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Condition builds are a joke, obviously no one plays a thief over at head quarters. Maybe this should change.
You are horridly mistaken if you think they are a joke. Scorpion Wire to caltrops with the uncatchable trait and death blossom is EASY 25 stacks of bleed, pop spider venom mid fight, shortbow to keep poison on if cleared GG. An aware Bleed thief will own a glass thief every time.
Lol shadow’s embrace would render that build entirely useless. I haven’t once died to a condition thief, not once. But I also don’t run glass cannon, and I know anything can own a bad one. In a balanced setting though conditions are nothing short of a joke.
Shadow’s Embrace is more or less useless. Bleeds and the Poison are constant. P/D what are you gonna do CnD when you can’t touch me? You obviously are not that dumb to think good condi thiefs are dumb enough to let you stealth with CnD. Plus with ridiculous init regen. You’re just mad because Dancing Dagger got nerfed.
Condition builds are a joke, obviously no one plays a thief over at head quarters. Maybe this should change.
You are horridly mistaken if you think they are a joke. Scorpion Wire to caltrops with the uncatchable trait and death blossom is EASY 25 stacks of bleed, pop spider venom mid fight, shortbow to keep poison on if cleared GG. An aware Bleed thief will own a glass thief every time.
As a dedicated thief player, and nothing but assassin player in GW1 I think everything was a needed change MINUS the 50% damage deduction on Dancing Dagger. That is just blatant overshooting. As people have stated they nerfed it without any deduction to the init cost which is kitteny. I am pretty stoked about the s-wire buff because I use it a lot and love it. Also to whoever asked this is not the first time they have pve/pvp versions of skills they did it in gw1 which was a great feature. Now if only they would add saving builds. In all I think we will be okay and I love everyone one of you. Don’t give up hope!
Thanks for all the help guys. did anyone ever experiment with the trait skill that gives health from using initiative?
Again, I really put a lot of (possibly misguided) faith in the Nov 15th patch. It will say loads about the direction. I’m not proclaiming that the sky is falling, but many people are leaving. I have 1 friend that still plays but he often neglects this game to play borderlands. What happened to MMOs being like crack and the incessant need to login to progress?
Well, progression is gone in this game, so you are left with only fun. So, if the PvP isn’t fun, nobody will play. I think that’s what is going on right now. Stale, no progression PvP makes Johnny a sad boy.
I am in the same boat as you, a lot of my friends have quit the game altogether
I actually talked over half of my department at work to play (about 10 of us). They were all mostly MMO vets and some even competitive SC and MOBA players. All but one of them left weeks ago, and the last one that is clinging on is doing so by a thread.
I’m going through my stages of grief lol. At first I was like, no this isn’t that bad, they just don’t know what’s going on. Then I went into sadness looking at how great the games potential is. I mean the game has CRAZY potential and at its core is really really fun. Now, I’m genuinely getting angry at the wasted potential.
When I come into work, sometimes there is actually this awkward moment where they ask me, “You still playing GW.” I pushed so hard during beta and for a few months before that and was able to get them all to join stating “Anet will be different. They will give us all a finished product at start and if stuff needs fixing they’ll get it done.” Oh..my…gosh….was I way off.
So many people say “just put the game down and then come back in a few months”. Maybe that’s how you work, but when I’m gone I’m gone. I think most people are that way. Look at how many other games go free to play or have no barrier to entry after adding a ton of features to the game, and they still can’t get players back. When players leave, most of them do so permanently.
I really really want to love this game just like GW1 but I just don’t see it happening half the time I sit around the mists hoping someone gets online. It is sad really. Same boat as you. I had 10 friends and my one friend had a brother get his 30-40 person guild from WoW to play and they are all pretty much gone.
The way venoms work is just god awful as it stands now. The fact they disappear without connecting is just awful especially when we have a trait skill. They should have a flat duration to last. END OF STORY.
I really want to keep playing condition thief but I feel I just don’t put out damage. Can anyone give me a break down as to what utils are good? Right now I am running 20 0 0 20 30. Utils Caltrops, Roll For initiative, X because i really dont know. Help?
Again, I really put a lot of (possibly misguided) faith in the Nov 15th patch. It will say loads about the direction. I’m not proclaiming that the sky is falling, but many people are leaving. I have 1 friend that still plays but he often neglects this game to play borderlands. What happened to MMOs being like crack and the incessant need to login to progress?
Well, progression is gone in this game, so you are left with only fun. So, if the PvP isn’t fun, nobody will play. I think that’s what is going on right now. Stale, no progression PvP makes Johnny a sad boy.
I am in the same boat as you, a lot of my friends have quit the game altogether
From reading a few of those threads mostly the one by Pray. Yes as you stated it is in their court, but they have no idea what to do with it.
