Guild Wars 2

Bomb Kit skills
[Bomb]

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: ½ second
• Recharge: 10 seconds
• Throw a remote charge to target location that you can later detonate. This bomb deals out effects based on the condition of the foes that it strikes.
• Damage: 418 (1.3)
• If you strike a burning foe: Bleeding (3): 5 seconds
• If you strike a confused foe: Daze: 1 second
• If you strike an immobilized foe: Knock-down: 1 second
• Bomb duration: 20 seconds
• Radius: 120
• Range: 900
  • This projectile uses the bomb bundle model.
  • This projectile shares its behaviour with that of Thief [Choking Gas].
  • This skill chains into another skill upon cast completion: [Detonate Bomb].

[Fire Bomb]

• FUNCTIONAITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 2 seconds
• Recharge: 15 seconds
• Lob a timed charge in target direction that explodes, burning foes. This bomb travels further based on how long you channel it.
• Damage (4x): 260 (0.3)
• Burning (4): 2 seconds
• Duration: 3 seconds
• Radius: 120
• Combo Field: Fire
• ½ second channel: 0 range
• Full channel: 900 range
  • This skill uses a ground-targeted directional reticle—the same kind that [Grasping Dead] used in the alpha—in order to guide the throw.
  • This skill’s projectile moves at 150% the speed of Engineer [Grenade Kit] projectiles.
  • This bomb’s projectile is a bright red.

[Concussion Bomb]

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 2 seconds
• Recharge: 20 seconds
• Lob a timed charge in target direction that explodes, confusing foes. This bomb travels further based on how long you channel it.
• Damage: 165 (0.5)
• Confusion (5): 5 seconds
• Radius: 180
• ½ second channel: 0 range
• Full channel: 900 range
  • This skill uses a ground-targeted directional reticle—the same kind that [Grasping Dead] used in the alpha—in order to guide the throw.
  • This skill’s projectile moves at 150% the speed of Engineer [Grenade Kit] projectiles.
  • This bomb’s projectile is a pure white.

[Smoke Bomb]

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 2 seconds
• Recharge: 25 seconds
• Lob a timed charge in target direction that explodes, confusing foes. This bomb travels further based on how long you channel it.
• Blind (4): 3 seconds
• Duration: 4 seconds
• Radius: 180
• Combo Field: Smoke
• ½ second channel: 0 range
• Full channel: 900 range
  • This skill uses a ground-targeted directional reticle—the same kind that [Grasping Dead] used in the alpha—in order to guide the throw.
  • This skill’s projectile moves at 150% the speed of Engineer [Grenade Kit] projectiles.
  • This bomb’s projectile is a dark black.

[Glue Bomb]

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 2 seconds
• Recharge: 25 seconds
• Lob a timed charge in target direction that explodes, confusing foes. This bomb travels further based on how long you channel it.
• Immobilized: 1 second
• Crippled: 1 second
• Radius: 240
• Puddle of glue duration: 3 seconds
• ½ second channel: 0 range
• Full channel: 800 range
  • This skill uses a ground-targeted directional reticle—the same kind that [Grasping Dead] used in the alpha—in order to guide the throw.
  • This skill’s projectile moves at 150% the speed of Engineer [Grenade Kit] projectiles.
  • This bomb’s projectile is a bright green.

Grenade Kit skills
[Grenade]

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 1 second
• Throw a grenade that explodes.
• Damage: 252 (0.75)
• Explosion radius: 120
• Vulnerability (2): 4 seconds
• Range: 1200
  • After-cast adjusted from (current?) to 0.40 second.
  • This skill is now a functional auto-attack.
  • This skill shares its projectile behavior with that of Elementalist [Fireball].

[Shrapnel Grenade]

• This skill now always throws 3 grenades.
• Individual grenade radius reduced from 150 to 120.
• Recharge increased from 5 seconds to 15 seconds.
• Bleeding per grenade changed from 1 stack for 12 seconds to 2 stacks for 5 seconds.
• The grenade placement spread for this skill is now inverted. Grenades now leave the Engineer in a scattered spread (similar to how grenades land when thrown at maximum range) and gather to a point as they travel farther through the air.
• Added a minimum range: 50

[Flash Grenade]

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: ½ second
• Recharge: 10 seconds
• Throw a grenade that explodes in a blinding flash.
• Damage: 33 (0.1)
• Blind: 5 seconds
• Explosion radius: 180
• Range: 1200

[Freeze Grenade]

• This skill now always throws 3 grenades.
• Individual grenade radius reduced from 240 to 180.
• Recharge increased from 20 seconds to 25 seconds.
• The grenade placement spread for this skill is now inverted. Grenades now leave the Engineer in a scattered spread (similar to how grenades land when thrown at maximum range) and gather to a point as they travel farther through the air.
• Added a minimum range: 50

[Poison Grenade]

• This skill now always throws 3 grenades.
• Individual grenade radius reduced from 150 to 120.
• Poison per grenade reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.
• The grenade placement spread for this skill is now inverted. Grenades now leave the Engineer in a scattered spread (similar to how grenades land when thrown at maximum range) and gather to a point as they travel farther through the air.
• Added a minimum range: 50

Tool Kit skills
[Thwack] (1-3)

• Damage reduced from 569 (1.75) to 554 (1.5).
• This skill now cleaves.

[Box of Nails] (2)

• Cast-time reduced from 1 second to ¾ second.

[Gear Shield] (4)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 1½ seconds
• Recharge: 20 seconds
• Block attacks with a gear shield. If you block three attacks, your gear shield shatters, crippling and bleeding adjacent foes with metal shrapnel.
• Block duration: 2 seconds
• Bleeding (2): 5 seconds
• Crippled: 2 seconds
• Radius: 150

Flamethrower Kit skills
[Flame Jet] (1)

• Channel time adjusted from 2¼ seconds to 1¾ seconds.
• Attacks lowered from 10 to 3.
• Damage per hit adjusted from 49 (0.15) to 126 (0.5).
• Total damage therefore adjusted from (10x): 490 (1.5) to (3x): 378 (1.5).
• Strikes per second therefore adjusted from 1 strike every 0.2 seconds to 1 strike every 0.5 seconds.
• Full auto-attack sequence cast-time therefore adjusted from 2.57 seconds to 2.07 seconds.

