Guild Wars 2

Madara.2378:

this is a bad idea for PvP. sometimes leaving a plaer in downed state can be a strategic move in a team fight or 1v1 and making hum useless for a few more seconds. it’s fine the way it is just fix ele’s down state skills.

a suicide button would really only affect pve, not pvp. if you press it in pvp then that means you let them win and forfeit xD

RaZaC.1963:

Ziggy.7319:

@RaZaC

money sinks are a good thing, and you’ll be glad they are as expensive as they are now, 6 months from now when they seem dirt cheap. in fact, i wish there were more money sinks, like a gambling house (with a daily limit of course), or betting gold on PvP whil Anet takes a cut for the gold sink.

I like that gold is a valuable limited resource instead of having so much wealth you can just throw it around like its nothing.

How are they going to look dirt cheap in 6 months when i dump all my money in them?

Sure i understand why there are money sinks, but especially repairing armor and traveling are both to costly imo atm.

As Wazabi said just earlier, moneysink=inflation control. that’s why they’ll look dirt cheap in the future, due to inflation which is inevitable. goldsinks are a way to slow it down (since it’s impossible to stop). 6 months was just an arbitrary number.

@Wazabi:

I was thinking about the effects of moving down the supply curve, changing the quantity, and thus seeing how it changes the demand price at that quantity.

It will end up raising the price above the vendor price (by how much though is arbitrary/subjective though, which is what we’ve been debating about). However, it causes a deadweight loss, this is because of the clutter which would’ve been up for sale, isn’t, so the graph is like “where’d some of my supplies go?” so it’s not really a bad thing because the unnatural equilibrium price was caused by that clutter in the first place.

So it will definitely go up. by how much though is another story where we’d need to gather actual numbers which maybe i shall do one day when i’m bored.

I’m thinking that the difference in price goes up by the amount of the tax, since when when you move down the supply curve and up the demand curve, not only are you causing a dead weight loss, but you get the rectangular box which is the tax revenue (in this case the game’s listing/tax fee to repost an item again). so the difference in price is the amount of tax. So what I’m thinking is that if an expiration date were placed, the rise in price will be equal to the percent of the tax for item X. However i’m not sure if it would be equal to the change from the tax or half of the tax due to the price floor if it cuts off the lower half or not. however, i think time of expiration might also be a factor as well, as opposed to 1 day, 3 days, a week, or what it is now which is forever.

http://cfacuecards.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/deadweightlossduetorentceiling.jpg
for a visual, i’m talking about the pink rectangle and the vertical difference in price if my words weren’t making enough sense.

So if an item went for 1g (or 100 s), then 15% tax would mean price would go up to 115 s or 107.5 s, if it’s full tax or half tax (due to price floor/ceiling since the vendor price kind of acts as both right now). though i’m not sure how to incorporate time in this case which i’m sure it is a factor. But I think i’m onto something, maybe you’ll be able to figure it out?

CarP.3401:

You are just used to TP like in other games (I will say WoW, because that is what you are aiming for).
Trash in BL? Why on earth is that bothering you? It is not like you see every single little item on there and you have to scroll thru every one of it to find what you want. You have “Searh” option, you have “Filters”, etc etc.

All of you must see this is not an MMO like any other, it is different, everything is different. Ppl will soon complain that there are no quest givers and stuff like that.

It’s not that all of that extra trash is visually unappealing. it’s that it’s literally warping the quantity supplied and the equilibrium price.

Simply solution is to have tell the players what there profit will be for the price they wish to list it at.

EXAMPLE:

item to vendor gives you 25 copper
someone lists if for 26 copper
the game now tells them they will make a -3 copper profit
26 × 15% = 3.9 (4)
26-4=22
25-22=3

How it should appear if done correctly

25 copper to vendor
player lists for 50 copper

50 × 15% = 7.5 (8)
50-8 = 42
42-25 = 17 copper profit

Also make a removal fee that would really hurt the players pocket book for those that are using it as a trash bin

if an item is listed for 20 days. have it removed from the TP for the vendor cost of the item.

EXAMPLE:

25 copper to vendor
player lists for 26 copper
after 20 days have the 25 copper removed from the players bank/backpack where ever they have their money.

So instead of getting 25 copper from the vendor they will loss the 25 copper for every item that had in the TP for 20 days. (give them a warning saying they are getting close to 20 days on items they have listed in the TP.)

this is pretty much what i’m trying to strive for. because right now, anyone selling on the TP is actually losing money. (at least for most listed prices, there might be a few items i havent seen that are above vendor price)

I love the current trading system.

if there was one : , (

@RaZaC

money sinks are a good thing, and you’ll be glad they are as expensive as they are now, 6 months from now when they seem dirt cheap. in fact, i wish there were more money sinks, like a gambling house (with a daily limit of course), or betting gold on PvP whil Anet takes a cut for the gold sink.

I like that gold is a valuable limited resource instead of having so much wealth you can just throw it around like its nothing.

Clockrt.7049:

Ahh excellent, so whilst there are a glut of people trying to profit off buy/sell orders, there is still good profit to be made?

imo the margin is so small if any at all right now it’s hard to say, since things are pretty much selling at vendor price. but if you can find certain items that seem profitable, go for it.

I myself am waiting for the economy to stabilize a bit first before attempting to do anything. though you can make some money if you take the risk, i’d just personally dont want to take the risk so i’m waiting a bit myself.

plus i still need to reach 80, i’ve been leveling so slowly cause i’ve been super busy for the past month and a half.

