Guild Wars 2

Why must we have a caste system in WvW? Commanders are being treated like gods in WvW simply because of their tag.

One of the many goals of WvW should be to allow a few average players to work together to accomplish something; whether it be defending, attacking, upgrading, or whatever. However, the trend seems to be that most new players and many of the old players are reluctant to commit to anything without a commander telling them what to do. This is a bad idea for many reasons, but primarily because it diminishes the enjoyment of the average player.

We all come from different backgrounds and we all choose to play this game in our own way. Admittedly, some people like to lead and some people like to follow, but that choice should never be forced on anyone. Commanders are currently a status symbol in the game that allows them to spam team/map chat and give orders without opposition. These actions often drown out the average player. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone tell an average player to stop using team chat so the commander can speak, it’s insulting and disrespectful. We both paid our 60 dollars for this game and we both have a right to play.

The bottom line is that commanders should not be in the game in their current form. The original goal of ArenaNet may have been for commanders to be a mobile rally point and a squad creator but what has been implemented is nothing close to that. Only a few commanders actually take the time to form squads and instead spam team chat, and the function of the rally point has simply been reduced to the barbaric rhetoric “EVERYONE ON MY TAG NOW!!”.

We are tired of being reduced to a pawn in a child’s toy army. ArenaNet, I beg you to address this and give us a system that treats everyone as equals.

Raf.1078:

For pity’s sake ANet, can’t you do something about this? I don’t know how many times yesterday Commanders found their ability to communicate on map & team suppressed…so much so that they were asking in voice for us to relay their requests to the team.

If nothing else, how about instituting a Commander Only toolbox of Chat macros that could go out to either team, map, squad or whatever combo of chats? Maybe something like :

“insert commander name here” Go to Citadel…or Hold…or On Me…or whatever.

Not to mention that trying to type and fight has its own issues.

So you think commanders should have the right to spam chat more often then non-commanders? Are commanders more important then non-commanders? Is the $60 I paid for the game of less value then the $60 you paid for your copy?

For pity’s sake, learn how to use squad chat.

Look it up online ahead of time:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Food

Actually… the real problem is people who undercut by more than 1c. If everyone undercut by only 1c the profit margins would be fine.

100g is not a lot of money. When I see a blue tag I don’t say “Gee, that guy really cares about WvW”, I say “Gee, that idiot paid 100g for something that adds zero benefit to WvW”

Lets remove the commander tag completely and send everyone their 100g back. When ArenaNet adds in ranks in the March update we’ll have an entirely new system by which to judge a player’s experience in WvW.

Eclipses.7152:

1. Commander is an absolute mess

The implementation of the Commander mechanic is an absolute mess. So let’s get this straight – players who grinded PvE or paid cash for gems > gold (as being an all out WvW participant wouldn’t net you that type of wealth at all) pay 100g and get to lord over other players in WvW? This is ridiculous. I have seen commanders make the absolute kittentiest calls only to get rebuffed when calling them out, because “they’re Commanders.”

Back in beta they were called on over and over again to change this mechanic: require badges instead, or kills, or tower captures – ANYTHING that was actually related to WvW and showed you had experience. We were rebuffed and instead we have a system that discourages the devs to create a guild raid system, encourages inexperienced individuals to lead WvW, encourages zerging and hobbles tactical play and engenders an attitude of petulance that simply because you have a blue icon – you know what’s best.

The WvW devs should honestly be ashamed that Commander is in the game the way that it is right now.

I agree with this point 1000%. The Commander tag is creating a class system in WvW that doesn’t need to be there. The best experiences I have had in my 1000+ hours of WvW have been when there was NO commander in zone and everyone had to work together as EQUALS. I say remove the commander tag completely and give everyone their 100 gold back.

Sororita.3465:

Or should the title be GoM vs DH & HoD

Seriously, why would you start off a weekly thread like that?

Habib Loew.6239:

…we have decided not to reset the WvW ratings at this time.

So the weekly reset is happening tomorrow using the old formula and the current ratings?

Catisa.6507:

Tekyn.5376:

… such that everyone on your server would already know who you are before you even get the tag.

So another popularity contest?

No, let me rephrase what I was suggesting for you:

“If in a proposed new system the commander tag still exists it needs to be obtained through vast amounts of WvW such that everyone on your server would already know who you are before you even get the tag.”

In other words, leading up to the acquisition of the tag you would have to be WvW’ing so much that everyone on your server would already recognize you.