[Flame Blast] (2)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: ½ second
• Recharge: 6 seconds
• Fire a ball of volatile napalm that lands at target location. After 2 seconds, this ball explodes, damaging nearby foes.
• Delay: 2 seconds
• Damage: 569 (1.75)
• Damage radius: 240
• Range: 900
  • This skill’s projectile now shares its behaviour with that of Thief [Choking Gas].
  • This skill now produces a red circle.
  • This skill no longer chains into another skill.

[Air Blast] (3)

• Recharge increased from 15 seconds to 20 seconds.
• Now also counts as a Blast Finisher.

[Napalm] (4)

• Recharge reduced from 30 to 20 seconds.
• Napalm wall duration reduced from 10 to 5 seconds.
• This skill now also cripples (2 seconds) players that pass through it.

[Smoke Vent] (5)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 0
• Recharge: 30 seconds
• Vent smoke from your flamethrower, blinding adjacent foes with the smoke cloud.
• Blind (2): 3 seconds
• Cloud duration: 2 seconds
• Cloud pulse: 1 second
• Cloud radius: 180
• Combo Field: Smoke

Elixir Gun Kit skills
[Tranquilizer Dart]

• Bleeding stack duration reduced from 4 seconds to 3 seconds.

[Fumigate]

• Recharge increased from 12 to 15 seconds.
• Now removes up to one condition from the Engineer upon use.

[Acid Bomb]

• Now grants a ½ second of evasion upon use.

Elixir skills
[Elixir R]

• Cast-time reduced from ¼ second to 0.
• Now only recovers 50% endurance.
• Now breaks stun.

[Elixir U]

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• I don’t have any idea for this at the moment, but this skill is garbage (aside from the fact that it’s a stun-break, I guess) and should really be functionally changed into something that has a greater party-support aspect instead of “HAHA, I’M ATTACKING FASTER FOR 6 SECONDS.”

[Elixir S]

• Duration reduced from 3 to 2 seconds.
  • Now chains into another skill upon use: [Shoelace Tangle].

[Shoelace Tangle]

• Recharge: 5 seconds
• Cast-time: 1 second
• Tangle up your foe’s feet with wire, knocking your target down.
• Knockdown: 2 seconds
• Range: 100
  • This skill is only active while [Elixir S] is in effect.
  • This skill only hits 1 target.

Tool Belt skills
[Toss Elixir R]

• Recharge increased from 120 seconds to 150 seconds.

[Net Attack]

• Immobilized duration reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds.

[Toss Elixir C]

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: ½ second
• Recharge: 40 seconds
• Toss Elixir C, creating a field that converts conditions on allies into boons.
• Field duration: 3 seconds
• Field pulse: 1 second
• Conditions converted per second: 1
• Field radius: 180
• Combo Field: Water
• Range: 900
  • This skill uses the Guardian [Contemplation of Purity] condition-into-boon conversion table.

[Toss Elixir U]

• Recharge reduced from 60 seconds to 50 seconds.

[Incendiary Ammo] – NAME CHANGED TO – [Incendiary Round].

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: ½ second
• Recharge: 20 seconds
• Fire a round from your tool belt that burns your foe.
• Damage: 65 (0.2)
• Burning: 4 seconds
• Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile
• Range: 1000
  • This skill uses an orange-colored Elementalist [Water Blast] projectile.
  • This skill shares its projectile behaviour with that of Engineer [Surprise Shot].

[Grenade Barrage]

• Cast-time increased from ½ second to 1 second.
• Recharge increased from 30 seconds to 40 seconds.
• Added a minimum range: 50

Rifle skills
[Net Shot] (2)

• Recharge increased from 10 seconds to 12 seconds.

[Blunderbuss] (3)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: ¾ second
• Recharge: 10 seconds
• Fire a cloud of shrapnel that causes more damage the closer you are to foes.
• 600 – 400 range: Damage: 211 (0.5); Bleeding (1): 6 seconds
• 400 – 200 range: Damage: 386 (1.0); Bleeding (3): 6 seconds
• 200 – 0 range: Damage: 618 (1.6); Bleeding (5): 6 seconds
• Range: 600

[Overcharged Shot] (4)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 1¼ second
• Recharge: 15 seconds
• Fire a blast so strong that it knocks back both you and your target. You also cure immobilized, crippled and chilled. This blast’s effect is stronger based on how long you channel it.
• Damage: 386 (1.0)
• Self knock-back distance: 300
• ¼-second channel: Foe knock-back distance: 450
• Full channel: Foe launch distance: 450
• Range: 400

[Jump Shot] (5)

• Radius decreased from 240 to 180.

Pistol main-hand skills
[Poison Dart Volley] (2) – NAME CHANGED TO – [Poison Dart Bomb] (2)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: ½ second
• Recharge: 12 seconds
• Fire an arcing dart bomb from your pistol that explodes at target area, leaving behind a cloud that poisons foes.
• Explosion damage: 336 (1.0)
• Explosion poison: 3 seconds
• Explosion radius: 180
• Cloud duration: 2 seconds
• Cloud pulse:1 second
• Cloud poison per pulse: 2 seconds
• Cloud radius: 180
• Combo Field: Poison
• Minimum range: 50
• Range: 900
  • This skill shares its projectile behaviour with that of Thief [Cluster Bomb].
  • This skill chains into another skill upon completion: [Detonate Poison Bomb].

Pistol off-hand skills
[Blowtorch] (4)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 1½ seconds
• Recharge: 15 seconds
• Channel a cone of flames from your pistol. The final burst of flame from this attack burns foes and deals more damage the closer you are to your targets.
• First 2 hits damage (2x): 440 (1.0)
• Final burst at 200-600 range: Damage: 220 (0.5); Burning: 2 seconds
• Final burst at 0-200 range: Damage: 570 (0.9); Burning: 5 seconds
• Range: 600
  • Hits up to 5 foes.
  • This skill strikes 3 times total; one strike every ½ second.
  • This skill uses an orange-colored Guardian [Cleansing Flame] cone.

[Glue Shot] (5)

• Added a minimum range: 50

GRENADIER: “THE SPAMGINEER"
The typical Engineer is a walking cloud of passive trait, sigil and rune procs. Fighting an Engineer is fighting a cloud of spam that quickly comes off of cool-down and requires little planning, positioning or timing to cast. It is no big deal for an Engineer to throw the entire [Grenade Kit] either off-handedly in mid-combat or as a combat opener the skills all have very short cast-times and come off cool-down rather quickly. This kind of play-style is a symptom of Engineer game-play. There are a lot of skills use, but none of it is particularly thoughtful given short cast-times and/or easy-to-land AoEs. Moreover, it’s not just [Grenade Kit]. Most meta Engineers are very spam-centric; throwing away skills left and right with little down-time because doing so is very, very effective and skill recharges are typically rather low. What’s worse is then everything is compounded by the sheer number of passive procs that most Engineers run to constantly amplify their skill spam.

