Guild Wars 2

So, many of you wants to just spam your 1 and kill ur enemies and thats call SKILLS? LOLed at that, what kind of e-sport contain THAT KIND OF SKILLS?

To be honest, i personally think GW2’s is full of tooooo much spammable and low-risk ranged attack, that make no sense because it encourage player to just spam their 1 attack without thinking, without any consequence. They just want to spam their 1 and kill people at safe range, that is totally non-sense of a game wanted to be e-sport. As a game wanted to be part of e-sport, no matter ranged or melee should contain the same amount of skill to achieve certain purpose. The game should reduce the usage/dmg of attack 1 which had no cool down to aviod ranged player spam it brainlessly, and should buff the dmg of their ranged skills with cool downs in return. That, could bring a more fair and competitive environment for melee and ranged class.

Mufa.1326:

Wanted to bring this up as well:
When people try to talk about imbalance of some classes in 1v1 situations, the answer often seems to be ‘game is balanced around 5v5, not 1v1’.
Personally I think this is a BS answer. Game should be balanced in any setting (1v1, 3v3 and 5v5 situations).
It is just easier to hide severe imbalances of a class when you are talking about 5v5 (other team can also get that class and the fact that one or two classes in a group of 5 are overpowered gets toned down ‘on average’ so it does not look that bad), so there is this myth going around how they are balancing the game around 5v5.

And note, balances in different settings are not that difficult to achieve. It is not impossible to nerf 1v1 aspect of a class while buffing it in group setting or the other way around.

That is what exactly i want to bring out in my previous post “Balance classes through Duel”. As Anet still adapt the paper scissor rock balancing system and don’t balance out classes in 1v1 setting, this game will never achieve high skill-cap level like any other e-sport game does.

In a tPvP scenario, people will tend to switch their class/build when they saw some hard-counter to their class on the enemies team. This, for sure brings a huge strategic play to the game. However, it also let players attribute their failure to their class more than to themselves – their skills; “When A class are meant to lose to B class, what can i do with my skill on this class? i better run another class who can deal with him”.

The lack of class balance and current game mechanism encourage players to attribute externally rather than internal. It encourage players to seek out solution via switching classes/build rather than improving their own skills. And i believe that is why even top tier player switching their class so often. Shouldn’t this be a problem that Anet need to look at when they wanted GW2 to become an e-sport game?

he is a really good thief

when will u get online

Arheundel.6451:

xiNe.6958:

Actually i am pretty sure that those philosophy of classes were wrote recently to fool us, not before they made the classes.

the reason hold my points is that… look closely to those lines, Anet rises roles of classes in those philosophy, it contradict with what they claim before the game launch; no holy trinity, every class can fill every role as player wants it to, blah blah blah. most importantly, why they announce this after 4 months from game launch but not at the beginning? and why the description match current meta so perfectly? :/

and look closely to the philosophy of thief and warrior again, both provide burst but warrior need to be babysat and thief are self-dependent meanwhile with higher mobility and survivability, so obviously this philosophy just simply told everyone to pick thief rather than warrior. WARRIOR DELETED

is there anyone really think that Anet build their classes through a stupid philosophy like this? i don’t think so.

A warrior rely on heavy armour and health to go through dmg, while a thief rely on stealth to stay alive, the problem is that people think a warrior is only 100b when in reality a hammer or mace warrior is equally if not more viable than 100b.
I played with and against mace/hammer warriors and I can assure you that they’re way more than dangerous than a simple 100b , in the end all professions offer burst options but in different ways and you need to adapt accordingly to your team composition..the " a build to rule them all" really doesn’t cut in an e-sport scenario.

one question here, if heavy armor and health is viable in gw2’s pvp, why we don’t have any bunker warrior who perform at least equal to bunker guardian or ele when those two best bunker classes both doesn’t have high health pool and armor? armor and health doesn’t help survivability, mobility/protection/vigor does.

sure in a duel situation hammer+mace/shield do much better than GS. However what tpvp needs is mobility to support and high burst. can you support around faster than a burst thief? can they survive in a team fight meanwhile provide more dmg than a thief? i personally really don’t see warrior do any better than a thief in tpvp as in the role of roam/support

Actually i am pretty sure that those philosophy of classes were wrote recently to fool us, not before they made the classes.

the reason hold my points is that… look closely to those lines, Anet rises roles of classes in those philosophy, it contradict with what they claim before the game launch; no holy trinity, every class can fill every role as player wants it to, blah blah blah. most importantly, why they announce this after 4 months from game launch but not at the beginning? and why the description match current meta so perfectly? :/

and look closely to the philosophy of thief and warrior again, both provide burst but warrior need to be babysat and thief are self-dependent meanwhile with higher mobility and survivability, so obviously this philosophy just simply told everyone to pick thief rather than warrior. WARRIOR DELETED

is there anyone really think that Anet build their classes through a stupid philosophy like this? i don’t think so.