Wazabi.1439:

Any artificially designed market/mechanism will have its constrains and imperfection. Just need to find the most efficient way to make the most out of it…that’s the key to everything.

that’s the key……..

…….to my heart!

(sorry, I had to)

Also, when trying to make a profit from buying/selling orders, make sure that profit can make up for the listing and tax fee. otherwise it may look like you’re making profit at first glance, but you’ll be losing money if the profit isn’t great enough to cover those.

Wazabi.1439:

@Ziggy
We’re making progress here. I’m not so much interested in the changes in mechanism. Rather, I’m more interested in the underlying theory. I’ve spoken to a fellow classmate earlier about our debate, and he pointed out a good point that I’ve overlooked: The way the curves shifts.

Supply and Demand is a function of price. Through the function, you draw the curve. However, price is an endogenous factor…thus changes in price doesn’t shift the curve…instead the point just moves along the curve. Can’t believe I overlooked this…would had made explanations easier. Now, you were talking about stock. Changes in stock changes the price…reducing stock raises the price…raising the price result in a point that moves along the demand curve, and another point that moves along the supply curve to the now higher price. At this higher price, the demanded quantity reduces, but supply quantity increases, and the 2 points will eventually converges to the intersect of the curve, which is equilibrium.

Question now is what determines the equilibrium? That depends on what will cause the curve to shift. These are exogenous factors. Introduction of a new recipe that requires the item will shift the demand curve to the right, more demand at any given price. Reducing the drop rate will shift the supply curve to the left.

Note that there is a small difference in MMO and real world. In real world, supply will adjust accordingly to the price (hence moving along the supply line)…but in MMO…it is semi-independent of the price…in that weather an item sells for 10 or 100, the supply is still the same because the loot generation doesn’t change. Only changes is if price is low, more will be vendor-ed or salvaged (depending on how low)…which moves the point along the supply curve.

Can you understand the dynamics I’ve described? That is the reason no changes whatsoever will affect the price unless the changes are exogenous factors.

*a small caveat to that: removing transaction price theoretically reduces the cost of selling, hence we should see prices being 15% cheaper…but it introduces a lot of variation to the market, not necessarily a good thing
*I like how this is going…it is a good mental exercise to test my own understanding of economics theory.

I follow you completely.

I just wish there’s something we can do so the price wasn’t equal to the vendor price. So far every item i’ve checked on the TP is equal to vendor price, thus i end up vendoring the item instead because i’d gain more money selling to an npc rather than to trade it with players at the cost of a listing fee and tax.

LadyFearghus.3406:

I would probably title it “Accept Defeat” not suicide. But I agree, sometimes when you know you can’t survive it would be nice to just “Accept Defeat” or “Surrender”

No, i want to make soccer moms angry. we should label it suicide >:)

i’d like to be able to make font bigger and mess with the chat box more myself.

i like making the chat box huge, cause otherwise i’ll end up ignoring it completely lol xD

Clockrt.7049:

Hey guys,
Im relatively new to the game and this is also my first forum post, so go easy on me!
Essentially ive always enjoyed making money in games, i remember buy/selling in guild wars 1 and being pretty wealthy. For some reason i cant seem to anticipate movements in the TP. I am about to hit level 30, but will be powering on to 80 in the next week and im looking for good tips on how to work the TP, what items are best for price fluctuations or even farming to make a large profit.
Any help will be appreciated!

crafting mats in any and all games are always in demand so they have a good inventory turnover ratio. plus you can start off with a low budget with them so it’s a good place to start.

@Shawnbuzu:

the amount of ingame gold floating around is fine. it’s a new game, the amount of gold you have on you is supposed to be a low budget right now. if it wasn’t, and everything was super cheap, then buying stuff would be worthless and mind as well be free for you, definitely not Anet’s intent. just wait till months from now and you start making alts, you’ll see the difference when you’re able to feed your alts with your main’s accumulated wealth.

the only thing i dont like is there’s no point in me selling on the TP since i’m better off vending it for the same price without a listing and tax fee.

Kumu Honua.2751:

I still say you should not be able to utilize the trading post without being at a trading post agent. Whether that is in a town or with the gem purchased express.

Would reduce the use of the trading post as a low cost convenience bank, encourage perhaps some more gem shop usage, and give a reason to that gem shop item.

this would also be quite helpful to reduce the supply a bit.

Masterpyro.4310:

C.O.D. mail is a basic feature that I could develop in under an hour, and I’m not even a professional so imagine how fast they could do it(unless they get paid hourly but i doubt thats the case).

This^^

People tend to think that the simplest feature takes months of mental and coding work to create. which causes them to argue it not being worthy enough of the time spent when it literally takes no time at all.

My friend who’s hosted his own Ragnarok online private server has even made not just a Cash on delivery system, but a trade system by himself, he doesn’t even know much about coding except for some basic stuff you can pretty much google for. since trading is just the transfer of item codes.

let me zoom the camera out more please.

Maxster.4521:

If you are allowed to change the price without the need to relist it again, people would post the item up for as low as possible so their 5% fee is also as low as possible, then up the price immediately to the market value of the item in order to get around the 5% fee as much as possible.

And that was an answer for

There is a simple fix for this problem: Allow sellers to lower their prices for free.

