Guild Wars 2

Darkobra.6439:

You did a lot of internet research there, Orpheal. Shame it didn’t work out for you. Especially when they were not only used in France but also Spain and Japan and NEVER by the military.

Google isn’t really your friend. Did you not get told when you were in your higher education to stop using the internet for fact-checking? Still, points for trying and typing up more than I’m going to read because people that type THAT much quickly tend to repeat themselves.

Umm, I think you are confusing a sickle with a scythe. Scythes that were used in combat had the blades reattached so that they were parallel to the shaft of the tool, instead of perpendicular. At this point, you have a polearm, not the agricultural tool. Sickles were a common improvised weapon on multiple continents. Scythes, not so much.

The system might require more than one reporting source to take effect.

I’ve reported other people for saying stuff that I thought was abusive, and saw no effect. Then again, I’ve seen people disappear offline within 15 minutes of being reported, right in the middle of a lengthy rant that they apparently had no intention of ending.

Honestly, I have no idea how the report system works or is reviewed. I doubt Anet is going to make any details public, so as to avoid people trying to game the system.

Quiggle.4215:

Suggestions forum seemed to be in the archive section, so I was not sure if it was still the right place to put this.

Good point, but the CDI thread would be a good spot to add a link to this thread. That way, the devs are more likely to see this excellent suggestion and it can get a larger audience, since there are a lot of people who keep tabs on that thread.

Might be a good idea to add a link to this thread over in the suggestions forum. Plus, I think there’s a thread on this forum that takes suggestions from the players as well. I definitely approve of and support this idea.

I like the idea of player housing and/or guildhalls. They could easily add it in as a series of instanced areas, like LotRO did.

I just don’t see what it will add, besides grind for the rent and an additional place to store stuff. Honestly, how many people spend time in their home instance? The home instance is a great deal like player housing would/should be set up, only larger. Sure, we can’t customize our home instance, unless we complete certain LS meta-achievements, but technologically the home instance and player housing are identical in all but size.

So, Anet can add a brand new gold sink for players and/or guilds and then what? Watch as everybody hangs out in the market district of LA, dancing on the steps? I love the idea of player housing, but unless you’re planning on hosting some friends for some RP, it’s not what I would call a major quality of life upgrade.

I remember mowing through mobs with my guardian at lower level. It was a blast. Then I started doing living story and haven’t played my guardian in a couple of months.

Out of curiosity, what does your trait build look like at the moment? I’m using scepter/focus and staff also, and I’ve hit a point at the early 50s where I feel like I’m barely hurting the mobs. Then again, I probably need to upgrade my weapons some.

Grats, Hamfast!

Personally, I’ll have to go for double my number.

Does anyone know when we’re supposed to receive our items?

Guhracie.3419:

Chris, can you confirm that Greg Tiberius “Ghostcrawler” Street has joined the ANET development team?

If you’re joking, that’s not funny at all.

If you’re not joking, that’s still not funny.

Greg Street should go back to oceanography, because he’s a terrible game developer.

If I remember correctly, Hellebore is also used both as a poison and as a medicine. So, wearing a Hellebore flower could be considered advertising.

We’d also need to be able to buy the glue and stuffing. Last year, I was able to get everything I needed to make three of the five toys. The other 2 frames have been sitting in my bank ever since. I was really hoping to be able to make the last 2, but instead, I’ll get one of the completed toys after I finish the meta.

This is disappointing, to say the least. I spent the time getting all 5 frames, why can’t I finish making them?

I don’t think anything requiring mounts or a whole new terrestrial weapon set is workable.

As is, spears(which is essentially what a lance is) are only usable in an aquatic setting. Making the shift to using them on land requires adding a whole new set of attack animations to every profession that will be able to use them, and there will be other professions that can use them.

No other profession has a equipable weapon that is unique to that profession only.

No other profession has a mount.

While these seem like cool ideas that would make our hypothetical 3rd soldier class unique, I submit that uniqueness =/= good design.

The problem, as I see it, is twofold.

1. We need a class that is inline with the GW lore and theme. Preferably an existing GW1 idea that is redesigned for GW2, as opposed to a idea from another MMO that is shoehorned into GW2.

2. A class that uses existing mechanics and items wherever possible, so as to minimize the programing, design, and QA time. I know everybody wants something new, unique, and above all, cool for any new classes that are introduced, but Anet has finite resources to throw at something like this. The less they have to redesign the wheel, the better. Don’t forget, they also have to try and balance anything new against existing professions, so as not repeat the mistakes of other MMOs that have introduced new classes.

When WoW introduced DKs, every arena team had to have at least 1. They started off very overpowered and had a number of mechanics that people either couldn’t counter or didn’t know how to counter. It caused an uproar amongst the pvp community and left DKs with a rep as a cheesy flavor of the month class, even after they were balanced against the other classes. I would prefer not to see that happen in GW2.

I don’t know what our hypothetical 3rd soldier profession should be yet, but as soon as I can think of a good idea, I’ll post it.

I like your breakdown of the soldier, scholar, and adventurer professions. You bring up a good point about the lack of a third soldier profession, perhaps some sort of dark knight or mercenary as a counter balance.

