Guild Wars 2

im just as funny as the boys who claim berserker has no downsides and makes PvE content easy.

the only difference is, what im saying is the truth.

tank/healing gear makes PvE content faceroll and easy, because you have so much room for error.

Zerker – low risk high reward, easy and automated after enough practice (varies from player to player), quicker and more rewarding for low input from the player once he or she has learnt the encounters.
Tank/healing – boring, longer, requiring even less from the player, offering extra wheels in case the player still hasn’t learnt the fights or has latency issues or just has a bad day.

All in all, we’re arguing about pixels in an MMO game that truly is based on the social aspect rather than the actual gameplay.
If i were into competitive gaming, i’d play PvP rather than PvE. Then again, i’d probably play SC2 rather than GW2. MMOs, while number-crunching offers a healthy brain exercise, are mainly about playing with/against other people and everything that comes with it.

For the record, i have been meleeing Lupicus with full glass warrior with just endure pain and shield to survive with (FGJ + BoD along with it; still learning to go a/m rather than a/sh), not in full zerker dps-oriented perfect-reflections parties of Arah veterans (so long fights, unreliable feedbacks if any), and i do not consider it anyhow challenging or demanding.
After enough encounters (for me, about 10), it becomes automated, especially that dodges and 1~2 extra skills to fall back on is more than enough in all fights.

For what it’s worth, the main objective of doing Arah is having fun with four other people, which is also why i never pug but run with guildies (and being in a 400man guild, it does sometimes feel like pugging, meaning that i not always am good friends with all my party members but i recognise their names and am interested in getting to know them better); if generating gold is the objective of playing an MMO for you, well, that’s your right i guess… but think that the content already does take a while to complete (what IF 100b had quicker recharges? what IF some skills/traits offered higher dps and thus quicker speedruns?…) so if they happen to take 5 minutes longer for whatever reason, it should not matter that much (…but they dont, so if something is slightly nerfed and thus content takes longer, what’s the big deal?).

Nerf toughness/vit/healing power…

Fantastic post! It completely and succinctly identifies the major problems with the current tanking/healing meta, and the video attachment is great evidence to support your points.

Well done.

Finally a sub forum where I can relieve myself in public and not feel ashamed.

Can we please stay on topic without using any invectives? The topic is serious and requires some thought as well as constructive discussion.

Having said that, tanky gear paired with healing support is just ridiculous strong and needs some nerf. This is greatly seen in pvp. There should be no discussion about that, it’s obvious like the fact that sun sets in the west.

What could be done to fix this issue? I think this warrant a serious revamp of game mechanics.

Can I ask you… are you serious? Tank/heal are actually more challenging than zerk by far because you don’t have the damage to take down an enemy and you have greater risk of actually dying because you lack damage.

4-letter word: L.A.M.E.

In this game there is never a PvE situation where tankiness is better than damage. This game is all about avoiding hits – any step you take towards taking or being able to take one more hit is counterproductive.
Though having more transparent agro and hitbox system would be nice. (and some limit to how fast mobs can turn around)

Sirendor.1394:

Can I ask you… are you serious? Tank/heal are actually more challenging than zerk by far because you don’t have the damage to take down an enemy and you have greater risk of actually dying because you lack damage.

4-letter word: L.A.M.E.

But you can tank which is mindlessly easy than using active defense.

Funny thing, mobs actually do swarm like flies onto the player with the most toughness, it really get hilarious when (because you got a little toughness from knights armor (zerk trinks) and traitpoints) every mob is constantly spamming you for attention (since you are still the one with the most toughness).

Sirendor.1394:

Can I ask you… are you serious? Tank/heal are actually more challenging than zerk by far because you don’t have the damage to take down an enemy and you have greater risk of actually dying because you lack damage.

4-letter word: L.A.M.E.

No, tank/heal is not challenging.

Furthermore, why is it okay that stuff like PVT/tank/regen is dominant in WvW (being the go to for the zerg), useful in spvp and also strong in PVE?