Laughable. Learn to read.

…uhm….okay….. o.O
pretty sure that answers his question on why you shouldn’t be able to change a price once you’ve posted it. you should’ve pointed out to me what gimmethegepgun pointed out instead, then you’d be able to point that out. it’s obvious that i know he’d want to change price.

And the answer to that is still as unbelievably simple as it was last time: you charge them the difference in listing fees if they increase the price, meaning they still pay the exact same listing fee as if they had listed it at the higher value in the first place.

Oh I didn’t see that part.
while that’d help with the listing price, it still wouldn’t stop that other guy or people from undercutting again though.

KDragon.3208:

I made a comment about this in another thread, and I know there are other discussions about this. I have read through these discussions, and they are polluted with toxic amounts of ignorance. I would like to get straight to the point here.

Expensive orders being undercut by 1 copper (less than 0.01% of the order value) makes the 5% listing fee act as a punishment for being first to list. It does not encourage cheaper prices or a healthier market.

There is a simple fix for this problem: Allow sellers to lower their prices for free.

This will prevent micro-cutters from exploiting the 5% listing fee as protection and will allow sellers to retaliate by adjusting their orders down. In fact the market will be healthier, as prices on over-valued items will be driven down quickly until the market reaches an equilibrium.

Also, the trade post should enforce a minimum price difference between orders. Even something little as 1% would prevent people from exploiting micro-cutting. That is 1c on orders of 1s, and 10s on orders of 10g. I don’t think that is going to be a problem for anyone.

Just these two changes would immensely help in creating a healthier market for high-value items on the Tradepost. These changes have zero drawbacks, and will not allow people to circumvent the 15% sales tax. I’m not the first one to suggest these fixes, but I think they deserve their own thread for better discussion and visibility. Thank you for reading!

P.S: Please add a 1-2 week expiration date on orders. Expired orders should have their listing fees refunded, of course. Your Tradepost is clogged with tens of thousands of useless orders that will never be filled, and it doesn’t help on weekends to have a bunch of junk orders clogging the prices screen (and your servers).

copy/paste of mine from another thread asking for the same thing:

No, and you shouldn’t be able to. Here is why:

If you are allowed to change the price without the need to relist it again, people would post the item up for as low as possible so their 5% fee is also as low as possible, then up the price immediately to the market value of the item in order to get around the 5% fee as much as possible.

if they want to undercut you, then that’s competition, tough luck.
————————-

I do agree on some expiration, things shouldn’t last forever up on there. but not for server space reasons, as that’s not really an issue.

Expiration? Don’t even get me started…

I laughed xD

Omg…. I’m having midterm tommorow and you are giving me nightmare…

what was up with the “If you’re still in college…” comment earlier when you are too?

Though I am going to have to agree with Wazabi on this one, you shouldn’t be allowed to change the prices after you have posted as it would get you around the 5% listing fee.

Wazabi.1439:

1. Demand curve for trash item is very flat…and supply curve for trash item is steep. Draw it out, and shift supply left. Price doesn’t goes up very much did it?
2. Introducing the dynamics of economics. We’ve only cleared the stock, but not the source of the supply, which is drop. Granted, supply is reduced, people start selling to vendor to clear the clutter. Now, price raise. People will react to this price raise as well. A rational being will sell it through TP now because it is more than vendor…and since the supply rate (how easy the game spawns trash loot) is still the same, and because demand curve is very flat (hence insensitive to price change, low elasticity), price will get push down again, towards the equilibrium price (mat cost price or vendor, whichever higher).

Thus, in the Short Run, you are correct…but when you look at it on the Long Run, it doesn’t change.

Those slopes (as of now) are indeed inelastic. but as the clutter is cleared out, it would also be changing their elasticity when getting rid of the saturation of supply.
This is because the market is saturated, at this point the market is no longer generating demand. This can be due to a decreased need, due to competition, or any other factors. In this case it’s the competition from the forgotten items causing the saturation. One of the effects of saturation is altering the elasticity of supply, get rid of the saturation and the elasticity goes back to normal. Remember, there is a difference between a lot of supply and a saturated supply, you seem to think it’s just a lot in which case you’d be right.

Honestly though, I think we’re both on the right track, and there really is no way to tell how effective or ineffective it would be to clear out the clutter by adding an expiration date until it happens.

Though I can say this, it would definitely make it easier for those who’s prices end up being in the middle/higher due to undercutters and people who dont care what price they sell for, since there is less people in line the line will catch up to them faster and they’ll actually be able to finally sell some things.

You may not agree on my methods to get the price to be at least higher than the vendor price and that’s fine with me. But, do you at least agree that it should be higher than the vendor price? (due to future inflation while the prices stay stuck at the vendor price forever.) As of right now, there is no logical reason to sell on the TP while prices are equal to the vendor price as you have to pay a listing fee and tax and wait for the sell, when you don’t need to pay any of that and you get your money instantly at a vendor (yet people still are selling them for less money up there, i guess for convenience while leveling).

Wazabi.1439:

I did not want the price to become anything. I’m merely stating how the price will evolve base on economic theory and fundamentals. You argued that clearing the clutter will make the price higher, I’m clarifying that it will not. If you think I’m wrong, justify it by providing an alternative explanation to what I’ve said on the previous post. Argue on my point…not my intentions….back it with economics theory, and show it with an example.

