Guild Wars 2

I whant to see sorrow.2364 playing tpvp Necromancer vs competitive team.

You can prove to all that this paper theory works and doesn’t exist only on paper
You can finally prove how great is Necromancer in pvp, and how other players including the top teams in last pvp leagues are wrong to not play Necromancers.

W8ting for video

You don’t need to see me play Necromancer, nor I want to waste time to make a video you will surely dismiss as you did with any of my reasoning.

You can simply go watch any BooN match that has ALWAYS ran a Necromancer in their team comp.
You can check Ventari’s post history (with a little highlight), which is the Necromancer of BooN, or perhaps take a look at what Sensotix thinks about the profession.

On the other hand, I’m still trying to figure out where you guys got all of this high level tPvP experience to the point that you feel the right to question mine, since I can’t find you on any leaderboard, both EU and NA :/

I’m rank 60 on NA soloQ leaderboard (or was last night probably decayed), Blackmoa is rank 285 on EU teamQ, djooce is 69 on teamQ and 15 on soloQ. Zombify, who hasn’t seen fit to grace us with his presence but completely agrees with us, was on the top NA team for the PAX invitational.

I’ll agree Necro has some use right now, primarily because every build really wants to run boon stacking and we can remove them. However you are still really punishing your team by forcing them into a 2 node strategy and having someone on the team who needs a devoted peeler.

The Dumbfire era aside, when we were blatantly overpowered, Necro at a high level has been nearly non-existent in competitive PvP in EU, and only very few people in NA. I used to talk with Gibbly and Black Avarice, two great necros who don’t play anymore, and they would constantly tell me about how it was impossible for them to get a team as a Necro; Gibbly even got kicked off his team simply because he would only play Necro. Symbolic was also forced to play Ranger for ages, despite hating it. There have been exactly three times where Necromancer has been really big in PvP, and not just a niche pick by teams who recognized a Necro who was just exceptionally skilled (comparable to when Hman was the ONLY warrior playing when it was awful because he was just good), and that was at launch when people sucked, when D/D ele was broken and would be a dedicated peel for the Necro, and when Dhuumfire made us able to kill bunkers by auto attacking.

Bhawb.7408:

I’m rank 60 on NA soloQ leaderboard (or was last night probably decayed), Blackmoa is rank 285 on EU teamQ, djooce is 69 on teamQ and 15 on soloQ. Zombify, who hasn’t seen fit to grace us with his presence but completely agrees with us, was on the top NA team for the PAX invitational.

I was specifically talking to Klaus and Abimes. I’m not the guy who ask for credentials when making an argument if the reasoning is solid.

Bhawb.7408:

I’ll agree Necro has some use right now, primarily because every build really wants to run boon stacking and we can remove them. However you are still really punishing your team by forcing them into a 2 node strategy and having someone on the team who needs a devoted peeler.

Playing 2 nodes has always been a valid strategy when you can’t count on heavy mobility and it is not punishing at all if you are sure you can get a solid grasp on them.
True that the meta right now is all about 3 nodes play with heavy mobility, but that does not mean that it is the only option.

sorrow.23

Playing 2 nodes has always been a valid strategy when you can’t count on heavy mobility and it is not punishing at all if you are sure you can get a solid grasp on them.
True that the meta right now is all about 3 nodes play with heavy mobility, but that does not mean that it is the only option.

The problem is that in the current meta you can’t guarantee that. 2 nodes isn’t necessarily bad, in fact in general it is what teams tend towards (with one player like a thief/engi/ele/mesmer/warrior/ranger depending on the specific patch going to far), but Necromancer doesn’t even bring a ton to that, except for boon removal. It is certainly nice, its the one thing keeping us alive right now, but it simply isn’t enough. Even if one or two players can just barely manage to make necro work, that doesn’t mean we are good as a class, it means they and their teams are good.

All I think we need is very small adjustments, not to our base (as in don’t just go around buffing skills that are already good), but to our options. Buffing options allows you to drop something that isn’t good in the current meta/team comp/whatever, but without just getting a flat power increase. For example if Flesh Wurm was buffed to be a much better teleport (which helps out all three of the big meta builds right now), it still limits Necros to two other utility skills, instead of having a super cheese epi/CB/SoS combo.

Bhawb.7408:

The problem is that in the current meta you can’t guarantee that. 2 nodes isn’t necessarily bad, in fact in general it is what teams tend towards (with one player like a thief/engi/ele/mesmer/warrior/ranger depending on the specific patch going to far), but Necromancer doesn’t even bring a ton to that, except for boon removal. It is certainly nice, its the one thing keeping us alive right now, but it simply isn’t enough. Even if one or two players can just barely manage to make necro work, that doesn’t mean we are good as a class, it means they and their teams are good.

All I think we need is very small adjustments, not to our base (as in don’t just go around buffing skills that are already good), but to our options. Buffing options allows you to drop something that isn’t good in the current meta/team comp/whatever, but without just getting a flat power increase. For example if Flesh Wurm was buffed to be a much better teleport (which helps out all three of the big meta builds right now), it still limits Necros to two other utility skills, instead of having a super cheese epi/CB/SoS combo.

