Guild Wars 2

I’m going to briefly recap all of the scheduled April 15th changes to the Engineer profession, and provide suggestions, where applicable, to maximize the flavor, uniqueness, and how memorable some previously bland mechanics can be.

In my opinion, a lot of Professions deserved better balanced, higher synergy, or playstyle defining traits than what has been put on the table, so far. I am most experienced at the Engineer profession, so what I did was evaluate the new Engineer Grandmasters based on: the Balance, the Synergy, and the Playstyle definition. Where I saw problems, I created suggestions.

Here goes:

Explosives:

• New Grandmaster: Synaptic Overload – Gain 3 seconds of Quickness when hitting a foe with a knockback skill. (20 Second cool down.)

^I have an extreme dislike for this trait, so far. It seems to be extremely disjointed and short on synergy with the rest of the Explosives trait line. Engineers have a distinct lack of synergy with quickness due to extremely short casts all around, and are not auto-attack intensive. This trait really lacks a soul.

• New Proposed Grandmaster: Demolition Specialist – Damage values of Fire Bomb and Concussion Bomb are improved. Successfully performing a blast finisher in a combo field generates a second, identical effect. (5 Second cool down.)

^Concussion Bomb would be increased to Pry Bar Strength and Fire Bomb would be increased to Acid Bomb Strength. A great amount of blast finishers and fields are what makes Engineers so unique and fun. This grandmaster gives further viability to Engineers with power-explosive utilities as their build’s core in PvE/WvW/PvP. An un-written goal is to create builds that can fight against a Grenade and condi dominated landscape, as well. This trait directly competes with Grenadier, and viable Grenade builds.

Firearms:

• New Grandmaster: Bunker Down – When you critically hit, you create a mine that lasts 10 seconds at your location. (2 second cooldown)

^I’ve been pretty puzzled as to why this trait is in the Firearms tree. I can see this trait perhaps being used in certain 30/30/x/x/x builds. Unfortunately, this trait is in competition with Modified Amunition, and both of those traits aim to do the exact same thing – more gratuitous damage. The question is whether the damage increase is better from modified ammunition, or the mines will be useful enough to overcome that. There simply aren’t any unique or interesting combinations that this can be used with. Boring.

• New Proposed Grandmaster: Sweltering Heat – Flame Jet and Flame Blast have increased area of effect, and deals further increased damage to burning foes. Flame Jet: Range increased from 425 to 700. Flame Blast: Range increased from 600 to 900, Radius increased from 240 to 360. Additional damage increase to burning foes: 20%.

^Flamethrower is, hands down, by far the most memorable, unique, and disappointing kits. The purpose of this trait is to give Engineers with Flamethrower in their build’s core a much needed boost in teamfight practicality, pressure, and heroic effect. Being able to position properly is a must, and Grenades have a huge monopoly on dealing adequate damage without being right on top of the target.

Extra Firearms proposed change:

• Rework Juggernaut: (Old) You gain toughness while wielding a flamethrower. In addition, gain might at regular intervals while using this weapon kit.

• New Proposed Juggernaut: Incoming Retaliation damage while equipped with a Weapon Kit is suppressed. In addition, gain might and fury when swapping to a Weapon Kit (EG, FT, TK). Might: 3 Stacks for 15 seconds. Fury: 5 seconds. Cooldown: 10 seconds. Incoming retaliation damage reduction: 50%

^ This solves the problem with Flamethrower’s cruel and unusual punishment by attacking foes that stack retaliation. The Flame Jet would still hit up to 3 enemies for 10 hits each, so retaliation would still be a huge problem, but it would be less like instantly dying, and more like how other profession’s multi-hit attacks are punished. It also adds offensive boons to those with weapon kits (Toolkit, Elixir Gun, Flamethrower)

Inventions:

• New Grandmaster: Fortified Turrets – Creates a reflective shield for 4 seconds on newly spawned turrets. Shield ends if turret is picked up or destroyed.

^I don’t have a problem with this trait. I think that it will be utilized extensively in PvE and perhaps even WvW, so while I feel that is not attractive in PvP yet, I am okay with this. These new grandmaster trait reveals has shown to have a trend, and that is a more supportive, group oriented direction for Turrets. Personally, I could not be happier – Turrets cannot succeed as damage dealing A.I, nor should it. I see a huge opportunity to create a functional support build out of Turrets, amongst the now cheap and useless Turret traits. Here are my proposals:

• Rework Metal Plating: (Old) Reduces damage dealt to Turrets by 30%.

• New Proposed Metal Plating: Placed turrets grants nearby allies (and Turrets) a stacking 5% damage reduction. Radius: 360. Maximum damage reduction: 25%

^Metal Plating was such a forgettable and boring trait with no identity – what did the Engineer, his allies, or his foes care about the Turrets having one more blow left before dying? Now, Engineers could actually fortify allies with a unique damage reduction while the Turrets are functional.

• Rework Autotool Installation: (Old) Turrets are self repairing. (5% every 3s)

• New Proposed Autotool Installation: Turrets now always have the recharge rate of Turrets that are picked up. When a Turret is destroyed, heal nearby allies only (not the Engineer, benevolence type healing). Healing: 1350, Radius: 240.

^ Engineers could directly heal allies by detonating nearby Turrets, or Foes that AoE down the Turrets would inadvertently proc AoE heals on the area they are zoning.

