The class balance discussion promoted clarity with most of the class specific topics except for the discussion that took place between Java and Sharp/Peters when talking about rangers, so I’m just looking for some clarification.
Are the devs saying that ranger as a whole is strong, or that specifically traps are the strongest option rangers bring to the table in PvP which creates the Apex Predator scenario that was discussed.
Personally, I am hoping for the latter of the two options, because that would imply to me that the devs are aware of some of rangers more lackluster options in terms of PvP; an awareness which is especially important when the trap build itself is countered entirely by a mix of condition removal and good positioning.
Overall, good state of the game, although it is disappointing to here that the February patch will contain a focus more towards features than towards balancing aspects of the game. Still, I hope to see some sort of improvements along with the February patch, as does much of the competitive community and overall community as a whole.
Rangers in Guild Wars 1 had some of the best skill bar compression in the game. On any given competitive build, a ranger could pressure, interrupt, remove conditions, block attacks, heal, and even spike assist (most tourny builds weren’t setup for pure damage bars as it wasn’t necessary).
Rangers were strong team options from the support they could provide as well as split and solo base NPCs for the team. Also, this could all be accomplished with a single skill bar setup and basic attribute distribution. Rangers could effectively hold their own against any class in the game, and while most skirmishes with a tourny bar setup (by this I do mean the damage/utility elite, 2 interrupts, apply poison, lightning reflexes, natural stride, mending touch, rez signet) weren’t going to outright kill other players, there really wasn’t a single class rangers had to be afraid of either unless that class were to focus you long enough to make you blow all defensive options available (which usually came from more than one player focusing you than it did an individual player).
Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have rangers. Its has a Shaggy/Scooby Doo class (an implied stoned guy who can barely accomplish anything useful and his equally ridiculous pet sidekick. They exist purely for others entertainment and in terms of doing anything useful, can basically only get in the way).
Then again, what do I know, it isn’t like I played guild wars 1 for almost a decade exclusively as ranger with most of my time going into pvp or anything…
Still, opinions are opinions.
Traps are fine, but not what I made a ranger for. Idc about the other weapons or builds, although I appreciate the changes made to GS, I want my longbow to become viable, useable, and worth a kitten in pvp. Id also like to not be forced to use sig of beastmaster to be on par with other people when their cds are down, its frustrating.
I agree with this 100%.
Adding my 2 cents to that idea, I would also like to see some less useless Grandmaster Traits. Albeit, the traits for all classes need some work in some way, but I see no reason whatsoever to trait to Marksmanship 30 except for the extra power, I doubt Evasive Purity has a place in any build, and Instinctual Bond might have been more useful is the quickness was active while lick wounds was available.
Personally I’m not so sure what’s good about remorseless either. Not that it’s useless, but I don’t feel it’s strong enough to deserve 30 points. Just an opinion though, I’m sure there are people out there than can argue some form of success with it, it just doesn’t seem deserving of a grandmaster trait to me.
All I was able to get out of that was "rangers have burst,
they have a lot of burst. with a stealthed jag, berserker gear, LB and QZ you can do 15-20k damage in a few seconds. yes it’s harder to pull off, no it’s not 15k damage in 1 second, but it’s also a sniper build and u can do it from any distance. i’ll let u figure out the build.
You’re right, and everybody in the ranger community should know the build right now. But you are confirming exactly what I was saying: “yes it’s harder to pull off, no it’s not 15k damage in 1 second…”
I’m not here to say whether or not burst in this game should be harder to accomplish across the board compared to some of the faceroll options that are popular right now, that is a different discussion. I was merely saying that in the current state of the metagame, while rangers do have access to burst, they are basically in last place when it comes to how much damage it does and how easy it is to accomplish.
There is two ways to accomplish balance in that category, make burst harder to accomplish across the board, or make rangers stronger to compensate. I’m in favor of seeing the class balanced regardless of what the devs go with, and getting back to the OP, I think it was fair to mention that rangers, for their burst options, can’t just hit 2 buttons and do 15k damage.
has no real burst damage
this made me lol so hard. it’s amusing how noobs think. while ranger’s burst isnt as faceroll as a BS thief or 100b warrior or shatter mesmer, it’s still there. you have access to 6 seconds of quickness. on demand. think about that. with investment in power, crit and BM, you can burst anything down from 50-60% health, easily. jaguar alone can unleash 6-8k burst on a crippled/dazed target. add LB #2 or SB #1 to that mix and it’s lights out.
you can achieve similar results with cat and bleed stacking. the ranger is the best bleed stacker in the game, hands down.