-

But now this is a moot point because they announced today that they will be adding ranks. Hopefully this will get rid of credit card commanders with their 1000 achievement points and bloated egos.

faztazkitten.7293:

Let me get this straight… Your asking if one or two of our skills ALWAYS crit? NO! Thats what crit chance is for? It only crits depending on your crit chance. And FYI that goes for all classes in GW2. I strongly suggest going to the GW2 Wiki and familiarizing yourself with all the stats. I.E. Power, precision, critical dmg… Etc.

Actually, you’re wrong. Take your own advice and read the wiki. As I said above once already, Arcane Blast ALWAYS crits.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Blast

-

Again, thanks to the other folks in the thread who are not trolling. Lots of interesting thief strategy here to learn from.

I say with the upcoming addition of ranks to WvW they remove the commander tag completely from public view! That means the only way you see the icon is if you are already in the squad.

Super excited to see what Anet has come up with!! finally some WvW love

Here’s a better idea… remove the commander tag and implement a rank system based off of a player’s experience in WvW. Any system based around the commander tag is flawed because the tag is obtained with 100g, which is nothing nowadays. If in a proposed new system the commander tag still exists it needs to be obtained through vast amounts of WvW such that everyone on your server would already know who you are before you even get the tag.

Kiexcolo.2416:

The problem is the commander might actually just be a random person… or worse… but not to say this isn’t a good idea. The thing is they have to first fix how a commander rank can be obtained.

Exactly right. Until they fix how commander tags are obtained all this is for nothing. Being a commander does not inherently make anyone better at wvw, nor does it make what they say in map chat any more important.

KyoHanakaze.8145:

For all the GoM complaining about being hit by both servers at once, we’re just trying to maintain second place. The only way we can do that is by focusing on GoM while DH just steamrolls the both of us. It’s nothing personal. We love you guys.

You do know that 2nd place doesn’t matter this week right? With the tiers being reset it is unlikely DH/GoM/HoD will be matched up again next week.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Coming-Soon-WvW-Rating-Reset

As of this post HoD is projected to be ranked 14th in tier 5, GoM ranked 16th in tier 6, and DH ranked 4 in tier 2.

http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA

Essentially what you’re fighting for is your place in the new tiers. The more points you get the higher starting tier you will be placed in.

TogoChubb.3984:

PD enjoying the GOM hospitality of GOM east keep. Great fights this weekend guys!

LOL, those are actually pretty funny pics. Good game DH!

Sororita.3465:

Lightsbane.9012:

this is seriously getting boring. a server that can’t defend against a server with more people

Join GoM, we get to fight 2 servers at once.

He is on GoM, Kormak has been a veteran WvW’er for many months now.

Bllade.1029:

I wasn’t able to get last match stats either for GoM/DH/HoD, who won that match last week?

Last match was:

Darkhaven – 254 671
Henge of Denravi – 170 016
Gates of Madness – 187 523

GoM moved back into 2nd, thus becoming blue.

As of this post it looks like GoM is headed down to rank 23, DH headed up to rank 2, and HoD up to rank 13. (source: http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA)

Man, this is going to be a crazy week!

Zeoli.3402:

I lol’ed.

but yeh GC vs GC nothing to see here… they barely last a round… not interesting….

QQing about a GC Thief two shotting you (if you were at full health to start with…) when you hit him with a skill for 5k…. another one would have probs killed him.

Not sure where you see the QQing, I was legitimately curious about the mechanics of a thief since I don’t play one.

faztazkitten.7293:

And…. you hitting him for 5k kinda tells us that your a glass cannon yourself… Seems to me like your qqing…..

And yes of course I had a GC build, I never said I didn’t. Arcane Blast always crits, my question was in regard to whether Steal and Cloak&Dagger always crit as well.

Thanks for the other helpful replies. I got what I needed.

Besetment.9187:

You can tell a good commander from a bad one pretty easily, and it rarely has anything to do with having an icon, having bucket loads of gold or truckloads of badges. I see plenty of people in WvW that do not have icons but are exceptional commanders because they are exemplary players. Some of them don’t even know it because they are humble enough not to let ego or appearances get in the way of whats important, which is the integrity of the team.

^ This, is well said. There are thousands of good WvW players who decide not to waste their gold on a little blue hat.

Ok, well that makes sense I guess. Was it just chance that both Steal and Cloak&Dagger hit for critical damage?

Is this normal?

Debois Guilbert.6413:

So what example would you have a commander set? Your bad experience with some commander or commanders does not match mine. You seem to have had some positive experiences with commanderless groups, again haven’t experienced that in EB (I have in the BL maps). If you have a great idea of how to get things done, map and team chat are yours. Convince people your plan will work, recruit them to your cause and lead them to victory.

