Guild Wars 2

I think it was good players voiced their opinion, what I thought as rather stupid: Arguing over personal point of views on the matter… that’s neither beneficial nor helpful. Though some might had a good past time with it

I think it would have been enough to make the range bonus baseline/or the 10% dmg increase trait…

A nice baseline change would have been range +5% dmg base, that would have been 10% on unload (dual training is base line)

To put it flatly our damage got boosted nicely xD

think about it, we lost 10% dmg on +6 initiative, +5% dmg on flanking and +5% on dagger for example:

We got: easier access to executioner and revealed training +7% crit dmg over 90% health + around 200 ferocity (a bit more actually) from practiced tolerance and 250 ferocity of no quarter… and we got lead attacks 1% dmg per ini…

Direct comparison, first value is before patch, second after:
Power: 2698 → 2766
Precision: 2151 → 2141
Crit Chance: 69.33% → 65.33%
Ferocity: 1145 → 1257
Crit DMG: 226.33% → 233.80%

Under the effect of fury crit DMG goes up to 250.46%

Values are with assassins and agility signet, before patch 66002 and now SA/CS/Trickery

Out of the other thief pics here I really like the rouge angel approach, the black afro thief and I really like the approach Genocide did.

The angel type really looks like something of an fallen/ gone rouge like angel, who surely likes to get his hands on a lot of things, enemies throats included… well I’m sure his daggers do more of the work here, hehe.

The afro one is sure unique. He looks like the practical type who is in the business for a long time and need nothing flashy for that, he knows what he has to do and why. Sure looks like a kind person at heart somehow.

The thief of Genocide looks more of a upstart thief, who’s promising a lot of talent and sure dresses accordingly to get his job done.

The thief of Alexandar sure would look like a desert/junge thief in brown… that would be my color choice to get to that theme

My human thief was made with something like nobleman/King of Thieves in mind.

He is charming if he likes, but you can see you should not trust him. For good measure he uses tormented weapon skins, which can look like the weapons of a Assassins Sect (especially the daggers)

I think I got that down quite nice. I hope I could provide for your inspiration

As you use shadow trap that might end valuable, or you try out dagger training for poison upkeep to diminish the heals of your opponent

pre order and purchase are two different things

I am pretty sure that the S/P Trickster will be alot of fun xD
Though Traitwise i might opt for the signets of power and using our nice little Sigil which buffs our evade possibiltys and precision (and remove a condi) or the infiltrator

Were do you take your confirmation from, that there will only be one zone?

Jongi.7612:

echo.2053:

Jongi.7612:

No no no no no… just no. Your not entitled to anything. You even helped my point across that you think your entitled because you bought the game 3 years ago. Did you not forget you got soooo much that isnt able to be gotten anymore in those 3 years without paying for it like living story season 2? Or how about just all the time you spent in game already, or the free level 20 boosts, or whatever else you could think of.

This is exactly what my original post was addressing, people need to understand this.

What do you mean I’m not entitled to what I pay for? If Im paying the same price as a new player whose buying the full game plus exspanion then i better be getting a second useable copy of gw2 to do whatever I desire with. If that is not the case ( which its not) then that is a bait and switch which yes should anger you.

They can keep their instant lvl 20 scrolls, I never asked or begged for them. in fact they are ridiculous storage wasters since they don’t stack. My character was level 80 before the 1st year, was still level 80 when the second year came around, and this third year…. guess what level the character will be – ill give you a riddle its a two digit number that looks like 80 and the second digit isn’t an 8.

What dont you understand that its JUST HoT. My character was level 80 before the first few months, your point? It doesnt mean I cant get a level 80 revenant in like… oh… however long it takes to get me out of the starting area.

Your not paying for the core game, get it through your head already.

I think the wording is just a bit complicated: He just wants the same value (I’ll remind you value is bound to be subjective)
That is his view on the matter and that is his choice, he can do that I think. You mustn’t share the same sentiment, no?

phys.7689:

Rai.9625:

phys.7689:

yes if you go to a restaurant and they give you a fork to own if you buy a meal, then people who buy that meal should also be able to get the same fork to own.

especially if the item is sold as, Buy the early bird special and get a free fork to take home!

everyone who buys the special should be able to get the same fork, no matter how many forks they buy, how many they have at home, or how many sippy cups they drink from

That would be Ideal, though there is no “having rights” involved. And everyone should be allowed his opinion: My opinion, cool if I own no fork i get one and can eat. Oh, I own a fork, to bad that I wont get that promo gift fork… it would be nice if i could get a knife instead, but well. The meal is still worth it

Again MY OPINION! If you have another, I can understand that and I think you are right. If you don’t get it(the fork), you won’t go there anymore and you are saying so. Nothing wrong with that, as there is a chance, that you could (as unlikely as it may be) change something. I think that is a good thing.

what isn’t good: trying to ‘force’ others to take the same Point of View as yourself…

that is why i say: I’m fine with it as it is, if you are not, say so! Maybe it could change with enough voices. that is a good thing, no? Just don’t try to convert those who have another opinion, that is all^^

Edited PS: Though even my words could be interpreted as trying to convert you to see, that it is just about a personal PoV… xD

you can not care about a fork, but you cannot say that people who cannot get the same fork and want it are getting the same service as people who can get the fork.

you cannot say they arent treating customers differently for the same purchase at the same time.

the only point of view is how you feel about that.

Never said that, did I? Just saying that it is your personal value to take offense/interest in that regard. And that is fine.
IN no word I said that was complete and utter equality. (Though I must point out, technically you can get the same exact as the newcomers: A NEW ACC/NEW GW2/NEW HOT—- it just doesn’t hold the same value on many different levels here and that I see the same way)

Just saying that getting at each other throats because of PoVs is not… helpful to what you and a lot of other want to archive. That is all.