Through cast-time and recharge adjustments, some over-tuned Engineer weapon sets are brought in line to a more thoughtful play-style revolving around positioning, timing and aim.

A NOTE:
I’ve included a draft for a [Bomb Kit] functionality change. It’s drastic, and I’m not entirely sure about it. The only trouble right now is that [Bomb Kit] is just another weapon set that invites the player to press all of the buttons willynilly and will rarely punish him/her for doing so. The charge-up throw mechanic is meant to alleviate that by introducing cast-times and the ability to position bombs, but I’m just not sure that it’s the best path for [Bomb Kit]. Feel free to discuss, though, because the [Bomb Kit] as it stands is just more poor spam-centric game-play (especially after the radius buff patch) and it does need a change. I just hesitate to give it a revert and maybe some cool-down increases because that seems like a lazy fix.

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

I disagree. That’s like saying snipers or noob tubes don’t belong in FPS games.

You’ve missed the mark again. We’re not talking about FPS games. We’re talking about a specific kind of MMORPG. Please, guys, if you can’t actually do anything but grasp at straws—well, I guess I don’t mind the bumps.

Also, your analogy is pretty bad.

oZii.2864:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

Yet you have many threads with a long list of changes to those instant-cast skills and you really truly believe that they didn’t add them on purpose? I am not saying that they are imbalanced because I don’t know but I think they where put in on purpose and whatever parameters that the devs had they fit those balance parameters. So are all instant cast skill imbalanced in the context of Gw2 if so many where intentially placed in the game to begin with?

Once more, you’re not even talking about my main points regarding how GW2 should be balanced. Nobody ever seems to have anything to say about those points.

But I’ll humor you anyway: just because they’re in the game doesn’t mean that they don’t belong. Just because the devs added those skills in doesn’t mean that they aren’t flawed/overpowered.

oZii.2864:

You think that those are the only rules that govern the way they designed the game. As if you where in the meeting but that can’t possibly be the only rules that govern the game because there are several instant cast attacks in the game or the cast animation is so fast that it is almost impossible to see coming.

They’re in the game, but that doesn’t mean that they truly belong there.

oZii.2864:

This maybe have been put in place to give those skills the illusion that they are indeed extremely powerful. To also counter alot of the instant cast defenses available to professions.

Countering a bunch of instant-cast offensive abilities with more instant-cast offensive abilities is a type of combat that only functions well within the context of an MMO with a dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. Without something to mitigate that kind of damage, combat in GW2 turns into an aimbot FPS in which the victor is determined by pressing the most buttons the fastest. It’s hardly skillful, and it’s hardly engaging.

oZii.2864:

I can’t see why you and some other’s think that the balance team let anomalies into the game instead of those presumed anomalies being decided choices.

Hey, I’m still shocked that the Thief—as we know it—is even in this game at all because of how poorly it fits into the context of GW2. Then again, every MMO has to have its edgy ninja archetype. I will argue the point that the only reason that the Thief is in GW2 is because it appeals to a demographic, because it sure as rocks doesn’t functionally fit within the context of the rules that govern balanced GW2 combat.

Back to the point, though: just because those anomalies are in the game mean that they truly belong there. Your very choice of the word “anomalies” speaks volumes about the nature of instant-activation offensive skills. They simply don’t belong in GW2; the game wasn’t designed to handle them in a competitive setting.

oZii.2864:

From all your threads it looks like you want to slow the combat down and make it predictable where anything instant is bad and therefore must be changed.

I’ve made the point why they’re bad. The majority of it stems from the lack of a dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. I’m not arguing that GW2 needs a healer, but rather that there are very concrete repercussions that must resonate in skill design across all player-controlled classes.

oZii.2864:

I personally see those more instant type of spells provide the illusion of reliable attacks that you can count on.

What does this sentence even mean?

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Mbelch.9028:

I support the new title. I believe eles are a model class which the game could be balanced around.

I still do not support a great majority of your changes which, I feel, promote WoW play, for the lower end of the skill spectrum.

I do feel like some of his changes are right on, when it comes to making the game more skill vs. skill and less build vs. build.

A lot of major builds right now (warriors in general, mm necros, fresh air uberburst ele, dedicated backstab thief, spirit ranger, phantasm/pu mesmer even though it isn’t so popular anymore, and decap engie. Maybe even bunker guardian, though I don’t really know about that one) seem to be based around reducing overall player input by both sides, as well as having specific, easily engineered situations in which they excel.

What this translates to is attempting to reduce variability in combat situations by making builds that will almost always win/perform it’s function in a given situation, regardless of the skill level of either player. This happens by either making it impossible for the opponent to respond (backstab thief/hammer lockdown warrior, pu mesmer, uberburst ele, minion masters), or making that response meaningless (spirit rangers rely almost exclusively on autoattacks, making most active defense mechanisms nearly useless because all attacks are equally important. Decap engies have so much control and passive defense that it is very difficult for a single, and possibly more players to stop one. Warrior signets/stances remove large portions of counterplay). This essentially turns everything into metagaming for all but the very top level of players who are good enough to overcome these builds.

What Swagg is trying to do, as far as I can see, is reduce this type of play to promote more active combat that is usually not decided by build/class, but rather by the abilities of each player. As part of this, he is pretty much introducing counterplay to everything that doesn’t have it already, like instant hitters. This is why I like the vast majority of his ideas.

You saved me a post, P Fun Daddy. Thanks.

To be brief, the goal of most of my changes is to incorporate more aim, timing, positioning and thoughtful skill chaining into play-styles across all professions. This goal is achieved by turning otherwise auto-aimed skills into ground-targeted skills and introducing things like post-cast effect delays or long cast-times.

Aberrant.6749:

You had your chance to stop a thief from stealthing in the first place. Every way a thief stealths other than blinding powder can be countered. The thief risks a lot of ini or a utility cd to attempt to stealth. Allowing a player to prevent and then easily avoid the stealthed attack after as well just rewards their previous bad gameplay. That’s why this won’t happen despite everyone asking for it.

You can already continue channeled attack and watch for bouncing attacks if there is another target to tell you where the thief is while stealthed.