Alchemy:

• New Grandmaster: Experimental Turrets – Turrets Apply Boons to allies every 10 seconds based on the turret: Thumper Turret, 3s Protection, Net Turret, 10s Swiftness, Rifle Turret, 5s Fury, Healing Turret, 3s Vigor, Rocket Turret, 3s Retaliation, Flame Turret, 3 Might stacks for 10s.

^This trait is alright, simply for the fact that a Rifle Turret could be responsible for a high amount of group fury, admittedly, much more useful when using multiple Turrets, and keeping those Turrets alive, but since Alchemy is doing quite fine, moving along.

Tools:

• New Grandmaster: Gadgeteer – Gadgets apply a boon on use, unique to each Gadget. A.E.D, 3.5s Retaliation, Personal Battering Ram, 5s Fury, Rocket Boots, 4s Vigor, Slick Shoes, 8s Regeneration, Throw Mine, 6s Aegis, Utility Goggles, 8s 5 Stacks of Might.

^Super disappointed with this Grandmaster. Having Gadgets at the core of an Engineer build is still a horrible decision, even when taken with the Adept, Speedy Gadgets. There’s no playstyle adjustment as a result of this trait, I feel that the Gadget traitline needs a hero.

• New Proposed Grandmaster: Gadgeteer – Gadgets remove bleed, burning and poison upon the effect activation. (Cooldown to be decided, probably 15 second recharge.)

^This will give Gadget builds a strong defensive core. To run a Gadget heal (A.E.D), the Engineer has to accept absolute zero condition removal. (No Elixirs, or Healing Turret) This simply is too much to ask, so A.E.D can never get play in tPvP or small WvW encounters. Realistically, a build that takes multiple Gadgets is severely limited in defensive and offensive power, and is right off the bat forced into 30pts into the Tools traitline.

Whelp, that’s it from me, folks. Let me know what you guys think of our revealed new Grandmaster traits, and my proposed ones!

-FiveGauge

Synaptic Overload:

I like it maybe. You would take it with bombs and other power based kits/weapons.
Doubling the rate of fire on bombs just means when the delayed BOOM goes off you are in trouble. Doubling AA of rifle would matter too. I see it as a delayed wallop. And there are a LOT of knockbacks with the power kits. Would really help tranquilizer gun with other traits get higher bleed stacks too.

Bunker Down:

Again, it is a great GM trait potentially. Again, for power builds that have fewer conditions. We also don’t know if the bomb will create an effect or just be damage. I see this as a great way to escape by putting your target back into combat and slowing down movement. It also could be used to create a basic mine field or 1 time burst of damage as you are throwing grenades or fighting from a backline. You will have 3-4 of them up I would imagine in many scenarios.

Fortified Turrets:
If it effects everyone in the “hit box” of the turret and that new hit box is still big enough to “cover one or two” players then this is amazing. If not, it still is ok but so much of it depends on how big of a hit box is left. I see this way more as a tool that would be used if it protected players standing by turrets. It also will be quickly slotted when sieging. With rapid ability to change specs before a big WvW siege, this becomes a LOT more useful. Turrets by rams. Turrets on walls. Yep, it could be situationally very nice. 100% depends on the “hit box”.

Experimental Turrets: Again, it is a quick change that is situational from say roaming to more static fights. Depends on the range and how many allies get affected.
Importantly, will it work on supply crate turrets? There are some good ones for a roaming fight (rifle and fury) and great ones for a static fight (even more retaliation and protection). And it continues to pulse out the effect so placement of turrets could really matter in wvw siege.

Gadgeteer: Just not tempted to go 30 pts into tools right now. If I were, this isn’t a bad trait but it should “pulse” the benefit much like Experimental turrets does, just only to the engineer.

Chaith.8256:

Explosives:

• New Grandmaster: Synaptic Overload – Gain 3 seconds of Quickness when hitting a foe with a knockback skill. (20 Second cool down.)

• New Proposed Grandmaster: Demolition Specialist – Damage values of Fire Bomb and Concussion Bomb are improved. Successfully performing a blast finisher in a combo field generates a second, identical effect. (5 Second cool down.)

Honestly, this trait depends a lot on what else we get skill wise in the patch. It could pair well with rifle assuming it works on launches as well for some high burst from jump-shot and blunderbuss, but I could be wrong. I do like your idea for the x2 blast finisher combos, however I think that might have to be toned down/restricted since blast finishers are not hard to come by for us. I mean pair this with healing turret and now you have a 7k ish heal with no healing power. An alternative to it would be to double the duration from these finishers instead or provide an extra effect like the eles grandmaster fire trait. Water fields apply regeneration, light fields remove a condition, smoke fields provide swiftness, etc.

Chaith.8256:

Firearms:

• New Grandmaster: Bunker Down – When you critically hit, you create a mine that lasts 10 seconds at your location. (2 second cooldown)

• New Proposed Grandmaster: Sweltering Heat – Flame Jet and Flame Blast have increased area of effect, and deals further increased damage to burning foes. Flame Jet: Range increased from 425 to 700. Flame Blast: Range increased from 600 to 900, Radius increased from 240 to 360. Additional damage increase to burning foes: 20%.

Extra Firearms proposed change:

• Rework Juggernaut: (Old) You gain toughness while wielding a flamethrower. In addition, gain might at regular intervals while using this weapon kit.

