And people thought I was trolling with my “The Engineer class is the developer’s punchline” topic.
It is hard to balance a class with 8 solid at will abilities against most classes with 4.
One of the main limiting factors in this game is cooldowns. Having twice as many as people, usable at all times would wipe the floor with most classes.
Less thinking it was created to troll…
More thinking it was hastily thrown together and never finished, and now that the game has launched no one has the will to say “We need to actually fix/finish this class instead of pretending everything is fine”.
On team composition: Ele’s are strong? Huh…we run 5 Engineers. Maybe that’s why we suck so bad.
I really dislike the profession devs.
Given the Dev’s a break – they said exactly the right thing!
Imagine if they’d said “Huh … we run 5 Engineers and we rock!”Far from Engineers being ignored by the Devs:
- The Devs are actively playing Engineers.
- They’re familiar enough with the problems with Engineers to joke about it publicly.
This is the best news I’ve heard about the prospects for the Engineer class, yet. The more the Dev’s play Engs and the more they joke about their failings, the more love we can expect the Engineer class to get.
Go the Dev’s and their all Engineer team!
They’ve joked and said similar things about Engineers before.
They still nerfed us.
The problem with putting kits into F1-F4, is that now your utilities will have the toolbet skills. If thats the proposed change, then the toolbelt skills for those kits would NEED to be beefed up, because frankly they are not utility worthy as they stand, not at all.
That is more of the point than the problem.
Right now most utilities are two mediocre abilities, or a kit and a mediocre ability.
If they remove the tool belt they could give us one good solid ability instead of two poor ones. It would also eliminate not wanting to take a kit because the the tool belt ability is poor, or wanting to have a kit just for the tool belt.
It isn’t just about the binds.
Please read the thread more closely.
The real issue is that Anet wouldn’t want 2 professions to have very similar playstyles.
Ding ding ding winner!
All professions are meant to have a unique mechanic. ArenaNet will NOT make Engineers F1-F4 work like Elementalists.
It wouldn’t be the same mechanic because it wouldn’t be dependent on the normal weapons you have equipped.
Besides, Necros already have a stance on F1 as well.
I would rather have good, solid kits on F1 and F2 than a wreckage of mostly mediocre skills cluttering up F1-F4 and 7-9.
Having a normal skill like Oil boots give two skills makes them really hard to balance. Instead of giving a solid utility and a bonus toolkit skill it feels like they give out two mediocre abilities.
Watching State of the Game is always enlightening.
Developers: Man those trap rangers are OP, right guys!
Player 1: No, they’re not.
Player 2: They’re pretty terrible
Developers: Man those Warriors need buffs, right guys!
Player 1: Not really.
Player 2: Good Warriors do fine.
On the bright side a bit further in they talk about changing non-grenade kits. Particularly toolkit and Elixir gun, but give no details.
I was also really disheartened that they seem focused on skill capped players. That’s a VERY small minority of players who I wouldn’t be concerned about balancing for if I were concerned with the financial success of my company.
ArenaNet is obsessed with turning GW2 into an Esport. They are pretty much writing off the majority of their playerbase in favor of it.
anet say s engis are fine sorry they wont look at this thread
Which is the problem with ArenaNet.
They only respond to sycophantic posts. They drank their own koolaid and refuse to admit when they screw up.
This is why the 5 “haves” (Warrior, Thief, Elementalist, Guardian, Mesmer) get more attention than the 3 “have nots” (Engineer, Ranger, Necro). ArenaNet can’t admit to anyone, even themselves, that they screwed the pooch on class balance. So they just ignore, or nerf, the weaker classes to maintain the illusion that they are fine.
Sadly it reminds me of the Diablo3 team under Jay Wilson.
I stole the patch notes:
Thieves: Double damage on all abilities. Made Stealth Permanent.
Warrior: Hundred Blades can not be dodged, blocked or avoided.
Necro/Engineer/Ranger: Damage and HP reduced in Half.
The problem is that Arena net has drank their own KoolAid. They bought into their own hype and not refuse to believe that they possibly didn’t do something correctly.
Every 2-3 months there is a patch. And almost nothing changes.
Engineers have over 100 documented bugs and 5ish are getting fixed every 2 months.
Are we expected to wait nearly 2 years for “bug fixes” before substantive changes are made?
The rate of change is disappointing and bordering on pathetic. ArenaNet needs to step up their game.
I’ve come to the realization that ArenaNet has drank their own coolaid and they are unable to realize they didn’t make a perfect product.
At 8-10 bug fixes every 3 months they will get through the current Engineer bug list in 2.5 years. They’re either lazy or incompetent. Either way I’m done waiting for them to get their kitten together.
I come from Necro…I’m not scared trust me lol. I rolled an engi today, already used my cof tokens to buy him some gear so now I have a reason to learn it and keep playing it lol. Even if it does underperform as badly as everyone says, as long as I can find some fun in it, that’s what matters. I mean hell, look at me with my necro main. I find ways to make it work, and when I can’t make it work, well that’s what alts are for, or I can go read a book :-P
The problem you will run into is that you end up having two modes.
“Somewhat effective and really, really bad gameplay”
“Extremely Ineffective but ok gameplay”
It’s cute people think the Developers read the Engineer forums.
Like seriously adorable.
Engineer is the Witch Doctor (from D3) of Guild Wars.
A lot of great ideas thrown into a bag, then mercilessly beaten with a baseball bat until only a bloody, mangled pulp of “What Could Have Been” remains.