However, I’m not sure what you’re getting at about “unique” weapons and elementalists. Furthermore, if you count the Engineer flamethrower and elixir gun, you have to count conjured weapons, since they all come from utility skills.

Back to the initial part of your post, though. What sort of “dark” soldier do you envision? I admit, this one is a little tougher to imagine for GW2 in a way that fits with the overall theme of the game. WoW did a pretty good job with Deathknights as a kind of dark paladin, once they got the balance issues worked out. I don’t think this is a solution that Anet can take for GW2, however, since the undead are all minions of the dragons.

Could someone more familiar with GW1 list off some professions that could be adapted for this role? The only thing that comes to mind is Dervishes, but I don’t think they wore heavy armor and I believe they were holy warriors, much like Guardians.

Vayne.8563:

The toxic events are relatively easy to avoid…you try it once, you see its too hard, and you stay away from them. It’s not like the big orange circle doesn’t tell you they’re there.

There are more high level characters in low level zones now than low level characters.

Yes, they’re easy enough to avoid. However, when you’re new you have a tendency to want to explore everything. Add to that the fact that the map shows this big orange circle that usually indicates a fun quest area or group event, and you wind up charging over there. Which leads to a quick death. So, you move back in cautiously and get dead anyway. Maybe try to approach stealthily and get dead anyway. I have a couple of geared 80s and still get my kitten handed to me by starting zone Toxic offshoots sometimes. Imagine how offputting that can be for a brand new player with no gear to speak of.

As far as there being more 80s in the starting zones, that isn’t true all the time or in every zone. I’m on Sanctum of Rall, which is one of the more populous servers, and I saw very few people in Caledon Forest & Metrica Province. I saw a fair number running the champ train in Queensdale(15-25), but only 1 or 2 would swing by to help with the offshoots.

In my opinion, this is not appropriate to starting zones, at all. These players are the future of GW2. If they get stomped by something in an area that is basically a tutorial zone, what does that teach them?

Fungalfoot.7213:

tinymurder.5791:

Their lack of enjoyment doesn’t affect my experience, unless I let it.

It does when they effectively get content removed from the game by throwing a tantrum. Listening to the community is all good but you have to know which part of the community is actually worth listening to. They should have listened back when people complained about the implementation of ascended.

But this? This has been a complete farce from beginning to end. At this point it’s very hard to argue that the Guild Wars 2 community is one worth participating in.

I’m neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your points about the change to the Flamekissed light armor. Nor am I arguing your opinion about the community. All I said is that this community, as a whole, is fairly tame in comparison to most of the online communities of which I have been a member. My other point, is that I usually don’t let it bother me if someone likes something I don’t like, or vice versa.

I realize that we’re talking about items bought in the BLTP used to modify items bought in game from the T3 Cultural vendor, but for me, the same philosophy applies. I may choose to post my opinions or arguments on the subject later, but if I do, it will not be to post ad hominem attacks, baseless opinion, and complaints about the state of the community. None of these things are helpful, and they are often a distraction.

P.S. In my second paragraph, I am not accusing you of any of those tactics. I am merely commenting in general.

Orpheal.8263:

…Why can’t just people kittening accept how something gets implemented, like Anet implements it ….

This is just a god darn GAME.

Really, this is really the most ridiculous (bites on my lips!!) community that I’ve ever seen

People will always have differing opinions about any content that is released. This is axiomatic where both people and games are concerned. Despite the fact that some folks on both sides have a point, it’s largely irrelevant.

As far as the community goes, I guess you never played some of the other MMOs out there. This community is positively tame, compared to WoW, XboxLive, Everquest, et cetera. Online communities get ridiculous at times, which is why I don’t post as often as I have in other games.

My advice? Just relax, enjoy the game, and let them who like to argue fight it out on the forums. Their lack of enjoyment doesn’t affect my experience, unless I let it.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Doggie.3184:

Something I always wished was possible but’ll probably never happen.

It IS possible, a little more than 6 months ago your blaring character name wouldn’t pop up.

Then, unannounced, the change happened.

not an unannounced change at all. They said that they were taking away the mechanism that prevented displaying all players in an area, due to the effect being exploited in WvW. I forget what it was called, but there was a whole series of posts about it for 3 months before they actually took it out.

@Solid Gold:

Thanks friend! I haven’t been on in almost two months, and during that time my wife let her friend make a toon to try out GW2. Apparently, she set all the graphic settings to their minimum. I boosted character model quality up one and now everyone is rendered in all their colorful glory.

Moral of the story: Never let your wife have your login info.

@Revolt: No, I didn’t at first, but yes they are wearing all the same armor. I thought that this was maybe a lag issue, but my lag and frame rate isn’t that bad. Also, it happens everywhere I go and the character textures never change.

IDK what’s going on, hopefully you guys can give me a couple of ideas for a fix or work around. I’m gonna go crawl through my settings. I’ll check back in a couple of minutes.

I take it back, it is affecting everyone, but certain items are unaffected. The person highlighted below is a necromancer. Their Fervid Censer shows up just fine, but everything else is glitched. Additionally, the outfits and body types displayed are not accurate. I ran part of TA yesterday with a guildie, and her female norn ranger looked like a tale male human. Unfortunately, I didn’t screen cap it.