I guess all of this together isn’t enough for some people though : /

Mesmer stealth mechanics are another story though… phantasms are considered attacks (that’s why they need LOS and don’t occur on blind)… one of those attacks hitting and not causing revealed is kinda funky and goes against other stealth rules. Not saying it’s OP bla bla bla, just that it’s a different beast.

I might as well ask the question again:

Why should stealth-openers get a reprieve that the average skill in GW2 does not have? Cool-downs are there to reward opponents for good counter-play; and clutch counter-play is the name of the game in GW2 because we have no dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. Stealth should be treated on the same level as any other skill in the game. It only makes sense.

Moreover, the changes that I’m pushing for the Thief class should provide it with additional utility and survivability that would allow the class as a whole to break its desperate dependence on stealth-based damage as its primary means of winning an encounter.

Maugetarr.6823:

So basically guild wars doesn’t play exactly the way you think it should play. Have you stopped and thought that it is playing and handling those playstyles, but you’re not? That’s why you’re having to make drastic changes on all the classes, even those you consider close to perfect.

There are very clear conditions that have to be met when constructing a PvP environment in an 3rd-person MMO that employs auto-targeted attacks but also forgoes a dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. This isn’t about what anyone wants; this is about what it takes to make a balanced and engaging MMO combat system without dedicating an entire player class to actively manage the party’s red bars.

In any case, you’re not attempting to argue any of the points that I’ve made.

Updates to shortbow [Poison Volley] and longbow [Rapid Fire].

Cynz.9437:

you still didn’ answer what are those rules you are talking about and what are those “fundamental aspects”… please, enlighten me

1. What is a dedicated healer within the context of an MMORPG?

• A dedicated healer is a mechanic that constantly extends the effective HP of a single target or sometimes many targets simultaneously. This single mechanic not only almost instantly organizes a party composition but also dictates how that party fights in battle.
• The healer/damage mitigation class mechanic is an unfair mechanic because of how effective it can be at keeping players alive. To counter this, DPS classes and spike-damage classes come into existence.
• With the presence of a healer/damage-mitigation class as an unfair mechanic, the assassination/debuff class(es) make headway in game-play as an equally unfair counter-mechanic by delivering huge amounts of damage/debuffs/CC in short periods of time in order to balance combat out so players don’t just end up living forever.

2. Guild Wars 2 has no dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. With this comes three crucial points to keep in mind when designing the game:

• Every profession must be granted some form of innate self-defense mechanic in order to mitigate incoming damage. We have that in the form of healing skills and the invulnerability frames granted by the dodge mechanic. Good positioning on the battlefield is also a defensive mechanic available to every class, but it’s less of an implied mechanic than the other two because it’s useful primarily for ranged classes and isn’t necessarily activated by pressing a button.
• Without a dedicated healer/damage mitigation class to actively counter unfair offensive mechanics such as instant-activation or poorly cued damage, all high damage sources or potentially game-changing CC in GW2 should therefore always be well-cued in order to give the opponent an opportunity to counter-play. Without proper counter-play windows, the game is reduced to “Whoever presses the most buttons the fastest wins.”
• In addition to the minimal profession-wide damage mitigation abilities, each profession must have additional, clutch manners of mitigating incoming damage. The ways in which each profession mitigates incoming damage is an opportunity to further define its play-style.

3. Guild Wars 2 is a game that was designed to have players read their opponent’s skill cues as a means of providing counter-play windows in which a player could dodge, block, blind or quickly reposition in order to avoid damage. To this effect, ANet has designed several manners of reading an opponent’s skills such as:

• Post-cast effect delays
• Red circles
• Projectiles that can be blocked, reflected or destroyed
• On-caster visual cues
• Long cast-times
• Gap-closer skills that requires the player to run or leap to a target/target area

However, despite these various cues and their important nature in governing balance, there are a many slew of skills in GW2 that forego 2 or more of the above balancing principles. These skills should be looked at critically and either nerfed or functionally changed in order to bring them into line with how combat should appear in-game. Giving certain weapon sets or play-styles free hits for certain skill usage in a game where the “holy trinity” is absent is asking for trouble.

And that’s basically it. Because there’s no “Holy Trinity,” the vast majority of the Thief play-style as well as the play-styles of many other professions just simply don’t belong in Guild Wars 2 because the way that they inflict damage typically forgoes a lot of the basic principles that govern balanced combat in GW2. The game was functionally not designed to handle those kinds of play-styles. That’s why a lot of these changes are so drastic.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Nah I’m just still kittened at him because he came on to the ele forums claiming that elementalists are overpowered a bit back and started yelling about justice, in addition to saying that everyone thinking that they were underpowered was the result of a conspiracy.
My post was more of a joke than anything else.

Some aspects of Elementalist are indeed very overpowered, though.

Swagger.1459:

swag, you’re way out of reality with the majority of your “suggestions” for this game. for example, you are trying to make a case against the profession wide design and use of auto attack, but seem to target the ranger profession as the only one that is “spammy”.

Looking at all of the Ranger’s offensive weapon skills in a line up, we see that only one sixth of them (6/36) have a cast-time at or above 1 second (I’m not counting [Counterattack] because it’s a block skill); and most of the skills at that below that threshold have cast-times of 1/2 second or less (especially the ones that activate from range). Having the vast majority of your skills activate very fast drastically reduces the amount of viable clutch counter-play options and it also takes a lot of the thinking out of when or where to use a skill because the vast majority of them pose no risk to the user for activating them. A 1/2 or 1/4 second cast-time is pittance. Anyone can get away with that. By making all of one’s attacks skills with such short cast-times, it sets the the weapon-set on a path to skill spam. Then, with the addition of passive, RNG, instant-activation procs, the entire system turns into a stream of poorly defined attacks that provides little clutch counter-play opportunities for an opponent. In a game without a dedicated healer, this is not an ideal design.

Swagger.1459:

You want to increase cool downs to 15+ seconds on most other attacks, but that only serves to make players even more reliant on using auto attack.

This is actually where I may have gone a little overboard. I’m actually looking at addressing a few key skill changes that do in fact go too far on the recharge.

Swagger.1459:

Might as well remove auto attack completely, make all attacks have a 5 second charge up with a 15 second cool down that forces the player to stand still and cast, and a floating text above the enemies head with the name of the attack that is being cast…

Now you’re the one going overboard. One of this game’s most defining features is its cast-on-the-go design for most of its skills. I would never dream of taking that away.

Even so, this game would indeed be a lot better if auto-attacks weren’t actual 1 skills; but rather universal, low-damage attacks made with the weapon. However, it’s far too late for that.

