Guild Wars 2

I have succumbed. I switched my thief to a stealth thief. I feel so dirty. But Anets bad design/balancing has forced me to do it.

/fifteencharslolz

side note… it amazes me, that after all this time (how long has the game been out for? – some make claims that this issue was since or even pre-launch….), people haven’t either given up on the hope of some change or haven’t found a way to deal with it…. I really hope it’s “new” people that start the game, and not the same old ones….

Carighan.6758:

• The stealther themselves. When they attack, they de-cloak.

Not technically. They have to land an ability that does damage for stealth to be removed. Otherwise they can spam whatever they want in stealth and not have it drop.

Just this weekend I had to play a game that literally felt like Battleship to find a Thief who I downed within a Shadow Refuge. I just did concentric circles until I saw the 2nd attack in my dagger chain, then stopped and started up again from the point where I saw the 2nd attack until I zeroed in on the Thief. I think at that point he used his downed #2 and I had to start the process over again when I started missing.

Eventually he appeared and I killed him, but it was the dumbest downed state encounter I’ve seen through to a kill. Hands down.

If all they did was apply Revealed to a class who is in Stealth upon them being downed, even just 1 second of it while they are invulnerable, I would actually feel a lot better about a lot of things re: Stealth. But I would wager that someone is going to say that would break Thieves irreparably, or take a lot of the skill out of the class with regard to using SR when you’re about to go down or something.

Johje Holan.4607:

I have succumbed. I switched my thief to a stealth thief. I feel so dirty. But Anets bad design/balancing has forced me to do it.

Good. Maybe you’ll learn something.

Zacchary.6183:

Stealth becomes extremely powerful against players when said players rely on their skills more than their skill.

Seems like an odd thing to say when a thief, for example, has multiple skills that give them instant stealth. Particularly in the context of thieves that rely on stealth.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Zacchary.6183:

Stealth becomes extremely powerful against players when said players rely on their skills more than their skill.

Seems like an odd thing to say when a thief, for example, has multiple skills that give them instant stealth. Particularly in the context of thieves that rely on stealth.

It is odd that after 2 years the same players have not learned anything from their experiences with thieves. Using 1 out of 3 survival mechanics on a profession that allows it isn’t odd.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Zacchary.6183:

Stealth becomes extremely powerful against players when said players rely on their skills more than their skill.

Seems like an odd thing to say when a thief, for example, has multiple skills that give them instant stealth. Particularly in the context of thieves that rely on stealth.

Wait… Blinding powder and ?

Carighan.6758:

Terrahero.9358:

But how is AoE a counter to stealth?

Is AoE more effective against someone in stealth then, lets say, someone who is visible? No, your AoE is less effective against someone in stealth because its much harder to land an ability on someone or something you cannot stealth.

So, if anything, Stealth is a counter to AoE. Not the other way around.

If you define counter by genuinely blocking/ending the stealth, then there’s few counters, but one of them is rather big:

• Ranger Sic’em
• De-stealth traps.
• De-stealth Arrow Cart shot.
• The stealther themselves. When they attack, they de-cloak.

I dont consider any of those a counter.

Sic ’em prevents the use of stealth, does nothing when Stealth has been used already. If we count this, then we should consider every daze/stun/launch a counter to stealth aswell.
A counter to everything. Instead of what it is, a mechanic to disable a target either fully or partially. Sic ’em is just a weak Daze in that respect.

Stealth trap and Arrowcart mastery are not reasonable either. Its completely disproportional cost. Neither of these are going to play any part in a fight. They are a counter in the most technical terms, but practically speaking they might aswell not exist.
That and its limited to WvW exclusive, means nothing for pve or pvp.

And the last one has got to be a joke, you silly person :P

I will agree with it the day i’ll see a counter to any single class in this game. Till that day every single complain like that is just a useless cry, maybe from the same people that use hambow, pu mesmers, perplex engis, guardianspamming1inblobs etc etc etc.

And the funny thing is that none try to say “well we can trade this with that”. No, just “i wanna the revelaed buff for 10 minutes, no escapes, no crits, slowed, no ini regen so i can landing 11111 and kill the thief and get my lootbag”.