I’m glad we agree. A good commander does need to set an example and not just bark orders at people. Earning the trust of the players around you makes for an efficient fighting force. As I said above, if blind obedience is your thing then that’s cool, but I don’t think it leads to better zergs.

And WvW experience definitely accumulates over time. If a player has only been in WvW for a few weeks then they would not have experienced everything that there is to experience.

“If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.” -Sun Tzu

Bumping this thread since the idea of a GoM alliance has resurfaced. Lots of interesting ideas in here.

VeTx.5340:

Debois Guilbert.6413:

To clarify: if you and others are doubting our commanders then the opposing commanders have succeeded. If you have not already read it, I recommend “The Art of War” by Sun Tzu. Surprising how much applies to WvW.

This is correct, although a commander needs to actually win peoples’ loyalty first. It can be a bit of a catch 22.

Exactly, and Sun Tzu knew that:

“A leader leads by example not by force.”

Debois Guilbert.6413:

To clarify: if you and others are doubting our commanders then the opposing commanders have succeeded. If you have not already read it, I recommend “The Art of War” by Sun Tzu. Surprising how much applies to WvW.

I have read it and I’ll do you one better and give you a quote: “The expert in battle seeks his victory from strategic advantage and does not demand it from his men.” If what you’re advocating is blind obedience to any commander simply because of the tag then I respectfully disagree and I’ll leave it at that.

The reason I raise doubts is because some of these commanders have been playing for less than a month and yet they enter a wvw zone and start telling people what to do. I’m not here to call them out by name or have some long drawn out debate because that’s not the point. The point was to give feedback on the idea of forming an alliance.

As to the point about opposing commanders, I doubt they care or are even aware of this. The opposing commanders are going to change from week to week so I don’t see how they are a part of this discussion. All we’re talking about here is the idea of forming an internal alliance amongst veteran GoM players. Considering this will be the 5th attempt at such an alliance it shouldn’t be all that surprising that people want to give feedback so that we don’t repeat the mistakes of the past.

I hope that the people that are serious about this alliance will put their ideas out in the open for a better discussion. It seems silly to be discussing this in a weekly server battle thread.

Wryscher.1432:

I am sorry it has come to this but I wish you all well on Gates of Madness but like so many others I have packed my bags and run away like a sissy.

I tried. But sunday night in EB was to much for me. Loosing fully upgraded towers with sieges built because no one would come defend while 3 commander types stood on the wall of the keep making fun of each others guild tags. DH taking the left side, HoD taking the right. But at least they had the trebs guarded I guess. The suggestions from dumbos to just let them take stuff so we can take it back because it is quicker. The chuckleheads who wont quit buying the gun upgrades first.

I thought all day monday about going decided not to, but then I logged on to the 2 minute and 30 second warning to the new build grabbed the stuff out of my guild bank and ran. I didnt want to, I mean my last post I even said going to T8 wouldnt be bad. And it wouldn’t be if I actually felt like we were doing something.

So anywho not that anyone cares, just me and the GF and our two person guild running off.

Wish you all well, and glad to see people are working on plans to get things moving in the right direction. Im hanging out on Anvil Rock they always seemed like decent folk when we were fighting. Maybe some day down the line you will move up to us, or us down and you can show me just how poor my choice was by stabbing me over and over.

Best of luck man! I hope your new server works out for ya.

Prototype.9017:

Normally I would tend to agree with you on most commander-less groups accomplishing little, but I’ve seen a group of random people on my server fend off GoM attackers at SM for quite a while with no commander on the map for 2+ hours.

Completely agree! Some of the best engagements in WvW happen when everyone has to step up and do their part. Commanders serve a vital role, but it’s the soldiers that win the battle.

Debois Guilbert.6413:

@Tekyn: I always remind myself that the opposing commanders are doing their best to diminish our morale.

I’m not sure what that meant, but if you’re implying that I am an enemy commander then I can assure you I am not.

tl;dr – Commanders create an unnecessary hierarchy in WvW based on fake leadership and experience.

• Who leads the army? The guy with the most experience or the guy with 100g?

• What do you do when 6 commanders show up in EB and they all bark orders in team/map chat?

• When one commander tells another commander to turn off their tag, who is right and who is wrong?

These plus many other good questions lead to an ongoing problem of commanders in world vs world. Yes, commander tags have their uses but too often they are put on a pedestal of being superior to the average player. Too often drama ensues when people don’t listen to the commander and the commander goes into a rage rant. Too often commanders fight amongst themselves because they both paid 100g for their tag and kitten they both want to play with their toy armies!