You want same Value as Newcomers. That in and on itself is fine and you should voice that.

So please refrain from trying to find anything I could mean to offend facts or bash other PoVs… there is none.

Of course it can be seen as a bad customer service/offer. No arguing there… or it can be seen as a offer for promotional purposes and you yourself aren’t ‘lucky’. Both is true.
And whichever you choose from that is right for you. That doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be made simply:
They could have foreseen that players want equal value and they should have acted accordingly… I would have at least

As far as I read here:
There are those who felt mislead by the wording of the shop site (it can sound like getting a free additional copy of gw2 base)

There are those who want the same value as newcomers (something of the same value as a new additional copy of gw2)

Some say it isn’t worth the money (either because the content seems to little, or they miss another char slot, like they got in gw1 and so on) There are more reasons behind for some players who say it isn’t worth the money

I think all Point of Views have their points and could have been avoided, though as I said, they are PoVs and there is not much room to debate a PoV ;D

Solori.6025:

Straylight.7529:

KGS.9842:

Straylight.7529:

Yes, that is correct. You get less value than the new players. But since you’re not a new player it shouldn’t concern you in the first place. Don’t think so hard about what “other people” get. Just ask yourself whether HoT is worth your money or not.

it actually concerns me (us) because both me and the new player are paying the same price for the same product in the same time period; that is simply put discrimination

You’re not being discriminated, jeez…
Yes, everyone gets treated the same way. Just like you said. You’re nothing special for already owning the game.

Actually it kind of is.

It’s like going to a restaurant because they have a deal that says
“Our pasta includes ( key word here try not to miss this ok) a silver fork.

You already have a silver fork you bought from the place 3 years ago.
So you and a tourist walk in, order the pasta deal.

And the waiter gives the tourist a plate of pasta and a silver fork.

and just hands you a plate of pasta and says
" Sorry, I forgot to mention when you ordered and paid for this you don’t get the silver fork because you have one from 3 years ago."

That is the issue.

That is true on another level, It really was badly worded on the shop site… still, that is not the problem everyone shares, some have other priorities why they are upset.

phys.7689:

yes if you go to a restaurant and they give you a fork to own if you buy a meal, then people who buy that meal should also be able to get the same fork to own.

especially if the item is sold as, Buy the early bird special and get a free fork to take home!

everyone who buys the special should be able to get the same fork, no matter how many forks they buy, how many they have at home, or how many sippy cups they drink from

That would be Ideal, though there is no “having rights” involved. And everyone should be allowed his opinion: My opinion, cool if I own no fork i get one and can eat. Oh, I own a fork, to bad that I wont get that promo gift fork… it would be nice if i could get a knife instead, but well. The meal is still worth it

Again MY OPINION! If you have another, I can understand that and I think you are right. If you don’t get it(the fork), you won’t go there anymore and you are saying so. Nothing wrong with that, as there is a chance, that you could (as unlikely as it may be) change something. I think that is a good thing.

what isn’t good: trying to ‘force’ others to take the same Point of View as yourself…

that is why i say: I’m fine with it as it is, if you are not, say so! Maybe it could change with enough voices. that is a good thing, no? Just don’t try to convert those who have another opinion, that is all^^

Edited PS: Though even my words could be interpreted as trying to convert you to see, that it is just about a personal PoV… xD

Jongi.7612:

Rai.9625:

Jongi.7612:

Rai.9625:

Just to clarify… less rights?

With games sad as it is… you don’t have many rights. xD wrong words again.

Sorry that I do that, working in a communication heavy branch does that to people.

For the whole discussion it boils down to:
For the money: is it worth in your opinion.
If no you will say why (for example hell, they get more value than me, thats a principle thing and hard to argue, or not enough content yet for that money, i would consider if yxz was included)

You are all trying to argue about… taste and preferences, about principles. That will in no way get you anywhere and defeats the purpose of what you really want:

You want to give Anet a message: Not enough for my money (for different reasons), so that they can see that opinion

You are diluting what you want to get across with hasty words which will most likely give the wrong impression.

For example: Cambeleg just says: for 50 bucks I want (out of principle) the same value as newcomers. So either a price reduction or another promo gift would push me over the edge to prepurchase/order whatever.

Nothing wrong with that, no?

Another player said:
For 50bucks… the content shown so far seems way to less for me to consider it worth it. Maybe show alot more maps, say a number of new instances etc. And I will consider buying/prepurchase/order it for the money.

again, nothing wrong there

The thing is though, not everyone is saying that. They dont understand that when you pay for HoT thats what your getting. They however think because of a misunderstand that they should also get the core game free if they are a vet player already. They can do this if they make a new account and will end out ahead of the new players. ANet just needs to fix the wording on their product selection to say this because they already said it in the forums that new players will get the core game for free.

Existing players already got their monies worth. $60 bucks for everything that they got to experience and the free stuff that they received though they are ignoring that. They dont even bring up what they already experienced like the marionettes, scarlet battle, all the season 2 living story without having to pay 200 gems for each episode, boosts and so on. They just want it because someone else gets a free game without looking at everything.

Again… someone saying the same as I said, or maybe I hinted at: There are alot reasons for ppls not to buy.

Many ppl understand what they get, they are just not satisfied and voice it in a more ore less direct/effective way.

And honestly: You are the customer, it is always your choice to buy or not to buy. And if you say: hey that customer got that there for free, for the prices you tag, i want the same.
What is wrong with that. And there is nothing wrong with the seller saying: Sorry, only for new customers.
After that it is your choice to say and voice what you think of that: some will say: wow good idea/strategy
other might say: Hey I’m a regular and I think you should do the same for me or i won’t buy…. That is your choice and nothing wrong with that.