First most important thing about balance is…balance. And this forum is full of nothing but nerfcries.

Terrahero.9358:

And the last one has got to be a joke, you silly person :P

Well, in a way.
Long-term stealth like in WoW is used to force initiative. The idea is to always be the one to pick the fight (in return you’re weaker, so you’re forced to pick a favourable context where your victory is guaranteed – easiest example is when the target is distracted).

Stealth in GW2 feels more like a defence. It’s on two rather fragile classes (well, Mesmer more because Clones don’t fulfil their originally heralded function of confusing players since thy’re blindingly obvious), and it’s used to break target lock and force the attacker(s) to fall back to using non-targeted attacks to continue the assault.

As such, what would it’s “counter” be, other than simply attacking?
To turn the question around, how do you counter death? By not dying in the first place, correct. There’s no rezz from dead, either, only from downed. If our rezz skills worked on dead targets the whole dead-thing would lose all meaning (see: Keep Lords, which is just silly).

Stealth might be problematic in balance but mostly because it can be obtained as a combo field (and quite frequently so). Like with conditions and boons, it’s a case of being too weak but way too common.

In itself, having a “counter” would be illogical however. The point is that there isn’t a “oh my target stealthed”-button on every player’s hotbar. If there were, there’d be very little reason to stealth in the first place. Unless this costs a hotbar slot, and then players wouldn’t equip it, and still complain (see: Vitality vs Conditions).

1) Glass cannon builds are not viable period. Any somewhat tanky build pretty much beats any glass build for any class. Thief is simply better at killing other non-viable builds.
2) For those saying AoE is not a counter: The point isn’t really that AoE is a counter for stealth; it’s that glass thieves are hard countered by “anything that does damage”, and stealth does not mitigate AoE.
3) Glass staff eles are great for zerg fights.

Stealth is a bit weird in this game in that it has very little in the way of counters whilst being incredibly facilitative for the user. The fact that you cannot be Revealed unless you land damage on a target, makes attacks from stealth very accommodating of mistakes, removing much of the risk that one would expect from high stealth up time.

Alas, this is simply the GW2 way and it’s better to just deal with it then hope that anything will change for the better. General cleave/AoE spam and prediction of stealthed opponent movement can keep the pressure up, but this requires the Thief/Mesmer to play rather stupidly whilst in stealth so there is a limitation to this. Being able to counter Shadow Refuge is a game changer as most Thieves just do not know how to recover when being knocked out. PU Mesmers can be forced to a CD wall with their stealth abilities, although a PU Mesmer that is not easily spooked will not succumb to this. I suppose there’s always Sic ’Em for poor Rangers.

The problems with stealth:
- its an offensive ability
- its a defensive ability
- its an escape ability
- its an engage ability
- spammable, not just a one trick pony
- you can trait it for extras

To those who argue that stealth needs a counter and that AE is not a true counter. . .

Stealth by itself does no damage. Stealth does allow for a big hit.

That big hit is easily counterable IF you have any idea it is coming OR there are a lot of “recovery counters” thereafter.

AE most certainly is a counter not to stealth but to the idea of the thief being able to simply avoid damage in stealth or heal in stealth.

The thief has a lot of ability to disengage when a fight is going poorly. They can keep resetting a fight until you make a mistake and die. If anything, I would allow a ranger to “see feet” or know where the thief is heading generally even if the thief would not be revealed. That would allow you to focus some ae.

The only consistent way to keep the thief from disengaging is what I call CC overload. That is you simply throw so many conditions on them that the thief can’t clear them all while in stealth save SR which you can just push them out of. That works for classes like the engie that has a huge amount of AE delivered conditions and not so well for say a ranger.

balance stealth? XDDDDDD

Good one bro… You know what game you’re playing?

Carighan.6758:

Terrahero.9358:

And the last one has got to be a joke, you silly person :P

Well, in a way.
Long-term stealth like in WoW is used to force initiative. The idea is to always be the one to pick the fight (in return you’re weaker, so you’re forced to pick a favourable context where your victory is guaranteed – easiest example is when the target is distracted).