Pick your role…and then pick your profession….

along with your statement, Anet should rather delete the warrior as other classes can do any given roles better than them

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Jumper.9482:

You can die in 1-combo if you don’t combobreak it correctly.
Just like in GW2 how you can die in 1 hundredblades or backstab if you don’t stunbreak it.
DN is far more unforgiving to casuals than GW2.

I dont know about that
Based on the video , that person need 40 sec to oblitarate the other
So he has 40 sec to react :P

http://www.aipai.com/c9/ODc8ICUkIGgnaiMr.html
watch this, you will know more about DN’s pvp in this video. This two guys acutally not differ that much in strength, but because the other guys misused his combobreak skill 1~2times and he got chain hit as shown in the video. Fyi, some of the misused combobreak of the guy being hit was “forced” by his opponent, because he cant use at other time in the combo if he missed that chance as he lose control of the fighting tempo to his opponent and fail to tweak it.

And, those video you watch are undoubtedly newbie players…you should watch some high level play, here is another high level pvp video which demonstrated lighting speed reflexes;
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzY2MTA4ODU2.html

toughness = joke
protection/evade is way more useful

Jumper.9482:

Atlas.6901:

I imagine that the CC-lock that Seether mentions actually takes quite a bit of skill. My impression from playing it as that you have to have a fairly deep knowledge of the game to effectively juggle a competent player for any length of time. Also, the game was entirely aim-based.

Every class has a ‘combo breaker’ ability on a 25 second cooldown I believe.
@OP, I think this vid much better represents DN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZveyXikVUCo
Also, from what I remember the Korean WCG last year was filled with Gladiators and Priests (totem spam omg…)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEjBm3kGCvY
Myself soloing the highest level/mode Boss level in the NA Beta a little over a year ago.
(I was also among the first to solo Minotaur’s Nest on NA when it was released)

I think we shouldn’t focus too much on DN as this is GW2 forum :/. Btw, it is 18 second cold down right now in the latest version. And that WCG means nothing to the game because every good players in China/Taiwan was play under some “unspoken rules” to maintain class balance and competitive. But that WCG didn’t adopt those “unspoken rules”. Therefore, champion of that WCG was regard as despicable instead of the most skilled player in the game.

Expansive.3716:

xiNe.6958:

i was one of the best pvp Destroyer in Taiwan DN, and now i am trying to play competitively in GW2 pvp with current ranking 36. To me, which separate DN and GW2 most is their fighting style and the emphasis placed on fighting.

DN require skills more on individual level and are action-oriented; Even though class counter still exist in DN, player plays a more important role here than their class. if you are very skilled, you can somewhat break through your class limit and have some good fight with your counter class. it depends more on player’s control.

GW2 in my opinion placed it’s focus more on team and tactic play; how player combine their skill/build with each other on the team, what to do at the right moment or how to fight as a team. there are lots of hard counter of every build or classes in this game which makes it became less individual skills required than DN, it is not about how much you skilled, it is more about how you built your class and try to make it less hard countered as much as possible. After that, team cooperate follows and player skills come last.

Not to say which is a better pvp style, but that is what all i feel after 3 months of pvp in GW2 and 2 years of pvp in DN. i love pvp of both game, but i would like to see more action feature added to GW2 as Anet claim that they want player focus more on action than stat in GW2.

very nice post sir. And this is a pretty good thread

I’ve always wanted to try Dragon’s Nest but for some reason I never got into it. I think it was due in part to the Asian version of the game being more updated than it’s US counterpart, and I really didn’t want to wait to get the same features months later.

Anyway, I used to watch tons of DN videos because they were so interesting and exciting to watch. DN is much more technical than GW2 and it does require a higher learning curve.