It is a choice you don’t have to do the same.

Because they arent really getting anything that a vet player has. Its along the lines of an earlier example I gave. Its like needing a fork to eat pasta, if you bring your own fork we will give you the pasta for the price listed, if you dont have a fork however we will provide one for you. People think though that just because someone didnt have a fork and the restaurant and they gave someone else a fork, they should in turn get one too. Its like a toddler that already has a sippy cup to drink out of, but when the other kid gets a sippy cup they in turn want that one. Its not like new players are getting all the new skins for free or something, they are just getting the core game because its needed to play HoT.

…. honestly… I didn’t said anything different. Just that this is a matter of the personal angle of view. If you say you don’t like it, you don’t like it and can say so.
Nothing more, nothing less.

You are trying to convert someone to your personal opinion/point of view. That almost never works. That’s all.

Neither do I say that you are wrong, nor do I say the others are wrong… just that instead of voicing your opinion, all here bears fruit is a mindless battle of sorts.
Again, that is my PoV in this case, which is neither wrong nor right. For some discussion of principals is important and many wish for a even PoV on such matters… that is fine.

Jongi.7612:

Rai.9625:

Just to clarify… less rights?

With games sad as it is… you don’t have many rights. xD wrong words again.

Sorry that I do that, working in a communication heavy branch does that to people.

For the whole discussion it boils down to:
For the money: is it worth in your opinion.
If no you will say why (for example hell, they get more value than me, thats a principle thing and hard to argue, or not enough content yet for that money, i would consider if yxz was included)

You are all trying to argue about… taste and preferences, about principles. That will in no way get you anywhere and defeats the purpose of what you really want:

You want to give Anet a message: Not enough for my money (for different reasons), so that they can see that opinion

You are diluting what you want to get across with hasty words which will most likely give the wrong impression.

For example: Cambeleg just says: for 50 bucks I want (out of principle) the same value as newcomers. So either a price reduction or another promo gift would push me over the edge to prepurchase/order whatever.

Nothing wrong with that, no?

Another player said:
For 50bucks… the content shown so far seems way to less for me to consider it worth it. Maybe show alot more maps, say a number of new instances etc. And I will consider buying/prepurchase/order it for the money.

again, nothing wrong there

The thing is though, not everyone is saying that. They dont understand that when you pay for HoT thats what your getting. They however think because of a misunderstand that they should also get the core game free if they are a vet player already. They can do this if they make a new account and will end out ahead of the new players. ANet just needs to fix the wording on their product selection to say this because they already said it in the forums that new players will get the core game for free.

Existing players already got their monies worth. $60 bucks for everything that they got to experience and the free stuff that they received though they are ignoring that. They dont even bring up what they already experienced like the marionettes, scarlet battle, all the season 2 living story without having to pay 200 gems for each episode, boosts and so on. They just want it because someone else gets a free game without looking at everything.

Again… someone saying the same as I said, or maybe I hinted at: There are alot reasons for ppls not to buy.

Many ppl understand what they get, they are just not satisfied and voice it in a more ore less direct/effective way.

And honestly: You are the customer, it is always your choice to buy or not to buy. And if you say: hey that customer got that there for free, for the prices you tag, i want the same.
What is wrong with that. And there is nothing wrong with the seller saying: Sorry, only for new customers.
After that it is your choice to say and voice what you think of that: some will say: wow good idea/strategy
other might say: Hey I’m a regular and I think you should do the same for me or i won’t buy…. That is your choice and nothing wrong with that.

It is a choice you don’t have to do the same.

Just to clarify… less rights?

With games sad as it is… you don’t have many rights. xD wrong words again.

Sorry that I do that, working in a communication heavy branch does that to people.

For the whole discussion it boils down to:
For the money: is it worth in your opinion.
If no you will say why (for example hell, they get more value than me, thats a principle thing and hard to argue, or not enough content yet for that money, i would consider if yxz was included)

You are all trying to argue about… taste and preferences, about principles. That will in no way get you anywhere and defeats the purpose of what you really want:

You want to give Anet a message: Not enough for my money (for different reasons), so that they can see that opinion

You are diluting what you want to get across with hasty words which will most likely give the wrong impression.

For example: Cambeleg just says: for 50 bucks I want (out of principle) the same value as newcomers. So either a price reduction or another promo gift would push me over the edge to prepurchase/order whatever.

Nothing wrong with that, no?

Another player said:
For 50bucks… the content shown so far seems way to less for me to consider it worth it. Maybe show alot more maps, say a number of new instances etc. And I will consider buying/prepurchase/order it for the money.

again, nothing wrong there

so you are saying roughly the content of 20 maps. I think we can fairly cut starter citys out of it as well as the maps which came through LS
(as we don’t know how many LS things we can get through the xpac)

I think WvW is hard to implement as well and the new borderland should cover xpac roughly in that aspect.

they showed us partly and tidbits of 3 maps were each map is around 3 times size/content than the current maps.

so they showed us halfway of that, what you expect. Roughly I mean. Though only in numbers of maps (we can’t gauge the amount of story missions and such).

I would say, there is a good chance that the missing 50% of map content needed are included, but in your case I would wait until after the release (release of more infos)
to decide if to buy for that price or to wait.
I can understand that

Cambeleg.7632:

Rai.9625:

That is not how it is: You can have more than one Account.
But I admit it sucks that the offer is not the best for me. I can decide between getting a new banana and apple… and save my old banana too, but I can only make one banana apple smoothie.
And I would prefer my ripened Banana for that, but wouldn’t get an additional banana for it. Such is the nature of promotional gifts.