• New Proposed Juggernaut: Incoming Retaliation damage while equipped with a Weapon Kit is suppressed. In addition, gain might and fury when swapping to a Weapon Kit (EG, FT, TK). Might: 3 Stacks for 15 seconds. Fury: 5 seconds. Cooldown: 10 seconds. Incoming retaliation damage reduction: 50%

This trait feels like it will do more damage that modified ammunition simply because you won’t have to worry about condition cleanse ruining you damage constantly. May be fun in Spvp since you can have extra node control but I wouldn’t write home about it being amazing.

Can’t argue about a flamethrower buff, but I think the kit needs a rework on some of its damage values since having rifle out DPSs flamethrower heavily. Same goes for toolkit but that’s another story.

Chaith.8256:

Inventions:

• New Grandmaster: Fortified Turrets – Creates a reflective shield for 4 seconds on newly spawned turrets. Shield ends if turret is picked up or destroyed.

I can’t say anything about this that wouldn’t be taken and derail this thread so I won’t.

Chaith.8256:

Alchemy:

• New Grandmaster: Experimental Turrets – Turrets Apply Boons to allies every 10 seconds based on the turret: Thumper Turret, 3s Protection, Net Turret, 10s Swiftness, Rifle Turret, 5s Fury, Healing Turret, 3s Vigor, Rocket Turret, 3s Retaliation, Flame Turret, 3 Might stacks for 10s.

This is a good trait, honestly the only good one we got. Shame it is in the wrong tree. In my opinion this should replace fortified since this one can put up a fight with RBT for a build. The boons need to be reworked though because the durations on some of those do not justify taking the turret/leaving it out on the field. For example healing turret. No engineer is going to leave his healing turret up on the field for 3 seconds of vigor it will still be drop and pick-up(destroy). I would say having like double that vigor would be good in itself, but I think that the problem is more in with the turret not rewarding the engineer enough to keep it up on the field. That’s another story though. Good idea needs tweaking, but again depends on what turrets get for changes.

Chaith.8256:

Tools:

• New Grandmaster: Gadgeteer – Gadgets apply a boon on use, unique to each Gadget. A.E.D, 3.5s Retaliation, Personal Battering Ram, 5s Fury, Rocket Boots, 4s Vigor, Slick Shoes, 8s Regeneration, Throw Mine, 6s Aegis, Utility Goggles, 8s 5 Stacks of Might.

• New Proposed Grandmaster: Gadgeteer – Gadgets remove bleed, burning and poison upon the effect activation.

Gadgets are gadgets and there is nothing more to say until it reaches the ears of the determined devs.

Chaith..

I am a fan. GJ

With traits such as Synaptic Overload, I would much prefer a negative effect of my opponent rather then a very short boon on myself.

I prefer the Bunker down they are offering over your idea here Chaith. There are already too many traits for the FT.

Chaith.8256:

Having Gadgets at the core of an Engineer build is still a horrible decision, even when taken with the Adept, Speedy Gadgets. There’s no playstyle adjustment as a result of this trait, I feel that the Gadget traitline needs a hero.

I completely agree here. I really want to run a gadget build. But compared to other traits and skills, everything falls short with them.

Personally, I feel if they take vulnerability off of analyze and put it on the utility goggles proper, and changes analyze to gas mask – remove 3 conditions ………giving gadgets the new AED heal, condition removal and stun breakers in this utility subset, then the trait they are suggesting might be a nice investment with them.

Imho, putting others single-kit focused grandmaster traits wouldn’t solve much. Those weapon would suffer from the same issue of the grenade kit – basically, being balanced upon their traited versions, thus making the base ones very underwhelming.

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, putting others single-kit focused grandmaster traits wouldn’t solve much. Those weapon would suffer from the same issue of the grenade kit – basically, being balanced upon their traited versions, thus making the base ones very underwhelming.

In a way… but I did plan for that. (Disclaimer, I do not think my suggestions are flawless, lol)

For example, Taking the suggested Explosives Grandmaster to upgrade Power Bombs and increase combo field blasting, this trait will be completely glossed over by the meta Bombs/Nades condi build. Condition Bombs are quite prevalent, and as long as this trait isn’t the best-in-slot for any bomb user, than it won’t be another Grenadier. It’s more a focus on a bombs only, power build using bombs as the main source of damage.

Also, my suggested Firearms Grandmaster to upgrade Power Flamethrower will never be taken by any who uses Flamethrower for a utility Kit or condition weapon. It’s just one aspect of the Flamethrower that it’s designed to buff – a focus on the #1 and #2 skills as sustained damage. That’s why it won’t be another Grenadier, because not It’s not best-in-slot for every Flamethrower user.

My suggested Tools Grandmaster to grant Gadgeteers an actual method of condition removal would definitely be a best-in-slot for all gadget users.. because Gadgets have nothing. Lol. So yes.. your point rings true on that front, I am still thinking on it.

Chaith.8256:

For example, Taking the suggested Explosives Grandmaster to upgrade Power Bombs and increase combo field blasting, this trait will be completely glossed over by the meta Bombs/Nades condi build. Condition Bombs are quite prevalent, and as long as this trait isn’t the best-in-slot for any bomb user, than it won’t be another Grenadier. It’s more a focus on a bombs only, power build using bombs as the main source of damage.

I could agree with this, seeing as its effects are relatively limited and it would overlap with grenadier. The problem, imho, is with the flamethrower…

Also, my suggested Firearms Grandmaster to upgrade Power Flamethrower will never be taken by any who uses Flamethrower for a utility Kit or condition weapon. It’s just one aspect of the Flamethrower that it’s designed to buff – a focus on the #1 and #2 skills as sustained damage. That’s why it won’t be another Grenadier, because not It’s not best-in-slot for every Flamethrower user.