ArenaNet, give everyone their 100g back and introduce a new system of ranks based on actual experience in WvW.

Thanks for reading.

edit: grammar

Shiver.5903:

@Tekyn.5376:
A commander is a great tool to rally players on the map. Some commanders have a lot of experience in the game, have played WvW intensively for the last months. Others are quite new to WvW, and need advice as any other player.

The community is getting organized, the players will recognize their veterans (Commander tag or not), and the more we get to know each other and exchange on forums, the better it will be.

Yeah I think we’re in agreement here on what we want for the server

Sororita.3465:

now i cant say anything on the matter of commanders before 3 weeks ago (when i started playing) but the commanders ive seen in the past few weeks have been excellent, organized us and have done it all in a fair and fun manner. sorry to hear thats how you’ve experienced it.

No need to be sorry. After three weeks of play I felt the same way. My overall point has to do with the long term success of the server and having a good community of wvw’ers.

grabemx.9836:

Our goal of hitting Tier 8 is almost complete.

All tiers are being reset on Friday. GoM could end up back in tier 4.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Coming-Soon-WvW-Rating-Reset

Shiver.5903:

I play WvW a lot and I see most of the commanders we had late november-early december. Every night I see them on, we discuss, we exchange information between maps. Hell, regardless of the commander tag, I recognize a lot of our veterans every night, fighting against all odds and sharing their knowledge of the game.

Yes we lost some people over the last few months, but we have a strong core, and we gained some too: lately we have a wave of new players to train. Now the question really is:
- Will you help GoM kickback and seize the occasion…. by the throat?

Coming up next weeks:
—> New WvW Website-Forum for Gates of Madness (see Scarecrow)
—> GoM Alliance Reformed.
—> Organized Events/Training sessions

Gates of Madness will bite back, with jaws of steel.

I applaud your effort, but with respect I hope you remember that a commander tag is just a 100g blue hat. The arrogance that has been exhibited lately by some of the new GoM commanders has been astonishing. Being a commander does not make you better than the other players nor does it entitle you to speak for the entire server. There are dozens if not hundreds of players on GoM who could afford a commander tag but choose not to buy it because they believe it’s a waste of money.

Don’t get me wrong I think a GoM alliance is a good idea, but after almost five months of WvW I am convinced now more than ever that commanders do more harm than good. If in the end the alliance is just a small group of hardcore jerks barking orders then the server will suffer and people will leave.

Just my two cents.

rubber.5324:

The main point is: Thief and their stealth ability, gives them unfair advantage (In my opinion as the receiving end) to not die(free to engage/disengage at will). As suggested by the screen shots.

Completely agree, and the point about being able to engage and disengage is so important. In the open field a thief can chase down almost anyone and then escape from combat at any point. That is an unfair advantage.

QuadJunky.2736:

Matt Witter.6982:

Any changes we make will undergo a lot of testing, both internal and by our trusted alpha team.

sigh…. Public Test Server

Invest in one, your "trusted’ alpha team has missed how many bugs and glitches already? Time to let the players who found those bugs and glitches your alpha team “missed” test changes.

Public Test Server.

Seriously Anet, time to join the big boys of the MMO world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing

Slamz.5376:

There is no combat advantage to firing from a wall to the ground rather than vice versa. There really should be.

Completely agree. IMO Pull effects in particular are overpowered. The parapets need to be raised so that any pull attempt stops you from going over the edge.

JohnDied.3476:

“Im rage quitting”

~said half the engineer playerbase

So we’re down to what, like 10 people now?

You mentioned Grenadier as a build, but is it really viable?

IMO Grenadier is definitely not a viable build anymore, atleast in WvW. The damage is just too low.

Kits as they are now are obviously meant for a quick swap to land some utility or damage depending on the situation, … (snip)

Is there a dev post that says the grenadier build is only supposed to “quick swap” for utility? What would be the point of a grenadier build if grenades are not your primary method for inflicting damage? (serious question)

I posted the following in the Twitch question thread regarding Engineers:

In recent months fewer and fewer people are playing Engineers. One of the reasons for this is that in the December 14th update Engineers had their Grenade 1 damage reduced by 30%. The stated reason for this change was because Kits could now benefit from the use of Sigils. How exactly do Sigils make up for a 30% nerf and will this change be looked at or reversed in the future?

I hope it gets answered.

Question regarding WvW – Blueprints

Is it possible to make Siege Blueprints account bound so they can be shared across multiple characters? If yes, is this something that we can expect in the next 6 months?

