Guild Wars 2

Some really good points on what a good balance would be for a Warrior, gained from the thread so far:

From Julie Yann,
“One thing that could tone down Cleansing Ire is having it be affected by Burst Mastery. At the moment, you get all the benefits of cleansing 3 conditions when only using 2 bars of adrenaline and a bigger burst on shorter CD so you cleanse more often. Fixing it so that it will only cleanse 1 condi per bar used would tone down it’s potential and force us to make a choice between offense and defense. It’s not much but I believe it would be enough to bring it back in line.”

Over the course of multiple threads, and some feedback, I think the following balancing of the warrior might bring the class up in a better state than just flat nerfs. Personally, I would rather see other professions buffed (Rangers, poor guys, I know the feeling of being ‘down there’) than making Warriors binary. If I do not touch on a certain aspect, it might not have come up in my thoughts or I might not think it needs any changes. Also I compacted things as opposed to long-winded paragraphs, you are welcome.

Healing Skills:
Healing Signet: After 8% nerf, see how it goes, probably could take another 1-3% off before the signet loses value as the sustain warrior’s heal.

Healing Surge: Needs a revamp, burst heal can go up another 10% healing across the board and the active effect needs to complement and not punish warriors for using their Burst and Adrenaline. It’s a silly contrary heal to the profession.

Mending: Out-dated. Specifically due to the recent strain of traits to assist warriors with the formerly worst condition cleanse/mitigation of all the professions, now Mending falls behind for two reasons. The heal is pitiful, and the condition cleanse does not deal with spams. Needs either a rework or a huge buff.

Defiant Stance: Situational, don’t touch.

Utilities:
Endure Pain/Berserker Stance: These are perfectly fine as their durations and cooldowns, expending two slots which could have been used for other gimmicks or skills to have pretty much mandatory defenses to deal with other profession gimmicks is what the warrior NEEDS. And trust me, if the warrior pops both these stances at once, then you forced his big trumps and now you should rush him down.

Banners: Oh how I want these banners to be reworked. SO clunky…I have a few ideas but for the context of this thread I won’t go into detail. I suppose for now they are ‘fine’.

Shouts: I don’t think these need to be tackled at all, with the recent buff to support warriors Shouts might be just right.

Other Signets: In line with other profession signets, its too bad the condition meta is so strong that it is forcing the Berserker Stance or Die mentality in warriors. You would see more play from these otherwise.

Elites: I would love to do something about Rampage, like make their boons unstrippable and maybe add protection…or just increase the health pool, but whatever, warriors love the Signet of Rage.

Weapons:
Greatsword: You can nerf Rush range, if and only if you make the hit from it reliable everytime. Kthx.

Hammer: The things I would do to have leg specialist apply Immobilize to all of Crippling Wave’s targets… Anyways recent nerfs have made a simple stun-break capable of getting you out of the lock without having you near death. Going to get a lot of yelling from my fellow warriors, but stun-break either Earthshaker or Backbreaker, trust me.

Longbow: I actually agree with many of the complaints here, the damage on this weapon is insane. Not only does it build so well into condition, but power as well with Arcing Arrow. Ergo I say make Combustive Shot have the same max radius across all adrenaline levels, slightly nerf Arcing Shot’s base, and Pin Down loses a stack of bleed. I am curious to see how the double-hit from Longbow AA affects the new sigil changes.

Rifle: Although Killshot-build is silly and entertaining, I think the Rifle needs a serious buff and some changes to make it viable compared to Longbow. Ergo, Killshot now shows a special icon on target’s head (In case you can’t see the kneel…I can understand from a ZvZ point of view I guess..), Rifle auto-attack slightly buffed, Volley gets buffed in line with how the auto-attack is now, Brutal Shot applies 5 stacks of Vuln, but it’s cooldown drastically gets reduced in order for a single Rifle Warrior to rapidly stack Vuln on someone for a powerful Killshot. With these changes, Rifle becomes the Power Warrior’s dream and takes more skill to play.

I think I reached the limit for the OP, going to post more as I go down the list. Also just to let you know, I absolutely will be talking about Cleansing Ire in a bit, but bear in mind that a Warrior who does not run Cleansing Ire in this current PvP state of the game is a dead warrior.

Posting some more!

