Well this is just funny… Phantasm isnt used by any top player at the moment. To be perfectly honest, it is a pretty bad spec:
1. If geared for damage, the mesmer is still glass, just kill him.
2. Phantasms randomly die to aoe and are on a 16sec cooldown.
3. Shatter does so much more damage in a shorter amount of time.
4. Phantasm has a large windup time – you need to summon at least two preferably 3 phantasms. In that time a thief can already have bursted you down.
5. No target switching.
@phaeris… LoL is not balanced, I dont know how anyone with knowledge of that game can claim it is. There are 12 or so champions which are picked every game because they are better. Just check out a pro player’s opinion from time to time: http://www.reignofgaming.net/tier-lists/competitive-tier-list. That game is successful specifically because Riot caters to casual players so well and its comp scene exists purely because the game is so large.
If Riot was balancing this game they would do the following:
1. Nerf thieves into unplayability because of complaints from most players. (see Eve from LoL).
2. Give mesmers a slight nerf.
3. Nerf warriors as unfun.
Only then would they start to consider tweaks to things that only tournament players complain about… LoL.
Also, condition necros auto-win bunkers. Pity that necros die so fast to all the burst builds lol.
With all the insane megaburst going around (mainly from thieves) that is capable of one-shotting anything that isnt a bunker why do people complain about bunkers?
Surely they are a necessary counter to the current gibfest. I got sick of being blown up within 2 sec of showing my face by thieves so today I was trying out ele/guardian bunker builds and even tho I get alot less glory while playing them I find it WAY more fun.
You can help your team, you can CC people, revive allies. Why do people complain about support being a viable role?
Is it because of all the glass builds that are upset that there is actually something in the game they cant just nuke down in 2 seconds…
Any ability to just instagib someone shouldnt be in the game.
I made something similar to the third build myself. However I think the 25 point traits in dueling and chaos should be considered. Confusion is not worth building around imo.
I play both and personally I think necro should have an easy time vs most burst mesmer builds.
As a necro, you are pretty tanky. Also, standard mesmer burst build doesnt have condition removal. Stun break his sword root and evade immediately.
If you want to autowin the fight go plague form spam bleed.
Players? Like everyone else in spvp…
The first time I tried thief I used an outdated PW build and it was ok, I could own people. However today I found the build that I called “practically griefing” in another thread – the “death blossom” bleed build and I really have no words for it.
Every fight I would literally click steal, click death blossom 3 times, roll away use my initiative util, shadowstep, spam some dodge for caltrops then spam death blossom again. Nothing survived, and with 13k hp I hardly ever took damage since all I was doing was evading. God only knows how ridiculous this would be if I learned what shortbow did and what my other abilities do and if I stopped clicking and learned the keybinds.
Is there anything in the game that can even survive this? Maybe even kill the thief?
I think the excellent point that the OP is trying to make clear is that in its current state thief will never be balanced. Being based around one-button spam builds means that either the “button” will be overpowered or it will be underpowered.
I did. I have played my thief for about 1h total and I always completely crush people with it in spvp. Hence why I asked my original question.
Is there anything that can even survive, let alone kill you?
I agree with the OP.
This thread pleases me. It pleases me greatly.
I don’t know why people say things like this:
- they have on demand, 100% damage mitigation in the form of stealth. Even block/invuls/shields pale in comparison
Because it’s completely untrue. It isn’t the game mechanic to be 100% damage mitigation.
For those who get offended when people talk about/advocate balance at higher levels, you have to understand that a game that desires to be an e-sport must be balanced at the top tier. The End. There’s no other way around it.
I generally agree with Schwahrheit. Where is the desire to improve? If something is killing you, don’t you want to try to adapt and overcome the obstacle? I cannot empathize with another human who doesn’t embrace challenges like that, instead opting to complain about balance and hope the developer changes the game for them.
There very much is a “spoiled kid” mentality permeating games these days, and it’s unfortunate.
Every single game which is now an esport has been balanced many times and is still being re-balanced even now. To say that the game is currently perfectly balanced and nothing should be changed is the epitome of childish naivety.
Also, several popular esport games (DotA2, LoL) do balance around the mid level somewhat. (e.g. Ursa/Huskar nerfs in dota2, Eve tier in LoL)
Moreover, there are pictures elsewhere on this forum where a Thief has 1shot someone from stealth with backstab. This has no counter since there is no possible way to react or outplay your opponent.
Where did I say I was better than anyone? I merely cited that I have a bunch of experience playing in tournaments.
Okay, so you saw a glass-cannon Mesmer get one-shot by a glass-cannon Thief. In a different situation, the Mesmer could just as easily one-shot the Thief. Does that make Mesmers overpowered? Mesmers can also one-shot Rangers, Engineers, Warriors, Necros, etc… The price of playing as a glass-cannon is being extremely flimsy.
Mesmer burst is:
1. Less than Thief
2. Has buildup (have to summon clones to shatter, meaning its even possible to evade this damage)
In short, Mesmer burst is somewhat counterable. Thief instagib from stealth is UNCOUNTERABLE.
So, you are a self proclaimed top player who basically thinks everything is fine? How can you be so arrogant to think that you are better than everybody else?
I have seen various streamers who have won tons of tournaments state that thieves, in particular backstab, are broken. Just a few hours ago I saw Xee (R40 tpvp mesmer) get INSTA-GIBBED from stealth by a thief with 12k backstab. Him dieing instantly caused them to lose the match…
Well one would hope that they are listening.