Here’s a screen cap of what I’m talking about.

Since the patch on the first went through, everyone appears to be wearing white armor. Additionally, most people seem to be wearing hoods, even if they’re in heavy armor. If they don’t have any headgear on, their heads are a solid black color.

Has anyone else had this issue? I’m trying to determine if the problem is with my hardware, a corrupted patch, or if I’ve hit a genuine glitch.

Correction: Apparently this only occurs with people wearing medium armor.

PraetorMortis.8610:

Seriously…there is no way to farm as every farm in the game gets removed. (except CoF) and every item takes an enormously long time to get. This game is so slow and grind driven that I’ve begun to miss gear treadmilling. At least something (even if it’s not great) drops in raids. I can’t understand why 50% of the mobs in the game drop NO loot. What a stupid stupid stupid system.

I’ve heard all this chatter about GW2 being best MMO of the year and such. If THIS is the best game then it’s really more of a commentary on the sad state of MMORPGs in the current market.

I’m all for putting the time and playing the game for rewards but at this point, the carrots (ascended gear, legendary weapon) are so far away that I don’t even find them motivating.

Hopefully ArenaNet can do something to fun up this game a little. Would it really be so hard to make playing a little less grindy and a little more rewarding??

WoW is grindier than this game by a wide margin, & WoW isn’t even all that grindy. TSW, SWTOR, WoW, & LotRO are all waaaay grindier than GW2. I loved LotRO, but that is one of the grindiest games I’ve ever played. I think your definition of grind is askew.

Julie Yann.5379:

Spiking peoples guns is easy in an MF thread. I just couldn’t resist trolling it a bit. You did read that right. The math don’t lie, 1 less combat stat makes the gear slightly less efficient in combat but with a little more concentration you can overcome that slight ineffectiveness. That’s what I meant by working harder to be as effective but in most content it doesn’t make a difference. Here is a rough example of why?

(This is just a theoretical method of calculating combat effectiveness in a party used to better explain what I believe most pro MF peeps are trying to say. If you want actual numbers you will have to do the work yourself.)

Take a party of non MF players with exotic gear, take into account their gear, skill level, familiarity of the dungeon, blood alcohol level, levels of fatigue, reflex speed, latency, etc. Apply numbers to each of those factors and add them up to get a combat effectiveness index. Lets say this party has an index of 125 and that particular dungeon they are running needs an index of 65 in order to have success (reasonably quick, not to many deaths/downs). A party with an index of 125 will plow right through this dungeon with little effort.

Lets say 1 guy has exotic MF gear and after the math is done the groups index is 115 and they run the same dungeon. They will still plow through it with little effort cause the content requires such a low index. The fact that 1 guy is wearing MF has almost 0 impact on the success of the run. That person is not being carried or being a burden to the party and that person is not leeching from the rest of the groups extra combat stats cause those stats aren’t needed to begin with. Heck, you could probably run through some of these dungeons naked and still complete them in a timely manner.

Now if this was a lvl 48 fractal where you would need an index of 120 then I agree that the 1 guy wearing MF in that particular party.

Why is it that people seem to believe that when I disagree with them, that I don’t understand their argument. Allow me to post my rebuttal

MF benefits not a single person, except the wearer. This is self-evident.

MF comes at the cost of a combat related stat. This is self-evident.

If you are wearing a MF gear set/rune set, you are not capable of the same combat effectiveness, if you were in gear that replaced MF with a combat stat. This too, is self-evident.

All other factors being equal, MF decreases combat effectiveness. This is downright axiomatic.

If you wish to dispute thes facts, the burden of proof is on you. I get the argument that the pro-MF crowd has put forward, but their argument isn’t even an argument. It’s a theory based on one or more of the following falsehoods:

1. MF users are so skilled, they make up for any loss of capability.
2. MF users are all more skilled than non-MFusers.
3. MF gearsets are just as good as any non-MF gear set.
4. If somebody calls MF selfish, calling them intolerant nullifies their argument.

Which brings me to my problem with your index:

Not all dungeons will be at such a low index, nor will all groups have such a high index. At which point, party comp, skill level, & gear become controlling factors. Party comp is under the control of the person who forms the group & is obvious to everyone. Skill level is more nebulous, and can only be evaluated by observation over time. Additionally, it’s not obvious to anyone, until demonstrated. Lastly, gear is solely under the control of the individual player. There is no gear check system, and there’s no way to prevent dishonesty when pinging gear, as you yourself have declared. Furthermore, there’s no incentive for people to be honest.

As a result, your assumed index of 125 versus 65 may more commonly be 95 versus 90 or even 85 versus 105(isn’t making up numbers fun?).

Furthermore, just because the run was successful, doesn’t mean the MF usere wasn’t leeching. This however, is a point of view that is open to debate and may be safely disregarded at this point.