…as the traitline would end up having up three flamethrower traits – an adept, a master and a grandmaster. Having such buffs via traits, all together, would likely work against the balancing of the base one as they would fear making the traited one too strong.

Even grenades didn’t start up weak, they got nerfed over time because of the traited version (even if the logical choice would have been to review the trait, rather than nerf the base one to oblivion). More than being a “best in slot”, we should talk about it being a “forced choice” after all the nerfs.

Also, i don’t think that the abysmal attack of the weapon or the issues with retaliation should be fixed via traits. Especially since it is a problem shared by many multi-hit skills – whose major advantage was food on-crit processing, and was greatly nerfed via the addition of internal cooldowns on foods.
If anything, it is retaliation that should be reworked. But we’re OT with that.

Regarding gadgets…well, that’s just because we are extremely lacking with gadgets. Any trait would be considering best-in-slot for a build that focused on them, seeing as we haven’t got many choices in that regard.

Manuhell.2759:

…as the traitline would end up having up three flamethrower traits – an adept, a master and a grandmaster. Having such buffs via traits, all together, would likely work against the balancing of the base one as they would fear making the traited one too strong.

Even grenades didn’t start up weak, they got nerfed over time because of the traited version (even if the logical choice would have been to review the trait, rather than nerf the base one to oblivion). More than being a “best in slot”, we should talk about it being a “forced choice” after all the nerfs.

Also, i don’t think that the abysmal attack of the weapon or the issues with retaliation should be fixed via traits. Especially since it is a problem shared by many multi-hit skills – whose major advantage was food on-crit processing, and was greatly nerfed via the addition of internal cooldowns on foods.
If anything, it is retaliation that should be reworked. But we’re OT with that.

Regarding gadgets…well, that’s just because we are extremely lacking with gadgets. Any trait would be considering best-in-slot for a build that focused on them, seeing as we haven’t got many choices in that regard.

Grenade traits are definitely all must haves when you run the Grenade Kit. It kind of sucks.. because everything’s balanced around them being taken, yes. You are pressured to take: 1) Shrapnel, 2) Short Fuse, 3) Explosive Powder, and 4) Grenadier. Then throw in Incendiary Powder being a must-have and Forceful Explosives if you run bombs. There is definitely an explosive trait bloat. But at least it’s usable ..

Also, Flamethrower is a pretty huge outlier when it comes to damage out vs. retaliation in. It’s such an outlier, I don’t feel that specifically making it affected less by retaliation as a trait, is such a bad idea. Seriously.. it procs so much more retal than just about anything, for the damage it does.

your version of autotool installation would be.. very compelling, to put it lightly. 25% cd reduction on blasting healing turret and giving us another 1350 heal with it? idk man, i think you need to make some kind of exclusion for it or something.

flamethrower grandmaster amuses me. bombs grandmaster amuses me. and i like the metal plating suggestion too, though the point of that trait seems to me to be more about keeping any of your turrets alive, rather than keeping a turret nest alive. so like what if it came with a base damage reduction for the turrets, like now, say 10-15%, and each one throws out a stackable 5% reduction aura? so nests are slightly better off, but you can still have the majority of the traits utility with just 1-2 turrets rather than directly nerfing the times when some of your turrets are on cd.

insanemaniac.2456:

your version of autotool installation would be.. very compelling, to put it lightly. 25% cd reduction on blasting healing turret and giving us another 1350 heal with it? idk man, i think you need to make some kind of exclusion for it or something.

flamethrower grandmaster amuses me. bombs grandmaster amuses me. and i like the metal plating suggestion too, though the point of that trait seems to me to be more about keeping any of your turrets alive, rather than keeping a turret nest alive. so like what if it came with a base damage reduction for the turrets, like now, say 10-15%, and each one throws out a stackable 5% reduction aura? so nests are slightly better off, but you can still have the majority of the traits utility with just 1-2 turrets rather than directly nerfing the times when some of your turrets are on cd.

All great points.. I think that using Auto-tool Installation in a DPS build, just for healing Turret would be viable. What if the healing procs on auto-tool installation were the kind of ‘benevolence’ kind of healing where it wouldn’t affect the Engineer, but his allies?

Some cool proposed changes, but about the Flamethrower: with your suggested change, does this not cancel out a FT HGH build? The reason that works so well, in my experience, is because of the 10 stacks of might due to Juggernaut.

Chaith.8256:

insanemaniac.2456:

your version of autotool installation would be.. very compelling, to put it lightly. 25% cd reduction on blasting healing turret and giving us another 1350 heal with it? idk man, i think you need to make some kind of exclusion for it or something.

flamethrower grandmaster amuses me. bombs grandmaster amuses me. and i like the metal plating suggestion too, though the point of that trait seems to me to be more about keeping any of your turrets alive, rather than keeping a turret nest alive. so like what if it came with a base damage reduction for the turrets, like now, say 10-15%, and each one throws out a stackable 5% reduction aura? so nests are slightly better off, but you can still have the majority of the traits utility with just 1-2 turrets rather than directly nerfing the times when some of your turrets are on cd.

All great points.. I think that using Auto-tool Installation in a DPS build, just for healing Turret would be viable. What if the healing procs on auto-tool installation were the kind of ‘benevolence’ kind of healing where it wouldn’t affect the Engineer, but his allies?

ahhh, now that there is a good idea

Direksone.3867:

Some cool proposed changes, but about the Flamethrower: with your suggested change, does this not cancel out a FT HGH build? The reason that works so well, in my experience, is because of the 10 stacks of might due to Juggernaut.