Both games has their pros and cons but I can only hope that GW2 brings that same excitement that DN does from a spectator’s vantage point. Right now I watch GW2 pvp and it’s meh right now, but when watching DN it’s just so compelling

i think the reason that pvp Gameplay of DN compelling more than GW2 was simply because the weigh of “action element” of the game. It is like comparing Street-fighter and League of Legends in terms of attractiveness from the spectator’s point of view; no way to compare. Definitively more “action element” in a game will make it much more easy understandable to public, but it doesn’t matter how competitive the game are, imo.

Undoubtedly GW2 outweigh DN in many ways in PvP in terms of getting ready for E-sport; structured play, more tactic used, required more teamwork, more organized tournament system. But the only thing DN better than GW2 in my opinion is the combat system. It seems weird to me that Anet adopted some action element into GW2 but they still built it in the traditional MMORPG way. For example, tones of AOE, tones of cast-on-ground skills, if A then B skills (cc>breakstun, condition>removal) and spammable 1-1-1-1 as the main source of damage. Just curious if they want the game become more action-oriented why they still added these undodgeable feature which makes the fight more like “stay away and use a much skill as possible on the enemy before they hit me and use those if A then B skills to re-position if they approach me” rather than “trying to dodge enemy’s skill and hit them”.

Right now, GW2 pvp give me a feel that dodge is not the main sources to mitigate damage, it is more about positioning and breaksun/stability. Dodge is useful but not that essential in a fight, which makes the game less action-oriented. Hope Anet notice this and make it better in the future.

Don’t get me wrong, i love GW2 a lot and just curious about some game mechanism and try to give out my opinion. Btw, my English wasn’t good enough, please don’t be too picky.

i was one of the best pvp Destroyer in Taiwan DN, and now i am trying to play competitively in GW2 pvp with current ranking 36. To me, which separate DN and GW2 most is their fighting style and the emphasis placed on fighting.

DN require skills more on individual level and are action-oriented; Even though class counter still exist in DN, player plays a more important role here than their class. if you are very skilled, you can somewhat break through your class limit and have some good fight with your counter class. it depends more on player’s control.

GW2 in my opinion placed it’s focus more on team and tactic play; how player combine their skill/build with each other on the team, what to do at the right moment or how to fight as a team. there are lots of hard counter of every build or classes in this game which makes it became less individual skills required than DN, it is not about how much you skilled, it is more about how you built your class and try to make it less hard countered as much as possible. After that, team cooperate follows and player skills come last.

Not to say which is a better pvp style, but that is what all i feel after 3 months of pvp in GW2 and 2 years of pvp in DN. i love pvp of both game, but i would like to see more action feature added to GW2 as Anet claim that they want player focus more on action than stat in GW2.

NaturalPortman.9562:

xiNe.6958:

Those 1v1s never end because it’s against a guardian or ele

and that is class balance problem imo

No because the class balance is balanced around the conquest 5v5. Guardians have a great role in 5v5 but they can’t really kill anyone.

if classes balanced in this sense, that means a rock scissors paper balance. what is the role of “skill” in this balancing system? no matter how good the player is, if he is using a scisscors class(whatever besides conditions), that mean he can never win a rock class(bunker), is that fun?

Those 1v1s never end because it’s against a guardian or ele

and that is class balance problem imo

NaturalPortman.9562:

xiNe.6958:

NaturalPortman.9562:

xiNe.6958:

This is guild wars not street fighter. Oh and balancing a game for 1v1 is completely different than balancing a game in a team style game. Good luck balancing one without kittening up the other.

if so, why the 5v5 conquest emphasize so much on personal level skill and why is it there? should they make the game be like 16v16 or sth similar which fit the role more to “Guild Wars”?

It doesn’t 5v5 is more about positioning and team communication. Let me give you a great example right now. Let’s say duels do exist with this current build of the game, would you consider the Moa Transform elite to be fair in that situation? No one left to save your kitten there and you basically lost the second you get Moa’d

Now that skill is NOT broken in a traditional 5v5, but you would think it was in a 1v1 and that is where the balancing issues come in.

No it doesn’t broken, you are right. But it does bring huge advantage in small team fight, how much 5v5 can happens in a whole conquest match? most of the time they are fighting separately like 1v1/1v2/2v3/2v2. and yes, like Moa tranform elite, some skill there are work better in duel and that is why most team need those classes as side node holder as they always need to win a 1v1 situation and those classes show up much more than others in tourney.