Hopefully fixing Engineers doesn’t take removing the lead dev like it did with Diablo3 and Witch Doctors.
I’m hopeful that the Devs saying that they will look at AOE on a weapon by weapon/skill by skill basis means that when they get to the engineer they won’t fail to note that they’ve already “toned down” grenades, that bombs don’t offer a better return on opportunity cost than single target damage due to the melee range, and delay. That Flamethrower… wait, does “Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss…” count as AOE?
Don’t kid yourself.
They’re 3 for 3 when it comes to nerfing Engineers in major patches.
Drop trou, lube up and bend over.
I doubt it, they are nerfing AoEs, which means more flamethrower and grenade nerfs.
AoE isn’t a problem. The class “balance” team is just going to use this as an excuse to nerf the weakest classes and buff the strongest classes.
I have no idea how they still have jobs.
Bettin’ this is just a bullkitten ruse to nerf Engineers and Necros while buffing Warriors and Thieves.
Highest dps, best mobility and permastealth. Something needs to give.
Highest DPS? that would be warrior.
Highest Mobility, that would be warrior.
Permastealth? A liability to your server or team.
Uh, no way… not even close to sort of kinda true.
Highest burst? Thieves (warriors don’t even have the highest sustained damage anymore)
Highest Mobility? Thieves
Most “Oh kitten” buttons? Thieves
Best class ability? Thieves
Right on though, keep trying to play the martyr and convince everyone that this 39 page thread that exists on the thieves forum alone is completely unjustified and unfounded.
Its obvious you probably don’t play a thief or warrior, since you don’t know either.
Mobility:
Warrior.
Elementalist.
Thief.In that order.
I would love to hear your attempt to justify those mobility rankings.
Thief, Guardian and Warrior buffs.
Necro, Ranger and Engineer Nerfs.
The problem is they they are thinking:
E-Sports Success → Popular Game
They need to realize it goes the other way around
Popular Game → E-Sports Success.
I don’t think it will help.
The more I play other classes the more I realize the problem is with Arena Net, not Engineers.
Maybe after we get a new balance team, but right now I don’t see anything that can help.
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcMzM9mMgoLMMgoMM0xax0ckqmcoz8khT70z7070c7kIM70V7ow370m
Follow that directly, you will be a TANK that can put the pain on any thief you come across, flamethrower is the thieves WORSE nightmare? hes stealthed but thieves are ALWAYS in melee range, so if he stealths just flame and run in circles until your combat log hits something.
Your almost dead? Switch to heal kit, heal for full, repeat, he will eventually have to run away.
El.
Oh.
El.You have no clue.
Seriously, I’m cross posting this to the Engineer forum for laughs.
You take conflicting talents. You take broken talents. You ignore good talents. Seriously, this is the funniest thing I have seen in a week.
In that build backstab only hits me for 3578!
If those traits are broken, then why don’t you complain about your class being crappy and not thief being overpowered?
4k? What a from a level 20 thief?
Taking from a 9K base where do you see 50% damage reduction? You didn’t even pick up +toughness for the shield.
You are lying.Because even if they worked they wouldn’t be that good.
He was a backstab thief in SPVP, he hit me for very little.
I am indeed a liar.
How do you know he was backstab speced?
Maybe he was Condition Damage.
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcMzM9mMgoLMMgoMM0xax0ckqmcoz8khT70z7070c7kIM70V7ow370m
Follow that directly, you will be a TANK that can put the pain on any thief you come across, flamethrower is the thieves WORSE nightmare? hes stealthed but thieves are ALWAYS in melee range, so if he stealths just flame and run in circles until your combat log hits something.
Your almost dead? Switch to heal kit, heal for full, repeat, he will eventually have to run away.
El.
Oh.
El.You have no clue.
Seriously, I’m cross posting this to the Engineer forum for laughs.
You take conflicting talents. You take broken talents. You ignore good talents. Seriously, this is the funniest thing I have seen in a week.
In that build backstab only hits me for 3578!
If those traits are broken, then why don’t you complain about your class being crappy and not thief being overpowered?
4k? What a from a level 20 thief?
Taking from a 9K base where do you see 50% damage reduction? You didn’t even pick up +toughness for the shield.
You are lying.
Because even if they worked they wouldn’t be that good.
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcMzM9mMgoLMMgoMM0xax0ckqmcoz8khT70z7070c7kIM70V7ow370m
Follow that directly, you will be a TANK that can put the pain on any thief you come across, flamethrower is the thieves WORSE nightmare? hes stealthed but thieves are ALWAYS in melee range, so if he stealths just flame and run in circles until your combat log hits something.
Your almost dead? Switch to heal kit, heal for full, repeat, he will eventually have to run away.
El.
Oh.
El.
You have no clue.
Seriously, I’m cross posting this to the Engineer forum for laughs.
You take conflicting talents. You take broken talents. You ignore good talents. Seriously, this is the funniest thing I have seen in a week.
(edited by Xae.7204)
Yeah, it would be great to see some Thief playstyles other than “LOL INSTAGIB” get buffed. P/P was really fun, but overpowered, in some of the BWE. They probably hit the damage to hard, but it was fun to by a mid range skirmisher.
That is a cute list of bugs though. You should see the ones in the Ranger, Engineer or Necro forums. Necros even devised a tracking and naming system. Engineers cracked 100 a while ago.