Axe: Ngh…how many Eviscerates have I hit with 60%+ crit chance and not crit?! Mechanically balanced, but there should be some way for a warrior to have his burst skills crit 100% of the time on a Cooldown, make some skillful play. I know! Make it a Grandmaster Trait in Strength or Arms! That’s an idea, give me some feedback on this.

Mace: I would love to see more off-hand Maces, how about making Crushing blow apply more stacks of Vuln? Aside from that recent nerfs have made decent counters to the lockdown of Mace Burst.

Sword: Sword is tricky, the bleed ramping of its auto-attack might be just a touch too fast and spammable. However if LB Pin-down gets my proposed nerf, you might not need to touch it. Friends, let me tell you the simple counter to Impale, if you see three stacks from the impale, cleanse it then. That way you don’t decide to take huge torment damage if you decide to wait for all the stacks to come up, and it helps you out if you are a sustain build.

Shield: I uh…I don’t think people actually hate the shield.

Warhorn: I think we as warriors should be the prime candidates of providing Vigor to everyone, and Warhorn builds utilize this so well. No complaints here.

Traits:

Cleansing Ire is a must for every warrior to deal with how strong conditions are. If I were to suggest that warriors would cleanse 2 conditions for a three bar adrenaline bar and only 1 condition for 1 and 2 bars, you would see Warriors keel over about as fast as pre-buff HS warriors. Personally, there needs to be more methods for a warrior to deal with the condition output than just Cleansing Ire, but not on the same level as this trait in other trait-lines. If done in this manner, and if you all like, make Cleansing Ire a Grandmaster trait, then I can see variety of warriors rising and the power levels of ‘badly-played’ warriors decreasing.

Warriors ARE simple to play, but it has been restated again and again and again that they fall off at high-skill play. I want this to change. I want more complicated mechanics, I want warriors to put in just a bit more play to be around the level of a insanely good elementalist or thief.

That is all I got for now folks, I won’t go into too much detail in each trait unless you bring it up here. Thanks for reading.

Well, all classes have skills that are somewhat pointless but I am not sure there is time to fix them all.

The key is to tone down the warrior frankly. Though, you do have some good buffs for skills that are not used.

As for healing signet, I am tempted to wait and see how the reduction plays out. 8% may not seem like much but may do the trick. It may be 16-24% that does it. I am not even sure that is the issue. If anything, making the warrior slow makes more sense. Best way to beat a warrior, stay away.

Cleansing Ire is a problem. Warriors are supposed to keel over from conditions. That was (at least at start) their weakness. It should be made their weakness again.

Bombsaway.7198:

Cleansing Ire is a problem. Warriors are supposed to keel over from conditions. That was (at least at start) their weakness. It should be made their weakness again.

Not when conditions are prime right now.

I know Warriors need to be more suspectible to conditions, but let’s face the facts that until either mechanically or numerically conditions get changed to be less passive to implement as opposed to active damage from swinging your weapon, that the warrior needs to have something to deal with it. For months we have been seeing a steady stream of buffs to handle the conditions (imo, a bad way mind you) through immunities and less active cleansing. If A-Net wants to handle conditions in this manner, then we can’t leave Warriors to eat everything.

I wouldn’t get rid of cleansing ire, but I would make conditions what warriors worry about. In short, if you dual a warrior, the way to win would be to load them up with conditions and stay away from their heavy hits. For the warrior, the way to win is to kill that darn condition spammer!

I always thought that automated response (no new conditions at 25% health) fit the warrior. In other words, you should become very weak by conditions but not die. They still have to fight you in that weakened state with physical damage and even at 25% a warrior’s damage is still frightening for a squishy class. That would be quite amazing.

Healing Surge: Needs a revamp, burst heal can go up another 10% healing across the board and the active effect needs to complement and not punish warriors for using their Burst and Adrenaline. It’s a silly contrary heal to the profession.

what? i really like the way the skills works. makes you think about when and how to use it and your burst. i wish more skills would be like this

Bombsaway.7198:

I wouldn’t get rid of cleansing ire, but I would make conditions what warriors worry about. In short, if you dual a warrior, the way to win would be to load them up with conditions and stay away from their heavy hits. For the warrior, the way to win is to kill that darn condition spammer!