Swagger.1459:

while you may identify with a couple of real issues plaguing the meta, you have 0% clue as to what would be healthy changes for professions and combat in this game. At this point, I’m starting to think that these threads are just to annoy players by spamming the profession balancing forums with this stuff.

I’ve said it before, but due to the nature of GW2 (primarily stemming from its lack of a dedicated healer class), there is a very simple set of rules that govern how combat is balanced. It’s actually a much simpler design than a game that would have a dedicated healer. All of my changes are based around those simple ideas. If you want, I could repost them for you, but until then I’ll continue to take this site’s feedback in order to craft and recraft my suggestions.

law.9410:

OP I find it hard to take you seriously when you use statements like “spam to win” and “useless pets”. Do you even play ranger? Their a lot of tricks you learn after a while like deselecting your target before casting fear or cc’ing your opponent before activating a pet skill to ensure it hits.

Using CC to make sure that an attack lands is not a “trick;” it’s a very common strategy across all professions. Deselecting a target in order to amplify certain attacks is also not something that only the Ranger does.

law.9410:

And If you’ve ever fought a good thief or mesmer you’ll learn how unspammy the longbow is. You can’t miss any HSs or PBS or you’re dead…

It’s hard to miss them given their cast-times.

law.9410:

I like to cast PBS right after my wolf’s fear to chain cc them.

Again, this is just basic combat strategy. Chaining skills together to improve a sustained assault’s overall effectiveness is not something special.

law.9410:

HS is very useful to ensure an un-interupted heal and to activate my elite skill.

Healing and elite skill cast-times are supposed to be moments during which the player is vulnerable. This forces the user to think a few steps ahead before the actual moment when he/she needs to pop the healing. Thinking ahead ensure the player has a play to reposition to a safe spot in order to buy time for healing or elite activation. [Hunter’s Shot]‘s stealth mechanic takes this thought out of the equation. It’s not healthy for game-play.

Moreover, a 25% up-time on Stealth is relatively overpowered to begin with.

Furthermore, the Ranger (aside from getting off a free heal or elite; examples which I’ve already discussed are unhealthy for the game) doesn’t really have too many options with which to really take advantage of 3 seconds of stealth. It’s a shoe-horned mechanic that doesn’t do much for the Ranger aside from eat up the number 3 slot on longbow which could be used for something that could deliver more impact with a better cue.

To finish, additional CC on the longbow would function just the same as a means to get off a heal or elite except that the new [Hunter’s Shot] would be much better telegraphed and have a more visceral effect on the enemy. Moreover, since it would be a targeted pull, the new [Hunter’s Shot] could be an enormous asset to team-play provided that the Ranger used the skill chain properly and the opponent doesn’t have stability.

Thighum.7295:

Just because people keep repeating that they want everything under the sun to reveal thieves doesn’t mean it is a good idea.

Your proposed change would destroy d/x thieves. Almost ALL of our damage is in our stealth skill.

Yes, and it’s a poor design that encourages front-loading extreme damage into a poorly cued, very fast attack that provides for little counter-play on the part of the opponent. I’ve already made a thread that works to shift Thief damage across its current skills and even additional skills paired with the addition of CC and utility by means of new skills and skill functionality changes.

The entire class needs a rework to make it more viable as a constant, balanced contributor to combat instead of someone that just pops into a fight instantly to deal absurd damage before either earning a free kill or dying like a dog.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Hey swagg.
Agree to all but the sigil of battle nerf. Its not that op.
Wont the upcoming sigil update include sigils of the same type on different sets to share a cd? Thinking they will.

Yes, but even so, getting 3 stacks of might for 20 seconds (base without boon duration) every 9 seconds is, ehhhh, it’s just something very worrisome given that we’ll be getting double sigils on two-handed weapons (not a great idea to be honest). Since a lot of weapons are going to get double sigils now, it’s not hard to imagine a vast number of players just running about with 6 extra stacks of might in mid-combat. This kind of power creep is extremely dangerous in a game that’s already heavily over-tuned when it comes to poorly cued spike damage.

While I’m doing my best to address the issues of balanced damage across every profession, it’d still be dangerous to underestimate the potential popularity of sigil of battle in the double-sigil for two-handed weapons update and what a free, passive +210 power/condition damage for a lot more players would do to combat in general.

The nerf to Sigil of Battle is to avoid excessive power creep.

Aveneo.2068:

Regarding balance, what is your current take on Spirit Weapons and their traits. Personally I believe ANet should have never made them mortal as even in their immortal state it was difficult at best to create an effective means of utilizing them without completely gimping oneself (and believe me, I tried).

So what would you suggest on making Spirit Weapons more viable?

Given their nature in GW1, I personally saw Spirit Weapons as a weapon-skill overlay profession mechanic (something similar to Engineer weapon kits) rather than a tack-on AI NPC utility skill. It’s a real shame what they actually are in GW2. Fixing them would require A LOT of work maybe to the point of making them similar to destructible Engineer Kits that the Guardian must summon or something. The fact of the matter is, giving up a Guardian utility slot for a destructible NPC with very narrow utility is not worth it. They need more skills in order to be something worth taking.

Updates to focus and a few number tweaks on scepter.

Updates to [Hunter’s Shot] and axe skills.

Sarrs.4831:

Swagg.9236:

Sarrs.4831:

What’s wrong with the auto-attack? IMHO it’s in a reasonable place and gives the weapon a role, but I’m not really a ranger, so I can’t really tell.

Having a “role” based on auto-attacking is a terrible design that promotes spammy, throwaway skill game-play that doesn’t provide opponents a clear sense of when to attempt counter-play maneuvers.

Except that LB 1’s core mechanic offers clear incentives for when and where to use it, how to neuter its output, and is complemented by the other skills on the weapon. It’s probably the most legible and most interesting Ranger weapon with this in mind.

That doesn’t change the fact that its damage is very high for an auto-attack. The function of an auto-attack should be as a lull in combat or maybe possibly as a means to prime another skill’s attack (although we really see none of that in GW2 unfortunately); the auto-attack should not be the primary source of a weapon-set’s damage. Due to the auto-attack’s nature as a skill that can constantly be spammed, making it into the apex source of DPS on a weapon-set drastically narrows the window for clutch counter-play on part of the opponent. In the case of a ranged auto-attack—since the auto-attack doesn’t stop—it pretty much limits the counter-play options to CC chaining the user, projectile reflection, line of sight, or an extended block/invulnerability. None of those types of responses are particularly engaging for either the auto-attacker or the opponent nor do such defensive responses (outside of line of sight) have short enough cool-downs that can compete against the auto-attack’s pressure.