“LOL INSTAGIB” only happens when people build glass cannons in low-mobility classes like Ranger, Warrior, Guardian, and Necro. If people stack toughness (for instance, all Warriors should be using Knight’s Armor and/or emerald trinkets in WvW), then glass cannon thieves like myself can be in trouble.
Elementalists and Mesmers are only in trouble if they sit still and don’t know how to play against thieves. No matter what their build, Elementalists have plenty of defensive, offensive, CC, and gap-control abilities to work with. If an Ele loses against a thief, then he’s not using his skills and attunements well enough (that goes double for D/D eles, who should have an ADVANTAGE over a standard thief). If a Mesmer loses against a thief, it’s because he wasn’t using his illusions like blood hounds, and using his CC and gap-control abilities like they should.
For Engineer…. well, unless you’re a TANKCAT engie, you’re pretty much screwed. Engies need a serious buff. It’s why my engie hasn’t even gotten past lvl 11 thus far (I’ve not put any time into it).
I play a Bunker Engineer. ~25K Health, ~3k Armor. A ton of toughness. High levels of protection uptime.
I can be nigh-instagibbed by a good Thief.
That is the problem. “LOL INSTAGIB” even works through defensive specs.
That seems impossible, I need a video with your stats up. (trait choices as well.)
I’ve been reading some of these things. 50% movement speed in stealth is capped at 33%, so you gain nothing if you have swiftness and you gain 8% if you use signet of shadows. Do you play this class?
Stealing 20 stacks of might? you can only steal one stack from someone with bountiful theft. Do you play this class?
Engineers are amazingly tanky, they should not die that easilly, especially to an instagib thief, infact with there traits, it should be impossible to instagib them, if they go under a certain amount of HP, they gain 4-5 seconds of invulnerability. Don’t you play the class?
There is a counter to stealth, its called: think like a thief does, why don’t you try playing a thief and figure out how the class works, I did that and now I have no problem with them on my warrior.
I’m getting tired of trying to defend my class when people just come in and sprout nonsense that isn’t true, and don’t bother to test anything.
http://i.imgur.com/g3euq.png
20K damage combo, through protection full bunker Engineer.Thats not evidence.Those are some numbers on the screen.Even if it they were to be true ,which we can’t know, doesn’t mean anything.
You heard it here first kids:
“Facts aren’t evidence”.
Well, better than the standard “facts don’t matter”.
Denial isn’t a river in Egypt.
That was only 14k damage, looking like you were being attacked by other people, how do you know the thief wasn’t getting buffed by anyone, how do we know you had protection, how do we know you didn’t have 10 stacks of vulnerability?
To be honest, you ate 9k damage, thats average for a GLASS cannon, without protection.
Average hit for a Non-glass cannon with protection is 4-6k, with d/d eles I usually hit them for 4.7k MAX, which is rediculous.
Are you unable to do simple math or just not paying attention?
4529+ 5137 + 9843 = 19509Can we at least agree on that?
Either one speaks volumes about you.
Oh no, I missed one, yep your right you got hit for 19k.
What jewelry/armor do you use?
What are your traits?Perhaps I can help your engineer beat thieves.
Shield/pistol at the time. 0/20/30/20/0 build. Full Vit/Toughness gear. All Exotic.
The entire time the thief attacked me she was invisible. I didn’t even have time to pulse shield 4 for the knockback. I died before the it went off.
Since being full defensive didn’t matter I went to a rifle build. Still tanks 3k Armor, 20k health. Still get instagibbed.
If full defensive doesn’t stop insta-gib why bother?
The only way you can help Engineers beat thieves is to admit they are game breakingly overpowered and encourage Arena Net to pull their heads from their kitten
If YOU can’t instagib an Engineer it is because you are bad. Sorry, but it is true.
Yeah, it would be great to see some Thief playstyles other than “LOL INSTAGIB” get buffed. P/P was really fun, but overpowered, in some of the BWE. They probably hit the damage to hard, but it was fun to by a mid range skirmisher.
That is a cute list of bugs though. You should see the ones in the Ranger, Engineer or Necro forums. Necros even devised a tracking and naming system. Engineers cracked 100 a while ago.
“LOL INSTAGIB” only happens when people build glass cannons in low-mobility classes like Ranger, Warrior, Guardian, and Necro. If people stack toughness (for instance, all Warriors should be using Knight’s Armor and/or emerald trinkets in WvW), then glass cannon thieves like myself can be in trouble.
Elementalists and Mesmers are only in trouble if they sit still and don’t know how to play against thieves. No matter what their build, Elementalists have plenty of defensive, offensive, CC, and gap-control abilities to work with. If an Ele loses against a thief, then he’s not using his skills and attunements well enough (that goes double for D/D eles, who should have an ADVANTAGE over a standard thief). If a Mesmer loses against a thief, it’s because he wasn’t using his illusions like blood hounds, and using his CC and gap-control abilities like they should.
For Engineer…. well, unless you’re a TANKCAT engie, you’re pretty much screwed. Engies need a serious buff. It’s why my engie hasn’t even gotten past lvl 11 thus far (I’ve not put any time into it).
I play a Bunker Engineer. ~25K Health, ~3k Armor. A ton of toughness. High levels of protection uptime.
I can be nigh-instagibbed by a good Thief.
That is the problem. “LOL INSTAGIB” even works through defensive specs.
That seems impossible, I need a video with your stats up. (trait choices as well.)