In my humble opinion the best quick-fix for the whole problem would be to introduce single/duo queue free tournaments (or just single games) with a strong matchmaking mechanic.
Best regards Pray
Great post and this part is a great idea. Simple, quick solution while they iron out a good ladder system. This way, queues will still be somewhat quick since many many people queue solo or with 1 other friend, and you won’t have to get throat punched in Khylo anymore!
You can already do this.
Cheers.
Again Jon, you perfectly display that you as a person are a major reason of why GW2 is going downhill and yet have the audacity again and again to openly rub your sheer (seemingly unending) amount of incompetence into everyones eyes.
The naivety you unearth day after day while being able to simulatenously mock your own playerbase… what a remarkable feat indeed.
No, you can not already do this.
I applaud you Pray for stating this fact. Just like Pray stated No, we can’t already do this. Seeing this post has severely cut my faith in this game.
This is not a rage about a class build but simply things that I feel being a veteran from GW1 and going into GW2 expecting to have the same great pvp experience I had in GW1. I will touch on topics I feel need to be addressed quickly as it seems to me the PvP scene is dying horrifically fast. So here we go!
SKILL DIFFERENCE
This is an issue that I have been on both sides of. There are the matches where we steamroll a team and then next match get slaughtered ourselves. This happens when I queue by myself and when I am with my guild. There have been the few games where it comes down to that last kill or a race to the lord, but those matches are few and far between. So like stated many times in map chat and on the forums. Put in a matchmaking system/ladder. We know it won’t fix everything but at this point I think we will all be happy if PvP improves a little. Take League of Legends for example their matching making system is based well around how many people are queued together, premades will vs premades. This is not even close to the case right now. This is probably what should be addressed first. Solution Put in a ladder system, and improve matchmaking.
SAVING BUILDS
This will be my shortest complaint. You took one of the best things GW1 had EVER, and did not even include it. This feature should have been in the game before release. Add it and that will be a big step forward for both PvE/PvP. Solution Add it
LACK OF VARIETY MAPS
IMHO PvP is stale. Every map when stripped down boils down to bunkering. I loved GW1 PvP because there were slightly different variations to the same basic idea. Kill Count. Deathmatch. Flag Holding. I have no problem with there being 3 maps but add variety. Solution Keep the 3 maps that is fine. Add flag capture, total kill count, death match versions.
DOWNED STATE
Now like people have stated it is not that downed state is a problem itself. It is FINE in PvP but needs tweaks. Obviously some classes have it better than others, as much as I see people deny this you know its true. Solution Make downed state the same for all classes, give each class a single target interrupt so that finishing isn’t such a joke. Remove downed state and give everyone RESSURECTION SIGNET as an extra skill.
LACK OF VARIETY SKILLS aka I MISS BUILD WARS!
When I first read that in GW2 weapon skills would be based on the weapons you have equipped and you can have two sets, I thought it was a good idea. Until I saw the lack of variety. I play thief the most but have played the other classes, and I can see why people play the same builds over and over. Thief for example used to be able to be either high damage or condition. Both have since been nerfed and venoms for example as well as traps are awful. As much as I try to keep playing a bleed build I can’t because it is not bursty enough. Having the skills based on weapons is fine, but give us options for said skills.
ADDRESS THE BURST RACE ISSUE
IMHO GW2 PvP is pretty much about the burst and taking players out of the equation. Yea I see rangers from time to time firing arrows with the ferocity of 50 honey badgers but they just don’t get it done. Up runs a thief or warrior and kills people in the blink of an eye. Solution Change the way certain conditions are removed. Look at bleeding for example. A lot of classes have builds that are based around bleeds that can be wiped away in a second. I remember in GW1 when I got health degen I was pissing my pants not laughing my kitten off like I do now.
8v8 is Stupid
I will gladly state this over and over. Why you guys thought it was a good idea AT ALL to have 8v8 zerg fests and then have tournaments be 5v5 is beyond me. Players who decide to go to tPvP will be baffled by the strategy of tPvP with no idea what to do because it isn’t easy to zerg. Suddenly that build that player was working on that could decimate a zerg all of a sudden is useless. Solution Make quick join 5v5 or less on smaller maps.
That is pretty much it for now, I am sure this community which I love will come up with some more ideas, to try and help the game we love and have been waiting for flourish. ArenaNet we are not trying to bash you in anyway, you guys made a great game that has so much potential, we are all just trying to nudge you in the right direction. It would be nice to get some feedback on these issues.
Thank You
Venomous Strength When applied, venoms grant 2 stacks of might for 20 seconds.
-This is a bad trait due to the fact applying venoms is unreliable and stacks are so easily wastedI don’t see how pressing E (well, whatever your keybinding is) to get 2 stacks of might instantly and poison on the next few attacks is unreliable.