Necro is the only profession who can reliably melt any bunker without being insanely squishy, which is far from bad and many teams run it. BooN is one of the famous ones, but also Car Crash always ran a necro (not sure if they quit after ToL tho). It is viable despite what people say here.

What you have to consider is that people when making a choice about a profession to fill a slot in a team usually consider what is the best profession which fills the role I need. That means that if there is a profession which is too powerful, most teams tend to use that one instead of evenly balance the team.
Necromancer is a solid choice in a team comp, but why would I bring it if I can bring a stupid OP 25 mightstack warrior and put a mediocre player behind it?

Sure Necro needs some tweaks as any other profession do and it surely needs more build options but it isn’t overall in a bad state.

Necromancers are supposed to be a non-mobile profession, but it is far to be a death sentence in competitive PvP. There are several non-mobile professions in the meta, first of all the bunker guardian, whose only mobility skill is a swiftness symbol that can’t even guarantee a decent swiftness uptime, that safely hold their spots because of what they bring to the team. If you want to bring more options to Necromancer, I think that mobility isn’t a good choice.
There are several way to bring more options to Necromancers, starting to giving some use to the Blood Magic traitline and Healing Power in general, but mobility and vigor… they won’t happen for sure.

KlausKNT.9302:

sorrow.2364- can you understand the simple question?
Answer same as yours- You can watch the pvp leagues fights to know why winning teams don’t take necro.
Just watch carefully, and this will explain You all
easy? isn’t it??
sorrow.2364:
“Playing 2 nodes has always been a valid strategy when you can’t count on heavy mobility and it is not punishing at all if you are sure you can get a solid grasp on them.
True that the meta right now is all about 3 nodes play with heavy mobility, but that does not mean that it is the only option.”

Prove me that playing 2 nodes team with necro its ok vs competitive team with 3 nodes and heavy mobility
Oh i know .. you have no time to prove this or make video, but you still have time to theorycrafting on forum ?
nice troll
On the other hand.
Do You really think that players who took off in leagues dont try all options, dont play pvp from a long time, dont make x tests to finally take the best team comp.?
You really belive this?
I know that Anet try balance all class to be competitive in pvp- and they still have much work to do. The main problem here is that balance on paper don’t compare in practise. The Dev may tell that Necro on paper is attrition class, and when you start fight necro you’re almost no able to escape them, they may tell that ds is a great sustain toll- but on practise this theorycrafting simple DONT WORK.
The last leagues show how good necro is now in pvp- if You still cannot accept this, its Your problem dude- beter stay in your reasonable world

You probably ignored what I’ve said and you’re basing your opinion only on what you see in the finals of tournaments without having a clue on what really happens.
You are just counting the professions and getting to baseless conclusions.
You are under the assumption that the profession carry the players and it isn’t the player who play the profession at its best.

I’ve linked you to the opinion of a well known and competent team about Necromancer and you utterly ignored it keeping spouting your pointless claims.

Keep going, there is no point to argue with you.

You tell that taking the best option to win is not the best option? really?
Looks like you ignoring all reasons why most teams don’t take necro in last pvp leagues.
I think there really is no point to argue with a player who cannot see the simple reasons about why something is good or bad in team pvp, and why some classes are better choice here.
So good luck on prove your theorycrafting or making video
I really wanna see this

@Sorrow

You can look for me for ages in leaderboards i stopped to play this game last year … which doesn’t mean i forgot everything about the game , it neither don’t mean i’m not looking streams , and talking to Top players and making my own point of view.

“Car Crash always ran a necro”

Just ask posi what he think about necro ftm , and you will be fixed.

Anyway like most ppl say thérocrafting is nice and i see you enjoy it , so keep it on.

djooceboxblast.9876:

Just because Ventari or Sensotix says something it does not mean that they are right. They won the last esl weekly, and it was deserved, but the only reason for that was a lack of motivation from 55hp monks side (which i can totally understand).

In both of the matches Ventari was put on close doing absolutely nothing because is was the only reasonable thing to do. 55hp monks kept outrotating them so they had to secure close by doing that. 55hp monks played badly and threw it away and that is the only reason boon won. Ventari contributed very little to the win other than standing afk on a point. I am not saying that he is a bad necromancer – he is a very good necromancer, but that does not change the fact that necro lacks potential/viability in several areas compared to other professions.

Of course.
I don’t think that Ventari and Sensotix speak the truth regardless, but they are competent players who managed to play with Necromancer in their team succesfully and are under the opinion that Necro is fine and not a bad profession as anyone thinks here.

55HPM didn’t played bad. They actually made quite good rotations and managed to get several back de-caps. BooN on the other hand really focused on winning teamfights and didn’t even tried to get backcap (Sensotix never split to get a decap on close the whole match) and they actually did.