I’ve been reading some of these things. 50% movement speed in stealth is capped at 33%, so you gain nothing if you have swiftness and you gain 8% if you use signet of shadows. Do you play this class?
Stealing 20 stacks of might? you can only steal one stack from someone with bountiful theft. Do you play this class?
Engineers are amazingly tanky, they should not die that easilly, especially to an instagib thief, infact with there traits, it should be impossible to instagib them, if they go under a certain amount of HP, they gain 4-5 seconds of invulnerability. Don’t you play the class?
There is a counter to stealth, its called: think like a thief does, why don’t you try playing a thief and figure out how the class works, I did that and now I have no problem with them on my warrior.
I’m getting tired of trying to defend my class when people just come in and sprout nonsense that isn’t true, and don’t bother to test anything.
http://i.imgur.com/g3euq.png
20K damage combo, through protection full bunker Engineer.Thats not evidence.Those are some numbers on the screen.Even if it they were to be true ,which we can’t know, doesn’t mean anything.
You heard it here first kids:
“Facts aren’t evidence”.
Well, better than the standard “facts don’t matter”.
Denial isn’t a river in Egypt.
That was only 14k damage, looking like you were being attacked by other people, how do you know the thief wasn’t getting buffed by anyone, how do we know you had protection, how do we know you didn’t have 10 stacks of vulnerability?
To be honest, you ate 9k damage, thats average for a GLASS cannon, without protection.
Average hit for a Non-glass cannon with protection is 4-6k, with d/d eles I usually hit them for 4.7k MAX, which is rediculous.
Are you unable to do simple math or just not paying attention?
4529+ 5137 + 9843 = 19509
Can we at least agree on that?
Either one speaks volumes about you.
(edited by Xae.7204)
Yeah, it would be great to see some Thief playstyles other than “LOL INSTAGIB” get buffed. P/P was really fun, but overpowered, in some of the BWE. They probably hit the damage to hard, but it was fun to by a mid range skirmisher.
That is a cute list of bugs though. You should see the ones in the Ranger, Engineer or Necro forums. Necros even devised a tracking and naming system. Engineers cracked 100 a while ago.
“LOL INSTAGIB” only happens when people build glass cannons in low-mobility classes like Ranger, Warrior, Guardian, and Necro. If people stack toughness (for instance, all Warriors should be using Knight’s Armor and/or emerald trinkets in WvW), then glass cannon thieves like myself can be in trouble.
Elementalists and Mesmers are only in trouble if they sit still and don’t know how to play against thieves. No matter what their build, Elementalists have plenty of defensive, offensive, CC, and gap-control abilities to work with. If an Ele loses against a thief, then he’s not using his skills and attunements well enough (that goes double for D/D eles, who should have an ADVANTAGE over a standard thief). If a Mesmer loses against a thief, it’s because he wasn’t using his illusions like blood hounds, and using his CC and gap-control abilities like they should.
For Engineer…. well, unless you’re a TANKCAT engie, you’re pretty much screwed. Engies need a serious buff. It’s why my engie hasn’t even gotten past lvl 11 thus far (I’ve not put any time into it).
I play a Bunker Engineer. ~25K Health, ~3k Armor. A ton of toughness. High levels of protection uptime.
I can be nigh-instagibbed by a good Thief.
That is the problem. “LOL INSTAGIB” even works through defensive specs.
That seems impossible, I need a video with your stats up. (trait choices as well.)
I’ve been reading some of these things. 50% movement speed in stealth is capped at 33%, so you gain nothing if you have swiftness and you gain 8% if you use signet of shadows. Do you play this class?
Stealing 20 stacks of might? you can only steal one stack from someone with bountiful theft. Do you play this class?
Engineers are amazingly tanky, they should not die that easilly, especially to an instagib thief, infact with there traits, it should be impossible to instagib them, if they go under a certain amount of HP, they gain 4-5 seconds of invulnerability. Don’t you play the class?
There is a counter to stealth, its called: think like a thief does, why don’t you try playing a thief and figure out how the class works, I did that and now I have no problem with them on my warrior.
I’m getting tired of trying to defend my class when people just come in and sprout nonsense that isn’t true, and don’t bother to test anything.
http://i.imgur.com/g3euq.png
20K damage combo, through protection full bunker Engineer.Thats not evidence.Those are some numbers on the screen.Even if it they were to be true ,which we can’t know, doesn’t mean anything.
You heard it here first kids:
“Facts aren’t evidence”.
Well, better than the standard “facts don’t matter”.
Denial isn’t a river in Egypt.
Yeah, it would be great to see some Thief playstyles other than “LOL INSTAGIB” get buffed. P/P was really fun, but overpowered, in some of the BWE. They probably hit the damage to hard, but it was fun to by a mid range skirmisher.
That is a cute list of bugs though. You should see the ones in the Ranger, Engineer or Necro forums. Necros even devised a tracking and naming system. Engineers cracked 100 a while ago.
“LOL INSTAGIB” only happens when people build glass cannons in low-mobility classes like Ranger, Warrior, Guardian, and Necro. If people stack toughness (for instance, all Warriors should be using Knight’s Armor and/or emerald trinkets in WvW), then glass cannon thieves like myself can be in trouble.