How so? Juggernaut grants one might every 3s.. that lasts for 15s. My proposed Juggernaut grants 3 might every 10s that lasts for 15s. Lol.

Chaith I love the ideas since the current GM traits are near useless.

As for the bombs getting extra abilities… As I run EG for over a year I can say giving fire bomb acid bomb would be far to strong. Maybe half the damage. (1k power procs + 600 ticks on burn is way to much).

JinDaVikk.7291:

Chaith I love the ideas since the current GM traits are near useless.

As for the bombs getting extra abilities… As I run EG for over a year I can say giving fire bomb acid bomb would be far to strong. Maybe half the damage. (1k power procs + 600 ticks on burn is way to much).

Heh, yeah dude, Fire Bomb would be very strong on a power/hybrid build. But would you give up Grenadier, and be forced out of using grenades for it? I think it’s a pretty good incentive to go power bombs. Power bombs is just not possible outside of PvE.

But for real, it probably would be too strong on a 10s CD. Maybe shave 25% off of the ‘new’ Fire Bomb’s damage, but you get the concept.

Just to reiterate, these grandmasters goal of implementation is to provide a new kind of playstyle that was previously unavailable, as opposed to competing with Grandmasters in popular builds.

kitten that needs a hero Grandmaster, to promote this objective (that is not AIDS like dps A.I turret builds)

• Power Bomb builds outside of PvE.
• Power Flamethrower builds.
• Power Firearms builds (Static Discharge for example)
• Support Builds (Turret Based, so the concept isn’t literally wasted.)
• Every conceivable role for core Gadget builds.

So, like, any tweaks or separate suggestions that would go towards achieving these goals, I give the thumbs up.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Chaith I love the ideas since the current GM traits are near useless.

How much time did you spend using them before you came to such an enlightened conclusion. Heck, we have skills now that are staples of builds that many called useless on release, because they hadn’t learned how to use them yet.

Not sure if your sarcastic or not but maybe I wasn’t clear enough, the current NEW GM traits they propossed will be kitten. Not the ones we have.

coglin.1867:

JinDaVikk.7291:

Chaith I love the ideas since the current GM traits are near useless.

How much time did you spend using them before you came to such an enlightened conclusion. Heck, we have skills now that are staples of builds that many called useless on release, because they hadn’t learned how to use them yet.

Indeed, it’s generally not the best decision to assume as though you know the exact value of a trait that could be ambiguous. But 3s of Haste, on Synaptic Overload, 5s of Fury from Experimental Turrets when dropping Rifle Turret, or 3s of Retaliation when casting A.E.D, these aren’t ambiguous at all, and are really easy to size up.

Things like the Elementalist’s ‘Lightning Rod’ which deals unknown damage upon interrupt.. what if it was like 2000 base damage? That’s something you shouldn’t underestimate yet.

Even in the case of perfectly known effects, as coglin said you often just don’t know how it’ll play out in actual use yet.
The reason is that many combinations depend on what combinations the other players use.

Phaeton.9582:

Chaith..

I am a fan. GJ

same here. Very good ideas

edit : so bad that they do not take the feedback into account

Lupanic.6502:

Phaeton.9582:

Chaith..

I am a fan. GJ

same here. Very good ideas

edit : so bad that they do not take the feedback into account

Thanks!

I imagine that the content that’s due on April 15th, ie, the new grandmasters Grandmasters are probably locked, as they’re in the final stage of polish.

Anet has gotten tons of Feedback based around improving turret utility and supporting Gadgets, so, seeing two Turret and a Gadget grandmaster surely makes it seem like feedback is taken into account. Unfortunately, there are still no real builds forming quite yet.

It would be interesting if turrets followed you around like ranger spirits although I highly doubt this will ever happen.

Chaith.8256:

Unfortunately, there are still no real builds forming quite yet.

so much of the process is trial and error that we cant do anything until the patch is live.

id try something like 20/30/0/0/20 for a glass sd build for example, but prolly eventually move out of explosives due to bad survivability… but how can i know how it matches up against anything?

I am all about your proposal for the Flame Thrower. I think the turret idea is nice but a little would need to be shaved off of the healing imo or the benevolent thing would work if the Engi wasn’t affected by the bonus. In fact, I like the idea of making it like Benevolent Healing.

Sometimes I wish they would leave things considered “OP” by the solo queue crowd (me) alone and bring some of the other lines up to snuff with those to give players more viable options. I just want build options. It’s a stark contrast to GW1, where I had dozens of viable options in RA for each class. Some less than others, but we had way more options for each profession in that game.

I’m actually worried about the turret traits for PvP. We really need to see less AI spam in this game, not more. I’d like to see turrets, spirits, and minions all nerfed, not buffed.

I’m also worried about turrets providing boons. Are all turrets on the same cooldown schedule, or do I get 1 boon for every turret up? If one boon per turret, that could be way over the top.

style.6173:

I’m actually worried about the turret traits for PvP. We really need to see less AI spam in this game, not more. I’d like to see turrets, spirits, and minions all nerfed, not buffed.

I’m also worried about turrets providing boons. Are all turrets on the same cooldown schedule, or do I get 1 boon for every turret up? If one boon per turret, that could be way over the top.

I’m one to agree that sustained A.I DPS in PvP is cancerous, IE, attempting to react to the passives but I feel that if that is just not possible from Turrets anymore, since all the damaging conditions from Turrets were removed. (Except Flame Turret).

