to a different class similarly spec’ed.

If we should all l2p… then teach us how to play. Lead by example.

Also, let’s not forget that anything this Necro tried to do… that thief was still holding onto a 3 second fear.

I think it is good to know that there are counters (pseudo-counters really).

But, my problem with help like this is the following:

What if he didn’t take Spectral Armor? What if he wasn’t dagger spec? What if he had lich instead of golem? Should we really be forced into one build merely to avoid being blown up in just a few seconds by a thief?

Let’s assume for a moment that he does have a stun breaker (a good build would imo)… it doesn’t seem unreasonable to assume it was on CD since it has a heinous 60 second CD.

Moreover, I find on my thief that stuns don’t really allow someone to get away from me. Between steal, HSS, my bow, and improved move speed signet I don’t really feel like anything gets away.
I initiate. One of us dies, or I get away with stealth.

Moreover, look at the damage he took? What is the Necromancer’s take for such a large give? It clearly isn’t tank. It isn’t power. It isn’t large damage output. It is a larger health pool (which clearly doesn’t stop the burst in this game).

I think you should keep playing it.

Yes. I think 1v2 we can generally ‘hold our own,’ but I can’t really think of a class that puts 40 points into the two tank lines that can’t.

You also probably came to the conclusion that our damage wasn’t as bad as you expected… but above applies. Any class that puts 30 into damage will have decent damage.

My point is this. We suffer from a bad case of ‘anything i can do, you can do better.’

We are not the best tanks when we spec for tank. We are not the best dps when we spec for damage.

The class isn’t broken to the point of unplayable. The class is weak to the point of fast becoming unfun.

I rolled a thief (and a mesmer actually) and it is a great feeling contributing overtly to the team. I like building them both as most every weapon feels meaningful and every trait is important. These are feelings I don’t get with the necro.

here’s a difference in what people are complaining and what is an actually valid feedback. Most problems, yes, it is ‘learn to play’. The number of bads in this game is suprising even among mesmers thieves and guardians. But given these classes are popular, the ease of how these classes can be counterered should already be well known now.

Oh this reasoning is frustrating. Yes, most of it is l2p… unless you are a thief, mesmer, or guardian… in which case magically you already know how to play.

Thief is a glass cannon, stun him once in his rotation and he’s forced to try to reset. Get agressive with him, and not sit passive every time he goes invisible, and you’ll find yourself winning against thieves consistantly.

This is not true at all. Thieves are glass cannon because they get to build glass cannon and get away with it due to the innate defensive nature of a stealth.

I run a stealth build thief and I feel like I can survive your average encounter far more easily than I can as a Necromancer.

Finally, I would like to give my most valuable piece of advice to those that complain about Guardian, Thief, Mesmer. The easiest counter to them is to roll one. I dropped my Necro for a Thief a week ago. Smartest thing I ever did. I now get to PvP with out being unreasonably annoyed when I am done.

You’re welcome.

@Narmix

Agreed. I enjoy the debuffs actually. It adds character and can actually be used offensively which I think is fun.

Speaking of this, does anyone know how Confusion works with skills that remove/transfer debuffs?

If I transfer Confusion back to the mesmer, do I take Confusion damage first? Does it even get sent over?

Similarly with Consume Conditions. Does that eat Confusion with or without damage? Can I die from Confusion trying to heal myself?

If it makes you feel better, this is how all MMO games are launched. This is one of the smoothest I have ever been a part of.

Should we accept that MMOs at launch are always incomplete? Now that is a different question…

I am also curious, do you think that some of the success with your build has to do with how unused power specs on necros are?

And as your build takes off and as more people play it (or something like it), will its power remain strong?

For example, I find people stay in wells too long or don’t use stun breakers to roll out of wells. Do you worry that once people see that staying in a well for its full duration is super damaging, the spec will lose some viability?

@Tony

I am not disagreeing with you. I have no reason to think that you don’t do well.

The problem is this:

We (the vast majority of forum-crawling Necro players) feel that conditionmancer is the best of all specs and even that pales compared to other condition based classes.

A lot of us are looking for proof that this isn’t the case.

We are just not being shown a lot of proof.

Many of us have experimented with various power builds, DS focused builds, condition builds, minion builds, and tank builds. Regardless of which route I choose, I feel outshined by others that are traiting for the same role.

Now, I grant you, this may not be the case. We all may have a horrible case of “l2p”. That said, a video would not be a bad place to start.