If say posting something up expires after 3 days instead of being able to leave something up there forever it forces people to stay on track with their own inventories. If an item is allowed to stay up forever, people can and will leave it there out of laziness, forgetfulness, or not wanting to pay another listing. If it expires after a while and gets sent back to you, if you want to repost it you’ll have to pay another listing fee and consider a change in price to list it for which would keep the market competitive and discourage a lot of the clutter when faced with paying another listing fee.

As such a lot of the space is now cleaned out, this means less supply of said item up on the TP, which means supply will shift left on the graph and therefore raising the price.

Wazabi.1439:

You earn lower profit selling +1c, you don’t lose money. From that transaction, 15% of the money gets sinked. I can sell all my trash on TP at +1c and assuming it all sells, my wealth will still increase…just not as much as those that sells it to vendor. If it doesn’t sell, they lose the 5% listing fee…but the item can still be taken down to be vendored.

of course your wealth will still increase from a sale, even if you only get 1 copper for it .

you even said yourself in this quote that you would get more money from selling to a vendor instead of a player due to the TP’s money sink. if an item sold for 100 copper to the vendor and the TP, you’d want to sell to the vendor instead because you’d get your 100 copper. in the TP you’ll recieve less from listing price/tax

How would this affect the future? Weather the clutter clears or not does not determine the supply and demand in the long run…only the actual drop rate and usefulness of the item does.

Supply is the amount of product in the market that people are willing to sell. Just because an item exists does not mean it is necessarily a part of the market supply, unless that player has a willingness to sell that specific item. As such, in order to determine the “market supply” of which people are willing to sell to others and not keep for themselves which would not be part of the market, the best and universal way is to look at the TP since that is when an item becomes visible to the rest of the population and becomes added to markets supply.

If all of the clutter is reduced from an expiration time, you are correct in that the item doesn’t go away. it does indeed still exist. However, that item may or may not go back and be reposted on the TP. If it’s repost, it becomes part of the supply again, if not then it is not because that player has decided to withdraw it from the market for now and is not willing to sell.

I would like it if you could search by someone’s name as well.

Let me just ask you this Wazabi,

It seems you want the prices to become equal to the vendor price. explain to me why that is a good thing. As of right now, every item i see listed on the TP is equal or 1c above the vendor price. even worse, those people are losing money from the listing fee as opposed to just vendoring them item instead. If this trend (of everything being equal to the vendor price) continues, how do you think it would effect the future a year from now, when more gold exists floating around the market?

Wazabi.1439:

Zig, you need to think deeper. Things you read from news paper or some other sources overly simplifies a lot of things

those “things” were real life effects of inflation, unless you’re trying to insinuate they never happen.

that might be why you’re getting incomplete idea. Many of the things you say is not unfounded or wrong…just incomplete. You often look at how 1 variable (Y) changes by changing another variable (X1) assuming the other variables (X2) affecting it stays constant. In that sense, you’re correct…but often changes in X1 affects X2 as well, and you didn’t take that into consideration.

I’m assuming you’re talking about the increase in population. This is true if and only if the population keeps increasing and at the proper rate to make up for inflation. After a game’s release the population of new people joining increases, but over time that increase begins to flatten as the people who would’ve bought they game have already. even with people joining it won’t stop inflation as it’s inevitable, you can slow it down, but not stop it.

Inflation is a complex mechanism, people spend years just to learn and understand all the factors. If money increase by 10%, but population increase by 10%, production increases as well. Assuming production increases proportionately by 10% in a simple economy, then there won’t be an inflation.

you’re forgetting that those new people will also become contributing factors to inflation as well. the new people join will be selling their trash drops in the TP at the current market price to other players than from the past when prices were lower. but more gold will still be constantly generated through drops.

The cost of an item is not pegged to anything. If an item is pegged at +1c, and cluttering, it means the item is not selling fast enough…that means not enough people demands it even at +1c. If there isn’t any vendor price (vendor don’t buy it), it would go even lower. Using whatever mechanism to remove them from the market or even encourage them to sell it at vendor (to remove the clutter) won’t change things much. If anyone is willing to buy the item above vendor price, then they are going to realize it and start selling in the TP again to push the price down.

the item is not selling enough not because the demand isn’t great enough, but because supply is too great (though it’s essentially the same thing but reworded, I’m wording it this way because the supply is mainly where the issue stems from). the cost of an item begins to be pegged to the vendor price as the supply becomes way too much, driving prices down. you are right though in that if there was no vendor, it would go even lower, luckily the vendor does set a price floor (but it’s below the equilibrium), since prices keep dropping but there’s no point in selling below the vendor price, prices become equal to vendor or +1c above the vendor. If items are able to stay up forever and clog the market, prices will continue to fall, that’s the problem.

I’m gonna have to ask you to trust me on this, this is what I do. If you’re still in college and have access to an economics professor, run it through with him, I believe he can provide with a better explanation in person.

Trying to attack credibility here for a game’s economic system which is much simpler than real world isn’t going to help you here so long as I’m providing a proper analysis. Nice try though.

Plus a CoD can still deduct a tax.

No, and you shouldn’t be able to. Here is why:

If you are allowed to change the price without the need to relist it again, people would post the item up for as low as possible so their 5% fee is also as low as possible, then up the price immediately to the market value of the item in order to get around the 5% fee as much as possible.

I bet if Anet allowed player to player trading, it would dramatically decrease the amount of scamming reports they get.