My problem, at this point, has less to do with the fact that MF needs to change. The Devs have said they’re taking a look at it, and change is on the way. At this point, my problem stems more from the amount of fuzzy logic, deflection, and selective reading going on amongst the pro-MF crowd. Only one person has made an effort to test the facts of MF ingame, & he needs a bigger sample size before the results are usable. Since the cause of my aggravation can be summed up as, “someone is wrong on the internet,” I will not be responding to this thread any longer. If someone has some proof that they think will change my mind, feel free to PM it to me.

Szamsziel.5627:

Tinymurder – once again : if I create the group I can ask for filter or limits. So why should I bother with LFG MF-friendly? The same I do not create group:
“LFG, MF Friendly, suboptimal run friendly, all chars and professions friendly, no gear checking, no zerker required…” and so on. Why should I? (BTW I’m not using explorer nor trinkets for MF on majority of my characters). Let’s have example from life : I want just any water (because I do not care what I get, I’m just thirsty). Should I bother with saying : May I ask for water, sparkling or not, it may be any brand? For me it does not matter. The same with mf – if anyone join me having mf – that’s fine. If without, also fine.

If YOU want to have non-mf group – state it. Don’t assume that everyone wants the same as you. Want to join group without specified limits? – you are welcome to join, insist on your terms and go with group or leave.

And please do not assume (this is to everyone) that all MF geared ping armor lying. If someone want me to ping and I do not want to share – I just leave. I do not want to play in the party I assumed to be bad one.

I already know why people don’t advertise LFM MF only. To do so is a gimmick, or to test a theory, like munkiman just did. Otherwise, people want something specific. Usually something that is not compatible with MF. MF users go into groups that might be hostile to their choice of gear, because they want a group that will clear content and give them a chance at better loot. An all MF group would be friendlier to this gear choice, but not necessarily the best choice for clearing content smoothly and efficiently.

Lastly, I don’t assume that all MF users lie about their gear, but there have been a number of folks on this and other threads that admit to pinging their normal gear, instead of being honest and upfront. A couple of them have even bragged about linking their MF gear and the loot they got, after the run is over. Since there’s no way to weed out the bad from the good, all MF users wind up tarred with the same brush. I can wish all day long for people to be more honest and forthright, but that won’t change human nature. The desire to get something for nothing often outweighs our sense of equality and fairplay.

munkiman.3068:

tinymurder.5791:

None of that, however, has anything to do with my post. MF users seem to be bothered by the attitude of non-MF users in dungeon groups. My post was askinf why not form your own, MF-friendly groups? Your response and the responses of others, unsurprisingly, does not address this point.

Oh well, I didn’t figure I’d get any takers. Science can wait, I guess.

A group of us did just that. It took about 3 minutes longer to complete Molten Foundry at a net gain of about 1-1.5g (across the team, not individually) using a full MF set on the same composition of professions. Hardly worth arguing over. Tougher dungeons however would be much longer i suppose.

The stat seems basically useless to me, “RNG” is pretty kitten in the game and that boost of MF gear just doesn’t seem to help much at all. I mean it works, but it’s hardly worth the sacrifice for most content.

Thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you. I could have sworn my words were falling on deaf ears. So to speak.

So, was this a group you regularly run with? Familiar people, good communication, etc? Did the increase of time seem to be directly linked to the decrease in damage, or a decrease in survivability? Please, let me know if you decide to try any more experiments.

Julie Yann.5379:

Maybe all these MF haters should just step off their high horse and get themselves some MF gear. That way everyone in the group will be contributing the same and everyone can enjoy better rewards.. Nobody will be whining about 1 guy doing less work to get more loot. Problem solved.

Truth is, when wearing full MF gear you have to do more work in maintain that same effectiveness.

So….you’re saying that MF gimps your effectiveness?

Did I read that correctly?

I just want to be sure I understand what you wrote, because the logical extension of that line is that if you are in MF gear, and everyone else isn’t, then you are contributing less than they are, while getting better rewards. Unless, of course, you are so much more skilled than the non-MF users in the party. That, by the way, is an opinion stated by more than one MF-user in this thread, the idea that MF-users are inherently more skilled. A false supposition, but a popular on regardless.

I wonder if ther person who said that it’s intolerant to ask people to not wear MF-gear, will say the same thing about your suggestion that everyone wear MF-gear. By the way, I thought that was a delightfully wicked suggestion. Spikes everyone’s guns. I tried suggesting that the MF users try running an all MF group, but so far no one is biting.

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Colin, remove MF from equipments. Make it scaled to total achievement points. Capped at 10,000 achievement points. 100 achievement points = 1% MF

No more dps whining, and long term players get even more rewards. Good way to reward loyalty and effort.

That’s an interesting idea, that is worthy of discussion. Unfortunately, it’s unlikely to be discussed rationally on the forums at this time. People on both sides feel like they’re backed into a corner, so the same argument get trotted out and ignored, regardless of validity, accuracy, or relevancy.

Cameirus.8407:

Sub optimal mf set there! 5 runes of the noble and 1 travellers/pirate gets you more mf.

If you are going sub optimal gearing then at least optimise your deficiency :p

Made me smile. Thank you.

Szamsziel.5627:

Once again. I often seek for group on LFG. When I want something specific i.e. Quick Daily run of fractal 10 then I ask for LFG FOTM 10 daily. If I want speed run in CoF with all Berserk – I’ll create such group. If I want no MF gear – I’d also ask this in the channel/LFG.