Stealth in GW2 feels more like a defence. It’s on two rather fragile classes (well, Mesmer more because Clones don’t fulfil their originally heralded function of confusing players since thy’re blindingly obvious), and it’s used to break target lock and force the attacker(s) to fall back to using non-targeted attacks to continue the assault.

As such, what would it’s “counter” be, other than simply attacking?
To turn the question around, how do you counter death? By not dying in the first place, correct. There’s no rezz from dead, either, only from downed. If our rezz skills worked on dead targets the whole dead-thing would lose all meaning (see: Keep Lords, which is just silly).

Stealth might be problematic in balance but mostly because it can be obtained as a combo field (and quite frequently so). Like with conditions and boons, it’s a case of being too weak but way too common.

In itself, having a “counter” would be illogical however. The point is that there isn’t a “oh my target stealthed”-button on every player’s hotbar. If there were, there’d be very little reason to stealth in the first place. Unless this costs a hotbar slot, and then players wouldn’t equip it, and still complain (see: Vitality vs Conditions).

Nicely put.

Stealth isn’t OP. It’s the accessibility of it. Nerfing stealth just removes viable builds like D/D into more frustrating ones like D/P due to the fact that D/P thieves also have blind fields to work with, too.

Blind/smoke field access is honestly what makes thieves so strong against non-ranged classes. I occasionally run a really trolly bunker thief spec in sPvP. It’s a full healing power P/P thief which effectively attritions people to death so hard that until they get reinforcements or the capacity to ignore spamming blind fields, it is unkillable. Why? Because I make you miss 100% of your attacks and hit you for 100-200 damage attacks which whittle you down for 15 minutes and eventually run you dry without either running away and resetting or you getting your friends.

And this build is literally just me pressing 5. I don’t even have to try or even play well, and I’ve been kicked from a ton of dueling servers because the build is just so infuriating to play against.

It’s not stealth, but the access to smoke fields and what ANet made absolutely ridiculous blind durations that make these builds so hard to out-play.

DeceiverX.8361:

Carighan.6758:

Terrahero.9358:

And the last one has got to be a joke, you silly person :P

Well, in a way.
Long-term stealth like in WoW is used to force initiative. The idea is to always be the one to pick the fight (in return you’re weaker, so you’re forced to pick a favourable context where your victory is guaranteed – easiest example is when the target is distracted).

Stealth in GW2 feels more like a defence. It’s on two rather fragile classes (well, Mesmer more because Clones don’t fulfil their originally heralded function of confusing players since thy’re blindingly obvious), and it’s used to break target lock and force the attacker(s) to fall back to using non-targeted attacks to continue the assault.

As such, what would it’s “counter” be, other than simply attacking?
To turn the question around, how do you counter death? By not dying in the first place, correct. There’s no rezz from dead, either, only from downed. If our rezz skills worked on dead targets the whole dead-thing would lose all meaning (see: Keep Lords, which is just silly).

Stealth might be problematic in balance but mostly because it can be obtained as a combo field (and quite frequently so). Like with conditions and boons, it’s a case of being too weak but way too common.

In itself, having a “counter” would be illogical however. The point is that there isn’t a “oh my target stealthed”-button on every player’s hotbar. If there were, there’d be very little reason to stealth in the first place. Unless this costs a hotbar slot, and then players wouldn’t equip it, and still complain (see: Vitality vs Conditions).

Nicely put.

Stealth isn’t OP. It’s the accessibility of it. Nerfing stealth just removes viable builds like D/D into more frustrating ones like D/P due to the fact that D/P thieves also have blind fields to work with, too.

Blind/smoke field access is honestly what makes thieves so strong against non-ranged classes. I occasionally run a really trolly bunker thief spec in sPvP. It’s a full healing power P/P thief which effectively attritions people to death so hard that until they get reinforcements or the capacity to ignore spamming blind fields, it is unkillable. Why? Because I make you miss 100% of your attacks and hit you for 100-200 damage attacks which whittle you down for 15 minutes and eventually run you dry without either running away and resetting or you getting your friends.