When traited with the new Alchemy Grandmaster, Experimental Turrets, dropping a Turret will instantly grant the associated boon. Every 10s, each boon will fire again. So each turret grants a boon every 10s, totally independently.

Edit: I don’t think that this Trait will be gamebreaking in PvP. What build will use this to good effect? Decap Engineers would give up Automated Response, so that would be a nerf so unfathomable to how good people can survive, who can’t play Engineer well.

i don’t think anyone will take the new alchemy turret trait. imo alchemy is one of the best defensive trees in the game and experimental turrets just can’t compete.

ellesee.8297:

i don’t think anyone will take the new alchemy turret trait. imo alchemy is one of the best defensive trees in the game and experimental turrets just can’t compete.

It’s not a selfish trait though, like Alchemy is all about. It’s about the support!

If there was an actual point to bringing turrets (support role) than this would be fine.

Right now, you can’t really use Turrets in a part of any serious role. You can’t roam with them, support with them, or thankfully kill with them.

Iason Evan.3806:

I am all about your proposal for the Flame Thrower. I think the turret idea is nice but a little would need to be shaved off of the healing imo or the benevolent thing would work if the Engi wasn’t affected by the bonus. In fact, I like the idea of making it like Benevolent Healing.

Sometimes I wish they would leave things considered “OP” by the solo queue crowd (me) alone and bring some of the other lines up to snuff with those to give players more viable options. I just want build options. It’s a stark contrast to GW1, where I had dozens of viable options in RA for each class. Some less than others, but we had way more options for each profession in that game.

Heh, yeah, I hope that we see many more options available to each profession. That is totally what I am going for, with the Engineer’s trait proposals. There will always be one archetype that’s superior in certain game modes, IE: Power/Condi Nade teamfight carry in sPvP – but right now you have plenty of freedom with utilities outside of Grenade kit and Healing Turret when you’re fulfilling that teamfight grenade carry role. It’s cool, but it’s not enough.

Like I said before, I am slightly fatigued with only being the grenade teamfight carry when I sPvP. Sometimes I would like to actually do well in teamfights with a Power Flamethrower, or as Power Bombs. Or do well in teamfights by building for support.

The thing about Engineer Support is that Engineers do most of their support just through the native Supply Crate and Healing Turret. Every Engineer in sPvP has a ‘minor’ in support, but the options to ‘major’ in it are pretty much non-existent. I think Benevolence type healing is the key here.

With regards to Power Bombs, and I mentioned this on stream to you Chaith, I don’t think that using anything bar the autoattack is going to be able to compete at all with Grenadier Grenades given the total power coefficients of GK vs BK. Bomb Kit would require a practical rework for Power Bombs to be viable instead of the kiting Condi-Bombs we see right now. The only Power-centric Bomb Kit build I’ve had a lot of success with didn’t actually use BK extensively; rather as a form of zone-control, which says something about how useful Power Bombs are in a PVP aspect. Obviously, with the meta in PVE being melee auto-attack centric , Bombs have a place since the Grenade Kit nerfs, but using the rest of the kit for direct damage when all the numbers are against it is suboptimal in a PVP context, especially with smarter opponents.

TL;DR: Fix Bomb Kit to be more amenable to use in a direct damage build before introducing the “hero” Grandmaster trait. Otherwise the kit could never stand on its own, and Engineer is already pigeonholed in many ways with Kit grandmasters – Grenadier in particular.

Numbers here from Sentinel Ark and Casia show the following for Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit and as far as I know the numbers haven’t been adjusted at all since:
Bomb Kit

1. Bomb: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 1.25 coefficient, 180 radius
2. Fire Bomb: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 0.2 coefficent x 4 hits (0.8 total), 2 seconds of Burning per hit, 180 radius
3. Concussion Bomb: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 0.5 coefficient, 5 stacks of Confusion for 5 seconds, 180 radius
4. Smoke Bomb: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 0 coefficient, 3 seconds of Blind at 0, 2, 4 seconds for 3 Blinds total, 180 radius
5. Glue Bomb: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 0 coefficient, 1 seconds of Immobilise and Cripple at detonation, then 1 second of Cripple per second up to 3 seconds, 240 radius
6. Big Ol’ Bomb: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 1.7 coefficient, 3 seconds delayed detonation, 400 Launch, Blast Finisher , 300 radius
7. Total coefficient: 2.55 in kit, 4.25 with Toolbelt

Compare this with Grenade Kit, and keep in mind that this is the post-sigils working with Kits Grenade Kit as well where GK 1 took a 30% dip.
Grenade Kit

1. Grenade: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 0.33 coefficient per hit, 2 hits
2. Shrapnel Grenade: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 0.55 coefficient per hit, 1 stack of Bleed for 12 seconds, 2 hits
3. Flash Grenade: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 0.1 coefficient per hit, Blind for 5 seconds per hit, 2 hits
4. Freeze Grenade: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 0.5 coefficient per hit, Chill for 2 seconds per hit, 2 hits
5. Poison Grenade: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 0.2 coefficient per hit, Poison for 5 seconds per second over 5 second Poison Field duration, 2 hits. (will be nerfed to 3 seconds Poison per second in April)
6. Grenade Barrage: 0.5 cast, 0.3 aftercast, 0.375 coefficient per hit, 6 hits
7. Total coefficient: 3.36 in kit, 5.61 with Toolbelt. With Grenadier: 5.04 in kit, 8.04 with Toolbelt

Most efficient coefficient per second in BK is obviously the autoattack, as you can see. Fire and Concussion bomb deal desultory damage for their cast time and as such they would be unhelpful as direct damage in a PVP context, Fire and Smoke bomb only useful for their Combo Field utility in general, and Bomb would be the auto-attack in PVE with everything else being a waste of time.

