Balance in PvE vs WvWvW vs PvP

Balance in PvE vs WvWvW vs PvP

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

I think profession balance would be best if it separated pvp from wvw from pve.

Any thoughts?

[ARES]
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Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Conncept.7638

Conncept.7638

Agreed, ANets philosophy that ‘combat is combat’ is flawed. You are fighting for a purpose, a certain win condition, that varies completely between PvE, PvP, and WvW. Therefore the best way to fight, to fulfill those conditions, makes combat mechanics and even basic stats from one area less or more applicable in another.

(edited by Conncept.7638)

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Posted by: Ancient Ranger.3276

Ancient Ranger.3276

They do not balance for PvE(This is included into the WvW balancing) and they said they seperated sPvP and WvW when all they did was nerf healing in sPvP and called it seperated.

√Čleura Elementalist’s on YB
Elementalist
#Ele

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Agreed, ANets philosophy that ‘combat is combat’ is flawed, how combat plays out is dependent on what you are fighting for, the intention of combat between PvE, PvP, and WvW are completely different.

For instance, and I think most importantly conditions. They work vastly different on a boss with several hundred thousand HP and a single player with 10k. Conditions being buffed as a whole would be detrimental, but in pve it would be good.

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(edited by Lilith Ajit.6173)

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Ranger, you’re right that they don’t. I’m saying they should.

[ARES]
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Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: BAEK.8561

BAEK.8561

I’m not sure about PvE, but IMO, there shouldn’t be a difference in skills/traits between WvW and sPvP. It’s simply unintuitive and confusing to users. Heck, I wouldn’t mind if skills/traits where same across all of sPvP, WvW, and PvE.

{Sanctum of Rall} Since Day -3
Weekend Guardian/Elementalist
No Guild Affiliation

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

I’m not sure about PvE, but IMO, there shouldn’t be a difference in skills/traits between WvW and sPvP. It’s simply unintuitive and confusing to users. Heck, I wouldn’t mind if skills/traits where same across all of sPvP, WvW, and PvE.

That makes sense. I guess the situation there is, it’s not all pvp in wvw, there are some pve places. But I think you’re right about it being the same.

Pve is just different. Creatures =\= players.

[ARES]
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Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: J Eberle.9312

J Eberle.9312

Absolutely agree with OP.

Isn’t reason this has not been done is they think we are not smart enough to recognize differences between pve and pvp versions of skills?

Well, I honestly think we can.

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Posted by: Ancient Ranger.3276

Ancient Ranger.3276

Ranger, you’re right that they don’t. I’m saying they should.

Honestly I do not think they should balance for PvE. They have a hard enough time balancing for WvW and sPvP. You should have no problem beating any AI with no brain that is mindlessly following you around and using its skill with any build

√Čleura Elementalist’s on YB
Elementalist
#Ele

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

this thread is relevant to my interests. +1

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Ranger, you’re right that they don’t. I’m saying they should.

Honestly I do not think they should balance for PvE. They have a hard enough time balancing for WvW and sPvP. You should have no problem beating any AI with no brain that is mindlessly following you around and using its skill with any build

Do you do dungeons? I really don’t think you understand what I’m talking about when I say pve.

[ARES]
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Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Belzebu.3912

Belzebu.3912

The thing in balance in PvE is not that a class have issues against the mobs, the problem is that some classes is much more powerful than others and have an easier time in PvE.

Talking as a ranger I watched many nerfs across PvE, PvP and WvW that was balanced only by PvP, for example pets damage reduction, in PvP it made sense, but in PvE and WvW it was ridiculous, later they gave pets HP buff only in PvE but not in PvP and WvW, in PvP it is ok but in WvW was the only place where pets actually needed the HP buff.

Resuming, some balances should be different in PvP, PvE and WvW.

Charter Vanguard [CV] – HoD
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Posted by: Iavra.8510

Iavra.8510

I’m not sure about PvE, but IMO, there shouldn’t be a difference in skills/traits between WvW and sPvP. It’s simply unintuitive and confusing to users. Heck, I wouldn’t mind if skills/traits where same across all of sPvP, WvW, and PvE.

There are still differences, a few examples:
- WvW has more open spaces and you don’t need to be capping points all the time, so mobility is much more important. Certain warrior skill (namely Whirlwind and Rush), for example, might not need a nerf in PvP, but should in WvW.