“And I would prefer my ripened Banana for that, but wouldn’t get an additional banana for it.” There, theeeere is the point, Rai. You got it. This is why ‘Vets’ are mad, and why ‘Vets’ protest.

Never said I don’t get it… just that saying: I want the same! (New Acc/New GW2/New HOT)

Is not the same as saying: I want the same value (my acc/new HOT and new ACC/GW2) AS a new ACC/GW2/HoT is not of the same value to us, as for a newcomer because we would be ripped of our time invested.

I agree there, I really would like to get a promotional gift I could use… still I prepurchase because money/value option is fine for me. That’s all. Don’t think it is wrong to voice the opinion to want same value (not same thing).

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Rai.9625:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

We are asking for the same thing new players get. HoT + a copy of the core game.
Which, as I’ve said before, does have value even if you already own the game.

Equal treatment. Fairness. That’s what I ask for.

…. honestly: you can get the same: A BRAND NEW Acc including Base Game AND Expansion…

THAT is exactly what newcomers get xD

You want: The Expansion for your existing Account AND and additional new Account with just GW2 Base Game.

That’s is different.

If you want a similar Value, a similar promotional gift as newcomers get… well that I would understand. That would really be nice, I wouldn’t complain.

alas… most promotional things even those which don’t have a time limit don’t let you choose what you want as a gift/gift possibility

That’s not really different. They get the base game + hot on top of it. We get the base game seperately. Which can be given away to a friend, used as a mule or something else. Perfectly reasonable.

It is different: Newcomer gets one account, you would have two at the end ^^

But still you want the same value and as Accounts theirself hold no direct value, I can understand that you would like similar value.

Though you still do not want the exact same, that’s all. Nothing wrong with that I think. That is valid opinion and why not try to get it with saying that out loud?

I never reprimanded that you want same value… I just say that you used the wrong words here, as you can get the exact same: New Acc/New GW2/New HOT

though for us it is of lesser value, there is nothing to argue about that. You are right and I think it is ok to ask/say: for that money I want something of equal value as everyone, not the same, but same value, like and additional GW2 base Acc, or something else.

Nothing wrong there. Honestly, just pointing out the ‘wrong’ use of words.

Cambeleg.7632:

Rai.9625:

You just said you wanted to be treated the same/get the same. That’s all. And THAT you can get, new acc incl. exp.
That is what newcomers get. They don’t get an existing Acc and then the Exp…

You said the exactly same thing as me and saying I’m wrong. That is quite illogical for me. New player gets new acc, new gw2 new hot. You can too. That is all.

True is, it isn’t preferred and I can understand that.

Though you ‘demand’ or ‘wish’ to get something similar, but not the same. You want something else as a bonus, promotion, because you are a veteran, no?

I’ll explain it easier, Rai:

You have a [Banana] since two years ago. Anet comes and offers a bundle that contains an [Apple] and a [Banana] for same price that you bought your old [Banana]. You want the [Apple], but you can’t buy it without the [Banana], so you tell “good, in this case, I want the full pack”. Anet replies then: “if you already had a [Banana], you only get the [Apple]. You’ll have to save the old [Banana] and grab the new [Banana] since the [Apple] is bound”.

Now tell me, Rai: only ‘cos you already had a [Banana] since two years ago, you have less right to have a new [Banana] ’cos it’s included in the bundle? Or if you don’t get the [Banana], you’d not ask for something with equal value as compensation for this loss in the purchase?

That is not how it is: You can have more than one Account.
But I admit it sucks that the offer is not the best for me. I can decide between getting a new banana and apple… and save my old banana too, but I can only make one banana apple smoothie.
And I would prefer my ripened Banana for that, but wouldn’t get an additional banana for it. Such is the nature of promotional gifts.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

We are asking for the same thing new players get. HoT + a copy of the core game.
Which, as I’ve said before, does have value even if you already own the game.

Equal treatment. Fairness. That’s what I ask for.

…. honestly: you can get the same: A BRAND NEW Acc including Base Game AND Expansion…

THAT is exactly what newcomers get xD

You want: The Expansion for your existing Account AND and additional new Account with just GW2 Base Game.

That’s is different.

If you want a similar Value, a similar promotional gift as newcomers get… well that I would understand. That would really be nice, I wouldn’t complain.

alas… most promotional things even those which don’t have a time limit don’t let you choose what you want as a gift/gift possibility

The question is, how many maps are enough maps for you?

Cambeleg.7632:

Rai.9625:

I could quote myself… but KISS:
You can get the exact same. A brand new account including GW2 base Game and the Expansion on top. That is the exact same a new player gets and you can too.

Wrong, Rai. Since HoT binds to your account, if you want the core ‘for free’, you must open a new account and to start again, ’cos your HoT copy will be bound to this new account, not to your old one.

Maybe you’re fine being forced to start again, but many people isn’t.

You just said you wanted to be treated the same/get the same. That’s all. And THAT you can get, new acc incl. exp.
That is what newcomers get. They don’t get an existing Acc and then the Exp…

You said the exactly same thing as me and saying I’m wrong. That is quite illogical for me. New player gets new acc, new gw2 new hot. You can too. That is all.

True is, it isn’t preferred and I can understand that.

Though you ‘demand’ or ‘wish’ to get something similar, but not the same. You want something else as a bonus, promotion, because you are a veteran, no?

Cambeleg.7632:

Jongi.7612:

You didnt read my original post did you? People want something just because they have played the game since launch. THAT is what im addressing, not if you think the expansion is or isnt worth $50. I dont think steak should be $20, some people do… no point in arguing over that. But if you think you should get a free beef tip because you shopped there longer than someone who just walked in the door, thats entitlement.

Again, your point is wrong.