Am I taking crazy pills?

Who gets to use DS without taking any damage?

The moment I shift into DS I am stunned which makes 30 points in the DS line mandatory (for damage while in DS). Moreover, even on the off chance I am not CC’d down, or I have wisely brought stability with me, I am pulled out of DS incredibly quickly (typically by a thief, mesmer, or ranger).
If I use fear to push them off of me that gives me one more cast of life blast… which rarely makes the difference.
This all might be doable (although I doubt it) if LF generation was remotely decent. As it stands right now ‘Blood for Power’ is mandatory and the staff + mark traits is the only decent weapon for generation.
Finally, let’s not call it burst. It is more like pretty good sustain (for the few seconds it is up).

Oh and in a game in which you pretty much have to fight on points… a 3 second AOE fear which takes very little skill to use properly will almost certainly allow the thief to decap a point.

This thread was mostly said as a joke about the state of the Necromancer (sometimes it feels like no matter how we spec, there is a class out there that can do it better).

But to add to the more serious discussion, I am not necessarily asking for a buff (although admittedly with the number of gap closers on the classes you want to fear off of you 1 second seems a little short… that one second is really only the matter of one autoattack). If I were to pick what to change, I would reevaluate the thief’s fear. It is less of an issue now, but 3 seconds is enough time to blow through our entire DS and most of our health depending on the build.

You know that’s not how it works… right?

@metaphorm

I appreciate the semi-snarky answer. I believe you meant this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Stolen_skills

In any case, it doesn’t tell me from which champ they come from. My fault for not being more specific.

Similarly, navigating gw2db.com for this question isn’t efficient. The page on “steal” doesn’t link to abilities, and the abilities themselves don’t say where they come from.

For example,

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/8247-steal

or

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/16129-whirling-axe

If anyone knows, what I would like is to know what skill I am going to get from each class in PvP.

Can someone list the Thief skills from PvP (no need to list the pet ones) for me?

A link to a website would work fine. Most of what I am finding is from Beta, and I am not sure if they are updated.

I fear a thief for 1 second. Thief steals and fears the entire point for 3 seconds.

Anything you can do I can do better?

I like it quite a bit. I think it provides interesting choices (go for the kill and hurt yourself or back off).

It may be a bit much on certain classes (Guardian’s 20 second Retaliation from one skill alone, I’m looking at you), but I wouldn’t even be comfortable saying that just yet.

I would really like the Retaliation visual to be more dominant though. As it is right now, that “hard choice” is hard to make since you don’t even know that a class has the retaliation buff (quickly anyway).

I would also like to add that Traits feel a tad schizophrenic.

They really put us into a jack-of-all, master of none. I wouldn’t actually have a problem with this, but the trade offs are generally too much. Our damage out-put drops of significantly for a relatively small increase in tank or vice versa.

I think that with some fair changes to DS, some change to make other weapons viable, and bug fixes, we will be in a pretty decent place where we can actually start to discuss Necro balance OP/UP. Until then, it seems less UP than broken.

Anyway, very good post and I hope it is read by a dev. Jon’s first post (the L2P one) annoyed me (but in his defense he did go on to make some reasonable points), and I am tired of people acting like Necro is just coincidentally the class that all of the whiner’s went to.

Finally, perhaps I have been spoiled by the phenomenal community involvement of LoL, but it would be nice to have some report on the state of the Necro.

Oh I didn’t mean go axe/dagger. I meant go axe or dagger + an offhand (I prefer focus for LF generation).

But I generally agree. They just don’t feel as complete as the scepter.

I like a lot of the spell effects. They are subtle but amazing (the staff turning into a scythe? Yes, please!).

Lich form looks boss.

Plague form, thematically is incredible.

Unlike the majority (it seems), I really like the way the pets look.

Conceptually, I love Deathshroud.

I am loving Stealth/Backstab thief. All HS nerf did was separate the wheat from the chaff.

@Jackel

Let me know how it is. I found dagger didn’t generate as much life force for me as I was using more life force for defense (given the proximity) and couldn’t reliably kite enemies.