As soon as you press apply poison, you get the stacks of might.
This is a great trait due to the fact that applying venoms means “applying the buff to yourself, making your next attacks poison the enemy”. Applying venoms does NOT mean “applying the venom to your enemy.”
You’re APPLYING the poison to your weapons – and gaining 2 stacks of might in the process. How is that unreliable?
Because this
Mug Deal damage when stealing. Is a lot more reliable than 2 stacks of might that in pvp will quickly get stripped from you or you wont be able to use due to get knocked around by a guardian or blown up by an Ele/Warrior/Thief/Necro/Mesmer
I see a lot of people complaining about burst thieves, and I understand your annoyance as we all deal with them. The thing is when you look at how god awful venom skills are there is a reason we just roll high damage. Investing in venom skills is a waste. They are undependable.
The reason I say they are undependable is because their duration is short, and damage is mostly a joke, and my biggest gripe is that they lose stacks whether or not you hit a target so if you accidentally hit that 1 key you lose a stack.
SOLUTION:
Give thieves more ways to apply conditions. I don’t care about stacking vulnerability let me poison.
Either change venoms so they only apply on hit(Hitting a target who is blocking will take away a stack(s). Or give them a flat duration that their affect lasts. I don’t think I have played an MMO where venoms were in stacks vs. a flat duration.
PUT +10 Condition Damage Onto Deadly Arts and +10 Duration onto Trickery. It makes since that a trait tree that deals with buffing venoms would increase their damage vs the duration.
Change the venom traits, to make us really see a benefit in them. I will touch on why the current ones are bad/outshined by other skills below
Venomous Strength When applied, venoms grant 2 stacks of might for 20 seconds.
-This is a bad trait due to the fact applying venoms is unreliable and stacks are so easily wasted
Potent Poison Increases poison duration by 33%.
-Who cares when conditions are easily cured by bunker builds, and anyone who has half a brain, and again only good if you apply them, and some durations are so low 33% is only a fraction of a second and doesn’t matter anyways.
Residual Venom Applied venoms last one extra strike.
-Again pointless since stacks are so easily wasted and poison is so easily cleared
Venomous Aura When you use a venom skill, you apply the effects to all nearby allies as well.
-This has to be the most randomly placed trait skill. The whole tree deals with deception and benefits from stealth. So I can give my team my undependable venoms. Such a waste of a trait skill especially at 30 points
Basilisk Venom Turns your target to stone for 1 1/2 seconds
-Why anyone would take this over Guild or Dagger Storm is beyond me. I can see it being good, but just how venoms work at the current moment make it unreliable.
Also I know a lot of thieves think traps are also unreliable and I can see their point as well since the first thing to cross them activates it and with all the clones/phantasms/minions players have makes them useless.
Thoughts, any other suggestions the whole community has?
(edited by omgdracula.6345)
Honestly that would make me use venoms more a simple counter so we dont end up wasting them. A slight buff to their damage as well. But really that is why I hate them. Oh i missed and now its gone. It honestly doesnt make since.
Glad to see this post getting attention and I agree with a lot of what all of you are saying. It is not that they need to be buffed to make them OP. Just buff them to make them viable. Make thieves feel that investing in them is worth it. I would love nothing more than to run a bunch of venoms, but the fact is they get out shined by a lot of other utilities. I tried using traps yesterday and yea they are also garbage. 1on1 they are okay. I just wish Anet would look into this so that the One Trick Glass Cannon builds don’t seem so much better than condition. I really think thieves need a deep wound skill or venom. Something that takes away health.
“Coagulating Venom”
-The longer this venom is applied, your target gets increasing deep wound max:25% health.
Something like that.
I feel the fact that venoms are so bad, is what eventually makes each thief just say screw it and just go for the typical burst build you see today.
We have a whole trait tree that you can dedicate to venoms, but really why should we use them? I am not sure about the rest of you but I feel when I use venoms, they are VERY hit and miss. Plus with how easily they can be cleansed there is no reason to really take them with the other options available to us.
Most teams run a class, or have a skill for condition removal which makes sense. But the fact a thief can simply just go for more damage and crit chance out shines “Condition Builds” by far. A few auto attacks = spider venom x 2.
Not to mention that the thief is pretty easily countered with a simple chill, and more than likely we will end up over using our skills and wasting initiative due to their not really being a delay queue.
TL;DR Conditions and the options that thieves have for them are such a joke against normal skilled players that they force us to go straight damage to be viable.
MY SOLUTION: BRING BACK THE DEEP WOUND CONDITION and give thieves more options for conditions. The fact I can spec full condition damage and spider venom gets around 1,700 is pitiful.
What is your trait distribution? For a condition build, pistols and shortbow are interchangeable. IMHO.
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