Ventari wasn’t parked on close, except for half of the first match. In the same time Ventari was parked on close, there was still another 55HPM member parked there too (either Lisey or Shad), so I don’t think it is relevant in any way.

In the second match, Ventari was in all the teamfights and actually gave quite a good contribution to them. They weren’t able to win the midfight at half of the match at first try because of large and forgiving is mid in Legacy, but completely annihilated 55HPM on far and Ventari was there.

@ sorrow:
Everything can be successful. You can win solo queue without a main hand weapon.
Does that mean playing without a main hand weapon is okay?

The answer is obvious.

Necro is bad right now. Devs didn’t test enough and they moved away from balance once again.

War is by far a better choice in every possible scenario.
A thief is by and large a safer, more versatile and useful choice.
Ele as well provides greater benefits.
Same with engie, ranger and even mesmer.

I’m still waiting for a viable build from you, that can stand on its own like all the meta builds for other professions.

Team Paradigm was a top team for quite a while (before quitting obv), and they forced Symbolic onto Ranger. In NA you simply got kicked if you were a necro that didn’t reroll.

Bhawb.7408:

Team Paradigm was a top team for quite a while (before quitting obv), and they forced Symbolic onto Ranger. In NA you simply got kicked if you were a necro that didn’t reroll.

Bhawb, maybe you could link the podcast from yesterday here?

Maybe make a few pointers for discussion.

In my opinion conditions in a random 1vs 1 situation are good, but if you need to capture a capture point, the whole situation is different. You need to stay in a small circle, otherwise the enemy will capture the point. This makes crippling/freezing way less useful, since the enemy still can reach you very fast. ‘’keeping the enemy off you’’ is not working very well with conditions, except fear (while the enemy ofc shouldnt have stability). This is the main reason I dropped my scepter and focus, and started with a d/d well-build.
This build looks better at surviving inside a capturepoint, but now problems are rising with ranged classes that attack you. The scepter does not work with a power d/d build, and the staff auto attack sucks too hard to be viable. Oh, and let’s not forget about the lack of stability and stun breakers. Honestly, I think that this last complain is the main reason why there were so less necro’s at ToL. They simply have a low chance against all those warriors.

HeadCrowned.6834:

Oh, and let’s not forget about the lack of stability and stun breakers. Honestly, I think that this last complain is the main reason why there were so less necro’s at ToL. They simply have a low chance against all those warriors.

I think this is an important point since necros were the meta nearly a year ago, but warriors were the counter with CC and survivability. But necros were nerfed rather heavily since then while warriors remain shaved but still very strong.

@ HeadCrowned :

Not sure the problem is the number of Stunt breaks / stab access … it’s more about how you’d get away from the focus or how to Sustain it without losing all the pressure you put on the enemy team. ( the low access to boon for necro , would make stability easy to remove …(maybe that would be ok , even removed fast but i doubt) or you have to sync it well with your guardian/ele so he can cover your stab.)

Someone have news on the new update (date , balance fix , etc ?) ?

Bhawb.7408:

Team Paradigm was a top team for quite a while (before quitting obv), and they forced Symbolic onto Ranger. In NA you simply got kicked if you were a necro that didn’t reroll.

Who was before forced onto Necromancer from Elementalist.

Blackmoa.3186:

That is nto true. CM played with necromancer, in fact Blackjack mains necro, he just doesnt feel its worthwhile bringing one to teh team atm and therefore plays different classes.
55HP sometimes brought a necro when they where still called [shad] aswell.

I can’t find any match in which CM played with Necromancer. The oldest match I can find is from the first days of November and they were already running the double warrior team comp and, if I’m not wrong, CM formed around october.

Same applies to 55HPM (so [shad]), can’t find any worthwile mach when they were playing with a Necro.

If they ever played a Necro in their team comp, then I would say it was for testing purposes as they never really played with Necro stably.

leman.7682:

I’m still waiting for a viable build from you, that can stand on its own like all the meta builds for other professions.

Path of Corruption Necromancers are extremely solid. You aren’t forced to pick Dhuumfire so you can spend the remaining 8 traitpoints on defensive traitlines.
Now that DS can soak more damage, you can sustain a lot by investing in Soul Reaping and high vitality.

djooceboxblast.9876:

Bhawb, maybe you could link the podcast from yesterday here?

Maybe make a few pointers for discussion.

I’ll edit this post once its up on the website. Should be up fairly soon.
Just so everyone knows, this was Blackmoa, Zombify, Djooce, and later on myself, talking about this very topic. I believe the podcast ends right at 2 hours.

sorrow.2364:

Bhawb.7408:

Team Paradigm was a top team for quite a while (before quitting obv), and they forced Symbolic onto Ranger. In NA you simply got kicked if you were a necro that didn’t reroll.

Who was before forced onto Necromancer from Elementalist.

Blackmoa.3186:

That is nto true. CM played with necromancer, in fact Blackjack mains necro, he just doesnt feel its worthwhile bringing one to teh team atm and therefore plays different classes.
55HP sometimes brought a necro when they where still called [shad] aswell.