It is far stronger across the board when you consider all facets of the game, and somebody needs to think of the children and nerf it to the ground for the good of the future generations.

Ha, nice post OP !
It’s easy to see the irony/parody of the zerk threads.
However, what’s interesting is that … it’s just true. It promotes passive play,; spamming 1 from the furthest you can and it’s bad.
Also very good point about the fact that people are cryingabout zerk elitism but what about PVT elitism/ PVT meta in WvW ?
Let’s nerf both then ?

They should nerf PVT/Clerics already. If you can faceroll a dungeon without dodging once then something is definetly wrong.

i dont care about them nerfing support but i want zerker nerfed as well. The only tree here wich is highly unrespected is control and either they improve on it or they nerf both support and dps to put them on near equal level i dont care.

I agree a tanking elementalist or guardian needs a nerf on its survivability

I agree a full zerk character who puts in 60k+ crits needs a nerf of at least 40% to its damage

But i dont agree on the fact that the hammer warrior who keeps mobs stunned and defenceless or the minion master necromancer who distract mobs with minions knock them down fear them around and sometime even heals the party are regarded as rubbish because of the fact that they aint pure support or pure damage, Pets deserve apreciation and a good stunlocker who actualy manage to keep mobs inactive for long periods of time while the dps pound them into the ground should actualy be reguarded with respect rather then disgust. Right now control is regarded as a hybrid between support and damage but control is actualy an entirely defrent role. Sure control can support like the dps does and deal somewhat average damage at best equal to condition user but the real strenght of the build is its ability to keep the mobs in check wich is utherly underestimated by the community right now.

Sirendor.1394:

Can I ask you… are you serious? Tank/heal are actually more challenging than zerk by far because you don’t have the damage to take down an enemy and you have greater risk of actually dying because you lack damage.

4-letter word: L.A.M.E.

actually you wont die in tank/healing gear because nothing is able to kill you.
and thats why its far from challenging.
if you still die then you should ask yourself if gw2 is the right game for you.

im waiting for the day when people start to use their brain before writing comments on this forum.

greater risk of dying – because you lack damage
???
doesnt make sense

NoTrigger.8396:

greater risk of dying – because you lack damage
???
doesnt make sense

Tell that to Anet and their high damage bosses which ignore armour.

kyubi.3620:

i dont care about them nerfing support but i want zerker nerfed as well. The only tree here wich is highly unrespected is control and either they improve on it or they nerf both support and dps to put them on near equal level i dont care.

I agree a tanking elementalist or guardian needs a nerf on its survivability

I agree a full zerk character who puts in 60k+ crits needs a nerf of at least 40% to its damage

But i dont agree on the fact that the hammer warrior who keeps mobs stunned and defenceless or the minion master necromancer who distract mobs with minions knock them down fear them around and sometime even heals the party are regarded as rubbish because of the fact that they aint pure support or pure damage, Pets deserve apreciation and a good stunlocker who actualy manage to keep mobs inactive for long periods of time while the dps pound them into the ground should actualy be reguarded with respect rather then disgust. Right now control is regarded as a hybrid between support and damage but control is actualy an entirely defrent role. Sure control can support like the dps does and deal somewhat average damage at best equal to condition user but the real strenght of the build is its ability to keep the mobs in check wich is utherly underestimated by the community right now.

you want berserker nerfed because you refuse to accept the fact,
that there are people who are better than you at playing this game,
and therefore can finish dungeons faster.

accept it and get over it.

emanuel posted this in another thread
and i think it describes the mentality of the anti-zerker people very well:

Emanuel.9781:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

“Crab mentality, sometimes referred to as crabs in the bucket, is a phrase that describes a way of thinking best described by the phrase “if I can’t have it, neither can you.” The metaphor refers to a pot of crabs. Individually, the crabs could easily escape from the pot, but instead, they grab at each other in a useless “king of the hill” competition which prevents any from escaping and ensures their collective demise.12 The analogy in human behavior is that members of a group will attempt to “pull down” (negate or diminish the importance of) any member who achieves success beyond the others, out of envy,3 conspiracy or competitive feelings."