People don’t want something just because they have played the game since launch. Forget this idea… c’mon, forget it! Good. Now, repeat with me: people want to get same deal than a new player. Not more, not less. Same. If they get a new core copy, ‘vets’ want too; and if ‘vets’ aren’t gonna get a new core copy, you should give em something in equal value since they’re getting less for their purchase.

Not for repeating same defense, the protests will be less justified. For every ‘vet’ who considers this deal as unfair, is justified. Its really just that simple.

I could quote myself… but KISS:
You can get the exact same. A brand new account including GW2 base Game and the Expansion on top. That is the exact same a new player gets and you can too.

I think we will see if there is more content or not, if yes it would surely be very good, if not, alot of sales will be not be made until first ‘sale’ or holidays.

I sure hope you’ll get to play sooner more so than later!

Though I would test PvP and WvW at least, you never know^^ if it is bull you still can opt to wait, a try won’t hurt much.

Why so… complicated:
You like gw2 and you like what you have seen in HoT: Prepurchase, don’t mind anything else

You like gw2, but there wasn’t enough to convince you to buy/preorder/prepurchase HoT: wait. Either until more Content is revealed where you feel the price is right, or until the price drops

Arguing about how ppl get someting more, how we Veterans are treated without respect… well, if you really want to see it that way… then do. I sure hope you don’t see everything like that in life.

Think of it as a promotional thing: You could get exactly the same as every newcomer: A gifted gw2 acc including expansion… or should I say a complete NEW gifted gw2 Account including the expansion?
You opt to forgo this gift, if you add the expansion to your existing Account… it IS sad that we don’t get a promotional gift. Though who cares?

For me it boils down to:
You think HoT is offering enough new content for your money, or you don’t

If no, wait, but it is no use/there is no need to ragem flame, cry about it. Would be the same as first time visitors to a club get an 50% discount from this moment on, for their first two orders/club fee… practically they paid half of that what you did… but… so what?

Though I can understand to say: Hey Anet: This is to expensive for my taste because, not enough content shown. No bang for my buck: Might reconsider if you add char slot in base/lower price by.

Though somehow it always get out of hand…. maybe you should just KISS (keep it short and simple)

For me:
I like GW2, I like what I’ve seen in HOT, I’ll prepurchase soon

xD the same mistake as in the Stream/YT Upload… xD we don’t want to steal slow, honestly we don’t… good thing it is not present in the table or switched with quickness ^^

But please don’t change it… it is heaven sent, that we can get stability off quite foolhardy and aegis.

On a side note, Vuln increases Condi dmg now… and don’t forget Sinister Stats. that can become a quite heavy CDD with alot of Direct DMG

I wonder why most ppl don’t want to see the benefit of poison… I mean, we get 33% or 2s of poison and… holy do we strike fast and often with daggers.
The AA chain poison got even buffed to 6s…
How often did I thought, kitten you CD on Weapon Switch… I could need the poison now, but had to decide against it.

And honestly the heal on steal is nice, but I think Dagger Training is really worth a shot.
babazhook.6805 I totally agree with you

Depends I think, due massive traits bonus in ferocity, maybe Assassin will the way to go, for condi maybe sinister. Poison and Bleeds… and Torment.. we can deal that massively I think

Trickery:
All Minor are the same, even Lead Attacks as the recharge of steal packed into it is just coming from the missing stat gain per line.

Adept:
-Uncatchable: nothing new here

-Flanking Strike: I think that is a fine tradeoff. We will see if it is stronger or not, I think that depends on the ICD and Duration. Hell of a trait if 2s to 6to8s ICD (we can whish!)

-Thrill of the Crime: As good as ever

Master:
-Bountiful Theft: As good as always, an official statement would be nice on the priority of the stolen boons (I sure hope it steals in a good order).

-Trickster: That sure is a nice Trait no? Withdraw is a Trick, Roll for Initative as well, or Haste and two of those tricks could trigger Feline Grace

-Pressure Striking: Hm. I Think that is not bad for Condi dealers. We have enough sources to interrupt.

Grandmaster:
-Quick Pockets: Well yea, I think this is a better place then Acrobatics

-Sleight of Hand: nothing new

-Bewildering Ambush: nothing new

So this is overall a nice change to Trickery:
you can go offensive/aggressiv (Flanking Strikes/Bountiful Theft/Sleight of Hand)
you can go defensive/utility (Uncatchable/Thrill of Crime/trickster/Quick Pockets)
you can go Condi buffed (Uncatchable/Trickster (CD for Caltrops for example)/Bewildering Ambush)
Yea nice right?

Acrobatics:
Beforehand the overall nerf of Vigor is well… it is what it is and for all classes so, cannot consider this a nerf for thief especially.

-Expeditious Dodger: Nothing new

-Feline Grace: This is nothing but a major nerf. It even has an ICD… It would have been a fine and just adjustment if the former functionality got the on successfully evading.
The only good thing: if I evade using a Weapon Skill or such I’ll get Vigor… so not all is lost. Maybe that will be enough to make this worthwhile. Maybe due to that this should be pending…
I mean we have a ton of skill which let us evade and each time we do this successfully we get Vigor (D/D 3 | S/D 3 | SB 3 | S/P 3| Withdraw | Roll for Initiative) Hmmm… maybe this nerf isn’t as heavy as it seems at the first moment.

-Endless Stamina: This works and looks more like an Acrobatic trait than the dmg enhancing trait there was before. This Change is fine.