I can’t find any match in which CM played with Necromancer. The oldest match I can find is from the first days of November and they were already running the double warrior team comp and, if I’m not wrong, CM formed around october.

Same applies to 55HPM (so [shad]), can’t find any worthwile mach when they were playing with a Necro.

If they ever played a Necro in their team comp, then I would say it was for testing purposes as they never really played with Necro stably.

leman.7682:

I’m still waiting for a viable build from you, that can stand on its own like all the meta builds for other professions.

Path of Corruption Necromancers are extremely solid. You aren’t forced to pick Dhuumfire so you can spend the remaining 8 traitpoints on defensive traitlines.
Now that DS can soak more damage, you can sustain a lot by investing in Soul Reaping and high vitality.

Team Paradigm were forced into playing necromancer after the dhuumfire patch. Necromancer was extremely strong at that point and so was s/d thief. Phantaram switched to necro and Xeph to thief. I happen to have played with and talked a lot to the guys from TP, and before the dhuumfire patch they never wanted to play with a necro because there were other more viable choices. Which is why Symbolic rerolled to ranger.

Black Jack played necro for CM a while back right before dhuumfire got nerfed. So yes, CM played with a necro before hambow got discovered. I played against them, so i should know.

Shad never really played with a stable necro in their team – so that you are right about! I also talk a lot to Karsaib from 55hp monks, and also they think that necro is in a really bad state. “Necro sucks kitten ” Karsaib.

I am not stating this to prove you wrong – i just think we need correct facts to state the obvious.

Oh i see this topic is still going
For all who dont know or don’t remember- here come little last 2 leagues necro history:

So after x eles nerf dev decided to make leagues – it was funn last time it will be fun this time to
But first let’s make some “balance” path.
And here we go- necro was born on leagues.
The only reason why pll take necro on the previous league was dumbfire buff. Because of this stupid buffs necro was to OP to not be taken in team. Ewen when he have no mobility and no ff def. Necro was viable because he was moving hell to enemy team (to much dps pressure). They make hotfix before leagues to nerf dumbfire but it was still to strong to not be taken.
And then come leagues to show necro almost in all teams.
After, dev discovered they make mistake with dumbfire, they start nerfing other necro skills in dubfire spec. So after this they argued that dubfire is now ok, because they nerf other necro skills.
And after that come last “balance” path with make dumbfire move to ds and not so useful like before.
And after come last leagues.
So after this come last leagues with shows that necro is no more a good choice in team.
Why we shall take necro when there are much better choices?
Necro was picked before because it was op on dps pressure because of dubfire.
Now necro have no op dps pressure, no mobility, no ff defence the only one what he have its boon striping- but usually necron don’t survive enough to be usefull on boon strip, so why necro shal be picked in teams?
No good reason on competitive team so it’s usually skipped and players playing before necro now picking other class because they are better choice NOW.
And this is end of the little necro history for now.
Here we come to present day- now we discuss about the state of Necro in pvp.
Someone who tell me that this history of Necromancer in leagues is not true?
Someone who want discuss about it ?
I think here come changes to necro in the future..
I hope it it will be some smart balance fixes, not a bufs/nerfs from 0 / hero

djooceboxblast.9876:

Black Jack played necro for CM a while back right before dhuumfire got nerfed. So yes, CM played with a necro before hambow got discovered. I played against them, so i should know.

Before Dhuumfire nerf, almost any team ran Necromancer.
I don’t know how it can be considered relevant.

sorrow.2364:

djooceboxblast.9876:

Black Jack played necro for CM a while back right before dhuumfire got nerfed. So yes, CM played with a necro before hambow got discovered. I played against them, so i should know.

Before Dhuumfire nerf, almost any team ran Necromancer.
I don’t know how it can be considered relevant.

How can it not be considered relevant? What you say is completely right, but why would any team suddenly stop playing with a necro? Dhuumfire combined with everything else (terror, bleeds, poison) made necro able to melt basically anything in seconds without even trying hard/being skilled – and that was the only reason why people wanted to bring a necro and that as a trait is not really reliable in tpvp anymore.

Sure, corrupting boons is a nice craft but mesmers do something similar by stripping boons while also bringing more damage, mobility (blink, phase retreat, portal) and tactical possibilities (portal, mass invis, moa).

On top of that we got several other nerfs (terror, mark of blood, grasp of the dead, weakening shroud, putrid mark, corrupt boon) and necro as a whole is “worse” than it was pre dhuumfire. We have gotten some buffs here and there aswell (path of corruption, bigger default marks, longer poison on putrid curse), but nothing that really makes up for our losses and the development of other professions.