Copied from wikipedia. I’m not going to bother writing anything else, as this article pretty much reflects the mentality of everyone wanting zerk/sin gear nerfed so their brainless/subpar/playhowiwant playstyles aren’t worse than no defense, max offense builds.

#2

NoTrigger.8396:

you want berserker nerfed because you refuse to accept the fact,
that there are people who are better than you at playing this game,
and therefore can finish dungeons faster.

accept it and get over it.

Worst argument ever. I actually always take my zerk warrior with gs + axe/shield for dungeons. It’s so ridiculously easy to cleave through monsters while still regaining health through healing sig that you barely have to worry about dying at all.

The problem is not that skilled players can clear a dungeon faster than less skilled ones. The problem is that skilled players with full zerk can clear a dungeon faster than skilled players with any other spec.

Sirendor.1394:

NoTrigger.8396:

you want berserker nerfed because you refuse to accept the fact,
that there are people who are better than you at playing this game,
and therefore can finish dungeons faster.

accept it and get over it.

Worst argument ever. I actually always take my zerk warrior with gs + axe/shield for dungeons. It’s so ridiculously easy to cleave through monsters while still regaining health through healing sig that you barely have to worry about dying at all.

The problem is not that skilled players can clear a dungeon faster than less skilled ones. The problem is that skilled players with full zerk can clear a dungeon faster than skilled players with any other spec.

and here is what you misunderstood:
skilled players dont use other specs.
skilled players dont need to use other specs.
skilled players dont want to use tanky gear because having almost zero room for error is what is fun for them (berserker/assassin gear).

+ warrior is not a good example.
warrior has too much sustain and health.
but that doesnt mean playing other professions full berserker is easy.

This settles it. Nerf pvt/clerics into the ground. These elitists are clearly breaking mechanics in unintended ways based on unverifiable conjecture as to developer intent! Also, it’s ruining my immersion.

NoTrigger.8396:

Sirendor.1394:

NoTrigger.8396:

you want berserker nerfed because you refuse to accept the fact,
that there are people who are better than you at playing this game,
and therefore can finish dungeons faster.

accept it and get over it.

Worst argument ever. I actually always take my zerk warrior with gs + axe/shield for dungeons. It’s so ridiculously easy to cleave through monsters while still regaining health through healing sig that you barely have to worry about dying at all.

The problem is not that skilled players can clear a dungeon faster than less skilled ones. The problem is that skilled players with full zerk can clear a dungeon faster than skilled players with any other spec.

and here is what you misunderstood:
skilled players dont use other specs.
skilled players dont need to use other specs.
skilled players dont want to use tanky gear because having almost zero room for error is what is fun for them (berserker/assassin gear).

+ warrior is not a good example.
warrior has too much sustain and health.
but that doesnt mean playing other professions full berserker is easy.

Even worse. I dare call myself a skilled player in dungeons, having run most to boredom. Truth, I do run berserker, but am I suddenly less skilled because I decide to run something else? Naah. I’m still a good player and I would probably still be faster than a zerker who doesn’t have skill, because he would most likely get downed or even defeated in certain scenarios. Would I still be as fast as an equally skilled player with zerker? Nope. It’s false to say players who don’t run zerker are less skilled than others though.

It’s true that certain classes do not have the benefits warrior has. Ele zerk is extremely glassy, as is thief. I have run both builds on dungeons, and still find them rather easy, dealing huge amounts of damage while stacking the boss in corner.

My point stands. Zerk, combined with stacking is too easy and not really challenging so long as you are an experienced player.

then i would like to ask you for video proof of you playing a 10k hp full berserker ele in dungeons.

builds are like a weighing scale:

berserker:
lots of damage – almost no room for error

tanky dps:
ok damage – more room for error

full hulk mode pvt/clerics:
little damage – turn monitor off and still finish a dungeon without problems.