Elementalists and Mesmers are only in trouble if they sit still and don’t know how to play against thieves. No matter what their build, Elementalists have plenty of defensive, offensive, CC, and gap-control abilities to work with. If an Ele loses against a thief, then he’s not using his skills and attunements well enough (that goes double for D/D eles, who should have an ADVANTAGE over a standard thief). If a Mesmer loses against a thief, it’s because he wasn’t using his illusions like blood hounds, and using his CC and gap-control abilities like they should.
For Engineer…. well, unless you’re a TANKCAT engie, you’re pretty much screwed. Engies need a serious buff. It’s why my engie hasn’t even gotten past lvl 11 thus far (I’ve not put any time into it).
I play a Bunker Engineer. ~25K Health, ~3k Armor. A ton of toughness. High levels of protection uptime.
I can be nigh-instagibbed by a good Thief.
That is the problem. “LOL INSTAGIB” even works through defensive specs.
That seems impossible, I need a video with your stats up. (trait choices as well.)
I’ve been reading some of these things. 50% movement speed in stealth is capped at 33%, so you gain nothing if you have swiftness and you gain 8% if you use signet of shadows. Do you play this class?
Stealing 20 stacks of might? you can only steal one stack from someone with bountiful theft. Do you play this class?
Engineers are amazingly tanky, they should not die that easilly, especially to an instagib thief, infact with there traits, it should be impossible to instagib them, if they go under a certain amount of HP, they gain 4-5 seconds of invulnerability. Don’t you play the class?
There is a counter to stealth, its called: think like a thief does, why don’t you try playing a thief and figure out how the class works, I did that and now I have no problem with them on my warrior.
I’m getting tired of trying to defend my class when people just come in and sprout nonsense that isn’t true, and don’t bother to test anything.
http://i.imgur.com/g3euq.png
20K damage combo, through protection full bunker Engineer.
Invisible Instagibbing Thieves.
Every day goes by that Arena Net lets a gamebreaking bug for one class destroy WvW is a proof that “some classes are more equal than others”.
When Engineer turrets were bugged in WvW they got disabled.
Thief skill bugged? No problem, just let it slide for 6 months!
This game would have more longevity if they weren’t spending 80% of their time on gimmicky monthly updates and 20% of their time on core gameplay improvements.
Yeah, it would be great to see some Thief playstyles other than “LOL INSTAGIB” get buffed. P/P was really fun, but overpowered, in some of the BWE. They probably hit the damage to hard, but it was fun to by a mid range skirmisher.
That is a cute list of bugs though. You should see the ones in the Ranger, Engineer or Necro forums. Necros even devised a tracking and naming system. Engineers cracked 100 a while ago.
“LOL INSTAGIB” only happens when people build glass cannons in low-mobility classes like Ranger, Warrior, Guardian, and Necro. If people stack toughness (for instance, all Warriors should be using Knight’s Armor and/or emerald trinkets in WvW), then glass cannon thieves like myself can be in trouble.
Elementalists and Mesmers are only in trouble if they sit still and don’t know how to play against thieves. No matter what their build, Elementalists have plenty of defensive, offensive, CC, and gap-control abilities to work with. If an Ele loses against a thief, then he’s not using his skills and attunements well enough (that goes double for D/D eles, who should have an ADVANTAGE over a standard thief). If a Mesmer loses against a thief, it’s because he wasn’t using his illusions like blood hounds, and using his CC and gap-control abilities like they should.
For Engineer…. well, unless you’re a TANKCAT engie, you’re pretty much screwed. Engies need a serious buff. It’s why my engie hasn’t even gotten past lvl 11 thus far (I’ve not put any time into it).
I play a Bunker Engineer. ~25K Health, ~3k Armor. A ton of toughness. High levels of protection uptime.
I can be nigh-instagibbed by a good Thief.
That is the problem. “LOL INSTAGIB” even works through defensive specs.
Before you nerf anything, you need to fix.
- Pistol Refire Rate, Damage
- Venom Utility to not be worthless.
- Useless Traps.
- Dual Skill Traits (to not be worthless, change them to traits like: Right-Hand Strength – Critical-hit chance with one-handed weapons is increased by 15%, Blademaster – Increases your critical-hit chance with a sword by 10%..)Why pick a dual skill trait when theres a SAME trait right next to it that buffs damage by the same amount?!
Combined Training – Dual skills deal 5% more damage.
Change to: Swashbuckler Training – Sword and Spear Damage is increased by 10%.Combo Critical Chance – Dual skills have a +5% chance to critical hit.
Change to: Duelist – Increases Sword And Spear Critical Chance is increased by 15%.
Yeah, it would be great to see some Thief playstyles other than “LOL INSTAGIB” get buffed. P/P was really fun, but overpowered, in some of the BWE. They probably hit the damage to hard, but it was fun to by a mid range skirmisher.
That is a cute list of bugs though. You should see the ones in the Ranger, Engineer or Necro forums. Necros even devised a tracking and naming system. Engineers cracked 100 a while ago.
They should disable stealth in WvW until they fix culling in WvW.
When Engineer Turrets where bugged they had no problem disabling them.
Why are Engineers less worthy of a good place experience than Thieves?
Hit for 9968 damage in under a second in the opening attack.
5217 from steal alone.
Full exotic toughness armor and weapons engineer. Full exotic vitality jewelry.Health pool is 21382 so almost half my health dropped in the opening attack. And no..no elixir U used =).
So basically I started the fight with half my health gone. So much for toughness/vitality countering the thief’s ‘nerfed’ DPS.
Pic attached.