Yawg.1294:

Wazabi.1439:

Also there’s NO WAY direct trading option would have any impact on the global economy.

Yes there is actually. TP is a form of gold sink to control inflation. Adding P2P without cost diminishes the inflation control mechanism. Adding a cost to P2P makes it no difference than TP.

If someone wants to sell a very rare or buy a very rare item, they can post it on TP with no risk of scam, and get done with it. Everyone can see it, and anyone can fill that order even when you’re offline. The alternative in P2P is you’ll have to advertise your intention with WTB/WTS in chat actively. TP seems more efficient and easy.

It can’t be that – trading by mail is also getting around the gold sink. A direct trade interface would be simply a safer way to do that. I’m sure that over 99% of trade volume would still happen on the TP anyway so the effect on the economy would be completely negligible.

This, one hundreds times over. Mail would also be going around the taxes wouldn’t it? at least make it safer for the players for something that already exists then.

Wazabi.1439:

Money supply won’t inflate cost of items IF AND ONLY IF player population increases proportionately.

Tell that to the Germans.

If money supply doubles, that money’s worth becomes halved. If a loaf of bread cost $1, then after the money supply doubled, it would now cost $2 because it would take twice as much to pay for it since the money value has been halved. Essentially you are still paying the same amount of money though, so it’s not making much of a difference. Another example would be how much goods cost back in the 50’s as compared to now.

The prices of goods need to match the rate of inflation. Otherwise, if the prices stays pegged to the vendor price, then in the future as money supply increases people will have tons and tons of gold, but everything will be the cheap cost of the vendor price. This is why the market price equilibrium should be determined by what a products value is currently worth in the market. If you can place things up in the TP forever, as it clutters those products prices will forever be stuck in the past, then if you want to post up an item you’ll have to compete with the prices of the past which are stuck in the future and thus you will put up that item for sale at the price that it is stuck at.

i say this because the player population will not increase proportionally. it will be a fast increase when a game releases, and will then flatten out from there.

For gifting try this:

1) mail your friend the amount of gold it takes to convert to the gems you want to give them.

2) your friend takes the gold they got from you as a gift and converts them to the gems, and buys w/e they need from the store.

i just wish that when you place the first portal you get a some sort of count down to let you know how much time to place your 2nd portal before it reverts.

also if you’re too far away from the 1st portal, itd be nice if the 2nd one would be red when trying to place it, so you know if it’s out of range.

Okay Janson, you answered by saying that we can just report the player. but whats the point if it does nothing to protect us?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Scammed-in-game/first#post111719

GaileGray.9587:

Tase — it’s really difficult, nearly impossible, for our team to intercede in what are, essentially, “Gentlemen’s agreements.” You said the price was “too good to be true” and yet you accepted it and got burned. Like the guy in the alley who says he’s going to sell you a “Rolex” watch for 10 bucks?

I sympathize, we all sympathize, but getting in the middle of every transaction is just not in the cards. Reporting the situation is good — it makes us aware of the unscrupulous players and, once highlighted, may allow us to track a history of bad behavior that results in their removal from the game. But it’s truly unlikely that we will be able to give that item or gold back for you.

In all transactions, use caution and care, just as you do in real life.

at least give us a cash on delivery.

This is exactly why we need player to player trading or a cash on delivery.

so wait it minute. Jason Smalling says:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Player-to-Player-trading/first

Kazim.2043:

For example one player advertising an item on shout, and made a deal with another player through chat. He sent the item through mail, but the second player did not pay back.

Is it considered officially as a scam?
Is it an official offence that might have consequences?

Yes, you can report that player as Scamming.

but then you won’t even help the people? what’s up with this?

Wazabi.1439:

Also there’s NO WAY direct trading option would have any impact on the global economy.

Yes there is actually. TP is a form of gold sink to control inflation. Adding P2P without cost diminishes the inflation control mechanism. Adding a cost to P2P makes it no difference than TP.

If someone wants to sell a very rare or buy a very rare item, they can post it on TP with no risk of scam, and get done with it. Everyone can see it, and anyone can fill that order even when you’re offline. The alternative in P2P is you’ll have to advertise your intention with WTB/WTS in chat actively. TP seems more efficient and easy.

they can still put a tax on trades. the only way around the tax then would be if they bartered items instead of buying/selling.

if you’re paranoid people are going to try to barter with so much risk just to get that extra %, then can we at least agree on a cash on delivery? the cash on delivery system can still use a tax just like the TP, and you can’t barter through it. there, done and done.

Wazabi.1439:

Not exactly…what I’m saying is that equilibrium is at the lowest possible price, which is cost. But since we have an artificial floor price which is for now higher than cost, thus it is the equilibrium.

The intrinsic cost of an item is just the materials it is made of in the game. If you can salvage a trash item for 10c worth of mats, then the cost of the it is 10c (slightly different for crafted items). Off course, it the finished goods are in higher demand than the supply, the clearing price will be higher. But if the supply is greater or that there’s simply no demand, it will converge to 10c. No one will sell it below 10c because they are better off salvaging and sell the mats. No one will pay more than 10c for it because there is little to no demand for the trash loot, and plenty of supply and substitution.

When the currency inflates, mat price will inflate. on a 10% inflation, say mat price inflates by that much, then so will the equilibrium price of the trash loot….to 11c.