I always thought that automated response (no new conditions at 25% health) fit the warrior. In other words, you should become very weak by conditions but not die. They still have to fight you in that weakened state with physical damage and even at 25% a warrior’s damage is still frightening for a squishy class. That would be quite amazing.

They balance for 5v5 in an OP condition meta. Warrior is there to kill the condi spammer for the rest of the team ATM. How can they do that if they are weaker to conditions than the rest of the classes. I know making warriors keel over to conditions was Anets original intentions but that all changed when they made conditions so OP and easy to spam.

In my opinion as a competitive warrior player, Cleansing Ire needs to be removed.

Cleansing Ire needs to be removed and built into the Adrenaline mechanics of the class with a toned-down version (3 adrenaline for cleansing 2 conditions, etc). When a trait is so powerful that every build feels like it is mandatory, then the trait is problematic when it comes to build diversity.

Although, I do think the warrior is very powerful, I don’t think the problem is that they are over powered. It’s the fact that all the other classes aren’t equally balanced or completely weak.

Warrior is fine. I actually think their skills aren’t good enough. Banners are nice but there could be more useful skills in my opinion.

TheToxicFox.8710:

Although, I do think the warrior is very powerful, I don’t think the problem is that they are over powered. It’s the fact that all the other classes aren’t equally balanced or completely weak.

^^^ 1000 times this

TheToxicFox.8710:

Although, I do think the warrior is very powerful, I don’t think the problem is that they are over powered. It’s the fact that all the other classes aren’t equally balanced or completely weak.

Warrior is fine. I actually think their skills aren’t good enough. Banners are nice but there could be more useful skills in my opinion.

Wheres the difference between warrior being better than all the other class and all the other classes being weaker than the warrior?

Nerfing one class or buffing everyone else is exactly the same, when it comes to balance between classes

RashanDale.3609:

TheToxicFox.8710:

Although, I do think the warrior is very powerful, I don’t think the problem is that they are over powered. It’s the fact that all the other classes aren’t equally balanced or completely weak.

Warrior is fine. I actually think their skills aren’t good enough. Banners are nice but there could be more useful skills in my opinion.

Wheres the difference between warrior being better than all the other class and all the other classes being weaker than the warrior?

Nerfing one class or buffing everyone else is exactly the same, when it comes to balance between classes

The difference is right now warrior has a variety of viable and good builds. The class itself is well balanced cause you can potentially fulfill any role cause of our that build variety. Most other classes are pigeon holed into a certain type of gameplay and are forced to build a certain way cause it is the only thing that works. Buff up and fix the other broken professions to make them as versatile as the warrior. Then make tweaks certain skills to fine tune the balance. Nerfing a perfectly good profession to make it on par with a broken one will only lead to 2 broken professions.

Hey folks!

First I have to thank you all for providing some responses and feedback to my thoughts, it seems that there is a number of individuals who are of the position that warriors are not so far off from being balanced and the issue is that other professions do not have the same luxury of viable/near viable builds as we do.

With that said, I think I could elaborate on some things questioned.

@RashanDale: Healing Surge does require some thought process and timing to pull off right everytime, however unlike Healing Signet and even Mending, the payoff is less than what it should be when considering the heal amount is directly corresponding to a profession’s mechanics. I made the comparision before in a different thread that Healing Surge needs to compensate with more healing for having:
- An extremely long cooldown
- Suspectibility to Poison (much like other heals)
- Can be interrupted easily (1 second channel)
- Every other stage than stage 3 makes the heal a waste.

However, there is a stipulation that because Healing Surge will also refill your adrenaline to full, that ‘instantly makes the skill viable’.

Well I say nay!

Adrenaline is a relatively easy resource to increase, especially when recently changes to Berserker Stance and the new Cleansing Ire, our Adrenaline overall has become easier to fill. I agree that Healing Surge should punish you for using it improperly, but for the general warrior health pool across all builds, the burst heal is not quite enough for the 30 second downtime.

Now, I also stated that the active effect ought to be something different, my original proposition in a different thread suggested the same passive as Signet of Rage, so it becomes easier and more reliable for the warrior to have stage 3 Healing Surge to hit that true burst healing. However I do not think redundancies are needed, so if you have another idea for it then let me know.