Whether you get this, is debatable, since a number of the pro-MF crowd have already said that they’ll ping their non-MF gear. My post was to see if the pro-MF crowd would even want to run a MF-friendly group. I don’t think they would, since the more people you have in the party giving up a combat stat in favor of an “adventuring” stat, the better the chance of a full party wipe. But I could be wrong, & I wanted to put the idea out there to see if someone could change my mind.

Szamsziel.5627:

If I just want to play in dungeon I’ll ask for group WITHOUT any additional requirements. And if anyone joining me suppose that I’ll go for optimal dungeon build – it is his/her concern.

Shortly – you want something. Speed run, optimal build, superb coordination – ask for it. This like in restaurant – you ask for coffee or specify your choices? Latte? Double espresso? Why can’t you do the same in game.

And this is the answer why there is no LFG MF welcome. Because if I don’t care if people have MF or not – then this is not my concern to define such filters.

I applaud your willingness to have a run that just goes at the pace of the party, or even on that is a teaching run for newbies. However, you said at the start of your post, that you would absolutely define filters, if you wanted something. The bolded section at the end of your post that was addressed to me says other wise. So, which is it? Are you in favor of filtering the group or not? Or is this to cover the reason why you don’t want to run a MF-friendly group?

I’d like to know why this is being ignored. Wouldn’t you rather try a run with people who clearly don’t care if you use MF? Seems to me that would be less stressful than dealing with people who want to ping your gear, especially if they want to know why the gear you linked is different from what you’re wearing.

AntiGw.9367:

I haven’t tried to form a specifically MF group. I have often partied with “suboptimal” players though.

Players with bad ping, bad reflexes, newbies, altoholics leveling their new toon and having gear from 20 levels earlier and no traits, you name it. Some of them may have been using MF as well. Also, a lot of them never use food buffs for some reason (even though I typically offer a large variety of food and potions that I always carry in my inventory just for that).

We never had any significant difficulties, at least nothing that I would attribute to their gear or lack of food buffs. Even the toughest encounters could be solved with a bit of teamwork and coordination.

The trick is to do the content, not to do it fast like you’re going to miss a train or something.

So, basicly, you’re saying you won’t do it? Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but my take away from your post is that you are comparing a MF group to a group of bad, inexperienced, or undergeared players. Furthermore, you seem to be implying that as a result we should just stop and enjoy the ride.

I agree that the obsession with max-efficiency speed runs can really kill the fun of running a dungeon. I also agree that there can be many reasons why a specific group either fails to complete a dungeon or has significant difficulties in completing a dungeon. Most of those reasons have little to do with MF.

None of that, however, has anything to do with my post. MF users seem to be bothered by the attitude of non-MF users in dungeon groups. My post was askinf why not form your own, MF-friendly groups? Your response and the responses of others, unsurprisingly, does not address this point.

Oh well, I didn’t figure I’d get any takers. Science can wait, I guess.

Ok, leaving aside the argument of whether people using MF sets are being selfish(I’ve already stated my case & am tired of arguing it), I do have a question for the pro-MF crowd.

With all the discontent & dislike leveled at the use of MF in dungeon groups, not to mention the outright lying that is done by some MF users to get into those groups, how come I never see people advertise this:

LF2M for CoF, MF welcome

Have any of you tried forming a MF only or MF mostly group? If so, how’d you do? If not, why not? There are a couple of you(you know who you are), who have repetetively asserted that skill will overcome the loss of the combat stat that MF replaces. Heck, some of you have gone so far as to say that MF players are more skilled than the rest of us schlubs.

So, prove it. Form your own MF only or MF friendly group and document your results. According to the posts I’ve read from MF players, such a group should have zero dificulty clearing content. After all, you already claim to be able to vouch for the superior skill of all MF users and the ability of skill to compensate for any loss in DPS or survivability. What have you possibly got to lose?

Extra points in your favor, if you:

1. Take random players, as opposed to stacking the group with people you already know possess high skill.

2. Stack full Explorers Gear with all 6 superior Runes of the Noble

Mirta.5029:

If they added infusion slots on all armor specifically for mf/ gold/ karma, what exactly are you sacrificing?

…that’s you big suggestion? That they put in an infusion slot, just for MF? Why not suggest a toggle switch in your settings? You could have a slider bar to select MF, Gold, Karma, or none. How about and auto-farm button?

All sarcasm aside, your suggestion boils down to telling Anet, “I don’t like your drop table/monetary scale/karma rate. Gimme more.” Thus, I find it extremely difficult to seriously consider this a solution.

Star Ace.5207:

tinymurder.5791:

People using MF are sacrificing part of either their DPS or their survivability in order to get better loot. By doing so, they reduce their contributions to the group’s efforts, in order to increase their personal gain. While running solo, this is a matter of your personal choice. When running with a group, this is a wholely selfish choice. If you cannot see this, then we have nothing further to discuss & I bid you good night.

It has nothing to do with morals or “selfishness.” Many non-MF users are selfish too.

Good night to you as well.