Meant this… http://www.gw2build.com/builds/simulator.php#1.5.4.7.18.0.5.32.5.0.106.109.127.121.130.8.8.43.306.0.0.0.0.0.334.339.0.0.0.0.366.369.371.15.0.25.0.30

Tilron.2738:

@Navi – I do not care about Spvp or Tpvp balance, they mean zero to me. WvW and PvE (PvE including dungeons fyi) matter to me about balance and Necromancers are good in these two area’s

Why balance a class based on arena pvp when only a small section of players are going to play that mode compared to the other modes? If you want to play PvP arena’s there are many games that balance classes for that type of game play. Go play LoL if you want balanced arena PvP or other games like that. This game main focus is PvE and it should remain that way.

I like how you get to decided which is more important because you think sPvP and Tpvp are important, you think the rest does not matter, I disagree. I think spvp and tpvp are useless mini games, why balance a game based on a mini game?

WvW and PvE balance matter more to me than s PvP Epen.is Arena’s that have zero baring on the game and are nothing more than a mini game.

Also, since we can agree that the class has bugs and is not yet working at 100%, nobody can say that Necromancers are not balanced for Spvp and Tpvp until our stuff is fixed.

@QSpec – I am making a point that unlike these others, I do not believe the Necromancer class is a useless class, far from it in my opinion.

I could still agree with what you are saying while disagreeing with you. I won’t jump into a PvE argument. I frankly don’t enjoy it that much. I won’t speak to how we do in WvW because it is just a huge zerg. For the sake of this argument, I will grant you that we are okay in both PvE and WvW.

I will still make the claim that we are broken beyond just a few bug fixes (as far as sPvP is concerned).

Oh I meant to add how I play my build:

Something like this (I am at work so this might not be 100%).
http://goo.gl/oBk3r

I am unsure of runes/sigils (A work in progress for sure).

I run an axe/DS build on occasion. It feels a tad weak, but it is a ton of fun.

What he was talking about I think we can safely call the “myth of the Necromancer”.

It is what the class was.

Namely, we are constantly going in and out of DS soaking up damage while dealing damage/adding utility/etc.

The actuality is that LF is hard to come by without a very specific skill/weapon build (take scepter for example… you get 2% life force every 10 seconds. With zero skills/traits to build life force as a sceptermancer you pretty much don’t have any).
PS Devs: this could be partially fixed by giving us 100% LF everytime we respawn.
Our DS damage isn’t even that strong.
Even though it is an extra health bar, it is blown through (much like our health pools).
Our CC is limited (a chill that puts us in melee range and a 1 second fear every 20 seconds).

This has no doubt been mentioned before, but just in case:

We have one line that is pretty much a direct buff for DS.

What if we had a trait in other lines that would alter DS?

For example (just spitballing), a trait in the Conditionmancer line that would remove the teleport on DS #2 and/or one that would add a bleed to DS #1?

It seems a fairly straight forward way to buff DS depending on spec.

If you really want a frustrating but fun build though, I recommend trying a DS build. I haven’t perfected mine yet, so I won’t link anything. I would instead mess around traiting it and seeing what you like.

You will get murdered if someone gets on you, but if you are in the back casting untouched the damage is good and you feel a lot like a dark arts mage.

Go axe/staff with it. You need all of the LF you can get your hands on.

I don’t want to discourage you from trying out dagger or axe (I was unimpressed with dagger completely if I didn’t make that clear :P ). I just want you to be forewarned that it will be difficult. I do it on occasion, but you had better be feeling pretty zen when you do try it.

I like staff direct damage if I get to stand back and use it (the range is amazing). I have also tried some interesting hybrid builds that worked fairly well with staff/traited for range wells using scepter/bleeds only for close fights.

That said, the best damage you are going to get is to run up into scepter range and autoattack 1 while stacking bleeds via #2 in DS, dagger(OH) #5, and scepter #2.

It depends on what you are doing with it?

I like axe/dagger for PvE. I prefer Staff (and rarely switch out of it) for WvW, and Scepter/Dagger seems to be about the only real sPvP/tPvP weapons.

Saying Necro’s aren’t broken because of PvE and WvW when everyone else is talking about why Necro’s are broken in sPvP is equivocating… at best.

So I assume by inference that you want a ‘power’ build. You are using the wrong weapon combo for it. Scepter/Dagger is the Conditionmancer build. The two weapons that are power oriented are daggers and axe. Both are considered quite weak. I like axe for a DS build as I find it’s #2 to be more reliable than the melee-ranged dagger. The DS build is actually quite fun but not super viable. Your main source of damage comes from a form that you get knocked out of rather quickly. That said, if you are able to free cast your damage isn’t bad at all.