Also, as an additional thought experiment, I want to hear some thoughts about how we can deal with Cleansing Ire should it be nerfed, but still provide an alternative lesser cleansing in a different traitline.

- Maybe a trait for reducing specific condition durations akin to Dogged March in Strength or Arms (conditions like poison or weakness)?
- Maybe a trait that makes physical utility skills burn a condition off you?

Couple of thoughts…haven’t considered whether those two are balanced.

One thing that could tone down Cleansing Ire is having it be affected by Burst Mastery. At the moment, you get all the benefits of cleansing 3 conditions when only using 2 bars of adrenaline and a bigger burst on shorter CD so you cleanse more often. Fixing it so that it will only cleanse 1 condi per bar used would tone down it’s potential and force us to make a choice between offense and defense. It’s not much but I believe it would be enough to bring it back in line.

Julie Yann.5379:

One thing that could tone down Cleansing Ire is having it be affected by Burst Mastery. At the moment, you get all the benefits of cleansing 3 conditions when only using 2 bars of adrenaline and a bigger burst on shorter CD so you cleanse more often. Fixing it so that it will only cleanse 1 condi per bar used would tone down it’s potential and force us to make a choice between offense and defense. It’s not much but I believe it would be enough to bring it back in line.

That is…actually brilliant, I am all for this idea if Burst Mastery negatively affects Cleansing Ire. After all it seems like both would be contrary traits. +1.

Cleansing ire should remove 1 condition maximum whatever the adrenaline.

3 conditions a time on a potential 7 second ability is ludicrously strong. Utilities which do that are on 30 second timers.

phaeris.7604:

Cleansing ire should remove 1 condition maximum whatever the adrenaline.

3 conditions a time on a potential 7 second ability is ludicrously strong. Utilities which do that are on 30 second timers.

Being able to spam several conditions every few seconds is also ludicrously OP. I don’t know anyone who would invest 20 points into defense to get 1 cleanse per burst. It’s not worth 20 points. I would sooner run with lyssa runes and SoS and shake it off.

You mean like..the 20 pnt ability cleaning wave for elementalists, which is 1 condition removed every 10 seconds…

after 2 nerfs on combustive shot and income nerf to pin down you want another nerf for pin down?

Also a nerf to arcing arrow because it does nice damage in zerker stats? why? that’s the best skill to even use longbow in zerker stats, if you nerf arcing arrow base damage it wouldnt be a hybrid weapon anymore and you make the longbow complete trash for zerker warriors, because after arcing arrow you only have AA for pure damage and everyone knows that AA sucks.

All anet is been doing after we got some good sustain is nerfing every weapon and its damage, soon every weapon does average/even low damage but that wouldn’t be enough, nope they nerf the sustain more and we are even worse than before.

I don’t think there is any reason to nerf longbow more, its a solid weapon as it is now and with the incoming nerf to pin down there is also more counter play.

phaeris.7604:

You mean like..the 20 pnt ability cleaning wave for elementalists, which is 1 condition removed every 10 seconds…

Which also cleanses condition on 4 other allies which is a potential total of 5 cleanses every 10 seconds, well worth 20 points. That’s way OP, Anet should nerf it. It actually cleanses more than what Cleansing Ire can but on multiple targets instead of 1.

nicknamenick.2437:

after 2 nerfs on combustive shot and income nerf to pin down you want another nerf for pin down?

Also a nerf to arcing arrow because it does nice damage in zerker stats? why? that’s the best skill to even use longbow in zerker stats, if you nerf arcing arrow base damage it wouldnt be a hybrid weapon anymore and you make the longbow complete trash for zerker warriors, because after arcing arrow you only have AA for pure damage and everyone knows that AA sucks.

All anet is been doing after we got some good sustain is nerfing every weapon and its damage, soon every weapon does average/even low damage but that wouldn’t be enough, nope they nerf the sustain more and we are even worse than before.

I don’t think there is any reason to nerf longbow more, its a solid weapon as it is now and with the incoming nerf to pin down there is also more counter play.

I think it might be just because it does hybrid damage that it absolutely needs to be carefully balanced. It is doing a bit too much even if you go purely condition or power, and it has amazing utility as well. What I should have said was ‘Nerf the base, but provide a better coefficient’.

On the subject of a very visual and longer cast-time for Pin Down, indeed you are correct in stating that there is a major amount of counter-play going to be applied once the patch hits.