So you started the fight with right around the thief’s healthpool? Sounds like he started the fight off by evening the odds.
No..I started the fight with the same health pool of a glass cannon who has more dps than me based on his build and gear.
I started the fight with the same health pool as the thief who can stealth to get away from being focused.
So..no..it wasn’t evening the odds..it was using a broken class. Good try, though! (not..)So in essence..your punished for using toughness/vitality gear and your punished for using glass cannon gear. i.e. What thief players depend on.
Its entertaining seeing how thief players argue and defend the broken mechanics. Reminds me of someone drowning who will grab unto anything =D .
Please fix the handicap mode class..how many pages in this thread do we need ?
I swear you could replace Thieves with “Bright Wizards” and this thread could be a Warhammer one.
Overpowered Class: "Listen, I’m not overpowered I just hard counter all Builds with “X”."
Everyone Else: "Do you also hard counter “Y”? ‘Cause you’re killing those too"
Overpowered Class: "Of Course, I hard counter “X” and “Y” type of builds".
Repeat for all build types.
I’m getting sick and tired of every feature of this game I try to enjoy being ignored in favor some some “me too!” E-Sports crap.
If balance in WvW is irreverent then they should disable stealth in it.
They have had no problem disabling other skills when they didn’t work right. Even class mechanic skills.
This. 1,000 times this. The players crying out for nerfs are not interested in game balance. They’re only interested in winning without putting in any effort for it. And supposing the thief does get heavily crippled by the nerf bat, don’t think for a moment they’ll stop at the thief. Any of the other 7 classes will be on their hit lists. all it takes is a single defeat and “ERMAHGERD, OVURPOWERD, NURF!!!11!1one!1one!1!”
Fine, Lets just buff everyone to deal with Thieves!
Every Non thief Class will now do 10x more damage.
Every Non thief Class will now have 10x more HP.No nerfs! So I must be interested in balance right?
The only thing “nerfs” do is separate people who can think logically and those who can not. Power is totally relative. A nerf to one class is a buff to every other. A Buff to one class is a nerf to every other.
The only “advantage” of Buffs only is to soothe the egos of bad players using overpowered classes as a crutch to overcome their own incompetence.
So we should nerf the thief class because one of them dared strike you? Yes of course, makes perfect sense! People don’t want to just nerf the thief now, they want to utterly destroy it. Every time someone gets beaten by a thief, or a warrior, or a mesmer, they come here crying and screaming for nerfs like ignorant little children. Have you been paying any attention to the thief forums? The nerfers have been attacking everything from death blossom, to stealth. They’re dead set on obliterating thief burst, taking away stealth, and generally ruining the thief entirely.
The thief class isn’t overpowered. Could it use some tweaks? Perhaps, but the same could be argued of other classes as well. However, beyond the culling issue, there are little to no issues at all. If you’re going to nerf thief burst, then burst for other classes should be nerfed as well. People so easily overlook all the threads from thief and non-thief players alike about how easy it is to kill thieves. Look through the forums and you’ll find that skilled players have no problems dealing with thieves. But because bad players get beaten by thieves, they MUST be overpowered! HURRAY FOR LOGIC!!1!one!!
By that logic, every class should get nerfed for having ever defeated someone.
Incompetence indeed.
Wooshh. Right over your head.
No, i knew exactly what you were saying. But because i don’t agree with you, I’m stupid and didn’t get it, but whatever helps you sleep at night buddy. If it makes you feel better to think you won an internet argument, then by all means. Either way, I think I’m done here. Have a nice day.
No, you didn’t get what I was saying, and you still don’t get it.
Let me spell it out for you: Nerfing or Buffing makes no difference to balance. You can either nerf one or two over powered things in a week or buff hundreds of things to compensate on a few years.
The only purpose of “buffing” instead of “nerfing” is that it protects fragile egos.
You are so defensive it is like you are trying to prove the “fragile ego” part right.
The basics of the engineer are: you play at 100% to match others at 80%.
The upside of that is when you find a good Engineer you know they are actually good and it’s not their class.
But yeah, my Engie just hit lvl 11 and I’m having a hell of a time with DPS when I use Pistol/Shield. Makes me want to finish leveling my Ranger (lvl 68). I never thought I’d say that. <head-desk>
Sometimes I get the impression that toolkits/weaponkits are the only viable option. -_-
They where before they gutted them last patch.
For kittens and giggle I added half of the “No really, Engineers are fine” to my watch list.
Want to take a guess as to what class they where playing?
Hint: It starts with an “N”, and ends with “ot an Engineer”.
If balance in WvW is irreverent then they should disable stealth in it.
They have had no problem disabling other skills when they didn’t work right. Even class mechanic skills.
This. 1,000 times this. The players crying out for nerfs are not interested in game balance. They’re only interested in winning without putting in any effort for it. And supposing the thief does get heavily crippled by the nerf bat, don’t think for a moment they’ll stop at the thief. Any of the other 7 classes will be on their hit lists. all it takes is a single defeat and “ERMAHGERD, OVURPOWERD, NURF!!!11!1one!1one!1!”
Fine, Lets just buff everyone to deal with Thieves!
Every Non thief Class will now do 10x more damage.
Every Non thief Class will now have 10x more HP.No nerfs! So I must be interested in balance right?
The only thing “nerfs” do is separate people who can think logically and those who can not. Power is totally relative. A nerf to one class is a buff to every other. A Buff to one class is a nerf to every other.