Wasn’t speaking to you, but since you piped up:

I’m not saying it has anything to do with morality. I’ll even concede the point that not all people using MF are doing so out of selfishness, and I have never said that nonMF users aren’t selfish.

However, when the facts are laid out and you still decide to use MF gear, then yes you are making a selfish decision. Therefore, don’t be upset when the non-MF users selfishly decide they don’t want to run dungeons with you.

Good night to you as well.

Star Ace.5207:

“Gear limitations” are tied to player experience, skills, Professions, and builds. There are no specific ways to conquer content other than being good at conquering it. Therefore, he may surprise you with his “inferior” gear, because of superior skill and teamwork/synergy.

Feel free to disagree, and it’s not personal.

You make a very good point about the importance of skill and teamwork, especially how they can overturn a deficit of gear, and I cannot agree enough.

However, you have to have a frame of reference to evaluate skill & teamwork. to evaluate these qualities, it helps to look at gear, since that is a variable that is able to be controlled. After all, if you have two characters that are the same class and are in the same gear, you have reduced the variables that can cloud an assessment of skill.

Gear is not the be all, end all. Many players, and other MMO’s have made that mistake, and look only at gear as a benchmark of skill. Gear is merely a modifier. If you have someone who is in the best gear possible, but is completely unskilled, they will doing reasonably well, through sheer brute power & random chance. Until they run into a skilled player in average gear. The unskilled player may get lucky, but they are more likely to be destroyed by someone who knows their profession & build. Give the skilled player better gear, or the unskilled player worse gear, and the gap in skill level becomes even more noticeable.

Which brings me back to MF gear. If you’re a bad kitten in MF gear, think how much better you’r be in non-MF gear.

Edit: Dang, the poster above me beat me to the point.

Star Ace.5207:

odysseas.1786:

They will all secretely be annoyed at your better drops and less contribution but they’ll let it slip.

If they would be secretly annoyed at a friend for their good fortune, I wonder if they were really “nice friends” to begin with.

I can’t relate with all the begrudging of someone else’s fortune. It’s not as if MF find guaranteed that player the “better” drops. The improvement exists, but good drops will still be hard to come by. And if he/she gets better drops, what’s the problem? What do you have to lose by someone else’s gain?

“We could have been faster!” But also slower. Things could have gone in many directions, positive or negative, and regardless of gear used.

It doesn’t bother me when other people get “better” loot. If they get a cool piece, good for them. After all, it could be me next time. What bothers me, is when people sacrifice utility for personal gain and the try to say they aren’t affecting anything.

All other things being equal, if you are using MF gear, you are contributing less than the other individuals in your group. Yet, you get a better chance at “better” loot, while others get a better chance at a higher repair bill.

I don’t think that Anet needs to remove MF entirely, but I do think the implementation needs to be reconsidered.

As far as the argument that the run could have gone better, regardless of gear used, I submit to you this idea:

Gear is a modifier to survivability and damage output. If your modifier is low, the run takes longer, which means the more time you spend on a given target. This allows for more random variables to creep in. Higher modifier equals less time on target, which in turn equals less variables to account for in a given run.

Just an idea I’m working on.

Mirta.5029:

tinymurder.5791:

Excellent point. Let’s remove MF, then.

funny thing is that trough out half of this page I’m explaining that the only way to be fair would be to remove mf off gear sets and make a separate infusion slot for it.
But that you for ignoring those points and calling me thick. I appreciate when people that know nothing about me insult my intelligence.

You’re correct, I shouldn’t have called you thick. It was inappropriate of me to make a personal attack, & I apologize. Now let me address the rest of your comment on it’s merits, or rather it’s lack of any such thing.

I think it’s more accurate to say that throughout this entire thread you’ve been trying to convince people that MF is some sort of sacred personal choice that has no impact on the rest of your party.

I don’t care that you want to make it an infusion, that doesn’t change the fact that you will be replacing a stat that indirectly benefits the entire party, with a stat that directly benefits only you. What you’ve suggested is nothing more than a shell game that fails to address the fundamental flaw of MF.

The fact is this:

People using MF are sacrificing part of either their DPS or their survivability in order to get better loot. By doing so, they reduce their contributions to the group’s efforts, in order to increase their personal gain. While running solo, this is a matter of your personal choice. When running with a group, this is a wholely selfish choice. If you cannot see this, then we have nothing further to discuss & I bid you good night.

Einlanzer.1627:

tinymurder.5791:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Once again, this doesn’t make sense. It’s not unfair for the MF user, because the MF user is benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other party members. The superior combatants are benefiting from the MF character.

By its very definition, dungeoning is a group effort. Not an individual one. You guys are seriously off the mark with this.

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

Seriously, you are thick. YOU ARE SHARING ALL STATS. It’s a team sport. Just because the stats aren’t literally divided doesn’t mean they aren’t functionally. Good players/builds bring the whole team up, bad ones bring the whole team down.

you don’t benefit from someone else having vitality or toughness, the same way that you don’t benefit from someone having mf. It’s a stat that they have. The same way that you don’t benefit from other’s damage if you’re unable to deliver 10% of it to tag a mob before it dies, therefore getting no loot.