I don’t record my gameplay. And well as that may be, why are you complaining about tank/heal? Their damage is maybe 1/5th of yours, so by the time they finish a dungeon they’re old and have a beard. There is no tank/heal meta. There is however a zerk meta.

Sirendor.1394:

I don’t record my gameplay. And well as that may be, why are you complaining about tank/heal? Their damage is maybe 1/3th of yours, so by the time they finish a dungeon they’re old and have a beard. There is no tank/heal meta. There is however a zerk meta.

there is a tank/healing meta.
or do you have any other explanation why most of the people i meet in pugs run full hulk?

Sirendor.1394:

I don’t record my gameplay. And well as that may be, why are you complaining about tank/heal? Their damage is maybe 1/5th of yours, so by the time they finish a dungeon they’re old and have a beard. There is no tank/heal meta. There is however a zerk meta.

Full Zerker is only restricted to a small community. It is the demanding community, thus you see LFG posts with “Need Zerk x”.
On the other side, there is the Tank/Heal meta, the majority of the playerbase. The majority is not demanding for Zerk builds, thus you do not see it on LFG, the parties fill up quickly. And why? Because it’s the way the majority plays in GW2.

tl;dr – NoTrigger’s reply.

Now, about the full defense issue, this should be adressed as proven by that video of a keyboardfacepalm Arah P2 with a team of 5 support/tank characters. Is that normal to completly negate one-hitting mechanics? Where is the action MMO gameplay?

well that what to be expected from a game chopped off from everything mmo designers ever designed to keep gameplay balanced.
There is no need to nerf tankiness. Just something to make sure you can’t bother trying to complete a dungeon with 5 of them.

xsquared.1926:

They should nerf PVT/Clerics already. If you can faceroll a dungeon without dodging once then something is definetly wrong.

Sirendor.1394:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sirendor.1394:

NoTrigger.8396:

you want berserker nerfed because you refuse to accept the fact,
that there are people who are better than you at playing this game,
and therefore can finish dungeons faster.

accept it and get over it.

Worst argument ever. I actually always take my zerk warrior with gs + axe/shield for dungeons. It’s so ridiculously easy to cleave through monsters while still regaining health through healing sig that you barely have to worry about dying at all.

The problem is not that skilled players can clear a dungeon faster than less skilled ones. The problem is that skilled players with full zerk can clear a dungeon faster than skilled players with any other spec.

and here is what you misunderstood:
skilled players dont use other specs.
skilled players dont need to use other specs.
skilled players dont want to use tanky gear because having almost zero room for error is what is fun for them (berserker/assassin gear).

+ warrior is not a good example.
warrior has too much sustain and health.
but that doesnt mean playing other professions full berserker is easy.

Even worse. I dare call myself a skilled player in dungeons, having run most to boredom. Truth, I do run berserker, but am I suddenly less skilled because I decide to run something else? Naah. I’m still a good player and I would probably still be faster than a zerker who doesn’t have skill, because he would most likely get downed or even defeated in certain scenarios. Would I still be as fast as an equally skilled player with zerker? Nope. It’s false to say players who don’t run zerker are less skilled than others though.

It’s true that certain classes do not have the benefits warrior has. Ele zerk is extremely glassy, as is thief. I have run both builds on dungeons, and still find them rather easy, dealing huge amounts of damage while stacking the boss in corner.

My point stands. Zerk, combined with stacking is too easy and not really challenging so long as you are an experienced player.

you dont need to halve the zerker damage tbh what you need to do is make it more risky for stacking players and glass cannon in general because as you said its easy mode. I run my glass cannon warrior for high end fractal and get my stuff done but id seriously wish i was given a serious reason to run something else.