Adept:
-Fleet Shadow: nothing new

-Vigorous Recovery: again nothing new

-Pain Response: Again nothing new. Though it is a good choice between those three: quick escape, more evade in battle, or standing my ground an saving an evade maybe/covering up a messed up evade

Master:
-Guarded Initiation: Not sure here… this looks more like a PvP/WvW Trait… and there 90% is more unlikely. At least as for those condition types. I think here it should have been the restistance thing they contemplated before.
Or removing one condition per strike as long as we are over 90%, though that might have been a bit… strong. Just not so sure about this trait.
Or maybe gain stability with this with an ICD? Compared to the condi cleanse on dodge the ele has…

-Swindler’s Equilibrium: Oh yeah that sure sounds nice. The ICD… I think it is fine. So many evade options with sword main hand.

-Hard to Catch: That sure is massive buff. No longer randomly thrown thru the arena, endurance refill, stun break. Yep sounds good if the ICD is again around 30s it is fine, if it is lower… wow another buff, but won’t bet on it

Grandmaster:
-Assasin’s Reward: nothing new here, maybe we get an increase in the healing? Would be nice

-Upper Hand: This is a nice Initiative regeneration trait. Though 3s ICD… maybe it is just right, maybe a bit high, or a bit low. This is up to test. Still a good trait. Though I think the tradeoff with Quick Recovery is ok bis good.

-Don’t Stop: Wow, that sure comes in handy. This seems like a nice trait throughout the board.

So… I’m a bit biased here: I really like the feel of the change, it feels acrobatic… though might on dodge is missing and the change to feline grace…
Though I think all in all it is okay, and as I pointed out: The new Feline Grace is on every Evade, not only dodge, so this could actually become ‘better’
I can understand why the Might on Dodge is gone, this is a movement heavy traitline, not focused on damage and we got a lot of DMG boost in CD and DA

_Shadow Arts: _
-Merciful Ambush: We would almost never use it otherwise and honestly: Every time I try to ress a player, which is not made invisible before hand (by refuge) leads to my death: So even that won’t change that probably. Sure I both get -25% dmg (by other minor trait) and both are invis when I come there-— still. Honestly I think Shadow’s Embrace should have been the minor trait here, as that is probably the trait almost every one who chooses SA will take anyway

-Meld with Shadows: nothing new

-Resilance of Shadows: Yea I think that is a good GM to Minor swap and reducing it to 25% is fine. That is a buff even if we loose the might. I mean: SA is now defensive as it should be and we got major buffs in DMG if you think about it

Adept:
There is almost no real Choice here. I mean.. Shadow’s Embrace is good as it is and Last Refuge is… for what do I need that? Maybe in PVE but…
honestly it is more like oh i’m at 40% health and… then dead.
In PvP well good one attack will miss and I’m invis… still have condis, still get hit by multi/channel skills… it isn’t that much of a help.
Another thing: if I used my Invis beforehand and have the revealed debuff…
The only choice here us if you are playing deception heavy. Hide in Shadows is now a deception, as well as Thieves Guild. Still.. the merit is meager in comparison.

That is not even an Adjustment… it’s plain. There is nothing to it. I think an Adept trait which would enhance Venom Share would have been more interesting: Like if you apply a venom via an attack out of stealth, you increase the duration of the condition by…/increase stack by 1/ won’t use up a charge of the venom / add one stack of Confusion or something like that.

To conclude: I’m not happy with the change in Adept and one Minor here… simply because it does not feel like a choice at all. It is not a buff, nor a nerf. It just is nothing. (at least I see it like that)
It is highly unsatisfactory

Master:
-Shadow Protector: Well it is… nice. For example a tanky medic thief. I fine with that here and that the ICD is gone is very very good, new troll build maybe xD

-Hidden Thief: Nothing new here

-Leeching Venoms: That is a really nice merge of traits. Thumps up for this buff

Grandmaster:
-Cloaked in Shadows: Well yeah, nothing really new and the merge with the fall damage trait is ok. Still somehow it seems lacking (I mean taking the fall damage to GM)

-Shadow’s Rejuvanation: As we must choose between this and Cloaked I sure hope the initiative part is a bit buffed in comparison to former Patience trait (initiative on entering stealth) somehow sure it won’t… Still a nice merge!

-Venomous Aura: Fantastic merge, nothing to complain here. It is a buff

As I said not really satisfied with Adept and Minor here

_Critical Strikes: _
-Keen Observer: No change here

-Unrelenting Strikes: Well it is a shorter ICD Furious Realiation. I think the shorter Duration and shorter ICD are much more appreciated. More reliable and new synergies. Though Opportunist was a fine trait… I think this trait fits more. Still the missing Initiative will be hard. This one is hard- I’d say pending, but likely a buff in DMG

-Ferocious Strikes: Well this is an easier to use/maintain DMG multiplier. I think this is actually a buff for PVP but for some thieves more of a debuff in PVE (it was easy to maintain more than 6 initiative in PVE and the multiplier was on for every attack, not only crits)

Adept:
-Side Strike: No changes here

-Signets of Power: This is a nice mix out of two former Traits. Sad as it is, again Initiative gain lost, still it is now much more of a choice. Assassin’s Signet could now be used to spike in more than one way and on reduced CD. Infiltrator’s Signet does profit from this a lot, Signet of Agility: Hell yea, in PVE it is my primarily used condi cleanse. Signet of Shadows: Well it may get some serious use now infight. The blind was ok (well… no not on that CD) but with CD reduction and Might this might get nice.
-should be a buff and a nice choice (still my ini gain is gone …)

-Flawless Strike: WOW that IS nice. I mean Runes of the Scholar are good, but we get 7% on top for crits? For a pure PVE dmg build… wow

Master:
-Sundering Strikes: I think a fitting position here from DA

-Practiced Tolerance: Hm,… from a bit HP to a nice Buff in ferocity. I’m all up for that. Those measly few HP never really saved my life, I mean come on we get around 1 to 1,5k life… most mobs hit us so hard we don’t even really life one hit more through that. (Just thinking fractals for example) Now it will get us DMG, as every 15p ferocity will give us 1% Critical DMG increase and we most likely will have around 2000 (more is even more likely) it will be over 10% dmg increase- I think this is a buff