Curiously, what other class has burst dps options? In terms of classes that actually have burst damage style gameplay, that basically puts the ranger in dead last. So yes, while it might be a justifiable statement to say that other classes have a more faceroll (and also higher damage) burst, it doesn’t make rangers burst any less sub par.
All I was able to get out of that was “rangers have burst, they just don’t have the same burst that every other class with quickness or a spike damage skill has. Learn to play.”
Yes, rangers do have options that allow them to do fair amounts of damage. But it should also be noted that the opportunities in which rangers have to do that damage are highly situational and usually the requirement tends to be that you are either attacking a person who is afk or is such a low skill player they aren’t aware they have movement keys and a dodge button. In sPvP/tPvP anyways. WvW is a different ballpark because at least you can use your PvE gear and food and such, meaning you can gain much more damage in WvW than in arenas.
I swear to god you should take an IQ test before being allowed to post here….
How in gods name is using shortbow 1 (in combo with 4 so they’re cripple and jaguars F2) a limited opportunity? Where thieves and warriors and mesmers burst all comes from melee range OUR burst can come from up to 1,200yds away, we have THE LEAST restrictions on our burst than anyone else in the game.
You apparently don’t have a dodge button. Rangers burst is some of the most avoidable burst in the game, unless you are able to combo it with some sort of immobilize or stun, which we have far more restricted options to than most of the other classes that have burst options in the game.
As far as your insult, get your head out of your kitten You aren’t the only person who plays the class, stop posting like you have some sort of expertise nobody else has. You’re just arrogant because you have success with a class and a playstyle that other people don’t, but that doesn’t mean your opinion is more valid than other peoples. Let the adults continue the constructive conversation now, while you devise a new angst filled, arrogant, ego bolstering thing to say.
(edited by jcbroe.4329)
Every 100 toughness added to the base armor rating is roughly a 3.4% decrease on incoming damage, if that helps at all. There is also diminishing returns (on all stats except vitality apparently), meaning that after a certain breakpoint that I’m uncertain of exactly, points in toughness provide less damage reduction. i.e. the protection boon, which is 33% damage reduction, roughly equates to about 1300 toughness.
Other tested ideas are things like doubling your current armor rating is what is needed to gain 50% more damage reduction than what you have now (aka 2*1980 = 3960 for a 50% damage reduction).
What I’m trying to point out is that by doing some math, you can decide for yourself what you want your armor rating to be. Personally I would aim for 2600+ armor and a bottom number of 19.5k health, but that is just personal preference.
Personally I would like to see an option, such as a trait (like 30 beastmastery, because I can’t even think of the other Grandmaster Trait that isn’t Natural Healing because it is just that useless), that would turn pets into untargetable, completely passive (as in the never attack) allies that have different activation skills that all apply buffs of some sort, which all have instant activation times. On top of this, the damage that pets are supposed to account for should be restored to the player when running this trait.
People are still complaining about this issue because there isn’t a single class in this game that provides an archer gameplay. Lots of people are guild wars 1 veterans (including myself) who played ranger in guild wars 1, and the ranger class in this game is honestly just horrendous in comparison.
The only class that can even use a bow semi-effectively in this game is a thief, which is a huge letdown to anybody who enjoys the archer playstyle.
To the people telling the rest of us to go play a different class cuz ranger is a pet class, please go play a different game, pokemon is a working with pets game. See how effective that argument is? Stop imposing your playstyles on other people that are only asking for a bit of versatility, as it won’t change the way you play the game at all.
has no real burst damage
this made me lol so hard. it’s amusing how noobs think. while ranger’s burst isnt as faceroll as a BS thief or 100b warrior or shatter mesmer, it’s still there. you have access to 6 seconds of quickness. on demand. think about that. with investment in power, crit and BM, you can burst anything down from 50-60% health, easily. jaguar alone can unleash 6-8k burst on a crippled/dazed target. add LB #2 or SB #1 to that mix and it’s lights out.
you can achieve similar results with cat and bleed stacking. the ranger is the best bleed stacker in the game, hands down.