However…

Condi-Wars are just a touch too good with conditions, joining the ranks of Condi-bunkers we all know and love endearingly- erm I mean hate and loathe. A stack of bleed is the only thing I can think of ensuring that Pin Down on its own does not continue to reduce someone’s life drastically, since bleed coefficients with condition damage work so well.

…An alternative to my suggestion would be to outright nerf the bleed formula all together. I doubt that will take off too well. As for longbow damage, I think you might be slightly underestimating what a double-attack enables a warrior to attack through. There are some pretty high numbers you can get with it as well when you run power.

zone.1073:

In my opinion as a competitive warrior player, Cleansing Ire needs to be removed.

Cleansing Ire needs to be removed and built into the Adrenaline mechanics of the class with a toned-down version (3 adrenaline for cleansing 2 conditions, etc). When a trait is so powerful that every build feels like it is mandatory, then the trait is problematic when it comes to build diversity.

Kinda the line I was thinking. The issue with making it a GM trait as the OP suggested is that it only hurts build diversity and you end up like rangers (every viable build needing 30 pts in one line). Not to mention it does nothing to hambow as they often take 30 in the line anyway to get the hammer trait (a 20 pt trait).

I definitely don’t think it should be removed as it is a solid trait, the bigger offender is HS not needing healing power. The only sustain similar to it is regen ranger and they drop considerably faster in PVT than Clerics.

I would love ANET to fix hammer F1 issue on slope. EotM as a lot of slope and hammer is kinda awkward to use on the map.

Moving Cleansing Ire to a Grandmaster trait is a terrible idea. It changes nothing besides killing all build diversity for this class. People are going to take this trait no matter where you put it and that is the problem in its self. The condition meta is just way to heavy not to take this trait. Everybody will put 30 into Defense, either by taking away 10 from strength or discipline. That is it.

It clearly needs a total overhaul and redesign, but ultimately it’s problem’s root lies in the condition meta.

Warriors are supposed to be designed to be weak to conditions, but conditions being so heavy it means being the least viable class.

Julie Yann.5379:

phaeris.7604:

You mean like..the 20 pnt ability cleaning wave for elementalists, which is 1 condition removed every 10 seconds…

Which also cleanses condition on 4 other allies which is a potential total of 5 cleanses every 10 seconds, well worth 20 points. That’s way OP, Anet should nerf it. It actually cleanses more than what Cleansing Ire can but on multiple targets instead of 1.

I’d gladly lose the group support for cleansing wave if i could cure 3 conditions on just myself instead. From someone who plays both warrior and ele, cleansing ire is the better skill by a longshot. I’d trade it on my ele in a heartbeat. removing 3 conditions from myself every 7 seconds is more important to me than cleansing 1 condition on 4 allies every 10 seconds considering i spend the majority of my time running solo. while we’re on the topic, i also wish i could trade my master trait, geomancer’s freedom for the adept warrior trait dogged march which is a better version of the skill at a lower tier.

am i the only one who think that warriors should simply do little less damage?
as in compared to glass cannon thief?

warriors have the best armor combined with best HP combined with good self condition removal (third place after guards and eles) and exquisite mobility ( second place after thiefs).

and they also have the best DPS ( as in burst and sustained) in the game.

it is only logical that their damage will be tuned down.

You would think so right?

But apparently it’s ok to have top armour, top health and best mobility/cc immunity/condition clears and be able to put out huge damage as well.

Yet on my ele i’m happy if I can land a 4k hit churning earth every 45 seconds on a class with twice my hitpoints.

Lalangamena.3694:

am i the only one who think that warriors should simply do little less damage?
as in compared to glass cannon thief?

warriors have the best armor combined with best HP combined with good self condition removal (third place after guards and eles) and exquisite mobility ( second place after thiefs).

and they also have the best DPS ( as in burst and sustained) in the game.

it is only logical that their damage will be tuned down.

I think that base warrior damage should be reduced but they should get better offensive traits so that there is actually a reason for them to invest in traits that give damage. If this happens we might even see more build diversity. However, I’m not sure that warriors will invest offensively in the current pvp condition meta.

I don’t understand that since they made different starting stats for warriors, the high health/high armour. How come the ele didn’t get a better base power to compensate.