And this build is literally just me pressing 5. I don’t even have to try or even play well, and I’ve been kicked from a ton of dueling servers because the build is just so infuriating to play against.

It’s not stealth, but the access to smoke fields and what ANet made absolutely ridiculous blind durations that make these builds so hard to out-play.

For anyone that thinks black powder is OP, you should try kiting around it to see just how much damage you can deal while making a thief waste initiative.

Shockwave.1230:

DeceiverX.8361:

Carighan.6758:

Terrahero.9358:

And the last one has got to be a joke, you silly person :P

Well, in a way.
Long-term stealth like in WoW is used to force initiative. The idea is to always be the one to pick the fight (in return you’re weaker, so you’re forced to pick a favourable context where your victory is guaranteed – easiest example is when the target is distracted).

Stealth in GW2 feels more like a defence. It’s on two rather fragile classes (well, Mesmer more because Clones don’t fulfil their originally heralded function of confusing players since thy’re blindingly obvious), and it’s used to break target lock and force the attacker(s) to fall back to using non-targeted attacks to continue the assault.

As such, what would it’s “counter” be, other than simply attacking?
To turn the question around, how do you counter death? By not dying in the first place, correct. There’s no rezz from dead, either, only from downed. If our rezz skills worked on dead targets the whole dead-thing would lose all meaning (see: Keep Lords, which is just silly).

Stealth might be problematic in balance but mostly because it can be obtained as a combo field (and quite frequently so). Like with conditions and boons, it’s a case of being too weak but way too common.

In itself, having a “counter” would be illogical however. The point is that there isn’t a “oh my target stealthed”-button on every player’s hotbar. If there were, there’d be very little reason to stealth in the first place. Unless this costs a hotbar slot, and then players wouldn’t equip it, and still complain (see: Vitality vs Conditions).

Nicely put.

Stealth isn’t OP. It’s the accessibility of it. Nerfing stealth just removes viable builds like D/D into more frustrating ones like D/P due to the fact that D/P thieves also have blind fields to work with, too.

Blind/smoke field access is honestly what makes thieves so strong against non-ranged classes. I occasionally run a really trolly bunker thief spec in sPvP. It’s a full healing power P/P thief which effectively attritions people to death so hard that until they get reinforcements or the capacity to ignore spamming blind fields, it is unkillable. Why? Because I make you miss 100% of your attacks and hit you for 100-200 damage attacks which whittle you down for 15 minutes and eventually run you dry without either running away and resetting or you getting your friends.

And this build is literally just me pressing 5. I don’t even have to try or even play well, and I’ve been kicked from a ton of dueling servers because the build is just so infuriating to play against.

It’s not stealth, but the access to smoke fields and what ANet made absolutely ridiculous blind durations that make these builds so hard to out-play.

For anyone that thinks black powder is OP, you should try kiting around it to see just how much damage you can deal while making a thief waste initiative.

Yes and any thief with a brain won’t stand in the smoke field – he will be gone before you can hit in melee by heartseeker.

Carighan.6758:

Terrahero.9358:

And the last one has got to be a joke, you silly person :P

Well, in a way.
Long-term stealth like in WoW is used to force initiative. The idea is to always be the one to pick the fight (in return you’re weaker, so you’re forced to pick a favourable context where your victory is guaranteed – easiest example is when the target is distracted).

Stealth in GW2 feels more like a defence. It’s on two rather fragile classes (well, Mesmer more because Clones don’t fulfil their originally heralded function of confusing players since thy’re blindingly obvious), and it’s used to break target lock and force the attacker(s) to fall back to using non-targeted attacks to continue the assault.

As such, what would it’s “counter” be, other than simply attacking?
To turn the question around, how do you counter death? By not dying in the first place, correct. There’s no rezz from dead, either, only from downed. If our rezz skills worked on dead targets the whole dead-thing would lose all meaning (see: Keep Lords, which is just silly).