The best option would be to just readjust the damage and funnel the subtracted damage into other skills. I’ve been thinking of making a chain skill for [Rapid Fire] in order to fill the void left by a [Long Range Shot] damage nerf.

Sarrs.4831:

What’s wrong with the auto-attack? IMHO it’s in a reasonable place and gives the weapon a role, but I’m not really a ranger, so I can’t really tell.

Having a “role” based on auto-attacking is a terrible design that promotes spammy, throwaway skill game-play that doesn’t provide opponents a clear sense of when to attempt counter-play maneuvers.

Tetsuyja.7805:

@ blind: u don’t hit something – no revealed.
@ evade: u don’t hit something – no revealed.
@ obstructed: u don’t have the permission to hit – no revealed. other words: it’s nice to know that the enemy is obstructed but anet also can leave it away and doesn’t display the “obstructed” message.
@ invurnerable: u hit target – no revealed. Why?!? You are invulnerable – who cares about a thief/mesmer who tries to hit you?!? I will agree that invulnerable gives revealed if invulnerable gets an visual debuff for its duration.

Why should stealth-openers get a reprieve that the average skill in GW2 does not have? Cool-downs are there to reward opponent’s for good counter-play; and clutch counter-play is the name of the game in GW2 because we have no dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. Stealth should be treated on the same level as any other skill in the game. It only makes sense.

Additions made to the first page.

I’ve taken a look at a lot of suggestions made throughout the course of this thread. A lot of the suggestions that I read revolved around simple damage and cool-down adjustments. I’ll firmly defend that Guardian damage is in a pretty good spot at the moment, but I made a few concessions and even added a few more functionalities to shield off-hand to give the set a better control feel.

A 50-range knock-back is more like forcing the opponent to stop in their tracks for just a moment which could either serve as an interrupt or to buy a Guardian’s allies a second of time to pull something off.

I may make a few more additions to the newest changes to this thread as time goes on, but for now, I just wanted to put those up.

Sarrs.4831:

Swagg.9236:

Black Box.9312:

Retaliation is a key part of a bunker guardian’s potential. Getting rid of it would break a key component of the class, which means it’s not going to go away.

Retaliation should just stack in intensity. It makes it balanced in 1v1s and it removes its ability to burn down an entire group of players’ HP simultaneously.

This would very seriously change WvW. It’s already possible for an engineer to spike himself to death with grenades or flamethrower in large scale encounters.

As rude as this sounds: I wish that I could care more about that. Let’s be honest here: WvW is by far the most imbalanced game-mode in GW2. WvW deserves and should have no complaint against any balance-related changes that originate from sPvP. The sheer numbers of players combined with the inflated player stats in WvW will always off-set even large changes made for the sake of sPvP. If anything, big changes would breathe new life into typical WvW combat by affecting small-scale battles as well as perhaps even influencing the writhing, stability-bathed, stealth-opener mess that is large scale WvW battles. Imagine if large scale WvW battles had to actually employ organized groups and timed/staggered charges due to stability and retaliation limitations instead of being able to just cloak everyone in everything, ball up and run in circles at enemies.

Sarrs.4831:

Not to say it’s not a good idea, it would certainly be an interesting change and could offer them more room to make interesting abilities (block->retal with intensity could make spamming against a block very fun), but it would be a very big change.

It wouldn’t stack in intensity; it would simply stack in charges.

Stability should do the same thing as well.

Protection would also be far more interesting if it stacked in intensity (1% damage reduction for every stack). If protection stacked in intensity, it wouldn’t be out of the question to add it as a type of finisher bonus (3 stacks or something). Instead, we just get “Press button, receive 33% damage reduction.” Dunno, though. Protection being a static 33% damage reduction is really a symptom of this game not having any viable way of reducing damage. In order to protect one’s self from a lot of the burst nonsense in this game, you sort of need a flat 33% damage reduction—as brain dead as such a boon really is at its core.

I’m still baffled by the static nature of many boons that would clearly be more balanced if they stacked in static charges instead of duration.

Posting because of second page bug.

Sir Morgan Malory.2069:

I think ranger dps is better than the average in most situations, situations where you can make use of your pets dps. Rangers aren’t suppose to be the spike damage class. Warriors, thieves and mesmers are for spike. Rangers pressure damage is in a good place right now. There biggest weakness is that there use in a group. There support and control ability are none-existant.

Alright.

Do you have any suggestions to fix that?

How about [Hunter’s Shot]? [Hunter’s Shot] is a garbage skill if I’ve ever seen one and a functionality change for that slot it is easily the most obvious key to making longbow into a more competitive weapon. That’s currently my task at hand for the Ranger right now.

Black Box.9312:

Retaliation is a key part of a bunker guardian’s potential. Getting rid of it would break a key component of the class, which means it’s not going to go away.

Retaliation should just stack in intensity. It makes it balanced in 1v1s and it removes its ability to burn down an entire group of players’ HP simultaneously.

Mightymealworm.8409:

Shelter has risk, its a very bad heal if timed incorrectly.

Every heal is bad if timed incorrectly.

Mightymealworm.8409:

It just happens to be difficult to time it poorly due to current guardian meta builds.

What about a Guardian meta build actually makes “timing” [Shelter] poorly difficult to do? Do you even have an actual explanation for this sentence?

Cynz.9437:

Everything you said.

I really can’t talk to you. I mean, I want to, but you just keep going off topic and making up “points” that have no bearing on the fundamental aspects of what makes for balanced GW2 combat.

That’s all I’m arguing, man. It’s very simple. There are many mechanics that appear in GW2 in order to make combat balanced for a player and his/her opponent. The Thief forgoes most of those balancing mechanics and therefore should be fixed.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Sorry to tell you this, Swagg, but Burnfall agrees with your changes.
I think that means you need to consider a few more buffs in your changes to thief.

If you’ve got an issue with my ideas, you come after me. Don’t down-talk someone else because of how that person feels about what I say—good or bad.

insanemaniac.2456:

i dont think “obstructed” or “out of range” warrant revealed. i think the rest can have valid justifications, tho i think id prefer not attaching it to evade (but thats kind of arbitrary). obstructed and out of range mean the attack didnt connect, where the rest mean the attack did connect and was mitigated in some way.

No player should be allowed to spam skills from stealth.