I bought a Witch’s Outfit for my Necro today and decided to hop on it and take a look at the Necro forums. As someone who mains ele, I felt a strong Deja vu when I saw the state of the Necro as it was being portrayed on the forums. It looks like ele did before they buffed it back into the light. From what I read, I concluded that the Devs decided to go on a nerf frenzy against Necros (Maybe they took all of the condi hate out on them), reducing them to the point where people are saying the class is not viable in PvP. Hopefully, you’ll get lucky and it’ll take the Devs less than a year to fix you. I hope ele doesn’t trade places with you at the bottom of the barrel again… (inb4 Strength Rune nerf)

Thankfully Necromancer isn’t in (imo) quite as bad of a position as ele was for quite a while. Unfortunately, what it will take to fix Necromancers is the addition of totally new traits and skills, which could take a while.

I laughed more than I should have. Necromancers need anything but buffs.

djooceboxblast.9876:

How can it not be considered relevant? What you say is completely right, but why would any team suddenly stop playing with a necro? Dhuumfire combined with everything else (terror, bleeds, poison) made necro able to melt basically anything in seconds without even trying hard/being skilled – and that was the only reason why people wanted to bring a necro and that as a trait is not really reliable in tpvp anymore.

Sure, corrupting boons is a nice craft but mesmers do something similar by stripping boons while also bringing more damage, mobility (blink, phase retreat, portal) and tactical possibilities (portal, mass invis, moa).

On top of that we got several other nerfs (terror, mark of blood, grasp of the dead, weakening shroud, putrid mark, corrupt boon) and necro as a whole is “worse” than it was pre dhuumfire. We have gotten some buffs here and there aswell (path of corruption, bigger default marks, longer poison on putrid curse), but nothing that really makes up for our losses and the development of other professions.

For the same reason most team are now stopping playing Ranger, despite the fact that Ranger is not even close to being underpowered.

It is just that now there are more options and people aren’t forced to pick just a single profession to fit that role or just because the metagame shifted.

What you said about mesmer is absolutely right, but there are things that Necromancers can do but mesmer can’t, like holding a node reliably or provide better condition pressure (which bunkers have a much harder time mitigating).

True that Necromancer got several nerfs, but buffs were pretty big too, especially on the survivability side. Necromancer is now much more survivable as it used to be a year or more ago while having slightly less damage.

If anything, Necromancer should have more roles to fit in a teamcomp rather than the boon-corrupter/bunker-melter and I totally agree with that, but I really don’t think that it needs any buff in that aspect.

Necro got survivability buffs in 1v1. Anything more than one opponent and their survivability has actually been nerfed (due to ICD’s) since pre-dhuumfire.

And it’s because necros have so little in the way of active defense that they really can’t hold a point alone. When you have a Necro and the Guardian or Warrior peeling for him sitting on a point…why not dump the necro, use the guardian or warrior to hold the point solo, and get a free spot for someone else?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Necro got survivability buffs in 1v1. Anything more than one opponent and their survivability has actually been nerfed (due to ICD’s) since pre-dhuumfire.

And it’s because necros have so little in the way of active defense that they really can’t hold a point alone. When you have a Necro and the Guardian or Warrior peeling for him sitting on a point…why not dump the necro, use the guardian or warrior to hold the point solo, and get a free spot for someone else?

You are not supposed to hold 2vs1 for extended periods of time.

You have tools to mitigate damage, but if you’re getting several people focusing at you, then you are supposed to either disengage or waiting for a teammate to back you up and to put some pressure on the offenders.

Warriors and Guardians can’t hold a node solo too against multiple people.

sorrow.2364:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Necro got survivability buffs in 1v1. Anything more than one opponent and their survivability has actually been nerfed (due to ICD’s) since pre-dhuumfire.

And it’s because necros have so little in the way of active defense that they really can’t hold a point alone. When you have a Necro and the Guardian or Warrior peeling for him sitting on a point…why not dump the necro, use the guardian or warrior to hold the point solo, and get a free spot for someone else?

You are not supposed to hold 2vs1 for extended periods of time.

You have tools to mitigate damage, but if you’re getting several people focusing at you, then you are supposed to either disengage or waiting for a teammate to back you up and to put some pressure on the offenders.

Warriors and Guardians can’t hold a node solo too against multiple people.

Yeah, we totally didnt have a meta which consisted of engies rangers guards warriors and eles keeping points up to 1v3 trough sheer heals and invuls, ignoring any damage in their build to ensure a cap and there totally aint videos of it on youtube *cough just type it spvp 1v2 for results or even a thief 1v2ing phoenix level opponents from 100% like 3 months ago which blu put up on youtube *

Flat out no, sustain on necro got nerfed because of the removal of DS absorb and spectral icds. You are supposed to disengage on professions which have get out of jail cards because they usually have high damage multipliers and are based on poking/bursting enemies in such situations, you are supposed to stick in and fight on guys like necros warriors and guardians.

Seriously please, you are putting even people who dont really go for pvp as their main thing (but just casually watch streams/highlights) to shame with random stupid posts with no historical basis.

sorrow.2364:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Necro got survivability buffs in 1v1. Anything more than one opponent and their survivability has actually been nerfed (due to ICD’s) since pre-dhuumfire.