Curiously, what other class has burst dps options? In terms of classes that actually have burst damage style gameplay, that basically puts the ranger in dead last. So yes, while it might be a justifiable statement to say that other classes have a more faceroll (and also higher damage) burst, it doesn’t make rangers burst any less sub par.
All I was able to get out of that was “rangers have burst, they just don’t have the same burst that every other class with quickness or a spike damage skill has. Learn to play.”
Yes, rangers do have options that allow them to do fair amounts of damage. But it should also be noted that the opportunities in which rangers have to do that damage are highly situational and usually the requirement tends to be that you are either attacking a person who is afk or is such a low skill player they aren’t aware they have movement keys and a dodge button. In sPvP/tPvP anyways. WvW is a different ballpark because at least you can use your PvE gear and food and such, meaning you can gain much more damage in WvW than in arenas.
Well, Longbow pacing needs to be improved across the board (as in, it is a slow weapon and the damage does not compensate) to help ranged power builds out a bit.
Traits (not just rangers, but overall as well) could definitely use some polishing (Beastmasters Might gives 1 stack of might for 5s on signet activation, which is a terrible effect overall, especially with signets horrendous recharge).
Utility Skills for ranger could use some reworking and polishing. Signet Recharge, Spirit effectiveness, and shout function are the highlights.
Overall besides a few bug fixes, the class plays virtually the same as it did in October, but with a more polished feel to the flow of combat. Not that the polishing is done, but it is more polished than October. Every class has issues though, I just main ranger so I’m more aware of the issues of this class.
It should also be noted that Rapid Fire has the longest channeling (5 seconds) out of any other weapon skill in the entire game. Coupled with the longbows overall slowest attack speed in the game, it makes the weapon less than optimal at dealing damage against anything that moves, and even worse than that within 1000 range.
It seems as though the weapon was designed with only WvW in mind.
I would say that the problem is 50% longbow pacing in general, and then 50% long range shot.
The longbow is probably the slowest firing weapon in the game (both the ranger and warrior versions). In reality it probably matches the rifle, but in practice it seems the rifle fires about 10-20ms faster. Whether this is an animation bug or intended, something is off about it, and it makes it the lowest auto attack dps in the game at everything other than 1200+ range.
As far as the auto attack goes, the only thing I can offer is to compare similar mechanics. So, Mesmer Greatsword auto attack versus Long Range Shot:
Spatial Surge:
Damage < 300 (3x): 201
Damage 300-600 (3x): 249
Damage 600-900 (3x): 300
Damage > 900 (3x): 348
Range: 1,200
Long Range Shot:
1000+ range: 317
500-1000 range: 229
0-500 range: 176
Combo Finisher: Projectile (20% chance)
Range: 1,200
The biggest thing to take away from that is the effective ranges. Matching the ranges would be a start (change ranger to : 0-300, 300-600, 600+). Increasing the base damage to about 200 would also help. Then it’s back to the pacing issue I already mentioned.
I don’t know, that’s just my take on it.
8. Lastly, the most controversial wish that I know most people will disagree with: make shortbow auto attack an unconditional bleed. However, seeing as how I’m going to be in the minority on that one, I will make a compromise and say that the least I could ask for is for crossfire to apply bleeds as it does now AND if the opponent is attacking (the same way confusion ticks). Actually, that’s still probably too easy of a requirement to fulfill to get that bleed and people will complain, so I will be willing to compromise even farther and ask that the bleed be applied if the opponent is standing still, in addition to the current flanking requirement. Basically what I’m trying to say with this last one, strictly in terms of competitive arenas, is that other classes that can go condition have an unconditional condition applied on auto attack. Ranger shortbow is the only one that has this strange positioning requirement, and even if it is something unique to the class that might make it more fun for people, it simply isn’t competitive with the other options.
These are my 8 wishes for the ranger in updates to come. Rangers are by no means terrible, but they are lost in obscurity, mostly due to poor versatility in utility choices, and how certain utilities work (not being able to make an active signet build or support shout build (which every other class that has shouts can trait to make their shouts do more supportive stuff than they already do) for instance).