The only “advantage” of Buffs only is to soothe the egos of bad players using overpowered classes as a crutch to overcome their own incompetence.
So we should nerf the thief class because one of them dared strike you? Yes of course, makes perfect sense! People don’t want to just nerf the thief now, they want to utterly destroy it. Every time someone gets beaten by a thief, or a warrior, or a mesmer, they come here crying and screaming for nerfs like ignorant little children. Have you been paying any attention to the thief forums? The nerfers have been attacking everything from death blossom, to stealth. They’re dead set on obliterating thief burst, taking away stealth, and generally ruining the thief entirely.
The thief class isn’t overpowered. Could it use some tweaks? Perhaps, but the same could be argued of other classes as well. However, beyond the culling issue, there are little to no issues at all. If you’re going to nerf thief burst, then burst for other classes should be nerfed as well. People so easily overlook all the threads from thief and non-thief players alike about how easy it is to kill thieves. Look through the forums and you’ll find that skilled players have no problems dealing with thieves. But because bad players get beaten by thieves, they MUST be overpowered! HURRAY FOR LOGIC!!1!one!!
By that logic, every class should get nerfed for having ever defeated someone.
Incompetence indeed.
Wooshh. Right over your head.
Thats hilarious. Welcome to the forums lol.
My highest level thief is level 3, and I do not think thief damage is OP (Gasp). I think that their damage/health ratio is pretty solid and in-line with the top five classes (Ele, Mes, Thief, Guard, War) in WvW. I have been interviewing thieves in WvW at random. I ask how much health they have, how they like thief, and then if they have ever been 1 shot by a warrior. Most of them say yes. I like that their resource is called “Initiative” because that is what the thief is about. If the thief catches you, then your odds reduce greatly to make it out alive. If you catch THEM, then you can pretty consistently down them from 1,500 range in one hit.
I think the only thing that needs to be looked into is their mobility. I am still deciding between a thief or a warrior. How are thieves in PvE?
Problem being it is hard to catch a class with stealth.
In general I’m not a fan of stealth mechanics in MMOs. It trashes balance by giving one class an out.
Eve handled Stealth correctly, once someone has targeted you you can’t restealth. You have two options: Fight or Flight.
The ability to engage at will with stealth is a huge advantage. Coupling it with the ability to disengage at will is usually overpowering.
Combining Engage/Disengage at will with best in game mobility and burst coupled with culling bug? Game breaking.
If balance in WvW is irreverent then they should disable stealth in it.
They have had no problem disabling other skills when they didn’t work right. Even class mechanic skills.
This. 1,000 times this. The players crying out for nerfs are not interested in game balance. They’re only interested in winning without putting in any effort for it. And supposing the thief does get heavily crippled by the nerf bat, don’t think for a moment they’ll stop at the thief. Any of the other 7 classes will be on their hit lists. all it takes is a single defeat and “ERMAHGERD, OVURPOWERD, NURF!!!11!1one!1one!1!”
Fine, Lets just buff everyone to deal with Thieves!
Every Non thief Class will now do 10x more damage.
Every Non thief Class will now have 10x more HP.No nerfs! So I must be interested in balance right?
The only thing “nerfs” do is separate people who can think logically and those who can not. Power is totally relative. A nerf to one class is a buff to every other. A Buff to one class is a nerf to every other.
The only “advantage” of Buffs only is to soothe the egos of bad players using overpowered classes as a crutch to overcome their own incompetence.
So we should nerf the thief class because one of them dared strike you? Yes of course, makes perfect sense! People don’t want to just nerf the thief now, they want to utterly destroy it. Every time someone gets beaten by a thief, or a warrior, or a mesmer, they come here crying and screaming for nerfs like ignorant little children. Have you been paying any attention to the thief forums? The nerfers have been attacking everything from death blossom, to stealth. They’re dead set on obliterating thief burst, taking away stealth, and generally ruining the thief entirely.
The thief class isn’t overpowered. Could it use some tweaks? Perhaps, but the same could be argued of other classes as well. However, beyond the culling issue, there are little to no issues at all. If you’re going to nerf thief burst, then burst for other classes should be nerfed as well. People so easily overlook all the threads from thief and non-thief players alike about how easy it is to kill thieves. Look through the forums and you’ll find that skilled players have no problems dealing with thieves. But because bad players get beaten by thieves, they MUST be overpowered! HURRAY FOR LOGIC!!1!one!!
By that logic, every class should get nerfed for having ever defeated someone.
Incompetence indeed.
Wooshh. Right over your head.
(edited by Xae.7204)
This. 1,000 times this. The players crying out for nerfs are not interested in game balance. They’re only interested in winning without putting in any effort for it. And supposing the thief does get heavily crippled by the nerf bat, don’t think for a moment they’ll stop at the thief. Any of the other 7 classes will be on their hit lists. all it takes is a single defeat and “ERMAHGERD, OVURPOWERD, NURF!!!11!1one!1one!1!”
Fine, Lets just buff everyone to deal with Thieves!
Every Non thief Class will now do 10x more damage.
Every Non thief Class will now have 10x more HP.
No nerfs! So I must be interested in balance right?
The only thing “nerfs” do is separate people who can think logically and those who can not. Power is totally relative. A nerf to one class is a buff to every other. A Buff to one class is a nerf to every other.
The only “advantage” of Buffs only is to soothe the egos of bad players using overpowered classes as a crutch to overcome their own incompetence.