Compare this with Grenade Kit where every single skill deals damage and with Grenadier, a total of 8.04 coefficient means that every single skill will still be useful for damage in a direct damage build, unlike BK where all the coefficients are loaded into Big Ol Bomb and the autoattack. In the context of direct damage, only the autoattack in Bomb Kit edges out Grenade Kit for more risk of being in melee. Even untraited Grenade Kit is better for less risk if you can get multiple hits every time.

The viability of Power Bombs has been steadily nerfed over time (and condi-bombs buffed) to the point where BK is pretty much only useful for spreading conditions then swapping out. For Power Bombs to be viable the condition aspect would require nerfing, or at least a mechanical alteration to the way BK works along with changes in traits, because the way things are right now, even taking Grenadier and Explosive Powder blows Bomb Kit out of the water.

The only time Power Bombs was ever “viable” in the loosest sense of the word was for spiking maximum Vulnerability on a target when Sitting Duck did not have an ICD so your autoattacks were hitting like a truck. With that gone, and with the Smoke Bomb nerf to make sitting toe-to-toe with other melee classes even more of a risk instead of simply dropping Fire and Concussion bomb then kiting in a condi build, Power Bombs does not:

1. Have the damage unless hitting a PVE target and autoattacking
2. Have the capability of staying in melee now that Smoke Bomb is nerfed
3. Have the scaling of Grenade Kit with Grenadier in Melee range since you can guarantee multiple hits with GK and the coefficients are higher.
4. Low coefficients all around, high radius pulsing AOE condition application (esp. Burning) mean that condi-bombs really is a lot easier and safer.
   Making Demolition Specialist a thing would require that Fire Bomb and Concussion Bomb somehow acquire 2.5+ coefficient in difference to even compete with Grenadier coefficients or something crazy like buffing Big Ol’ Bomb to detonate on command and thus removing a lot of counterplay to Big Ol’ Bomb. Then by introducing the trait, you would make running BK without the trait relatively underpowered, thus pigeonholing builds. I do think that for Power bombs to be viable the kit itself has to be viable from a Power perspective. And that means changing a lot of the aspects of BK.

The only way I could foresee Power Bombs ever being a thing would be:

• Making Bombs be placed 60 units in front of the Engineer, thus eliminating the Self-kiting problem when running with Swiftness and Elixir Infused Bombs.
• This change would also make BK a lot more readable as well. Should also colour code the bombs for unambiguity of purpose just like Grenade Kit. Visually, the huge “mushroom cloud” of Fire Bomb should be toned down for clutter reasons. The increased range means that Engineer has a lot more room to land BK1
• Reducing the radius increase Forceful Explosives gives to 30 units now that Bombs are placed in front of the Engineer and therefore the Engineer now has 240 units to work with to kite other melee users instead of 180.
• The October radius buff was when condi-bombs really became a thing because 240 radius covers most points in PVP. I do think that with placement of bombs being 60 units in front of the Engineer, the baseline BK attacks should be 150 unit radius so people still have room to maneuver. 240 is pretty thoughtless, but people may disagree.

• Increasing the baseline Power coefficient of Fire Bomb to 0.3-0.5 per pulse for total 1.2-2 coefficient over 4 pulses; and Concussion bomb to 1.0-1.2 coefficient. This brings the baseline Bomb Kit total coefficient to 3.45-4.45 – now easily competitive with untraited Grenade kit. The lower range is if Big Ol’ Bomb is also buffed to ~2 coefficient (Technically 2.2 is required to give equal total coefficient with GK + Toolbelt Barrage). The upper range is if Big Ol’ Bomb is left unchanged, so more damage is loaded into Fire and Concussion bomb.
• I do think that with a buff in Power damage output there should also be a nerf to condition damage output, although others may disagree. One thing I would like to see in particular though is for the Confusion component of Concussion bomb disappear in favour of something like Crystal Wave in GW1 that cleanses conditions of foes, but deals extra damage for each condition cleansed.
  • A lot of Engineer skills are low-output enough to be (relatively) thoughtless in use (Looking at Grenade Kit and Pistol Mainhand) and introducing combo potential useful for Power specs like Fire Grab does for Elementalists could be what Bomb Kit needs to overshadow Grenade Kit in certain situations. BK also lacks a “finisher” skill with high output and longer cooldown like GK does in the form of Grenade Barrage and Concussion Bomb could fulfil that role.

MonMalthias.4763:

With regards to Power Bombs, and I mentioned this on stream to you Chaith, I don’t think that using anything bar the autoattack is going to be able to compete at all with Grenadier Grenades given the total power coefficients of GK vs BK. Bomb Kit would require a practical rework for Power Bombs to be viable instead of the kiting Condi-Bombs we see right now.

In what respect do you say this? Because I can tell you in any situation in which you have a group or more in WvW, this statement is way off. For a front line engie, conditions in anything havoc group or larger, conditions are next to useless, because folks stack condition removals. Glue bomb doesn’t care about stability, And the AoE pulsing blindness of Smoke bomb is of great benefit. Basically, Unless your a solo roamer, in a WvW situation, power will serve you better then bombs.