(edited by ehtom.5047)
I did roll a thief and within 15 min of leaving the character creation screen I was owning people with pistol whip (only build I could find, even tho it got nerfed lol).
I didnt even know what the buttons did – I just mashed utils and then pistol whip then someone died.
Maybe I will go back to it and find out what spec lets you spam invis AND massive damage, as opposed to just massive damage.
Bleed stacks? … Just… keep a condition cleanse with you, or 2, preferably 2.
Stealth Spam: AoE the kitten out of the area, you can still hit us. Hit a surviability button and take the backstab (like an idiot), dont do anything and eat it (like a bigger idiot), or anticipate the backstab and dodge. If you dodge far enough away it’s hard to catch up and backstab without blowing your own dodge, and our stealth only last 2-6 seconds. Shadow Refuge you have to sit in for about 7-8 seconds, before you can step out for the last 3 seconds. So just dont kittening stand in it.
Backstab: See Stealth Spam, and dont get hit by it.
Stealth Stomp: …You’re on the ground, you already loss. Just accept it or delay for your team if you have an AoE KB/daze.
Downed State: Our down state sucks IMO. Teleport only goes so far, and you still have to wait for smoke bomb to come off CD after for a few seconds. Smoke Bomb doesnt teleport us, just keep hitting where we were. Our down state only delays the inevitable in 1vs1(+).
I can own bads by spamming 1 button: Well duh, they’re bads kitten
I doubt you will actually read all of that, so I probably just wasted my time. You’re bad, and you should feel bad.
Well I did read your reply. Clearly you did not read my OP. I explicitly stated that I am not good at this game. I explicitly stated that my post is not about high-level balance (though I suspect you are a standard spvp thief just like everyone else, not some tournament pro).
As for your reply…
1. I tried stacking condition cleanses. It didnt really work that well, whatever you cleanse gets instantly re-applied and is back up to 10+ stacks of bleeds in a few seconds. Also you cant do anything about the thief while hes spamming his button, since he evades all attacks.
2. There is hardly any instant-cast instant-spike-damage wide-area aoe in this game (that I know of). This is what would be required to nuke a thief down while in stealth without him just running away then coming back in once the aoe has ended.
3. The game is clearly not designed that way. The downed state is supposed to give you a chance to be revived, stealth stomp makes this impossible.
4. I disagree with your opinion. In your opinion, what class has a good downed state then? Are you saying all other classes have a better downed state? (only Mesmer even comes close imo).
5. Being able to own “bads” while spamming 1 button does not make you good. Those builds require absolutely no skill (I speak from personal experience) and should be changed.
I do also find some mesmer builds very annoying (shatter builds are pretty lame imo) but they dont seem to have absolutely everything you could possibly want like thieves.
I’m not explicitly saying that thieves need a nerf. I’m saying their abilities need to be reworked.
I have played alot of games. I have played several at very high levels of play.
I have NEVER seen something as broken as the Thief before. For PvP, the class is completely anti-fun:
1. Bleed stack builds are pretty much griefing.
2. Almost impossible to kill with the stealth spam.
3. Backstab instagib from stealth – No way this should be in the game imo.
4. Stealth stomp – If this is a bug, then its just plain griefing and repeat offenders should be punished.
5. Downed state – high damage & mobility. Compared to most other classes downed state its just plain ridiculous (all downed states should be like Guardian imo – give you a chance to survive for a while, but not continue to grief the other player).
6. Some of their builds require no skill whatsoever. I rolled a thief, played pistol whip and within 15 mins I was owning people (I didnt even know what half the buttons were for and never weapon swapped)
Now, I am not good enough at the game to say if they are overpowered or not. However this is not my point. My point is that Thieves in their current state are not fun to play against at all and are ruining the fun potential of this game considerably.
Because in a TPvP setting they’re pretty poo?
Because all the top teams dropped wars like a bad habit from their roster?
Because once people discovered the dodge button they learned how to completely negate warriors single dangerous spec?And because warriors don’t get to run 30/30/30/30/30 while using a hammer/GS/sword/axe/Mace/shield at the same time in order to accomplish what you state in the OP.
Interesting that you think this… The only competitive team I know of is team paradigm from watching their streams. They have a 100skills warrior. You’re missing the point that the game is not 1v1 – if someone is otherwise disabled by someone else, you can come along and 100skills them 100-0 when they are helpless.
This is where burst damage is utterly insane – quickly taking someone out in a teamfight situation, not 1v1s which never happen anyway.
I too play a mesmer… nothing is hard
Top competitive streamers seem to disagree with you. They think mesmer vs thief 1v1 is 50/50 (Source: Xee, Team Paradigm).
People seem to mainly be concerned with thieves and while I can see the logic behind the complaints (1shot from stealth outside human reaction time is not fun) they are also squishy and not particularly useful in groups.
Warriors on the other hand just seem like god mode to me (I play Mesmer/Necro)… 100 skills gives ridiculous 1shot potential, they seem very tanky and hard to kill, they have alot of cc, they can easily run away from you and if you do down them they can just resurrect themselves and get back to the pain train. About 1/2 of everyone I see in sPVP is a warrior. Why does nobody talk about this, what am I missing?
All this said I’m still a noob at this game, but I am/have been a top player in various other games (like dota2). Any insights on why warriors arent godmode imba would be appreciated.