Line of Sight is a powerful and valid tool for mitigating damage in this game; the same goes for putting distance between one’s self and an attacking opponent. If Player A maneuvers out of the stealthed and attacking Player B’s range or puts an object between himself and Player B, and then Player B continues to attack from stealth, that should be Player A’s victory.

Cynz.9437:

5k extra HP on a thief is a joke as there is no back up with good heals or high protection rate like on guards. Weakness against condi is not adressed either.

Evades, CC and blind remain scattered throughout Thief weapon sets. “I’m weak against conditions” isn’t a valid argument. There are plenty of specs across professions that make a player susceptible to condition damage.

Cynz.9437:

Besides staggered is absolutely useless vs classes that don’t rely on protection so overall it will be huge nerf for thieves vs those classes…

A poor argument. It’s not a nerf at all. It simply breaks even against classes that don’t rely on protection.

Cynz.9437:

You are also wrong by adding CDs to spells, ppl say it is awesome to have initiative but it is actually a punishment to a thief.

Spamming skills is the most broken mechanic in the game because it undermines timed dodges by allowing the Thief to continually spam the powerful attacks over and over again. When there aren’t any cool-downs, it never provides an opponent a keen sense of when to save or expend dodges or damage mitigation skills. This goes against a fundamental rule that governs balanced GW2 combat.

Cynz.9437:

As i told you so many times before, if i used initiative on combo + few attacks i won’t have enough ini for anything meaningfull for a while even if i switch weapons, compare it to any other class that can hit 1 2 3 4 5 switch weapon and go 1 2 3 4 5 again. You CD proporsal just shows that you have no idea about initiative and ini managment on a class and how it works in reality.

You’re thinking in a vacuum again. I’m looking at ways of adding more individual skill definition across the all professions; not just for Thieves. It’s something that every class needs.

And you’ve gotta be joking anyway. “Ini management on a class.” I suppose by that you mean “playing within the constraints of a resource management mechanic for any given class in a game.” Playing anything in GW1 was leagues beyond anything that Thieves have to worry about in GW2 when it comes to resource management.

Cynz.9437:

The class itself is already pretty much a bottom feeder (after eles)….they are only good at one role “roamer” and that’s it…your changes would make the class even less diserable and very very clunky…so no, ty.

Thief needs these changes to fall into line with how balanced combat should appear in Guild Wars 2. It’s a class founded on imbalances; a class that breaks all of the rules over and over again because it is so poorly designed.

" your changes would make the class even less desirable and very very clunky" is a sentence without any visceral substance. “Less desirable” is your subjective opinion that is also completely separate from the understanding of the mechanics that balance GW2 combat. Moreover, “very very clunky” is probably how you say “I’m not OK with not being able to instantly teleport to everyone anymore.” Tough rocks, bucko. Spammable, no-cue/unblockable direct-to-target ranged teleports are overpowered gap-closers that simultaneously break several rules that govern balanced GW2 combat. Changes must be made to make the class fair.

Cynz.9437:

P.S. btw, OP stated before that he doesn’t play a thief nor he needs to play a thief to make balance suggestions. I do believe that you need to play thief in competitive pvp and in pve (hard content) for extended period of time to be able to make any meaningfull suggestions.

You’re probably thinking of a discussion from quite some time ago; things change but assumptions are always a poor basis for an arugment. And if you’re going to make sub-par ad hominem arguments anyway, you can go ahead.

My main points about what makes combat balanced in GW2 remain valid. Because Thief clearly violates those rules on many occasions, that makes my analysis of the Thief being inherently broken also valid. My changes for the Thief follow those simple rules that govern balanced combat in GW2, so they too remain valid points if not necessarily the only solution to the problem of the Thief’s rule-breaking.

So you can try to trash my name all you want, but you will never be able to counter the fundamental rules that govern how combat should work in this game.

TL;DR
You’re too accustomed to playing with a broken class that employs unfair mechanics. Well, put on your big boy pants because we’re going to have to fix it in order to save GW2.

Updates to scepter (Phoenix; a few number tweaks), off-hand dagger (Earthquake), signet utility passives, [Lightning Flash] damage, and maybe a few others. It’s a little late and I may have forgotten to mention a few. Going to bed.

Reserved for future posts.

Sigils
Sigil of Air

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Increase your speed when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
• Minor swiftness: 2 seconds
• Major super speed: ½ second
• Superior super speed: 1 second
• Cool-down: 9 seconds

Minor Sigil of Fire

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Create a fire blast at your location when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
• Damage: 65 (0.3)
• Damage radius: 180
• Cool-down: 14 seconds

Major of Sigil of Fire

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Create a fire blast at your location when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
• Damage: 101 (0.3)
• Damage radius: 180
• Cool-down: 14 seconds

Superior Sigil of Fire

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Create a fire blast at your location when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
• Damage: 101 (0.3)
• Damage radius: 180
• Combo Finisher: Blast
• Cool-down: 14 seconds

Sigil of Leeching

• Major leech heal reduced from (current?) to 370 (0.1).
• Major leech damage reduced from (current?) to 250 (0.0).
• Superior leech heal reduced from 975 (0.0) to 740 (0.1).
• Superior leech damage reduced from 974 (0.0) to 500 (0.0).
  • The leech damage still ignores armor and stats.

Sigil of Battle

• Cool-down increased from 9 seconds to 19 seconds.

Sigil of Intelligence

• Now grants 1½ seconds of fury on weapon swap.

Runes
[Superior rune of the Nightmare] (6/6)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• You inflict torment when you disable a foe.
• Torment (2): 5 seconds
• Cool-down: 20 seconds

[Superior Rune of Lyssa] (6/6)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• When you use an elite skill, you convert up to 5 conditions on you into boons.
• Cool-down: 60 seconds
  • This skill uses the Necromancer [Well of Power] condition-to-boon conversion table.

[Superior Rune of the Air] (6/6)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• When you gain swiftness, you cure yourself of crippled, chilled and immobilized.
• Cool-down: 45 seconds
  • This proc only goes into cool-down if it removes crippled, chilled or immobilized.

[Major Rune of the Baelfire] (4/4)

• Vigor duration reduced from 10 seconds to 5 seconds.
• Chance to proc increased from 3% to 5%.

[Superior Rune of the Baelfire] (4/6)

• Vigor duration reduced from 10 seconds to 5 seconds.
• Chance to proc increased from 5% to 30%.