Question regarding WvW – Upgrade Costs

For players who exclusively do WvW the economics of earning coin do not add up. The coin gained from drops and events does not equal the cost of doing multiple upgrades at towers, keeps, or castles. Has there been any discussion of adding a feature that allows partial upgrades to be purchased such that multiple players can pool their coin to complete an upgrade? If not, will the coin rewards from WvW events be reviewed and increased?

Class specific question – Engineer

In recent months fewer and fewer people are playing Engineers. One of the reasons for this is that in the December 14th update Engineers had their Grenade 1 damage reduced by 30%. The stated reason for this change was because Kits could now benefit from the use of Sigils. How exactly do Sigils make up for a 30% nerf and will this change be looked at or reversed in the future?

Agreed. It’s a completely failed idea. The notion that someone who pays 100g is going to be the leader of a group, or a server is ridiculous. WvW should have earned ranks and those ranks should be visible to other players.

The current commander system is an indulgence of little boys who want to play with toy soldiers.

Fraeg.9837:

You are missing a major part of what WvW is about if you are hoping to be paid for your contributions.

It’s not a “hope to be paid for contributions” it’s an exchange of goods no different than armor, weapons or food.

Look at it another way, hundreds of players are either too cheap or too lazy to put on both a Food nourishment and a Utility nourishment when they WvW. Should those players be scorned for not ‘contributing’ to their full potential? Should rich players buy them food and give it out? Should poor players expect to get free food & utility? There is no single answer to that question and the answer is going to be different depending on which server you play on.

StormWolf.7645:

You’re missing a major part of what currency is for if you are hoping for people to give it away for free.

Exactly.

After reading through all these posts I think it’s clear that the attitude towards this practice varies from server to server and tier to tier.

In the lower tiers, we almost never have a queue so the idea that someone is ‘taking up a spot’ in wvw doesn’t apply.

On my server most of the commanders are idiots who think they’re better at wvw simply because of their tag. I don’t know anyone who has ‘donated’ to a commander simply because they were a commander.

A lot of siege that I see placed is placed poorly so the notion that any siege that gets deployed is a ‘contribution’ is wrong. A badly placed piece of siege will waste supply from players who don’t know better.

At the end of the day I thank SteepledHat for bringing up this issue for debate. Unless ArenaNet changes the behavior of blueprints there is no doubt that more and more people will sell blueprints. Some servers will shame their playerbase into giving away blueprints, other servers will embrace the buying & selling of blueprints at a discount. This issue will work itself out on it’s own as any other free market does (assuming of course that ArenaNet doesn’t make any changes).

SteepledHat.1345:

I’ve been doing it for a while, but a lot of my regular customers have left the game or just don’t WvW much anymore. I tried advertising in map chat and, let’s just say, it didn’t go well. I was accused of not being a team player, of not caring about the server, and all that jazz.

None of it is true. I just see it like this. I am almost exclusively a skirmisher. Most siege is useless to me. If I ever do find myself near a zerg or helping out when we’re outmanned, I drop siege if I have it without a second thought.

However, it drops often enough that I can gather up a reasonable stock. To me, selling siege rather than giving it away is no different than selling exotics rather than not giving them to your allies. You got luck and got them. They’re your stuff and you have to right to profit off them if you’d like to. No one is forced to buy from me. I also never sell to the enemy.

Not to mention, I always sell at lower than vendor cost to purchase the prints. I manage to profit from my play and the players I sell to get a good deal as well. Seems like a win win to me.

Am I wrong? I know I won’t be advertising anymore, lol. I’ve had enough of the pious server pride stuff. But I’m interested to hear what people think.

So am I wrong on this? Are arms dealers okay and are they good for WvW? Let’s keep this polite and friendly. I hope we can discuss this rather than bicker.

A lot of people routinely sell off the blueprints that they don’t use. Golem’s for example are more useful to large organized guilds than individual players because they require a decent sized forced to protect them. The idea that anyone is not a team player or being ‘disloyal’ is complete bull. If I didn’t sell my golem for 75s then it would be sitting in my inventory collecting dust. The fact is I am doing my server a favor by offering an additional method for acquiring blueprints at a reduced cost. If somebody doesn’t want to buy them from me, then don’t. If you want to get them for free, then run the jumping puzzle.

Bottom line, there’s nothing wrong with it at all.

RaynStargaze.6510:

Shadowtech.5071:

yes it was that huge a nerf

BULLSHIET!

blind grenade now deals damage SO ITS ABSOLUTELY FINE AND JUSTIFIED!!!!!

So true because I can ride a dolyak and my flamethrower shoots out t-shirts