And it’s because necros have so little in the way of active defense that they really can’t hold a point alone. When you have a Necro and the Guardian or Warrior peeling for him sitting on a point…why not dump the necro, use the guardian or warrior to hold the point solo, and get a free spot for someone else?

You are not supposed to hold 2vs1 for extended periods of time.

You have tools to mitigate damage, but if you’re getting several people focusing at you, then you are supposed to either disengage or waiting for a teammate to back you up and to put some pressure on the offenders.

Warriors and Guardians can’t hold a node solo too against multiple people.

When I look at my Necro then it’s not about about 2v1. Nobody should be able to survive a longer 2v1.
As a Necromancer I can look good in 1v1, but in a 2v2 or 3v3 our tools just don’t scale to the situation as it is HP based and not flat vulnerability. This makes the mechanic strong or all right in 1v1 but has strong diminishing returns in team fights. in a 3v3 when you get targeted you just melt down disproportenately, while other classes have invulnerability or blocks or more evades to give your team 1-2 seconds more time to handle the situation of focused fire. Necro in this situations just melts down and is dead, which makes him a lot weaker in team situations than solo, while other classes escapes and defenses are of the same strength in team and solo situations.

One could argue that our defenses to a part are scaling with enemy team size like gaining life force or pushing our AoE weakness, chill etc, but as somebody already said, those are preemptive and can not be used when stunned or focused, as you actually need a few seconds to put marks on earth etc. Our ability to gain more Life force depending on enemy team size is very limited.

sternenstaub.8763:

sorrow.2364:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Necro got survivability buffs in 1v1. Anything more than one opponent and their survivability has actually been nerfed (due to ICD’s) since pre-dhuumfire.

And it’s because necros have so little in the way of active defense that they really can’t hold a point alone. When you have a Necro and the Guardian or Warrior peeling for him sitting on a point…why not dump the necro, use the guardian or warrior to hold the point solo, and get a free spot for someone else?

You are not supposed to hold 2vs1 for extended periods of time.

You have tools to mitigate damage, but if you’re getting several people focusing at you, then you are supposed to either disengage or waiting for a teammate to back you up and to put some pressure on the offenders.

Warriors and Guardians can’t hold a node solo too against multiple people.

When I look at my Necro then it’s not about about 2v1. Nobody should be able to survive a longer 2v1.

Well, bunkers do. They don’t usually kill anyone, but that’s not their job.

As a Necromancer I can look good in 1v1, but in a 2v2 or 3v3 our tools just don’t scale to the situation as it is HP based and not flat vulnerability. This makes the mechanic strong or all right in 1v1 but has strong diminishing returns in team fights. in a 3v3 when you get targeted you just melt down disproportenately, while other classes have invulnerability or blocks or more evades to give your team 1-2 seconds more time to handle the situation of focused fire. Necro in this situations just melts down and is dead, which makes him a lot weaker in team situations than solo, while other classes escapes and defenses are of the same strength in team and solo situations.

One could argue that our defenses to a part are scaling with enemy team size like gaining life force or pushing our AoE weakness, chill etc, but as somebody already said, those are preemptive and can not be used when stunned or focused, as you actually need a few seconds to put marks on earth etc. Our ability to gain more Life force depending on enemy team size is very limited.

100% truth. Necro offense is strong in team fights, but their defense is terrible in those same situations.

Andele.1306:

Yeah, we totally didnt have a meta which consisted of engies rangers guards warriors and eles keeping points up to 1v3 trough sheer heals and invuls, ignoring any damage in their build to ensure a cap and there totally aint videos of it on youtube *cough just type it spvp 1v2 for results or even a thief 1v2ing phoenix level opponents from 100% like 3 months ago which blu put up on youtube *

Flat out no, sustain on necro got nerfed because of the removal of DS absorb and spectral icds. You are supposed to disengage on professions which have get out of jail cards because they usually have high damage multipliers and are based on poking/bursting enemies in such situations, you are supposed to stick in and fight on guys like necros warriors and guardians.

Seriously please, you are putting even people who dont really go for pvp as their main thing (but just casually watch streams/highlights) to shame with random stupid posts with no historical basis.

Please, keep this civil. I don’t want to get another warning to answer back to people who can’t even argue properly.

Even when the hambow was at its apex of opness, it wasn’t able to hold competent people 2vs1 for extended period of time. And by competent people, I mean a team of player who send 2 dps roamers to kill a bunkerish spec and not a support and a bunker.

If you’re talking about the 2vs1 of Shad, that is a whole different beast because it was a 2vs2 tournament, so Shad was free to disengage and re-engage at will, a tactic that is completely unviable in a proper tPvP match, as you will already lost the point and make the fight useless.
Also, Sizer played horribly because he took most of the damage from cleave trying to ress Ventari. In a proper tPvP match, he would have let Ventari just die for him to respawn and then fighting shad 1vs1.
So yeah, maybe you should get informed better next time.