I tried a life siphon build with daggers. It ended up so badly that I wouldn’t recommend it. Daggers are arguably our hardest hitting weapon (I believe). They also come with a very nice stun (#3). That said, they are difficult to keep on a mobile enemy, and you often compromise some defense for a power build, so melee range can be terrible.

Staff is okay on your build. It is generally accepted as almost a must have in most builds. It has a lot of utility regardless of the build with fear, condition transfer, and chill.

I couldn’t get your link to work. My advice on traits is that we have no glass cannon build. We need toughness or life. And frankly, we need them both. I see nothing wrong with your skills. You might tweak them depending on how you play and how they work for you.

I prefer lich in a power build (as left unchecked your damage is amazing), but it is underwhelming and you will get Moa’d… and you will scream obscenities.

Despite everything I said above, there really is only one viable build. Conditionmancer is the only build in which the ‘uphill battle’ is less ‘uphill’. You can make other builds work. You can even do well. But just know that you are working harder for the same results (sounds like you are already feeling this).

I still Necro for PvE.

But, thief for sPvP… and let me tell you, the grass is greener.

Didn’t even go a cheese build (Stealth/Backstab).

Lyuben.2613:

That’s a real shame.

I play engineer most and enjoy them, but necro was the first class I ever was interested in, and what I really loved the idea of, was the tough, daggery, melee and healing guy.

When I really look at it, too many traits are too weak and negligible.
Damage seems low whatever you do.
Most utilities seem weak and not worth slotting.

I did like the death shroud though, I like how the fear is instant cast and can be done at any time.

And the staff, while being pretty weird, is pretty great with visuals.

I mean, I could give it a shot.

Hopefully by the time I get to a higher level they get some buffs but I never know.

You can do it. I run an axe necro in PvE, and I have done a fair amount of sPvP as both a dagger build and an axe build.

That said, prepare to feel like you are fighting an uphill battle.

I always end up going back to scepter/dagger conditionmancer because I always end up so frustrated.

The first comment (where it seemed like he was implying l2p) annoyed me.

But, in his defense, his later comments were much better.

Sjach Darasv.3729:

No it is not unreasonable to expect balance thrown your way for the 8v8 WvWvW side of things. The game is currently being balanced around the 5v5 format though. It’s been said by tons of people other than me, as well, if GW2 makes it to the e-sport scene, the 5v5 tournament format is how it will be taking place. Considering they want it to be an e-sport, and all these professions or builds people are saying are OP, and yet the people that play tourney mode never have a problem dealing with them, I would say it is safe to think that it is being balanced around the 5v5 format.

I don’t doubt that the game is being balanced around 5v5. The question is whether it is also being balanced around 8v8s. Arenanet needs to come out and have a candid talk about how they view balance (like WoW did in Arena 2s…)

The game can and will have to be balanced around more than one aspect. It will have to be balanced (likely) around PvE, and I imagine 8s (seeing as how that will be the more popular). I can see them let WvW turn into a ‘come what may’ situation.

Sjach Darasv.3729:

It probably is underwhelming in the zergfest that is WvWvW and the 8v8 sPvP, I have been there myself and seen it. But the game is balanced around tPvP and PvE dungeons, and the group synergy a skilled necromancer can bring to a well co-ordinated team is scary. Like I said, if I’m alive my team is practically untouchable, and while no, I have not been turned Moa in lich form, I have been turned Moa in plague, sucks worse when your spamming 2 and next thing you know your channeling some sub par useless ability and being pounded on my phantasms lol. However in a team of 5 environment a good support/conditionmancer brings alot to the table. Sure our auto attacks with weapons blow, but, I for one, could care less, with the rotation of skills on staffs and wells, and the use of death shroud for a fear slight health buffer to pop back out, you are constantly using every ability to hinder your opponent anyway so auto attack become moot.

This is the thing… the game is not necessarily balanced around 5v5. They’ve yet to come out and specifically say what they are balancing for. That said, as an 8v8 player (at least for now), I can and do expect a reasonable amount of ‘balance’ thrown my way.

It is a feature implemented in their game. It is a feature that will be used by the vast majority of players (compared to tPvP), and it is one in which (I would argue) that balance is not 100% with Necro being the most egregious of offenders. Worst yet, it will be this type of pvp by which their game will be judged (not by 5s).

Finally, I would hope that if their balance philosophy does become support for tPvP that they would do away with sPvP as 8s and replace it with a system that is 5s.