I don’t get it. The auto attack damage for an ele is worse than a warrior.

Where is the trade off. Range? With multiple gap closers range is nothing in this game.

All other games compensate their mages for being low hp/low armour with high/quick damage at range. This game just doesn’t seem to get that.

[/quote]

I think that base warrior damage should be reduced but they should get better offensive traits so that there is actually a reason for them to invest in traits that give damage. If this happens we might even see more build diversity. However, I’m not sure that warriors will invest offensively in the current pvp condition meta.[/quote]

I’m for this as a general design for all classes. Lower base, higher coefficients. Make a person choose precisely how they want to do damage.

Aerathnor.8305:

I think that base warrior damage should be reduced but they should get better offensive traits so that there is actually a reason for them to invest in traits that give damage. If this happens we might even see more build diversity. However, I’m not sure that warriors will invest offensively in the current pvp condition meta.[/quote]

I’m for this as a general design for all classes. Lower base, higher coefficients. Make a person choose precisely how they want to do damage.[/quote]

Im sorry but did you read the patches so far to see how much warriors damage has been already reduced?

^^
Warrior damage is still pretty high without investing in it and investing in damage is too unrewarding.

DuranArgith.1354:

Aerathnor.8305:

I think that base warrior damage should be reduced but they should get better offensive traits so that there is actually a reason for them to invest in traits that give damage. If this happens we might even see more build diversity. However, I’m not sure that warriors will invest offensively in the current pvp condition meta.

I’m for this as a general design for all classes. Lower base, higher coefficients. Make a person choose precisely how they want to do damage.[/quote]

Im sorry but did you read the patches so far to see how much warriors damage has been already reduced?[/quote]

Not just warriors, more importantly I’m not wanting the class to be nerfed into uselessness. I was saying that I’d prefer base damage across all classes to be low with higher coefficients on skills.

The one thing I like about warrior is the build diversity that is offered, something I would like all classes to mimic. I otherwise don’t much care for the class personally, doesn’t mean I want to kitten all over everyone that does.

I agree, a warrior’s weakness was taking condition damage with less cure options. They have eliminated this with increasing berserker stance duration to 8s(10s with trait) and cleansing ire. This is why many people think that warriors are op. If you remove the weak point of any class, this class will inevitably become op since this game has a rock paper scissors style class balance. I hope they realize they did this wrong, and nerf cleansing ire and berserker stance(to 4s like before). If you are using condition build, warriors are playing god mode with all these condition counters. They don’t even take damage with the extra help of healing signet while spamming stuns 7/24. A nerf is obviously needed for warriors.

Again, I just want to emphasize that although warriors are quite strong in the condition mitigation department right now, as opposed to just flat-nerfing their options now the best course for balancing the profession would be implementing weaker alternatives in other traitlines to keep viable build diversity.

Aka: You want to nerf Cleansing Ire’s effect severely, offer a new kind of condition mitigation in Strength or Arms. Let’s help balance traits to make the warrior in a better state for everyone.

I still contend that what made the warrior OP were the changes that allowed them to not be very susceptible to condition damage.

As an engineer, you can easily kill me with my own damage thru retaliation and I have very little stability and stun breakers. Just lock me down or make me eat my damage.
That is fair. If I were to argue that my grenades that can hit up to 15 targets should NOT be subject to the potential of eating a huge amount of retaliation. . . I would be changing the dynamics of the risk/reward.

For the warrior, your problem was supposed to be eating conditions. You DID have too little to start. You know have TOO Much. I would definitely tone down berserker and cleansing ire. Start with 2 conditions on cleansing ire at full adrenaline. See how it works.

You have a huge HP pool and quite excellent regen with Healing Signet. That should be the primary way you deal with conditions. Umut is right on the money. You SHOULD be weak in condition cleanses. That means you wouldn’t just move around condition mitigation.

- remove adrenalin on hit on cleansing ire
- change http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stick_and_Move to 60% (maybe 30 or 50) remove condition on critical hit (icd 5 seconds)
- rework http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Restorative_Strength to 3 conditions.. always not only these 3 -> with that + mending on shorter cd there are more healing options
- remove regen on dogged march or internal cooldown of 10s
- http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Burst from 10 to 25%
- more usefull traits in arms, maybe uns. foe can removed down again with now nerfed skullcrack
- impale should apply all torment at once removed using rip ( remember rip has a 1.75 dmg coeff)
- http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Furious needs a buff
- strength adept is lacking options, esp for gs users.