Disengage doesn’t always mean “use your teleport”, which you can still do with Flesh Wurm, but also move away from the fight. If you’re getting heavy pressure, you’d better move away from the fight before your HP gets too low to the point that a thief jumping on you will kill you. That is all about how good are you at taking an advantageous positioning to make melee focus harder.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Well, bunkers do. They don’t usually kill anyone, but that’s not their job.

Actually, bunkers don’t hold 2vs1 for that much time. They can hold 2vs1 only if one of the two opponent is a support with low DPS, but I assure you that even the most competent guardian on this planet can’t hold for even 10s against two competent roamers. They even drop like flies in 1vs1 against profession with boon strips (shatter mesmer or necro).

sorrow.2364:

Bhawb.7408:

Every single top tier player will tell you the same thing, coordinated PvP is about rotations.

Really? I don’t think so.
PvP is about rotations as much as teamfights. You can rotate as good as you want, but if you lose teamfights, you’ll lose the game because you haven’t the staying power to defend your nodes, nor to cap them back..

If you out rotate the other team, you don’t have to win any of the team fights. The scoring is built so that you are better off not fighting if you dont have to.

Everybody who has won a game in solo Q against a 5 man Zerg can testify to this.

Plus, if you out rotate the other team, you will win the team fights. Heroic efforts by bunkers notwithstanding, a team up 4-3 has 33% more power, a team fight of 2-1 has 100% more power.

nekretaal.6485:

If you out rotate the other team, you don’t have to win any of the team fights. The scoring is built so that you are better off not fighting if you dont have to.

Everybody who has won a game in solo Q against a 5 man Zerg can testify to this.

Plus, if you out rotate the other team, you will win the team fights. Heroic efforts by bunkers notwithstanding, a team up 4-3 has 33% more power, a team fight of 2-1 has 100% more power.

Well, if you are playing for 3 points, then you are susceptible to be out-rotated by the other team if they have more mobility, but playing for 3 points splitting the fights in small scale encounters isn’t the only working tactic in tPvP.

5 man zerg isn’t really a good example as you don’t really need 5 men moving together to create a teamfight.

By the way, today’s ESL weekly cup had a necro in any team, at least for the ones who has been streamed.
Too much for a profession who is claimed to be unviable.

Becouse i dont want to keep going this discuision i will just write my sugestion about necro:

- more LF generetion via weapon skills/utilitis for example corupt boon/well of coruption gives 3% lf per codni converted

- remove dmg on fear and give us trait that stack on interupt 4-5 stacks of torrment

- increase the distance of wurm to 1500-2000 , reduce cast time to 3/4s

- change “Fear of death” trait into “Corupt on death” to cast well of coruption when we go down

- change some of our bleeds into torment

- add cripple effents to spectral walk when enemy cross the green track

- make a trait that give us ability to heal in DS ofc reduce healing for example 50%

- change "Deadly strenght ’trait into “Protection strenght” witch will give us 3s of protection when we go into DS

- make “Siphoned Power” trait give us might on 33% treshold not 25%

- “Dark Armor” change this trait to give us block effect when we channel but also move this trait into master line and move “Death Shiver” trait to adept

- “Signet mastery” add pasive affect us in DS

Forsaker.9213:

Becouse i dont want to keep going this discuision i will just write my sugestion about necro:

- more LF generetion via weapon skills/utilitis for example corupt boon/well of coruption gives 3% lf per codni converted

- remove dmg on fear and give us trait that stack on interupt 4-5 stacks of torrment

- increase the distance of wurm to 1500-2000 , reduce cast time to 3/4s

- change “Fear of death” trait into “Corupt on death” to cast well of coruption when we go down

- change some of our bleeds into torment

- add cripple effents to spectral walk when enemy cross the green track

- make a trait that give us ability to heal in DS ofc reduce healing for example 50%

- change "Deadly strenght ’trait into “Protection strenght” witch will give us 3s of protection when we go into DS

- make “Siphoned Power” trait give us might on 33% treshold not 25%

- “Dark Armor” change this trait to give us block effect when we channel but also move this trait into master line and move “Death Shiver” trait to adept

- “Signet mastery” add pasive affect us in DS

I would agree with most of it, but why change deathly strength? I think it is fine as it is. Though i like the idea to get protection in ds and it would work in death magic the best…

sorrow.2364:

If you weren’t looking for a constructive discussion but just wanted people to agree with you and ask for buffs, then you should have said that before.

I would have saved a lot of time and words.

I’m sorry for thinking you guys had a brain and some reasoning capability instead of sustaining an argument by just keeping questioning your interlocutor’s competence with no real basis.

I hope your worthless crusade for buffs will find some success.
Maybe, someday, Necro will come back to be the noob-carrying profession anyone is asking for.