Stealth might be problematic in balance but mostly because it can be obtained as a combo field (and quite frequently so). Like with conditions and boons, it’s a case of being too weak but way too common.

In itself, having a “counter” would be illogical however. The point is that there isn’t a “oh my target stealthed”-button on every player’s hotbar. If there were, there’d be very little reason to stealth in the first place. Unless this costs a hotbar slot, and then players wouldn’t equip it, and still complain (see: Vitality vs Conditions).

Strangely enough, wow players never EVER complained about how stealth was op, nor UP! EVER! Why? Because it has COUNTERS!
1. http://www.wowwiki.com/Flare . “It reveals any stealthed units within 10 yards for 20 seconds”
2. If you get hit by aoe, you are automatically revealed.
3. Any cc will remove stealth.
4. If you get closer to someone, he will be able to target you.
5. Stealth can only be used out of combat, or you’ll have to waste a 2 MIN cd (vanish) *it can be used twice if you use preparation (5min cd)
6. My favorite one: DOTS freaking break it
7. Any druids can apply a spammable debuff which prevent you to stealth.

In this game, stealth is actually BALANCED.
God, makes me want to go back in wow to play some RLS… This game was actually balanced if you forget all those silly gear requirements.

Why gw2 can’t do that? Why do we have to deal with something that is not even stealth, but more of an invisiblity with 0.5 counter? Poor design, that’s why.

Two very different games. Thieves don’t stunlock in gw2 (unless you’re bad and you let a pistol whip thief do it) or remove all your opponents weapons or get free poision additives to their weapons etc. etc.

If you want that stuff then wow has it.

Aberrant.6749:

Two very different games. Thieves don’t stunlock in gw2 (unless you’re bad and you let a pistol whip thief do it) or remove all your opponents weapons or get free poision additives to their weapons etc. etc.

If you want that stuff then wow has it.

Wasn’t my point. Not talking about thieves or rogue here. Doesn’t matter if those 2 games are different. I was talking about counters. Currently, it has none. (unless you count sic em which only count for 0.5 as it only prevents stealth). Also, I’m sorry for wishing gw2 would force intelligent choices in regards to when to use stealth like in wow…

McWolfy.5924:

The problems with stealth:
- its an offensive ability
- its a defensive ability
- its an escape ability
- its an engage ability
- spammable, not just a one trick pony
- you can trait it for extras

this.

im a wvw player.
the frequent (endless) access in a non objective orientated environment is beyond ridiculous.
i understand its a core component of the class but its availability needs to be looked at for the reasons listed by McWolfy.

fix yo sheet anet.

Poplolita.2638:

Strangely enough, wow players never EVER complained about how stealth was op, nor UP! EVER! Why? Because it has COUNTERS!

I’m sorry, but… hahahahahahaahaha.

Really?

I mean, really?

Did you think none of us actually played WoW, so we wouldn’t notice?

WoW players never complained about stealth. I’ve heard worse, but honestly, not by much.

Stealth-complaints are a constant of WoW class balance “troubles”. Either it’s UP, OP, useless or has to be nerfed. And every time they change it for PvP reasons they break it in some bug-based way in PvE, then hastily change it back going back to PvP-imbalance instead.

Though that’s ignoring the part where it’s not comparable. GW2 stealth is more like a short-term immunity (due to the target lock), WoW has stealth meant to force initiative.

Poplolita.2638:

Aberrant.6749:

Two very different games. Thieves don’t stunlock in gw2 (unless you’re bad and you let a pistol whip thief do it) or remove all your opponents weapons or get free poision additives to their weapons etc. etc.

If you want that stuff then wow has it.

Wasn’t my point. Not talking about thieves or rogue here. Doesn’t matter if those 2 games are different. I was talking about counters. Currently, it has none. (unless you count sic em which only count for 0.5 as it only prevents stealth). Also, I’m sorry for wishing gw2 would force intelligent choices in regards to when to use stealth like in wow…

Yea lets just ignore that what you said before wasn’t accurate. Fine with me.