-Ankle Shots: It is nice and since we can cripple with a few other ways or in teams, yeah nice. Still: In my opinion this is more a debuff: we loose the conditionless 10% DMG multiplier for pistols and we lost the trait for range (as long as it does not become baseline). If this would be applied to SB as well it would have been a huge buff, but now I consider this all in all a slight debuff (slight!) That is for PVE. PvP and WvW, well… this could actually be a nice adjustment

_Grandmaster: _
*-No Quarter: *That sure is a DMG beast Trait. I mean: ~16% more DMG on crits under fury and a good possibility to almost infinite fury for that. Oh yea it makes me wonder: if you are going solo, or in PvP… could Assassin stats be better here? I mean think about it. Sure excited about some new math here

-Hidden Killer: Good as it is, it has its uses for more endurable thieves (like WvW or chilled Dungeon Groups to backstab away)

-Invigorating Precision: As we are no longer stat forced by traitlines… this could actually become nice.

So this is a nice Buff overall. Lots and Lots of DMG here, or alternative utility to increase DMG and or become more versatile.

Deadly Arts:

I think this is a good adjustment and minor buff, regarding the Poison on Serpent’s touch, as we can’t see the ICD on Lotus Poison I’ll consider that pending.

_Adept: _
-Dagger Training: in exchange for 5% more DMG we get 33% poison chance… well I think this is more of a buff, not really DMG wise, but poison upkeep even on condi cleanse sure is good, even as non CDD, maybe a good alternative to mug in the pvp meta, you shall not heal fully! -buff

-Mug: no changes here, it was fine as it is

-Trappers Respite: well now that looks like a viable option to try out an invisible trapper, I consider this a buff. If it is enough to give rise to an viable trap build… we will see, I sure hope a lot of thieves will try to make one – buff

Master:
-Resourceful Trapper: Again this might help for trapper thieves. It is a Buff, if viable no one can say.

-Panic Strike: Well yeah, it is awesome as it is, the new placement next to revealed training is fine

-Revealed Training: same as Panic Strike

Grandmaster:
-Potent Poisen: Well as we have a lot of new/old ways to stack Poison, this sure looks good for a Condi spec. I mean 10% damage on top for poison is a buff, right?

-Improvisation: A shame we lost a DMG multiplier here, even if only for bundles (Frostbow my friend…) but sure makes up with versatility. Lets say, in group/dungeons it is a minor blow on the Meta. Though it still looks like a good change, atm I would say it is an adjustment

-Executioner:this sure is a better place for that trait, nice adjustment

All in all, they are good changes. I mean, there is nothing which destroy our play or builds in here, it is more compact. You could consider every choice out of three a choice between DMG, Condi and in fight utility. I mean ‘perma poison’ is like Condi or utilty (heal reduce, filler for condi cleanse), traps sure go either way, condi (needle trap) or utility (trapwire for example). Sure hope Trapper Thief will become playable!

So now the long Part:

All changes on steal are great and long overdue in my opinion:

-F2-Skill HELL YEA! That’s what I and a few other wanted right from the get-go<- quality

-increased range on steal: Nice, even if it is lower than the original trait, very good in the baseline<-overall a buff, even at the loss of the ‘superior trait’

-recharge reduce on steal: I think that is a strong change over the whole board of the thief, hell that is what makes a thief a thief it is one of our best utilities, even untraited (gap close) and the skills you get (now on f2) are more often than not useful!<- nothing short of a buff

About Skills:

-the changes on Haste are… nice. Now we get a new way to fury and the endurance remove removal (xD) makes it a more viable option to use this as a stun breaker AND damage/stomp/blast (and so on) buff – consider it a buff

-Withdraw: okay more healing is good, the +3 seconds on CD are a little blow, but not overly so, as you can decrease the CD via trait. I think it is a justified change (though a 12s CD on Withdraw would have been epic) – I consider it an adjustment, not a nerf

-Daggerstorm: well as a trick… it is a possible buff: reduce-able recharge and condi cleanse through trait- minor buff
The same goes for:
-Thieve’s Guild and
-Hide in Shadows for both are reduce-able in recharge

-Needle Trap/Tripwire: taking the strike damage from them is a buff. Invisible Trapper may be more of a trolling, but sounds fun! It makes the traps a lot more reliable in use – buff

-Combined Training: into baseline? buff what else

-about the Venoms: Well, as Residual Venom became Baseline, it was natural that devourer and basilisk got adjusted, but honestly? 2×1s Basilisk is a lot stronger than one 1,5s. Two interupts are better than one, the same goes for the immobilize. Getting the chance to pin him down a bit more securely, even while shorter is a fair adjustment.
Now if only Basilisk wouldn’t have casttime again… – one buff and one adjustment in my book

-so about the changes for the Skills/Traits which inflict poison:

-Each time the stack size is increased: Adjustment

-Each time the duration increased: -Adjustment damage wise, but it is a minor buff (healing reduce)

-The duration on Choking Gas… as poison stacks in intensity it is a fair adjustment, even if the healing reduce may suffer a bit on that part, so all in all this is more of a pending matter. -for me this is pending but tendency is a nerf

-The changes on the movement Skills are debateable, but I think this is more of a buff for all classes than a debuff (that doesn’t mean that this will be a good change, but that is pending, still it is a buff)<-buff (though it counts as one, even when it is on multiple skills)

-Stolen Bundles:
-the Healing Seed is more of a buff I think, more of a burst – buff I mean it ticks faster now
-Skull fear: Justified nerf, think about Improvisation, but even without I think its justified
-Mace Head Crack: justified nerf, if not liked by me

To sum this up: one Quality of Life change, 4 adjustments, 8 buffs, 2 just nerfs and 6 minor buffs.
So, for General and Skill Changes, we got a nice and more tasty meal here.