- Perma, or long term, stealth is balanced in sPvP due to not being able to cap a point. In WvW this is usually not an issue since players are seldom alone and distances are longer so you can win a fight and cap the point while the other guy won’t make it back in time. This means that mesmer PU, for example is a lot stronger in WvW than PvP and – imo – needs a nerf in WvW at least.

- AI clutter is more of an issue in PvP since there is (due to numbers) less AoE than WvW, so it needs to be toned down in PvP but can be left alone in WvW.

Because of this (and most likely several other reasons that don’t come to mind right now), it makes sense to split PvP and WvW balance.

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Posted by: BAEK.8561

BAEK.8561

I’m not sure about PvE, but IMO, there shouldn’t be a difference in skills/traits between WvW and sPvP. It’s simply unintuitive and confusing to users. Heck, I wouldn’t mind if skills/traits where same across all of sPvP, WvW, and PvE.

There are still differences, a few examples:
- WvW has more open spaces and you don’t need to be capping points all the time, so mobility is much more important. Certain warrior skill (namely Whirlwind and Rush), for example, might not need a nerf in PvP, but should in WvW.

- Perma, or long term, stealth is balanced in sPvP due to not being able to cap a point. In WvW this is usually not an issue since players are seldom alone and distances are longer so you can win a fight and cap the point while the other guy won’t make it back in time. This means that mesmer PU, for example is a lot stronger in WvW than PvP and – imo – needs a nerf in WvW at least.

- AI clutter is more of an issue in PvP since there is (due to numbers) less AoE than WvW, so it needs to be toned down in PvP but can be left alone in WvW.

Because of this (and most likely several other reasons that don’t come to mind right now), it makes sense to split PvP and WvW balance.

I understand the benefits of WvW and sPvP being split. But in my opinion, it would still be better if they were same. As someone who enjoys both WvW and sPvP, having to keep track of 2 different balances going on can be too much, especially for newbies and casuals. It’s mind-boggling when I discover that the same skill does half the damage in one game mode than the other.

{Sanctum of Rall} Since Day -3
Weekend Guardian/Elementalist
No Guild Affiliation

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

I’m not sure about PvE, but IMO, there shouldn’t be a difference in skills/traits between WvW and sPvP. It’s simply unintuitive and confusing to users. Heck, I wouldn’t mind if skills/traits where same across all of sPvP, WvW, and PvE.

There are still differences, a few examples:
- WvW has more open spaces and you don’t need to be capping points all the time, so mobility is much more important. Certain warrior skill (namely Whirlwind and Rush), for example, might not need a nerf in PvP, but should in WvW.

- Perma, or long term, stealth is balanced in sPvP due to not being able to cap a point. In WvW this is usually not an issue since players are seldom alone and distances are longer so you can win a fight and cap the point while the other guy won’t make it back in time. This means that mesmer PU, for example is a lot stronger in WvW than PvP and – imo – needs a nerf in WvW at least.

- AI clutter is more of an issue in PvP since there is (due to numbers) less AoE than WvW, so it needs to be toned down in PvP but can be left alone in WvW.

Because of this (and most likely several other reasons that don’t come to mind right now), it makes sense to split PvP and WvW balance.

I understand the benefits of WvW and sPvP being split. But in my opinion, it would still be better if they were same. As someone who enjoys both WvW and sPvP, having to keep track of 2 different balances going on can be too much, especially for newbies and casuals. It’s mind-boggling when I discover that the same skill does half the damage in one game mode than the other.

Personally, I think it would be beneficial to have an option to have a different build, gear set, etc automatically when you enter wvw. The option would prevent me from wearing the same stuff as wvw accidentally when entering a dungeon shortly afterward.

[ARES]
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Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Iavra.8510

Iavra.8510

I agree that it can be irritating to have the same skill being different in all 3 game modes. As long as possible, i would keep balance changes the same in PvP and WvW, maybe even PvE where possible. But some skills just need to be nerfed or buffed in one of the PvP modes but would be totally op or useless in the other.

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

Personally, I think it would be beneficial to have an option to have a different build, gear set, etc automatically when you enter wvw. The option would prevent me from wearing the same stuff as wvw accidentally when entering a dungeon shortly afterward.