What about this, nerf dodge… i mean it nerf DODGE by reducing endurance gain by 50% on all class. Sure you can keep dodging like a pro it just happen youl take hit twice as more often good or not and youl have to stop considering clustering under the angry boss and exposing yourself this much.

what does nerfing dodge do?
1. Make ranged viable and interesting because you aint forced to dodge as often as melee wich now actualy do take hits
2. Make melee glass cannon less appealing to the lower grade player who cant actualy run it right and constantly die from it
3. Make class wich runs summons and crowd controls wich doesnt run on stuns but summonable fodder and distraction (aka mesmers and necromancer) more appealing in a dungeon run.
4. Make balanced build wich runs a mix between zerker and armor actualy a usefull choice other then for just newbies.

http://www.twitch.tv/d_i_c_ktornado/b/495238856 (without the underscores)

Skip to 22:20 or so, shows tanking/healing meta quite well

NoTrigger.8396:

Sirendor.1394:

I don’t record my gameplay. And well as that may be, why are you complaining about tank/heal? Their damage is maybe 1/3th of yours, so by the time they finish a dungeon they’re old and have a beard. There is no tank/heal meta. There is however a zerk meta.

there is a tank/healing meta.
or do you have any other explanation why most of the people i meet in pugs run full hulk?

I have to agree…. 90% of pugs I run into are using cleric or PVT gear. Cleric/PVT needs a serious nerf, so people can stop mindlessly running through dungeons not even dodging.

with zerg i have to doge with full cleric not, hmm what gameplay destroys boss mechanics!?

We should try to make a lvl 49 video without dogding.

We need 1 ranger 1 Ele 1 guard, probably engineer/warrior and something else.

+1 OP.
I am glad you could prove how ridiculously strong defensive gear is. I really enjoyed using my berserker gear, but every time I was pugging I went down way too fast compared to the others. They could simply outsustain all the damage… So I learned something important. DEAD DPS IS NO DPS. And there is no way to go down with defensive gear, you don’t even have to know the encounters…

Sirendor.1394:

I don’t record my gameplay. And well as that may be, why are you complaining about tank/heal? Their damage is maybe 1/5th of yours, so by the time they finish a dungeon they’re old and have a beard. There is no tank/heal meta. There is however a zerk meta.

That’s a huge overstatement.
You can build a group with every party member having over 3k armor ratings, over 1k total HPS, permaprotection, almost permaweakness on bosses, … wich is still over half of the DPS potential of a zeker meta group (because doesn’t ignore permafury, high might stacking and vulnerability stacking, banners, empower allies, …) and which even has permavigor if dodging is eventually needed.

There’s no tank/healing meta at all because for a meta to exist it needs to be based on easy to replicate “templates”.
On a zeker meta you mainly stack damage, which doesn’t have any DR and is never wasted; builds just aim for the most damaging specs and gear (which includes support like abilities to increase ally DPS). If you feel like you need some kind of specific supportive tool, you can just look for the right class.
A sustain setup just needs much more specific builds. Otherwise, you’re at risk of overstacking things like protection, regeneration or just of healing too much, which is a waste and directly hinders the DPS output.

Zeker is the only “meta” because of this, because it has less things to focus builds on and doesn’t rely so strongly on having specialized characaters (those roles some people are looking for).
Organized groups can easily form both DPS or sustain groups, but the game is just easy enough for them to always run the fastest one.

Norjena.5172:

We should try to make a lvl 49 video without dogding.

We need 1 ranger 1 Ele 1 guard, probably engineer/warrior and something else.

i´m the ranger
Spirit of nature OP

And Earthspirit, i didn´t to “waste” the healing hammer/mace smybol for permaprot if i can get a ranger^^.

Well i´ll try to find 3 more crazys guys.

Sirendor.1394:

NoTrigger.8396:

you want berserker nerfed because you refuse to accept the fact,
that there are people who are better than you at playing this game,
and therefore can finish dungeons faster.

accept it and get over it.