Now for the changes in Traits, for this we have to keep in Mind: we will get triple 6 distribution, which is really a major buff AND removing the stats is a buff as well, as you just no longer care what you get stat wise, Sinister Venom Share sounds interesting

This is lengthy, but don’t worry, my conclusion comes first: Feel free to comment on my comments to specific changes.

All in all I think it is a really good change, we can go now heavy critter in some extreme versions I think. Baseline there are no changes which destroy our play styles. We got a lot of nice possibilities here and some more true styles in the traitlines.

Even the changes on Acrobatics are not imminent catastrophically, I mean: We get Vigor ON EVERY evade… not only dodge (ok it is still more of a nerf)

Heck we can spam evades like no other, we can dodge… we can spam D/D 3, S/D 3, S/P 3, we have SB 3, we have Withdraw, Roll for Initiative.

Even if Vigor got nerfed… we easily get perma Vigor here. The only ‘Bad Thing’ we loose the DMG boni in this trait, but honestly? As you can now go 666 that ‘moved’ elsewhere if you think about it.

One thing I really don’t like… the resurrection Minor in SA and the Adept Traits… it simply is no real choice there, I mean… those traits had been ‘bad’ beforehand and Shadow’s Embrace is just what should have become Minor here.

And another Adept Trait to enhance/support Venom Share, even if it would just have been: Out of hide applied Venoms do something like increase stak/duration or anything like that, it didn’t have to be breaking, just a slight buff out of hide… our weapons do this already.

There are a few things I’m not really sure about, but we got presented with a lot of new possibilities I think, especially because we do no longer gain stats by the trait lines.

Sad is the missing range on Pistol…… real sad….

Appeal and Stimulus:
I sure hope there will be a lot of tests: for Condi, Trapper and things like that. Test it, don’t just search for a possibility to maintain the same build… that goes for all classes. Why not test a Sinister Venom Sharer with DA/SA and switching the third for optimized play?

Why not test a solo Assassin Perma Fury high Damage Thief? I mean we can get a huge bonus here, baseline precision will be 1000 and with the buff of gear stats and the boni on ascended we can maybe get around and up to 1450 precision additionally…

2450 precision equals around 76% crit chance, with our Signet of Agility it would be 2530 which means around 80%… add fury an we have 100% and with our new trait 100% uptime (almost).

Now we get around 500 bonus ferocity… 1% crit dmg per 15 points… 33% bonus DMG on crits. Maybe this will be stronger than Zerker? Even if the Stats are lower, maybe it will be possible (I assumed here the 30% increase on Stats and the roughly but not quite 4-5% more on ascended)

You forget that the poison duration of the AA Chain got increased. So with those two seconds we can guess we get almost 100% uptime for Poison even if the enemy uses cleanses.

If you battle against Guard for example I always use my SB for poison fields, makes life so much easier (even on downed ppl), so hell yea: Poison is nice and it is worth a try (for the record I almost never used the 5% dmg boni Trait before, because… why? It makes almost no difference, only in coordinated groups for speed runs)
SO this new Trait let us play with new possibilities: More easily cut the heal of enemies (we will see if more healers will appear in pve, I hope so) and in PvP it is worth a test.
AND for Condi builds this could very well become massive Damage (Dagger/Dagger for example, bleeds + poison is nice)

Trappers respite is just for testing a trap build, i did not say it is powerfull, that I cannot know yet. But it will be fun testing it

What I Agree on: Acro got hit hard and I think our place in the DPS ranking got lowered (I’m not happy with that)
But you know what? We will see so much hate from our enemies regardless, because we, the thieves have one major advantage:
Our play is not limited, we always find something to make the life of our enemies hell. Think about all the debuffs we got, it changed nothing. This Time as well, maybe we will be able to abuse Sinister stats to a degree and more.

But for me there are only two real nerfs: to our Acro line (which is hard) and maybe DMG overall (but not sure here, because… well we can go 66006 now, which gives us lead attacks in addition to executioner+ revealed training + ferocity buff including high uptime on fury… nope sorry I think we got buffed there

yea I’m all for a Dagger/Dagger Sinister Stat Venom Sharer with Bleed/Poison DMG in addition to “hard” AA attacks.
This really looks nice!

Ok so you are unhappy with the changes to dagger training? Why?

Now for PVE this is more likely a debuff and a try to push thief into condi (rune of thieves may be worth a test)

But you know, if more mobs come who can heal (the modrem already have them) I’m all for more poison and heal reduce. Heck, if I think about all the condi cleanse in PvP I’M ALL UP for testing this instead of Mug. It is not always easy to interupt a heal, but reducing the heal can make all the difference.

Yea Trappers Respite… well maybe a Trapper thief is viable now, something to test

Though: WHERE did you see Klepto being nerfed? It is the exact same and with the CD on Steal reduced it is more buffed than nerfed

Yea true SB 4 seems like a nerf, not really dmg wise (as it stacks it damage) but the healing reduce duration reduce is maybe a bit sad (love to spam downed ppl with it xD)

About Executioner and DMG increase on Poison… Well, on Condi DD this might get a HUGE difference. Thinking about dagger dagger bleed/poison. This might turn ugly hehe, but we will see (i think we can easily generate around 15/10 on perma stacks if done right)

The over the board Vigor nerf is a bit… nah. As well some of the Acro rearrangements. No Might for us :/

I think Venom Share with Sinister stats could turn out pretty fun