Excellent point. Let’s remove MF, then.

No it isn’t. I’m amazed by this conversation.

I know it’s not an excellent point, I’m just tired of listening to this person try to explain that they aren’t being selfish when they wear their +MF gear set, and they are actually being productive. I wouldn’t bother trying to explain it to them anymore, because they’re either thick or a troll.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Once again, this doesn’t make sense. It’s not unfair for the MF user, because the MF user is benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other party members. The superior combatants are benefiting from the MF character.

By its very definition, dungeoning is a group effort. Not an individual one. You guys are seriously off the mark with this.

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

Seriously, you are thick. YOU ARE SHARING ALL STATS. It’s a team sport. Just because the stats aren’t literally divided doesn’t mean they aren’t functionally. Good players/builds bring the whole team up, bad ones bring the whole team down.

you don’t benefit from someone else having vitality or toughness, the same way that you don’t benefit from someone having mf. It’s a stat that they have. The same way that you don’t benefit from other’s damage if you’re unable to deliver 10% of it to tag a mob before it dies, therefore getting no loot.

Excellent point. Let’s remove MF, then.

Mirta.5029:

there is a new gear set.
Vitality being the highest stat, then toughness, then power. A mf user will outdamage this person. Do you think that the person in those stats is selfish? You would say, no, they survive well. Then why do you oppose mf user? Because even if he survives without vit/ toughness he could sacrifice mf for extra damage, because he is being selfish. So essentially he is being selfish by not providing enough damage even though he can outdamage other gear sets. Not to mention the gear set with mf and condi damage. Condi damage never comes with power anyway. But no, those people are guilty of something too. It’s selfish to care about what others wear.

The person in V/T/P gear sacrificed damage for survivability, where as the person in MF gear traded either damage or survival for more phat loots. The first person made a valid choice that can still benefit them & their party. The second person made a choice that only benefits them, and brings nothing to the party. If you want to wear MF gear when soloing, that is your perogative. The moment you join a group to run instances, you have a responsibility to more than just yourself.

This is not a difficult concept.

MF needs to either be tweaked, or removed. I hope they are able to make it a viable part of the game, but if they can’t, I’m ok with it going away.

The bugging of the cattlepult is fairly recent. Probably has to do with one of the recent living story patches.

Aveneo.2068:

How about more HP and more mobility instead; as your damage is already more than enough. I personally wouldn’t want to see the Stealth mechanic vanish entirely, just reworked into the F2-F3 and merging some of the traits so its function becomes more tactical.

I support this suggestion. I think that Anet originally wanted a more tactical stealth, anyway. That would explain why they didn’t give thieves a permastealth, like in WoW. Somewhere along the way, though, they took a step in a less useful direction.

Sil.4560:

Advent Leader.1083:

While Stealth may have a bad rep, at least now the tech’s there for countering stealth (there’s a bonus in WvW with AC that has the force removal of stealth, I believe, but it takes a lot of points). It’ll only be a matter of time before classes have an implementation for it.

This will be a glorious day, when the untalented baddies can no longer have an instant get out of jail free card when they’re getting their kitten kicked and want to flee.

How dare they try to survive you killing them! The nerve of some people!

-.-

Thieves aren’t the only ones with a get out of jail free card. Elementalist have multiple ways to cure crippled, immobilized, & chilled, as well as gaining swiftness. So do Guardians & Rangers, too. In fact, most classes have more than one way to remove conditions and/or pick up speed.

Maybe we should pull those abilities from those other classes. Not yours, of course. For you, Anet should totally install the “I win” button.

Can we get back to constructive posting now, or shall we snark some more, complaining about “baddies” that we couldn’t figure out how to beat?

Deamhan.9538:

Each profession can have its own style. Its own way about doing what the other classes do.

As for the Thief. How about instead of the thief being about damage avoidance with stealth, it is about damage avoidance through more evades and dodge rolls. Hell, from a full meter, each class can dodge twice in a row. What if the thief can do it a third time. A lot of their skills already have evades.

Honestly there should only be two stealth skills for them. One is a skill that only grants stealth while out of combat. In combat it becomes an evade with the visual of going stealth for the duration of the evade. This could even be a signet. The passive effect grants stealth but as soon as you are in combat you lose the passive effect. The +50% movement speed while in stealth trait would have to be changed to 25%.

Then there is the skill that can be used in combat. This would be a stun breaker and would remove conditions that effect movement. It would also grant a 25% movement speed which would stack with the 25% given by the trait. The length on the stealth would be sufficient enough that you can get far enough to break combat and the passive effect of the signet would take over. The CD on this skill would be pretty long. Long enough that if you tried to only pop out of stealth to hit then use it and vanish every time it is off CD, the person you are trying to get would also be out of combat (since you broke combat with them) long enough for their hp to refill.

This basically gives them the capability to move around unseen and pick their targets. It also gives them a means to escape if it looks like they are about to die. However, it also means that in order for them to actually fight someone, they have to stay visible and fight them. Their means to avoid damage is now through the use of evades.

Finally, we get to some constructive suggestions. This is more like what I was expecting as a response. The funny part is, you’ve just suggested ways to keep stealth, when you were trying to get rid of it earlier. At this point I’m tired of writing, so I’ll respond to your suggestions in a different post.