Worst argument ever. I actually always take my zerk warrior with gs + axe/shield for dungeons. It’s so ridiculously easy to cleave through monsters while still regaining health through healing sig that you barely have to worry about dying at all.

The problem is not that skilled players can clear a dungeon faster than less skilled ones. The problem is that skilled players with full zerk can clear a dungeon faster than skilled players with any other spec.

Skilled players running dedicated groups can clear dungeon content somewhat faster with more dps than they can with less dps shocker. Amazing stuff and truly gamebreaking.

Take your zerk warrior and dump him in a random group with little idea of what they are doing. Still easy to cake walk dungeons? Take him and dump in spvp or WvW, still blitzing everyone whilst reading the newspaper are we?

“It’s not fair that my PVT trash tank can’t be the dominant WvW meta, capable in spvp, able to do all the pve but not be able to speed run dungeons as fast as a dedicated dps group who know what they are doing, waaaaah!!.”

Yeah zerk really needs a nerf….

Can people really not see how having more dps/damage if you are capable of using it and staying alive might clear stuff faster in an active defence game than if you have less dps/damage? The mind boggles.

sure, than i take the moa for extra prot, but will not be perma, for that we all need much boonduration

Hammer+Spirit could be enough, take the healing Moa, MOA HEAL!

every moa heals, but one can buff prot for 4 secs

Guard hammer + 2 second symbol duration trait, boon duration runes if you REALLY want to make sure to have 100% prot uptime, swap to mace when your group hits 12 seconds of protection to stack regen, then back.

@Bambula: I don’t think red moa actually heals.

Emanuel.9781:

Guard hammer + 2 second symbol duration trait, boon duration runes if you REALLY want to make sure to have 100% prot uptime, swap to mace when your group hits 12 seconds of protection to stack regen, then back.

@Bambula: I don’t think red moa actually heals.

That´s it, i want healing symbols + battle presence. With shout + spirit + runes we should get 100% protection without Writ of Persistence.

Norjena.5172:

Emanuel.9781:

Guard hammer + 2 second symbol duration trait, boon duration runes if you REALLY want to make sure to have 100% prot uptime, swap to mace when your group hits 12 seconds of protection to stack regen, then back.

@Bambula: I don’t think red moa actually heals.

That´s it, i want healing symbols + battle presence. With shout + spirit + runes we should get 100% protection without Writ of Persistence.

With boon duration runes, hammer + x/sh and Hold the Line! can achieve permaprot without Writ of Persistence. Spirit of Earth could cover the Runes.
I’m saying this because there’s a chance you don’t really want perma-hammer; it could make blasting water (or any other kind of) fields quite frustrating.

Yes, and the mace has got strong healing skills too. Our biggest problem will be the agony. I´ve got only Zerk juwelierys.

Waterfields are often bigger then the hammerfield, so it should be ok to blast them. Stacking Frostaura will be a bigger problem.

every moa got a heal on the passiv attacks

Ok until we have enough AR to do lvl 49. Some Ideas to facetank.

1. Champ Icebroodwolf in CoE, Abo P2/3
2. TA Trash + Leurant
3. Arah P4 Balthasar and Melandru melee

Hilarious… yada yada yada (15 char)

Go try tanking low level fractals for now. Just stand still and press 1.

From old blue plz (wow)
If tank is crap the group dies
If healer is crap the group dies
If a DPS is crap the fight takes maybe a second or two longer

Translated to GW2
If you are kitten in a build focused on healing you die and cause the group to maybe wipe
If you are kitten in a build focused on ccing or boss positioning/manipulation and run with unskilled people its a wipe
If you are kitten in a offensive build you just cost the team a few seconds

Here for zerker situation:
If you are support in zerker you are probably forced into it by meta standards since there are mathematically better options for supports in terms of support
if you are control in zerker read above
If you are defensive with team buffs in zerker you are probably skilled enough to understand how to play
if you are in zerker for the sake of cheating encounters you should try to lick that electrical socket, there is loot for finishing that “quest”.