If anybody would like to share, add, or criticize, please do. This is hopefully a thread for constructive ideas for possible tweaks for future updates for the ranger class.
For an idea that will probably never be implemented, and mostly just to satisfy my own playstyle:
30 points in Beastmastery, major trait: “Act as One:” You and your pet are bound by an inseparable bond. Pets move with you, becoming untargetable and unable to attack. Player damage is increased by + X%(I would assume somewhere between 15% and 25%) and pet F2 abilities activate instantly with a 1/4-1/2 cast time, depending on the pet.
So, ANet is finally getting around to giving rangers some goodies. However, there is still much that could be done. Without further ado, I present my ranger wishlist:
1. Shorter cooldowns on signets. Explanation: Most people just take signet of the beastmaster for the effects of signet of stone. However, we have three other signets signet which all have decent traited active effects of the wild in particular, that all have decent active effects recharges weren’t so long. Suggestions: Reduce Signet of Renewal Recharge to 45s, reduce Signet of the Wild recharge to 75s (it has a fairly strong traited active effect), and reduce Signet of Stone to 90s.
2. Change Signet of the Hunts active effect. Pet’s don’t really have any active F2 moves that take a whole lot of advantage of it in it’s current status, and there is literally only 1 move strong enough on one weapon set to take semi-advantage of the traited active effect (swoop). This effect would be better off changed to reflect the thief version of this skill (your next 5 attacks to x increased amount of damage). More so, if ANet truly was feeling generous, they would make it (for the next x seconds, your attacks do x increased amount of damage). This version of it would and should only be about 4s long to maintain balance, and the increase should only be about 10%.
3. Change the trait that gives might on signet activation. This trait, if you ever tried it, gives a whole one stack of might for 5s on signet activation for signets that have such long recharges that nobody in their right mind would ever consider this trait viable. It has potential, and could be changed to reflect the Necro Blood is Power utility (albeit not as many stacks of might, 5 stacks of might for 10s on signet activation would probably be fair).
4. Rework spirits. Give them mediocre AoE buffs that are constantly applied for 5s at a time with an ICD (every 8s, x spirit applies 5s of swiftness, vigor, etc). Spirits are not worth it at all in their current form except possibly the elite, and it has such an abysmal recharge that in certain areas of the game it isn’t worth the slot. Regardless, the buffs need to affect everybody in a certain radius, the effects should be constant, and they should be utility effects (as opposed to infinite might or stability). Make it 2s protection or retaliation with an ICD. Anything of this nature is better than what spirits do now.
5. Reduce Rampage as Ones recharge to bring it in line with other professions similar elites for the sake of balance (particularly, warriors elite signet, as RaO is effectively a worse version of this elite signet).
6. Rework shouts. Protect Me and Search and Rescue are fine, and Sickem could go for a slightly reduced recharge. Guard is… obscure. It does a lot of stuff that looks cool that then serves no purpose. If Guard could be traited to affect the player as well, it would be amazing (it cloaks your pet and adds protection for 6s). Why 6s with the skills crazy longevity and recharge? Who knows, but this skill could be fine tuned in many different ways to allow it to see the light of day. Particularly, I would like to see a utility in while you and your pet instantly trade places (people from guild wars 1 will know what I am talking about). This would be a boon for melee rangers and would most certainly tie in to the whole ranger/pet bond concept (imo).
7. Add a unique class mechanic heal that is affected by either the class or the traits. What I mean by that is that every class has some sort of heal that is down one of their 4 utility lines (War: Healing Signet, Guardian: Signet of Resolve, Engineer: all 3 of its heals, Thief: all three of its heals, Ele: Glyph of Elemental Harmony, Signet of Restoration, Mesmer: Mantra of Recovery, and Either Feast to an extent, Necro: Summon Blood Fiend, Well of Blood). To follow all of these other examples, rangers Heal as One or Troll Unguent should probably be a survival line skill, and Healing Spring should be categorized as trap (as it was in Guild Wars 1). That way, traits in particular trait lines could affect them and give them the boon that every other class in the game gets for their heal in some way.
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