In our case where there’s a price floor, the only reason the price of the trash will increase above the vendor price is when the cost of mats it is salvageable is more than vendor price. Remember, this is not a price ceiling, it’s a price floor. Another way for trash loot to increase above vendor price is that if there are people in the market willing to pay more than that, and there’s an insufficient supply. Excess supply will result in undercutting because it is more beneficial to sell at above vendor price, which will then depress the price to equilibrium.

People will be willing to pay more than the 10c required to make such an item:
-because they themselves haven’t leveled a certain profession
-the service
-convenience
-and then basic supply/demand since the value of a good is how we choose to value it, and how many utils they would personally gain versus the cost.

If prices for things were equal to the cost in the real world, no one would make any money to put food on the table for their family cause they’d keep breaking even. I paid $8 for say a meal, it cost them far less to make it, but i’m willing to pay more than it cost because i don’t have to gather the ingredients and cook it myself, plus i’m saving time.

I’m saying mat prices won’t inflate with the currency because of the supply backlog that is having an item up indifinetly, and will be pegged to the vendor price, which is the problem because it should inflate with gold prices to keep even but it’s not going to.

and yes it is technically a price floor. I called/compared it to a ceiling though since it’s more like it’ll be stuck at that price mainly and it’s below what the real equilibrium should be, since price ceilings are below equilibrium usually and price floors are usually above. so even though it’s a price floor since theres no point at selling below vednor price, i compared it to a ceiling cause it acts more like one in nature.

Wazabi.1439:

some explanations here in respond to your post:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/GW2-economics-for-dummies/first#post110902

But I’m gonna go more technical on this since you ask.
The supply demand curve you’re describing is a very simplified version to help students understand the relationship. Different goods have a different function, resulting in a different curve. When price elasticity is taken into account, the steepness of the curve’s slope will be different. What I’m saying is that the demand curve is a lot flatter horizontally. It is so flat due to the huge number of drops, and perfect substitution (alternatives) to that item.

To put it in an example, suppose a market demands 10unit of item A. The supply is 1000 unit, so price gets pressed down. Your argument is that by reducing the supply to 100, price would increase, that’s correct. However, market still demands only 10. If selling item A in TP generates more value than to vendor, then players will still sell in TP, pushing the price down to the vendor level, in which they are indifferent into selling in TP or vendor. Note that item B serves a similar purpose…so you’re not only competing to sell item A against other item A seller, but also item B. Add to the fact that gears marginally improves your performance, and leveling time is not exponential, that again reduces the reliance on low level gear that drops like flies. That’s why you have a flat demand curve for trash loots.

If you want to make money in TP, play the crafting materials, lv80 exotics, or anything that people are having trouble finding, and just drop your trash to vendor.

Of course it will pushed down to vendor level due to the (artificial) surplus in supply. this means that price would be pretty much tied to vendor price which is below the natural equilibrium, this resembles (while it is not because the nature is quite different, but resembles) a price ceiling that is set below equilibrium price. instead of the government forcing you to sell for less, the surplus of forgotten goods ends up tying you to vendor which would be less than what you should get in a more current market.

This ends up causing a dead weight loss, which is when a good or service isnt being provided in the market efficiently because supply is so great it isnt properly matching demand.

I think our difference is that you want the market to be tied to the vendor price.

But I’m saying it shouldn’t, it should be somewhere above the vendor price because it isn’t natural. other wise the cost of items will always stay the same. this is actually a bad thing as their prices won’t go up with game’s inflation. once’s more and more gold is generated for the market, the price of items will end up going up to match the increase of gold in the market. that way everything will proportionally stay at a same price (but with different numbers.

If market items stay tied with vendor prices, then those items will always remain at that price forever while the inflation of gold will cause everyone to accumulate tons of wealth, but it will not matter cause everything will have stayed super cheap instead of going up with them.

But what if the demand for such item is so low that even if the supply is being taken out of the market supply there is still excess supply?

And that there is the problem, since everything clutters. If people attempted to bought up item X in hopes the price would increase, it will never happen unless a ton of people with buying power banded together and tried to monopolize. otherwise, trying by yourself will do nothing, since there is so much supply.

And thank you for the compliment I actually have read quite a few for micro and macro for some college classes, took AP econ and got a 4 on the AP exam, i’m now working on managerial economics.

I think of the sandwich and get hungry >:(

Wazabi.1439:

Putting a time constrain will remove clutter…but won’t magically makes you sell for higher price. Trash item is still worth trash value. You can post it at a higher value, but will anyone actually buys it? The +1c price for trash item is at equilibrium…cost price +1. The cost price here being vendor price. That’s the equilibrium for a perfectly competitive market.

If everyone only wants to buy and no one wants to sell, what do you think will happen to the price? Price will go up again. What you’re seeing for trash items is the opposite…everyone has every reason to sell it but not to buy it.

true, the change in demand (people buying more) would raise the price. however, since it’s saturated with excess supplies, that same amount of supplies still exists within the market, unless that person is actually planning on using that said item for a real purpose. otherwise if they’re going to be trying to resell it, so will everyone else. that price will be stuck at an artificial equilibrium because that supply still exists, even if people buy it.

and no, im not advocating you try to play the market. i’m saying the price just won’t go up to a natural equilibrium cause its stuck at an artificial one from the clutter, unless a mass surge of people actually need that item for a true purpose.

it may waver though, but only at a low point, still lower than it would if items were kept more current and had an expiration date so they arent forgotten.

edit: as the clutter is cleared out, it would keep the economy at a current, more controlled, natural state.