A suggestion before I go:

Try making your posts more like the last four paragraphs and people will consider you a reasoned and intelligent poster. Keep making them snarky, like the first half of your post, and you just sound like a pillock

Deamhan.9538:

By equal I mean balanced. So it is irrelevant what you mean by equal.

Balanced does not always mean equal. That is the point I was making in my previous post.

Deamhan.9538:

Yeah, what’s the world coming to when the deciding factor on who wins is who is the better player and not some crutch mechanic.

Once again, my point is that skill, not luck should be the deciding factor. By making everything “equal” , rather than balanced, you also decrease the impact of skill. An encounter becomes a matter of, “who hits first, wins.” Additionally, calling stealth a “crutch mechanic” is an opinion, not a fact. You could make the same statement about a mesmer’s phantasms, a warrior’s fury, a elementalist’s attunement, et cetera. Stealth is just a core mechanic for a thief. It’s a core mechanic that needs to be tweaked, but it’s not an “I win” button.

Deamhan.9538:

I’m talking about balance between the professions, not the game consisting of just one profession. It also doesn’t matter either way. If the professions are balanced or two people are fighting each other with the same profession, it will come down to who the better player is. Sure there will always be a “luck” factor, that is something that exists in everything but the stealth mechanic and how it is implemented in this game stacks the odds. Thus, it detracts from the need of skill.

Never did I speak of the game consisiting of only one profession. The example I gave was to illustrate how a fight between two balanced, yet unequal professions, will go to the more skilled/knowledgeable player. If both professions are “equal”, then all we have is an open world version of Street Fighter 2 and all of our choices are Ryu.

Deamhan.9538:

Of course you do, so long as the stealth tips the scale in your favor.

…what? Please don’t try putting words in my mouth. I have a thief, but I don’t play her much. I haver in fact, never played her in WvW or PvP. I currently main an elementalist and a warrior, not a thief, so I’m not sure if you’re trying to get rise out of me, or if you’re just cherry-picking my post for quotes to be snarky with.

As I said earlier, I agree that stealth needs to be tweaked. I disagree with the statement that it reduces depth and skill. It doesn’t take much skill to be annoying with stealth, but it does require skill to be effective and deadly. I’ve been jumped in WvW on my warrior before, by thief with better gear. They dropped my health by half, in one shot, and loaded me down with conditions. I popped Endure Pain & Signet of Stamina, healed and commenced to beat the tar out of that thief. They couldn’t kill me, despite their best efforts. Unfortunately, my gear wasn’t all that great & I couldn’t quite kill them either. We were at a stalemate, until their friend showed up before mine did.

If that thief had been better at his class, than I am at mine, he could have smoked me. If stealth was the “I win” button that so many people in this thread have said it is, he should’ve smoked me. The fact is, he didn’t. Furthermore, I know this is pure opinion here, but I had a blast. We were far from being equal, but somehow, our classes balanced out. Weird.

Deamhan.9538:

Uruz Six.6594:

Amun Ra.6435:

Sooooo… you suggesting you NEED more than one person to take down a thief? If this doesn’t sound broken to you I don’t know what will.

I’m saying what’s broken is complaining about 1 vs 1 and neglecting that WvW and PvP is about team play.

1 =/= 2. Thus it should never require a minimum of two people to counter the class mechanic of just one. Balancing it based on 1 vs 1 is EXACTLY how it should be done.

Once A = B, B = C, and C=D, then A+B=C+D, A+C=B+D, and A+D=B+C.

Then everything will be equal. By equal, I mean identical and identical equals boring. Identical is another way of saying that skill is not required. As things stand, the classes in GW2 are fairly well balanced, without being equal.

Look at it this way:

If you take 2 people of equal skill, equal gear, equal damage dealing capability, equal survivability, and equal mobility, then the person who loses will be the one who either makes the first mistake or, more likely, get’s unlucky.

If you have 2 classes that differ in their dps v/s survivability, mobility v/s dps, survivability v/s mobility, etc, then you have a challenge of skill v/s skill. Luck, and the RNG become influences to deal with, rather than the deciding factor. It becomes possible to recover from a mistake, rather than be doomed by the inevitable mathmatics of “equality”.

Stealth may be annoying at times(trust me, I’ve been smoked by thieves often enough in WvW to understand the frustration), but it does come with a cost to the player who chooses to make a thief. It needs to be tweaked, but if the choice is having stealth & inequality, or equality and no stealth, I choose stealth.

P.S. my three main characters are a warrior, an elementalist, and a ranger. My thief is a distant 5th, and is unlikely to be seeing the inside of WvW anytime soon.

Panzerjaeger.7612:

pdboddy.4162:

Panzerjaeger.7612:

I say we let the Inquest do everything for us while we kick back and relax.

You’d think that would be a cool idea, but you’d never get your place back if you let the Inquest have what they want. You’d have to kill them all…

But murder is wrong!

When it comes to the Inquest, it’s a case of, “kill all you want, we’ll make more!”

Seriously. I hate those guys. Almost as much as I hate their respawn rate.