There is only one stealth that thieves have that can not be stopped (blinding powder). You can counter the rest. Even if they do stealth you can make it so they pay for it when they try to strike from stealth. These aren’t as obvious counters as a direct anti-stealth, and different classes have this to different extents, but they work (eng’s nom thieves without revealing them through a skill because of these types of things). I don’t see any problems with this.

Carighan.6758:

Terrahero.9358:

And the last one has got to be a joke, you silly person :P

Well, in a way.
Long-term stealth like in WoW is used to force initiative. The idea is to always be the one to pick the fight (in return you’re weaker, so you’re forced to pick a favourable context where your victory is guaranteed – easiest example is when the target is distracted).

Stealth in GW2 feels more like a defence. It’s on two rather fragile classes (well, Mesmer more because Clones don’t fulfil their originally heralded function of confusing players since thy’re blindingly obvious), and it’s used to break target lock and force the attacker(s) to fall back to using non-targeted attacks to continue the assault.

As such, what would it’s “counter” be, other than simply attacking?
To turn the question around, how do you counter death? By not dying in the first place, correct. There’s no rezz from dead, either, only from downed. If our rezz skills worked on dead targets the whole dead-thing would lose all meaning (see: Keep Lords, which is just silly).

Stealth might be problematic in balance but mostly because it can be obtained as a combo field (and quite frequently so). Like with conditions and boons, it’s a case of being too weak but way too common.

In itself, having a “counter” would be illogical however. The point is that there isn’t a “oh my target stealthed”-button on every player’s hotbar. If there were, there’d be very little reason to stealth in the first place. Unless this costs a hotbar slot, and then players wouldn’t equip it, and still complain (see: Vitality vs Conditions).

No. A player purposely dropping Stealth by attacking is not a counter. “allow me to get suckerpunched, so you lose stealth.. Ha! fool!” No… just, no….

Stealth is a powerful mechanic thats quite widespread available, it would make sense to have a counter.
You present it as if everyone is going to run stealth counters, thats rather simplistic and a wild exaggeration. Not everyone runs condition removal, or stun breaker. Why? Because it costs a utility slot, and those are limited.

Abilities that counter stealth come with a significant oppertunity cost, but thats a choice the player can make. Replace a stunbreaker for a stealthbreaker? Worth it? Maybe yes, maybe no.
If stealth isnt such a big deal everyone will ignore any stealthcounters theyd potentially could get. If stealth is a big deal, players can now build against it.

And if such mechanics are introduced for under-used skills and/or under-employed professions, they could get a purpose aswell. As their value is lifted.

Terrahero.9358:

Abilities that counter stealth come with a significant oppertunity cost, but thats a choice the player can make. Replace a stunbreaker for a stealthbreaker? Worth it? Maybe yes, maybe no.

While true, can you imagine the outrage if ANet would implement it like that?

I know this doesn’t entirely address your problems OP, but nevertheless:

Erebos.6741:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Allow-Stomping-while-other-guy-is-Stealthed/first

ArenaNet’s response towards the bottom of the first page.

Aberrant.6749:

Poplolita.2638:

Aberrant.6749:

Two very different games. Thieves don’t stunlock in gw2 (unless you’re bad and you let a pistol whip thief do it) or remove all your opponents weapons or get free poision additives to their weapons etc. etc.

If you want that stuff then wow has it.

Wasn’t my point. Not talking about thieves or rogue here. Doesn’t matter if those 2 games are different. I was talking about counters. Currently, it has none. (unless you count sic em which only count for 0.5 as it only prevents stealth). Also, I’m sorry for wishing gw2 would force intelligent choices in regards to when to use stealth like in wow…

Yea lets just ignore that what you said before wasn’t accurate. Fine with me.

There is only one stealth that thieves have that can not be stopped (blinding powder). You can counter the rest. Even if they do stealth you can make it so they pay for it when they try to strike from stealth. These aren’t as obvious counters as a direct anti-stealth, and different classes have this to different extents, but they work (eng’s nom thieves without revealing them through a skill because of these types of things). I don’t see any problems with this.

Not counters.