Your understanding on economics is flawed.

then please explain to me how excess supplies won’t saturate the market and cause a price crash to where the value of the item would become undervalued as the supply curve shifts to the right.

The only reason for me to use P2P is to avoid transaction cost. But now that I need to spend time to advertise my stuffs, I’ll rather just pay the cost and let the TP sort it out. It an item sells for 1g in TP, the max profit difference I can make from P2P is the savings of 15s…which I don’t really care. It tax applies for P2P, even less reason to go through the hassle.

I think some people actually thinks this will allow them to sell at a higher price…. or are just blaming the TP for not being able to make money.

then else do you suggest we be able to transfer items between “individuals” instead of anonymous people without the risk of one sided mail?

Well said OP i completely agree.

whats worse is the TP will be clogged with all of the people that don’t care about keeping up with their sales and losing track, undercutters, etc…

since items will stay up on the TP forever, the economy will become very stale and prices will hit rock bottom. every incentive to buy, and no reason to sell.

My biggest problem with the trading post is that items stay up indifinetly. There should be a max limit of 1-3 days. Otherwise the TP is going to become clogged, and the economy very very stale, to the point that you won’t be able to sell anything at all, and if you do, only for a few copper. it will also allow the market to competitive and it will find a natural equilibrium price for items. otherwise it’ll be clogged with undercutters who don’t care about prices at all and just want to get rid of stuff. As such, everyone in the economy will have every reason to buy, but no reason to sell.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Player-to-Player-trading/first#post109809

there’s a big thread on this right now^^^

1) “It will be impossible to regulate the prices”.

This is wrong since supply and demand still exist. it’s not like the TP will be going away, the trading post will still be the king of trading to and for the masses and will determine an item’s equilibrium price. in most cases the TP will be used, trading is for cases where you’ll want to trade to a specific individual, that item will still be of the same value.

2) “there’s the TP and mail so it’s easier to track hackers”

Again false, hackers can be tracked just as easily through trade transactions.

3) “there won’t be any taxes on trades like the TP does”

Well, why not add taxes to trading? I’ve seen tons of mmo’s impose a tax on player to player trades.

4) “you can just use the mail or TP anyways”

The mail requires putting a lot of trust into other people, good luck with that. Maybe there was at the very least, a cash on delivery system then trading may not be needed, but it would still be very nice and there really are no negative effects at all for implementing it. As for the TP, everything is bunched up anonymously so you can’t trade to a specific individual, and even if you could, it could be bought from some random other player when you post it that wasn’t intended to be the buyer in your roundabout transaction.

5) “but there is a negative side effect, the WTS and WTB spam”

Again, false. The trading post existing by itself will get rid of most of this, since if a player wants something or to sell something they can go there so long if they don’t care who buys their items or vice versa. even without a trading system, you still see people doing this right now, and people always will.

My biggest problem with the trading post is that items stay up indifinetly. There should be a max limit of 1-3 days. Otherwise the TP is going to become clogged, and the economy very very stale, to the point that you won’t be able to sell anything at all, and if you do, only for a few copper. it will also allow the market to competitive and it will find a natural equilibrium price for items. otherwise it’ll be clogged with undercutters who don’t care about prices at all and just want to get rid of stuff. As such, everyone in the economy will have every reason to buy, but no reason to sell.

SourLime.1258:

OliShoey.3071:

Please Fix Stealth.
By this I mean when a mob or player is channeling a spell at you and you Stealth the channel should be broken just as if you ran out of line of sight.

I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve died because this is the case. I can understand AoE hitting us while we are stealthed. That is perfectly viable. But using stealth while a mob channels at you should not continue to do damage!

^^^^^^^^ This!
Thief is an escape artist, if he cant escape channel attacks with stealth that’s a huge hole in his skill set.

My only other issue with Thief is that when stealthing through steal you will occasionally auto-attack out of stealth only to go a normal attack rather then a stealth attack.

i second this. stealthing should make the other person who is targeting you to untarget you and break their cast.

Sixpax.8360:

To free up inventory space without visiting an NPC.

this^^

some other reasons is that people aren’t smart enough to check the item to the npc vendor price. combine this with the nature of the TP of bundling items up anonymously telling you exactly whats the lowest price, and items being allowed to stay up indifinetly clogging the system to drive prices down further than they should.

First off let me clear some common misconceptions for those against trading:

1) “It will be impossible to regulate the prices”.

This is wrong since supply and demand still exist. it’s not like the TP will be going away, the trading post will still be the king of trading to and for the masses and will determine an item’s equilibrium price. in most cases the TP will be used, trading is for cases where you’ll want to trade to a specific individual, that item will still be of the same value.

2) “there’s the TP and mail so it’s easier to track hackers”

Again false, hackers can be tracked just as easily through trade transactions.

3) “there won’t be any taxes on trades like the TP does”

Well, why not add taxes to trading? I’ve seen tons of mmo’s impose a tax on player to player trades.

4) “you can just use the mail or TP anyways”

The mail requires putting a lot of trust into other people, good luck with that. Maybe there was at the very least, a cash on delivery system then trading may not be needed, but it would still be very nice and there really are no negative effects at all for implementing it. As for the TP, everything is bunched up anonymously so you can’t trade to a specific individual, and even if you could, it could be bought from some random other player when you post it that wasn’t intended to be the buyer in your roundabout transaction.