-> no passive bunkering hits and adrenalin gatering to spam burst. kiting gets an REAL option as counterplay and cleansing ire looses its mandatory and build diversity rises again

Bombsaway.7198:

I still contend that what made the warrior OP were the changes that allowed them to not be very susceptible to condition damage.

As an engineer, you can easily kill me with my own damage thru retaliation and I have very little stability and stun breakers. Just lock me down or make me eat my damage.
That is fair. If I were to argue that my grenades that can hit up to 15 targets should NOT be subject to the potential of eating a huge amount of retaliation. . . I would be changing the dynamics of the risk/reward.

For the warrior, your problem was supposed to be eating conditions. You DID have too little to start. You know have TOO Much. I would definitely tone down berserker and cleansing ire. Start with 2 conditions on cleansing ire at full adrenaline. See how it works.

You have a huge HP pool and quite excellent regen with Healing Signet. That should be the primary way you deal with conditions. Umut is right on the money. You SHOULD be weak in condition cleanses. That means you wouldn’t just move around condition mitigation.

I’m actually of the opinion that this shouldn’t be the weakness of warriors, mostly because the current meta has pure condition builds being some of the most effective out there, and an almost complete lack of hybrid builds. Changing warriors to be susceptible to conditions would not only crush them horribly in the current meta, but it would also promote more build vs. build gameplay, which is pretty boring.
I would give warriors a different weakness, personally, though I’m not entirely sure what.

Complainers wont be happy until warrior is deleted from the game.

Btw most are rabbit rank in pvp.

Until we get a rework so we have offhand F abilities, then I’ll never been happy!

Completely change the condition meta, or change the warrior philosophy. I believe the Devs were torn between the two, and opted for the easy way out. Which i don’t blame them for.

But at the root of it all it is the condition meta that made warriors the way they are.

Cleansing Ire is a big problem, especially with burst mastery, but I would suggest a different fix:

Warrior burst bar now decreases regardless of whether the attack hits.
Cleansing Ire now only procs on an effective burst attack that hits.
Cleansing Ire no longer gives bonus adrenaline for being hit.
Dogged March now gives might instead of regen.

Problem solved: kill warriors with condis by focusing on avoiding the burst attacks, which are now VERY important. Warriors now need to be smarter about setting up burst attacks to get that cleanse. Adrenal health now gets stronger in comparison because it gives more access to burst skills that are necessary for cleanse.

I also like the idea of having an off-hand burst skill quite a bit (meaning 2 options for 2-handed weapons), although this would take some time to develop.

Sykper.6583:

Axe: Ngh…how many Eviscerates have I hit with 60%+ crit chance and not crit?!

Probably 40%-

They should just move Dogged March up to master so it has to compete with Cleansing Ire. That’s a simpler solution than just nerfing both traits. It SHOULD be a master trait anyway. Eles have a worse version of that trait as a master, it makes no sense warriors get a superior version of it at a lower tier.

BlackBeard.2873:

Cleansing Ire is a big problem, especially with burst mastery, but I would suggest a different fix:

Warrior burst bar now decreases regardless of whether the attack hits.
Cleansing Ire now only procs on an effective burst attack that hits.
Cleansing Ire no longer gives bonus adrenaline for being hit.
Dogged March now gives might instead of regen.

Those are some nice ideas and they might work. Especially the first point makes sense in general when looking at other class mechanics. I got two concerns, though.

• The adrenaline loss on failed hits (1 and 2) will make Hammer and Longbow even more important because it is a lot easier to hit something with the area attacks. It might be counterproductive to weaken certain meta builds but have a strong negative effect on already weaker burst skills. As long as there is no alternative to Cleansing Ire single target or cleave burst skills will be at a huge disadvantage.

• It doesn’t change the synergy between Burst Mastery and Cleansing Ire. Cleansing Ire would need a cooldown to make the combination of those two traits less popular.

Sykper.6583:

Warriors ARE simple to play, but it has been restated again and again and again that they fall off at high-skill play. I want this to change. I want more complicated mechanics, I want warriors to put in just a bit more play to be around the level of a insanely good elementalist or thief.