On that note I’d like hot key equips like in GW1, where you press a button and can completely change your armor and weapons set with something that you have preconfigured. This of course could only be used outside of combat.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Personally, I think it would be beneficial to have an option to have a different build, gear set, etc automatically when you enter wvw. The option would prevent me from wearing the same stuff as wvw accidentally when entering a dungeon shortly afterward.

On that note I’d like hot key equips like in GW1, where you press a button and can completely change your armor and weapons set with something that you have preconfigured. This of course could only be used outside of combat.

That would be sweet.

[ARES]
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Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Iavra.8510

Iavra.8510

Personally, I think it would be beneficial to have an option to have a different build, gear set, etc automatically when you enter wvw. The option would prevent me from wearing the same stuff as wvw accidentally when entering a dungeon shortly afterward.

On that note I’d like hot key equips like in GW1, where you press a button and can completely change your armor and weapons set with something that you have preconfigured. This of course could only be used outside of combat.

I remember a dev post somewhere stating that they would actually like to implement something like this, but i don’t remember where it was.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Personally, I think it would be beneficial to have an option to have a different build, gear set, etc automatically when you enter wvw. The option would prevent me from wearing the same stuff as wvw accidentally when entering a dungeon shortly afterward.

On that note I’d like hot key equips like in GW1, where you press a button and can completely change your armor and weapons set with something that you have preconfigured. This of course could only be used outside of combat.

I remember a dev post somewhere stating that they would actually like to implement something like this, but i don’t remember where it was.

That’s very encouraging, but only if it had a trait change with it, for me anyway.

[ARES]
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Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

In sPvP you fight against other players so a more or less even field is required.
WvW is a unbalanced mess, stated by the devs too. It depends on too many things and mobility>>>many other things in this game mode.
PvE however can be (!) balanced with the encounters, but when condition removal is rarely needed as control and debuffing and support means might / fury stacking with reflects and all of this provided by the same 2-3 class …

The combat itself, thus classes are too homogenized. Same pool of conditions and boons, everybody can heal themselves and dodge. Get the few class that provide the necessary buffs (see above) and enjoy the broken class balance.
Classes needs unique abilities and content should be more varied, so not the corner stacking and heavy dps will be the meta everywhere with the same few professions, while others are interesting by their design, but it actually fails, because the game works in reality differently.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Classes needs unique abilities and content should be more varied, so not the corner stacking and heavy dps will be the meta everywhere with the same few professions, while others are interesting by their design, but it actually fails, because the game works in reality differently.

I guess the issue is that only a few classes are finding it difficult to be in the meta, mainly necros, but also rangers and I guess engis. So these classes can be extremely good in pvp but need a better role in pve. That’s why I think the balance should be done separately without homogenizing the classes.

[ARES]
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Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

Personally, I think it would be beneficial to have an option to have a different build, gear set, etc automatically when you enter wvw. The option would prevent me from wearing the same stuff as wvw accidentally when entering a dungeon shortly afterward.

On that note I’d like hot key equips like in GW1, where you press a button and can completely change your armor and weapons set with something that you have preconfigured. This of course could only be used outside of combat.

I remember a dev post somewhere stating that they would actually like to implement something like this, but i don’t remember where it was.

That’s very encouraging, but only if it had a trait change with it, for me anyway.

it would be nice if when you went into WvW it would keep what ever traits you had on when you was in there last like it does in spvp.

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Posted by: Sube Dai.8496

Sube Dai.8496

I wouldn’t mind if the PvP skills/traits/gear was applied to PvE. It is such a more elegant and manageable system. PvE runes, food, gear is the source of all balance issues.

John Snowman [GLTY]
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Posted by: Iavra.8510

Iavra.8510

I see some problems with this:
- PvE players would have nothing (or at least much less) to do with their gold.
- Especially WvW players appreciate the increased build diversity WvW offers over PvE. Most of them still hate the Ascended grind, though…

What i would like is to have PvP skins available in all game modes for infinite uses. It’s kind of a hassle to have a single-use event skin and having to decide how to use it. As of now, i’m a pure WvW player so i use those skins for PvE/WvW, but if i should decide to play PvP tomorrow, all those skins were basically “lost” for me.