1v1 only happens for a few seconds at most, that 1v1 turns into a 3v1 or 2v1 in tournies.

and then other nodes are happening 1v2 or 1v1 again

NaturalPortman.9562:

xiNe.6958:

This is guild wars not street fighter. Oh and balancing a game for 1v1 is completely different than balancing a game in a team style game. Good luck balancing one without kittening up the other.

if so, why the 5v5 conquest emphasize so much on personal level skill and why is it there? should they make the game be like 16v16 or sth similar which fit the role more to “Guild Wars”?

It doesn’t 5v5 is more about positioning and team communication. Let me give you a great example right now. Let’s say duels do exist with this current build of the game, would you consider the Moa Transform elite to be fair in that situation? No one left to save your kitten there and you basically lost the second you get Moa’d

Now that skill is NOT broken in a traditional 5v5, but you would think it was in a 1v1 and that is where the balancing issues come in.

No it doesn’t broken, you are right. But it does bring huge advantage in small team fight, how much 5v5 can happens in a whole conquest match? most of the time they are fighting separately like 1v1/1v2/2v3/2v2. and yes, like Moa tranform elite, some skill there are work better in duel and that is why most team need those classes as side node holder as they always need to win a 1v1 situation and those classes show up much more than others in tourney.

I understand you want the game to be balanced in 1v1 as well as in a team situation, but that’s not really feasible while retaining class individuality. To play on your NBA example: every player absolutely needs to be talented and skilled, however they don’t need to have equal talents and skills. They do, however, need to have talents and skills that complement one another and the overall increase the efficacy of the team. Part of the fun and challenge, in my opinion, is playing to your teammates strengths and compensating for their weaknesses.

agreed to your idea of compensate. however it is based on the idea that the skill level doesn’t have a huge difference between every player. is that the case now in GW2’s class balance? if one class can’t fit any role in conquest and others just perform better in any way, why do i choose that class? why i need to have that class in my team? What can that overall fall behinded class can compensate for me? i personally think that is the problem of GW2’s class balance in tPvP atm.

This is guild wars not street fighter. Oh and balancing a game for 1v1 is completely different than balancing a game in a team style game. Good luck balancing one without kittening up the other.

if so, why the 5v5 conquest emphasize so much on personal level skill and why is it there? should they make the game be like 16v16 or sth similar which fit the role more to “Guild Wars”?

Guild Wars is already happening in WvW, you can found what you want in it. PvP is abbreviation of Player versus Player which means its should more concern on individual level.

First of all, sorry about my poor English. What i am trying to mention in this post is the importance of dueling in this game. Seems that most people on this forum thought GW2 is a team based game and so duel shouldn’t be on high working priority. However, duel is the core element which makes team based game balance. Dueling arena may not be the top priority but balancing classes based on duel should be.

Lets begin with the current mechanism of tPvP, Basically, most team formed up by 1 bunker + 2 roamer +1 supporter + 1 side node holder (sure there are variety, but this is the basic formation of a team). Normally, besides the team fight started at the very beginning of the middle node or sometimes the side node, tPvP is all about how the roamer/supporter support around the side point and middle point. base on this, which means most of the time, the side node holder and middle node holder needs to duel or even handle couple enemies on their own until their roamer/supporter come. apart from that, almost every team pick their side node holder base on how good they can duel meanwhile with some mobility. No victorious can be gain if a team lose every single duel in the match.

In fact, There are just some classes good at dueling in nature than others at the current meta, this is not about HOW you build your class, it is all about WHAT class you are. And that is also why some class are so popular in tPvP and some doesn’t even show up.

Just an example. How can a basketball team be pro if the player itself is not? Can you imagine Lakers are full of unskilled noobs who cant even dribble properly and still get the championship? That cant be possible because a good team is based on skillful player. TEAMWORK is based on PERSONAL SKILL. A team works well because people inside the team does well personally + communication with each other. Same sense, how can a so called team based game neglect class duel balance as it is the essential part of team fight balance? as the current tPvP meta need good dueler in a team, balancing through class duel is a must in my opinion. Surely the devs can balance the class secretly and test by their own. But a better way to do that should be implant the duel arena without ranking, let player test it out and take their suggestion for class balancing. So, please give us duel arena

What is your thought about it?