This is so true, however I feel only decent warriors and really good players on other professions know it. That is the main problem right now, and the reason why this forum is littered with anti-warrior propaganda.

The thing is, there is a huge problem with the game right in order now to change this. The goal is, as you adequatly put, to increase the skill cap for warriors, so that they become harder to play, but also have a better chance vs other classes that know what they are doing. It’s funny that you should mention elementalists and thieves, as most people (including myself) agree that elementalists need buffs and warriors do fine vs thieves (on this I disagree).

Now just look at a simple mechanic like blind. A thief, who can almost literally spam this condition, can nullify every dangerous attack a warrior throws at him except for AoE (which you can simply move out of), as long as the thief has enough skill to do so. A warrior, being a ‘clunky’ class by default, has no such mechanic. Don’t even get me started on the amount of evades or stealth some classes have available in this game.

Thus, as it is now, I see no other way for warriors to be viable other then to have a lot of passive strengths and little active. This subsequently makes them easier to play, but weaker in higher levels of play. In team fights they excel, but that is IMO the only area in the game in which they might be the best. Not OP, but the best.

BlackBeard.2873:

Cleansing Ire is a big problem, especially with burst mastery, but I would suggest a different fix:

Warrior burst bar now decreases regardless of whether the attack hits. 1
Cleansing Ire now only procs on an effective burst attack that hits. 2
Cleansing Ire no longer gives bonus adrenaline for being hit. 3
Dogged March now gives might instead of regen. 4

Problem solved: kill warriors with condis by focusing on avoiding the burst attacks, which are now VERY important. Warriors now need to be smarter about setting up burst attacks to get that cleanse. Adrenal health now gets stronger in comparison because it gives more access to burst skills that are necessary for cleanse.

I also like the idea of having an off-hand burst skill quite a bit (meaning 2 options for 2-handed weapons), although this would take some time to develop.

Some of the things you are proposing here are extremely overnerfing IMO.

1 Losing all adrenaline if the attack does not connect? With all the blinds/blocks/aegis/stealth/evades going around? It is already hard to land half your burst attacks against a half decent player, this will completely destroy warriors.

2 The trait already works that way… Only Longbow functions differently, as it should, because it is AoE.

3 I don’t understand the reason for this suggestion, but it is indeed a significant nerf. So you want to deplete adrenaline even is the warrior does not land the attack, and remove the adrenaline regenerating function of Cleansing Ire all in one? This is not a nerfbat, this is a nerfchainsaw.

4 Dogged March is in the defense traitline, regen makes a lot more sense. The unfairness in all of this is that everybody is promoting conditions should be the warriors weakness again… Like that ever stopped being the case. Note I am not talking about damaging conditions, but soft CC. A class with a bit of condition duration and a plethora of blinds, cripples and chills will /laugh at you. So, if anything, swiftness would make more sense then might. But actually, I’d make a case for vigor. This increases skillful play more then passive regen, or might for that matter.

A second burst skill does sound like fun, although it would require serious rebalancing. Just giving the warrior an extra option warrants nerfing all other burst skills.

@Cygnus:

Pretty much the nail on the head of a skritt, Warriors have probably the top amount of passive strengths in order to somewhat compete with all the active mechanics of other professions. Things like Stealth, Blinks, Clones, Traps, Pets, etc. are out of reach, and the only real unique feature I can think of when I say ‘Warrior unique mechanic’ are banners and stances.

Though, I must add that I was not saying that elementalists or thieves beat warriors, I was saying that the level of play between those two professions and warriors is vastly different, and actually elementalists if I go so far to say are at a higher play level than thieves if you consider the difference between maintaining cooldowns on four different attunements versus initiative management…though that could be debated.

Sykper.6583:

Posting some more!

Axe: Ngh…how many Eviscerates have I hit with 60%+ crit chance and not crit?! Mechanically balanced, but there should be some way for a warrior to have his burst skills crit 100% of the time on a Cooldown, make some skillful play. I know! Make it a Grandmaster Trait in Strength or Arms! That’s an idea, give me some feedback on this.

I’d like to see a change coming up giving 100% crit chance to eviscerate. But in cost of damage, increased damage caused by the amount of precision, crit damage and power.