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

They should have balanced the game from pvp from the start. Then pve encounters wouldn’t be so horribly brain-dead and mind-numbingly boring.

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Posted by: Jrunyon.3012

Jrunyon.3012

I wouldn’t mind if the PvP skills/traits/gear was applied to PvE. It is such a more elegant and manageable system. PvE runes, food, gear is the source of all balance issues.

I and many others would quit this game instantly. The sPvP gear system is garbage and it is the reason why I don’t step foot in there unless it’s to check out armor

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Posted by: xXxOrcaxXx.9328

xXxOrcaxXx.9328

The thread could get merged with this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Please-stop-nerfing-PvE-for-the-sake-of-PvP/

And yeah, PvE and PvP should get seperated.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

For the record, I posted this thread first so why merge mine into that. And yes, I’ll be that petty.

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Posted by: Black Box.9312

Black Box.9312

I wouldn’t mind if the PvP skills/traits/gear was applied to PvE. It is such a more elegant and manageable system. PvE runes, food, gear is the source of all balance issues.

That is a terrible idea. The current sPvP system is far too limiting in build variety and playstyle for that to work.

Also that’s implying that sPvP in this game is balanced to begin with, which I’d definitely argue is not the case.

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Posted by: Sube Dai.8496

Sube Dai.8496

I wouldn’t mind if the PvP skills/traits/gear was applied to PvE. It is such a more elegant and manageable system. PvE runes, food, gear is the source of all balance issues.

That is a terrible idea. The current sPvP system is far too limiting in build variety and playstyle for that to work.

Also that’s implying that sPvP in this game is balanced to begin with, which I’d definitely argue is not the case.

There are more viable builds in PvP than there is in wvw…and that is because there are less stat points to throw around. Small changes in stats actually matter in PvP.

John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]

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Posted by: Black Box.9312

Black Box.9312

I wouldn’t mind if the PvP skills/traits/gear was applied to PvE. It is such a more elegant and manageable system. PvE runes, food, gear is the source of all balance issues.

That is a terrible idea. The current sPvP system is far too limiting in build variety and playstyle for that to work.

Also that’s implying that sPvP in this game is balanced to begin with, which I’d definitely argue is not the case.

There are more viable builds in PvP than there is in wvw…and that is because there are less stat points to throw around. Small changes in stats actually matter in PvP.

sPvP pigeonholes your stat selection to one of about 10 options. For WvW you have an abundance of options for numerous different pieces of equipment, which provides an exponentially larger number of combinations. Are they all effective? No, but there’s a lot more variety in effective builds due to the freedom to actually choose what you want.

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Posted by: Sube Dai.8496

Sube Dai.8496

I wouldn’t mind if the PvP skills/traits/gear was applied to PvE. It is such a more elegant and manageable system. PvE runes, food, gear is the source of all balance issues.

That is a terrible idea. The current sPvP system is far too limiting in build variety and playstyle for that to work.

Also that’s implying that sPvP in this game is balanced to begin with, which I’d definitely argue is not the case.

There are more viable builds in PvP than there is in wvw…and that is because there are less stat points to throw around. Small changes in stats actually matter in PvP.

sPvP pigeonholes your stat selection to one of about 10 options. For WvW you have an abundance of options for numerous different pieces of equipment, which provides an exponentially larger number of combinations. Are they all effective? No, but there’s a lot more variety in effective builds due to the freedom to actually choose what you want.

There is obviously more variety, but less of them are viable.

John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]

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Posted by: Jrunyon.3012

Jrunyon.3012

There is obviously more variety, but less of them are viable.

You are so wrong it’s not even funny. I seriously hope you’re trolling.

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[OHai] – Northern Shiverpeaks

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Posted by: observer z.6725

observer z.6725

PvE should use PvE skill balance.

PvP and WvW should use PvP skill balance.

Foods, oils, consumables, potions, etc., should be disabled in all PvP zones, including WvW.

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Posted by: Sirendor.1394

Sirendor.1394

- Perma, or long term, stealth is balanced in sPvP due to not being able to cap a point.

It makes thieves useless in SPvP. Only thing they can do is run around and speedcap, which doesn’t happen a lot because bunkers are all over the place. :/

Gandara – Vabbi – Ring of Fire – Fissure of Woe – Vabbi
SPvP as Standalone All is Vain