(edited by Xae.7204)
Thieves need to be nerfed, ASAP.
I’m tired of eating 20k Combos in a kitten bunker spec.
http://i.imgur.com/g3euq.png
That was in a full bunker spec with ~3000 Armor and through protection.Mug needs to go.
Buff P/P for all I care (Yes it is bad), but this instagib kitten needs to go. This is not 2006 WoW, Comboing someone is dumb.
How about a 33k Kill shot , that has to go too?
I don’t remember the last time killshot landed on me. Hell if I’m running P/S on my Engineer I usually make the Warrior eat it himself with Shield-4.
Something being “overpowered” isn’t just about the amount of damage it deals, it is also about how difficult it is to apply that damage. In the case of Kill Shot it has a huge tell, a massive wind up and travel time.
Meanwhile in WvW Thieves will not even load by the time they down you, making it trivial to hit their combo.
Also in my spec Kill shot hits in the 10k range.
Thieves need to be nerfed, ASAP.
I’m tired of eating 20k Combos in a kitten bunker spec.
http://i.imgur.com/g3euq.png
That was in a full bunker spec with ~3000 Armor and through protection.Mug needs to go.
Buff P/P for all I care (Yes it is bad), but this instagib kitten needs to go. This is not 2006 WoW, Comboing someone is dumb.
I completely agree with this. I have been killed several times this weekend, taking over 20k damage in the standard steal-c&d-bs combo. Every piece of armor I have had toughness or vitality and I am speced into a defensive line. It is one thing to do that to someone in full zerker gear, but someone who invests into defense should never be downed almost instantly.
I tried to learn, I made a thief because people who play them said it helps you counter them. I only learned how ridiculous they are and how simply they are to play. There is no set up or skill required to do this combo, it is just a cheap I win combo.
It isn’t a problem with thief class then.
If you are defensive spec’ed then maybe some buff to defensive spec’ed stuff should be in order.
I would have no problems with classes getting a buff that actually invested into defense, however I would not like to see them shrug all defensive investment and still get a buff to defense since they went glass.
If you buff my Bunker build so the point where Thief is “balance” no other class in the game could kill it. It is already very difficult to kill for other classes.
It is much easier to nerf one overpowered “build” than it is to buff the hundreds of other builds in the game to compensate for it.
There is a demographic at play here and that is that rogue type classes attract more Nostromo and Naga users per capita than anything else… reason is to get them right you have to twitch.
Healing classes are for chicks or lads who want to meet/be chicks and tanky types are almost always blokes with goatees.
My tongue may be in my cheek… but there is fire in the smoke. The thief class has chewed a few 50% damage reduction nerfs already and still the tears flow. They will flow after the next round. If it ever gets nerfed hard enough to move this crowd onto mesmers the river of tears will simply drown the lands. My ranger (which is a well-geared level 80 WvW / PvP toon) treats GC thieves as food and walks away from condition thieves (stalemate). And in high level PvP I simply do not see any. PvP is the best test of balance and power.
This game unfortunately pits the best of the FPS twitch community against the non RvR / PvP / WvW community and of course there will be shock and horror at the inhumanity of it all.
Not really, but keep telling your self that.
I routinely play FPSes and even played CS1.6 competitively. Other than Guild Wars 2 I normally play FPS games, like Natural Selection 2 (played the original competitively as well), Planetside 2, and LOL (last season ranked top 20%). I also have a “gaming mouse” that you seem to hold in high regard.
Anytime you think “oh, the ‘problem’ is that only the best people played this class” you are wrong. The Thief doesn’t even have half the skillcap of a class like elementalist. Thieves are complained about because they are overpowered. It ins’t just some “Stealth Class Curse”, believe me no one kittened about release Witch Hunters in WAR.
(edited by Xae.7204)
The removal of Trahearne-or-what’s-his-name and making it truly our personal story would do wonders, I reckon.
Won’t ever happen though.
But still…
I don’t mind Trelagne or whatever. I don’t need to be the one saving the world, I have gotten really tired of that cliche about being the only one who can stand against “Teh Ultmate Evulzzzz!”. It was actually a refreshing change.
The author hit the nail on the head time after time after time. I wish he would have touched on the poor class balance too, but that would sound too controversial and open up attacks.
Edit: I like removing the Trinity, but the problem is they didn’t put a system in its place. They put a clusterkitten in its place instead. Changing the “Trinity” isn’t that unusual or revolutionary. Hell at one point the “Trinity” was “Tanks – Healer – Crowd control”. It seems like they half heatedly tried to return that the CC meta. Groups still have tanks, and they still have “support”/healers and now people need to use CC more.
The worst thing is that at times the encounters feel like they where designed for a Trinity and you are sitting there with a Tank that can’t Tank and a Healer that can’t Heal.
Most of the Story modes and low level dungeons are complete clusterkittens of poorly designed or bugged encounters.
(edited by Xae.7204)
I’m with Choops. The Engineer is the most difficult to master because we have so many fun toys to play with. We have been nerfed to hell and back, but we few who love this class stick with it. The Engineer is the sleeper class.
The problem is I have better things to do than put up with substandard gameplay.
Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have a monopoly on my time. The class is just not fun to play with nerf after nerf after nerf. And frankly I have 0 confidence in the current balance team’s ability to make good decisions.
I’m not going to stand around hoping that 6 months from now they get a clue.