5) “but there is a negative side effect, the WTS and WTB spam”

Again, false. The trading post existing by itself will get rid of most of this, since if a player wants something or to sell something they can go there so long if they don’t care who buys their items or vice versa. even without a trading system, you still see people doing this right now, and people always will.

Latinkuro.9420:

Player to player trading would make the TP obsolete and it would make it impossible to regulate prices, there would be no price history and anyone can ask for an item whatever they fee like it, no the only players that want this are the ones that feel that their items are worth a lot more and wish to circumvent the TP.

GW2 Trading Post is almost perfect, the game does NOT need direct trading between players, case dismissed.

The TP only needs, armor sub catagories by armor type and the ability to preview before you buy.

No it would not. the value of item x would still be the same compared to the global economy due to supply and demand.
Since the TP is already dumbed down for most people, the trade window can even show how much an item is going for in the TP for all I care.

The problem is that if you want to trade to a specific individual for any reason, you reasonably can’t unless you have the complete and utmost trust in them to not scam you from the mail.

My biggest problem with the trading post is that items stay up indifinetly. There should be a max limit of 1-3 days. Otherwise the TP is going to become clogged, and the economy very very stale, to the point that you won’t be able to sell anything at all, and if you do, only for a few copper. it will also allow the market to competitive and it will find a natural equilibrium price for items. otherwise it’ll be clogged with undercutters who don’t care about prices at all and just want to get rid of stuff. As such, everyone in the economy will have every reason to buy, but no reason to sell.

way points are fine. wait for the games inflation to kick in a little and more money is circulating in the market. when you make a future alt character and it sells stuff on the TP, you’ll get more gold for it while the way points will still cost the same amount as from the game’s release date.

this thread is pretty insightful about the TP and P2P:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/62780-how-to-fix-the-trading-post/

Trading Post – I know everyone is all jazzed about the TP and how it currently is but I personally think it lacks character or fore thought.
Socialization – In other TP’s we are able to see who is selling an item and who purchased your items. As a crafter, this is very valuable because over time you can build up both a supply chain for raw materials and a customer base which translates into some really great relationships that can even transcend the game.
Supply vs Demand – Before people accuse me of wanting to “play the market” lets be frank. With the TP global, its near impossible for demand to exceed supply on basic materials which in turn keeps the cost of mid-tier items artificially low as well. As a result many items even some rares are available for 1cp more than vendor prices and likely will never come off that cost. That may sound good to the buyers but the sellers are eventually going to get tired of putting effort into crafting items for little to no profit and stop making them all together. Once that happens the TP will no longer be the Trading Post it will just be the Trash post.
Load Distribution – I’ve been a datacenter manager for over 16 years now. Lets face it whatever is running behind the global TP isnt cutting it. Whether its some fancy GRID DB, an Oracle RAC cluster or a giant monolithic DB, its puking daily. Here we are 3 weeks after release and I cant buy Iron Ore because the listings wont populate again. Thats silly. If we cant get it under control then make the TP world based and distribute the load
Item Expiration – I have items that have been up on the TP for over a week now. If we simply expired the items after 7 days the TP would be able to free up what is clearly needed resources to deal with more recent trades that have infinitely more potential to actually contribute to the economy.
PS. The TP went “down for maintenance” while I was drafting this. EXPIRE STUFF

I second this. the TP is ridiculous.
It is literally idiot proof, and this is actually a problem. as a buyer, yay good for you, but there would be no incentive to sell anything. this is mainly due to undercutters who people who don’t care what they sell for what price so long as they get rid of it. combined with the fact that items don’t expire on the TP it’s going to drive prices down dramatically. so low, you mind as well npc it instead. the prices would not fluctuate at all due to items not expiring and cluttering up the TP and driving prices to an all time low. if an item were to expire say 1-3 days after being posted, it would clear up the TP tremendously, and prevent prices from being artificially lower than they should be. this is because the TP would actually take a little bit of effort, and it would make people actually think about the prices instead of passively selling/buying. yes, theoretically everyone is supposed to think on the margin, but realistically no.

the second part is me replying to the first guy.

here’s another thread on the debate:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/56322-trading-inspecting-dueling-and-cod-mail/#entry1837941

Janson Smalling.1850:

Kazim.2043:

For example one player advertising an item on shout, and made a deal with another player through chat. He sent the item through mail, but the second player did not pay back.

Is it considered officially as a scam?
Is it an official offence that might have consequences?

Yes, you can report that player as Scamming.

prepare yourself for a lot of reports

I think the main reason is in a P2P trading system it would be hard to have a tax implemented due to the infinite combinations of barters/transactions folks could make.

The TP acts as a gold sink for ANET with its taxes …

you can impose a tax on a trade the same as in the TP.
mmo’s do it all of the time o.o

Janson Smalling.1850:

While we understand the want for P2P trading, we feel that the Trading Post works well for accomplishing fair deals and keeping individual users protected from those with less-than-pure-intentions.

Again, while we know that the majority of players would use a P2P system within its intended design, creating they system may place the global economy at risk, as well as some players.

what if you wanted to trade with someone specifically though and without risk of getting ripped off. you can’t. also the TP is completely anonymous so you cant even use it asa roundabout way to trade.