MonMalthias.4763:

The viability of Power Bombs has been steadily nerfed over time (and condi-bombs buffed) to the point where BK is pretty much only useful for spreading conditions then swapping out.

In what way, with what changes did power of bombs get nerfed? How did conditions get buffed? As of now, bomb auto attack being able to consistently doing 6k-8k damage with the 25/25 might/vul must have of a PvE group. On a bit of a side note. Beware when quoting Casia. She was notorious for flawed math. I do not have anything against her, but it is true.

MonMalthias.4763:

The only way I could foresee Power Bombs ever being a thing would be:

Not sure I understand this comment. As bombs are considered by the general public as the best damage achievable in PvE. And in a large portion of WvW conditions are nullified to a great extent, making power the far better choice.

Now, I admit, I love my bomb kit and Use the heck out of it, but my experience combined with what I read over the 3-4 major forums, I am just not understanding where you came to some of these conclusions, as a fair portion of your statements go against the basic thinking of what I see out of the community.

MonMalthias.4763:

Snippity

Dropping bombs 60 distance in front of the Engineer would be massively helpful.. Elixir Infused Bombs is truly a headache for the inability to .. move and still be affected by it.

I would just like to direct the conversation back to a broader sense of what playstyle direction each trait line should move towards, as opposed to what coefficients/base damage a certain Kit would have to be for viability.

On an aside, I made all these proposals with the knowledge that many Engineer mechanics can be used in multiple playstyles. I feel the traits should be playstyle enabling as opposed to: ‘must automatically take this trait if I have the corresponding utility’.

For example, if you would like to run Condi Bomb/Nade, then you’d best stay the hell away from my ‘Demolition Specialist’ suggestion. You’d have to give up Grenadier, and the improved power damage from bomb kit wouldn’t benefit as much.

If you would like to run an HgH Condi Flamethrower, or a Condi Grenade/Flamethrower build, stay far away from my ‘Sweltering Heat’ suggestion – Using the Flamethrower’s #1 and #2 abilities are not even worth it.

When I hear the word ‘Pidgeonholed’ I don’t think: “Wow, I use Grenades and I’m forced to trait the Grenades, or I’ll be bad. How awful!” I think: “Wow, every good build uses Grenades as the main source of damage, why can’t I use other things as the main source of damage successfully?!”

Chaith.8256:

ellesee.8297:

i don’t think anyone will take the new alchemy turret trait. imo alchemy is one of the best defensive trees in the game and experimental turrets just can’t compete.

It’s not a selfish trait though, like Alchemy is all about. It’s about the support!

If there was an actual point to bringing turrets (support role) than this would be fine.

Right now, you can’t really use Turrets in a part of any serious role. You can’t roam with them, support with them, or thankfully kill with them.

yes experimental turrets is for supporting, but you need to take turrets. they’re easy to kill, stationary, all around useless and it doesn’t make sense why a turret skill is in the alchemy tree anyway. if it was something like elixirs grant boons to nearby allies in 600 range, then i’d say it would be actually useful. plus it would make sense. elixir trait in the al;chemy tree! elixir b could grant might, h regen, r vigor, s protection, u fury etc. elixir u might actually even be worthwhile. maybe not in pvp still but in pve i could see it.

ellesee.8297:

Chaith.8256:

ellesee.8297:

i don’t think anyone will take the new alchemy turret trait. imo alchemy is one of the best defensive trees in the game and experimental turrets just can’t compete.

It’s not a selfish trait though, like Alchemy is all about. It’s about the support!

If there was an actual point to bringing turrets (support role) than this would be fine.

Right now, you can’t really use Turrets in a part of any serious role. You can’t roam with them, support with them, or thankfully kill with them.

yes experimental turrets is for supporting, but you need to take turrets. they’re easy to kill, stationary, all around useless and it doesn’t make sense why a turret skill is in the alchemy tree anyway. if it was something like elixirs grant boons to nearby allies in 600 range, then i’d say it would be actually useful. plus it would make sense. elixir trait in the al;chemy tree! elixir b could grant might, h regen, r vigor, s protection, u fury etc. elixir u might actually even be worthwhile. maybe not in pvp still but in pve i could see it.

Like I’ve said before, Turrets aren’t good for anything, in any game mode right now. You can’t roam, support, or kill. There is only minor annoyance CC that’s near useless outside a 1v1. That’s why I proposed some serious support overhauls to the Turret traits in Inventions. Forget moving Turrets, forget ridiculous strong Turret auto-attacks, it’s just better if Turrets are able to provide some good things for allies.

The reason why the Experimental Turrets trait is in Alchemy makes a lot of sense actually. Put it in Inventions? Where would Fortified Turrets go, exactly? There’s 2 Turret Grandmasters coming in, and one Inventions traitline. Alchemy is a defensive/supportive traitline and Experimental Turrets fits that theme of supporting with boons, somewhat well.

I think that two Grandmaster Turret traits was pretty unnecessary, but that’s just me. Either way, they’re going to be added, and it’s not that bad.

If you could do reliable healing to allies with Turrets, then I might see a build like this somewhat working.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vcAQJAqelUUpqqVWxuKseNSE6RiBNAE9Q/WGAfKQXA-TgAg2CrIuRdj7GzNybs3A

^It would take Fortified Turrets and Experimental Turrets. Honestly though, it just seems like a terrible version of a Spirit Ranger. Turret builds will still need a lot of work before they can be a part of a build that actually accomplishes a certain role.