After lurking over the two threads, this is unfortunately what I feel it has become. While there was some discussion carrying on, it mostly seems to just be,“… a support group thread where Necros agree with one another about how much of a bummer their lives are in top-tier PvP…”. These threads are full of fallacies that less knowledgeable players have piggybacked on. I agree with you Sorrow; in my opinion Necromancer’s are still a balanced class. We shouldn’t be looking at other class possible imbalances as reason to buff Necromancer’s. With that said the patch is still very new, and one month is hardly anytime for a “meta” to fully develop/settle.

Necromancer’s low mobility is by design. The developer’s have made post in the past that have touched on this subject; you can’t have it all. Necromancer’s do have access to several movement hindering abilities though, Unholy Feast, Dark Pact, Chilblains, Grasping Dead, Spinal Shivers, Locust Swarm, every weapon aside from off-hand dagger. Let’s not forget that every Necromancer build has access to Dark Path and Tainted Shackles as well. More mobility requires investment, traits, runes, sigils, or utility. Other classes have to make investments for things like, condition cleanse, that Necromancer’s have on weapon set’s and a heal that clears all conditions. I really don’t feel that Flesh Wurm need’s any buffs as it is already a very strong stun break. Depending on the map/point, smart placement already makes it a free escape if needed. Add that it does damage, hits invisible foe’s (thanks to whoever posted that on the forums, I never noticed), and give’s a quick teleport to vantage points.

I’m not sure how much more sustain Necromancer’s can be given? We already have the highest base hp, matching warriors. In addition we have a second hp bar that scales with vitality, and I agree,“Each time you regenerate Life Force, it is somewhat the equivalent of regenerating HP”. There are ample ways to restore your Life Force, Dagger Auto, Ghastly Claws, Locust Swarm, Reaper’s Touch, Necrotic Grasp, Life Transfer, Spectral’s, etc. Necromancer’s can already absorb a good amount of damage, which makes them exceptional at contesting/holding points if necessary; especially if we start comparing to other classes in 1 v X situations. Generation of Life Force in Deathshroud is even possible via Locust Swarm, Life Transfer, and Spectral’s. Also through experience, I don’t find the icd on Spectral’s to hinder there usefulness. Spectral Armor would be broken without icd, as it would just fill up your Life Force while in Deathshroud; also failing to mention that we have access to two of them by going 3 into Soul Reaping.

sorrow.2364:

2) This is balanced around the downed state health. Necromancers have a sub-par downed state, so does Warrior. This is because downed state health scales only on base HP, which means that Warriors and Necromancers are the most tough professions to kill just by cleave and, as a consequence, the easiest to ress.

Agree.

Also would like to mention, while we don’t have easy access to stability for stomps and revives. We can stomp and revive in Deathshroud, not a very hard technique I rarely see people utilize. It can be very useful in moments when you know they will just cleave down your teammate, or to protect your HP when attempting a stomp.

PandaOp.8017:

We can stomp and revive in Deathshroud, not a very hard technique I rarely see people utilize. It can be very useful in moments when you know they will just cleave down your teammate, or to protect your HP when attempting a stomp.

That is not true, necros cannot stomp or revive in deathshroud. They however can abuse something like deathshroud stomping/reviving (hitting f1 and the res/stomp button at the same time), which obviously has to be a bug, Anet simply never bothered to fix like the swalk cliffjumping. Note here, that you can normally activate instant skills while stomping/ressing without interrupting. With Deathshroud this clearly doesnt work.

And no, even with deathshroud ressing/stomping in cleave is suizid (and a half competent player will interrupt you anyway). Most of the time it is a waste of key pressing unless you have stability.
And lets be honest, while in theory with foot in the grave, necros can have the highest stability uptime of all professions there is one problem. You have to sacrifice too much to get to those stability uptimes unlike Warriors or guardians who can get longer duration stability (with higher cd) in utility skills, which is a lot better than at the end of a trait tree which only power necros really want to take. And then they prefer deathly precision, which is mandertory for any power build…

PandaOp.8017:

Necromancer’s do have access to several movement hindering abilities though, Unholy Feast, Dark Pact, Chilblains, Grasping Dead, Spinal Shivers, Locust Swarm, every weapon aside from off-hand dagger. Let’s not forget that every Necromancer build has access to Dark Path and Tainted Shackles as well.

and they still run away from us.

Those all rely on someone not knowing how to dodge fairly easily dodged abilities while getting away from you. Many professions (warrior, ele, thief) can get 900 range from you long before your abilities even get close to landing, others (engi, mesmer) have easy access to ways to avoid your abilities while creating large distance, so really only rangers, guardians, and other necros can’t escape from necros.

Bhawb.7408:

Those all rely on someone not knowing how to dodge fairly easily dodged abilities while getting away from you. Many professions (warrior, ele, thief) can get 900 range from you long before your abilities even get close to landing, others (engi, mesmer) have easy access to ways to avoid your abilities while creating large distance, so really only rangers, guardians, and other necros can’t escape from necros.

Med guardians also have a decent chance to escape in wvw if they use thier skills correctly (and if there are enough mobs for teleporting ofc). Though the med guards, i met in wvw, are normally not that cowardly…