[Superior Rune of the Baelfire] (6/6)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Whenever you strike a foe that is suffering from burning, you gain might and vigor.
• Might (3): 15 seconds
• Vigor: 5 seconds
• Cool-down: 30 seconds

Functionality change to stealth for all professions

• If a player attacks while in stealth, but “misses” an attack due to being out of range, blinded, blocked, evaded, obstructed, or if they struck an invulnerable target, that player gains the revealed debuff for 4 seconds.

Functionality change to immobilize

• Immobilized no longer stacks in duration; if an immobilized player is immobilized again, the latter instance of immobilize will simply overwrite the former.

Functionality change to the Elite Skill slot

• Players can now slot utility skills into the elite skill slot. A player may not slot more than 3 of a single kind of utility skill sub-type at a time (no 4 Weapon Kits at a time, no 4 Shouts at a time, no 4 Traps at a time, etc.); healing skills and elite skills are exempt from this tally.

This is a supplement thread to my ongoing series of individual profession-based balance threads. This thread in particular is aimed at addressing various gear and/or mechanic-related imbalances independent from any specific profession.

Would you mind if I folded a few of these ideas into my thread on Ranger balance? I can give you credit for the inspiration if you want.

Some additions: a few signet updates and an update to [Lightning Reflexes].

A few tweaks to axe main-hand, scepter and [Spectral Walk].

Mikau.6920:

The problem isn’t Shelter, but other the healing skills. Warriors have tons of way to tank full damage – 1 from shield, 1 from a healing skill (that is 100x more powerful than Shelter, and under used becouse the healing signet is OP) and 1 utility skill.

Please don’t bring [Healing Signet] or anything else into this discussion. You’re getting off point. Even though [Healing Signet] (bunker Warrior in general) is indeed overpowered, it has nothing to do with what we’re talking about here.

Mikau.6920:

The problem with the other healing skills are: Healing Breeze – It is just useless, too much CD considering its underwhelming effect and Litany of Wrath only (sort of) work if is fully traited. The Signet of Resolve problem is the CD that should be 35 sec and should have better synergy with traits (they should buff Perfect Inscriptions to 50% efficiency ) and other signets (the Signet of Mercy active is useless and the Signet of Wrath pasive is useless).

I’m working to address the issues of the other healing skills right now. There have been a couple of good ideas suggested already and other good points made regarding what I’ve already suggested. I’m hopefully going to work on making some updates to this thread today.

Mikau.6920:

The Shelter is 100% OK. You have a 20 sec CD heal for +10 sec CD and 2 sec of block.

[Shelter] is not fine because as a skill it offers virtually no risk to the user for its activation while it can give an immense return through multiple blocks as well as thousands of health. It’s overpowered, but it can’t necessarily be helped right now because the game is so overtuned and imbalanced; Guardians need it to survive. Hopefully [Shelter] can receive the nerf that it deserves once we work to tone down the broken parts of this game.

MonMalthias.4763:

Just going through the Scepter changes again; noticed that the Ice Shards Coefficient has not been changed despite 3 projectiles being reduced to 1. If kept at 0.55, this would be a 3-fold nerf to Scepter Water 1’s autoattack and would indirectly discourage staying in Water for any longer than necessary – even more so than right now. Your Shatterstone changes may not even be enough.

I’m afraid of making an powerful auto-attack. The only other idea that I could maybe think of off the top of my head would be to make a replica [Fireball] for [Ice Spear] because [Fireball] is a very powerful, but mostly balanced auto-attack given its projectile behaviour and overall attack speed. Something like that would give a scepter Elementalist incentive to attack in water attunement because their auto-attack would deal high damage and have an AoE effect.

MonMalthias.4763:

I’ve also mentioned before the dangers of putting multiple conditions on a single weapon skill. For Shatterstone, you’ve made its recharge 2 seconds yet made it inflict 2 conditions that stack in Intensity. Yes, Condition Elementalist is a joke build right now, but this would be the Dhuumfire equivalent skill for Elementalist with all the negative repercussions it brings. 1 Signet of Earth and/or Glyph of Elemental Power coupled with Torment on Shatterstone would be the equivalent of Necromancer’s Signet of Spite.

Fair points. I guess I overestimated it.

MonMalthias.4763:

Keep it simple – make Shatterstone first pulse inflict 2 stacks of Vulnerability, second pulse 1 second Chill, and if after that the opponent still has yet to move out of it – have it inflict the full 3 extra stacks of Vulnerability for maximum 5 stacks.

I’M SO SCARED OF MAKING A SHORT CAST-TIME/RECHARGE SKILL INFLICT CHILL.

More importantly, though, I feel that Elementalist needs to have its constant DPS abilities preserved across weapon sets. Making [Shatterstone] innately inflict chill would REQUIRE a cast-time increase (something like 8 or 10 seconds) and that would compromise water attunement’s (and thereby scepter’s) overall DPS. This is the reason why I split the skill into two parts with a 4-second chill on an appropriate recharge. I was actually thinking of adjusting the recharge to 4 seconds, just to give the Elementalist a reason to auto-attack once or twice in between [Shatterstone]s while in water attunement as well as a buffer for the chain skill so that the Elementalist could maybe delay its use a bit instead of being forced to double-tap it upon casting [Shatterstone] due to the time constraint.

MonMalthias.4763:

Remove Torment and – if you must add Torment, put it on Rock Barrier -> Hurl over Cripple to keep Fire and Earth the thematic Attunements for Condition application, Water and Air for snares and CC. As it was in GW1, so it should be.

If we want to go the flavor route, Earth staff is a very CC-heavy weapon set, so I think that instead of trying to adhere to flavor, rather the main goal here should be to simply give the Elementalist scepter more access to CC across the board as a means of boosting its overall survivability.

Simply removing torment might be the best option. I’m not sure where I got that idea in the first place.

MonMalthias.4763:

Also, no mention of Phoenix despite its overloaded utility and role in S/x Fresh air burst builds for the triple hit?

I increased the cast-time from 1/4 second to 1/2 second and said that the audio cue should play the instant that the player begins casting the skill. I did originally have the cast-time increased to 3/4 seconds, but after playing with [Phoenix] and seeing other players use it, I think that a 3/4 second cast-time would cripple it when used from range (where it is most balanced) and force the skill to be some sort of PBAoE super spike in melee range (where it is most broken due to a lack of a strong cue) similar to [Arcing Arrow] or [Cluster Bomb]. I think simply doubling the very short cast-time and playing the audio clip instantly on cast activation would help clean that skill up enough for combat.