Carighan.6758:

Poplolita.2638:

Strangely enough, wow players never EVER complained about how stealth was op, nor UP! EVER! Why? Because it has COUNTERS!

I’m sorry, but… hahahahahahaahaha.

Really?

I mean, really?

Did you think none of us actually played WoW, so we wouldn’t notice?

WoW players never complained about stealth. I’ve heard worse, but honestly, not by much.

Stealth-complaints are a constant of WoW class balance “troubles”. Either it’s UP, OP, useless or has to be nerfed. And every time they change it for PvP reasons they break it in some bug-based way in PvE, then hastily change it back going back to PvP-imbalance instead.

Though that’s ignoring the part where it’s not comparable. GW2 stealth is more like a short-term immunity (due to the target lock), WoW has stealth meant to force initiative.

Did not compare them, was merely highlighting the fact that wow got it right, gw2 didn’t for the simple reason that one added counters, and the latter didn’t. Also, no, stealth was so rarely complained about. The huge amount of complaints mainly comes from the huge amount of cc wow has, and pve gear in arena (Legendary rogue in cata, pve tricket like cunning of the cruel etc etc) . But that’s up for another discussion. Anyway, I doubt you even got gladiotor/or even read/allowed to post in arenajunkies to even come up with such a silly response.

Cogbyrn.7283:

If all they did was apply Revealed to a class who is in Stealth upon them being downed, even just 1 second of it while they are invulnerable, I would actually feel a lot better about a lot of things re: Stealth. But I would wager that someone is going to say that would break Thieves irreparably, or take a lot of the skill out of the class with regard to using SR when you’re about to go down or something.

Downed state is intended to delay defeat so that players have a chance to rally, it’s not supposed to lead to a guaranteed stomp and game mechanics do not have not be changed because something annoys you.

frans.8092:

game mechanics do not have not be changed because something annoys you.

And what do you think better incentives change? This is supposed to be entertainment after-all.

Granted though; people rarely know what they want.

frans.8092:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If all they did was apply Revealed to a class who is in Stealth upon them being downed, even just 1 second of it while they are invulnerable, I would actually feel a lot better about a lot of things re: Stealth. But I would wager that someone is going to say that would break Thieves irreparably, or take a lot of the skill out of the class with regard to using SR when you’re about to go down or something.

Downed state is intended to delay defeat so that players have a chance to rally, it’s not supposed to lead to a guaranteed stomp and game mechanics do not have not be changed because something annoys you.

Nothing has to be changed for any one person. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t give our feedback based on our experience/perception to help ANet make the most informed, data-driven decision they can.

If it turns out everyone else loves how a Thief going down in SR is a auto-attack guessing game for 15+ seconds, that’s fine. I’ll deal with it. However, I think it’s both completely silly, and bad game design. If I wanted to play Battleship, I’ll go play Battleship.

Poplolita.2638:

Not counters.

not hard counters but counter plays… counter plays that work exceptionally well against various stealth builds. adding into the game hard counters for stealth seems a little overkill to me.

I could sit here and describe the ways i’ve personally been countered by players on all the different classes, how they played, what they did, what to look out for, etc. or how i handle stealth builds on my other classes… but i’m not going to. judging by the previous posts…. that seems like a waste of time.

Instead, let me ask all the people here that seem to think stealth is OP. What exactly are you looking for when fighting a stealth based player ideally. A head to head fight with someone that has lower HP, little armor, lower damage co-efficients on attacks, and can use much less quantity of skills on average? Or just something in the middle to make it “fair” for you while at the same time allowing players that already know how to counterplay stealth builds to completely faceroll them instead?

Poplolita.2638:

Aberrant.6749:

Poplolita.2638:

Aberrant.6749:

Two very different games. Thieves don’t stunlock in gw2 (unless you’re bad and you let a pistol whip thief do it) or remove all your opponents weapons or get free poision additives to their weapons etc. etc.

If you want that stuff then wow has it.

Wasn’t my point. Not talking about thieves or rogue here. Doesn’t matter if those 2 games are different. I was talking about counters. Currently, it has none. (unless you count sic em which only count for 0.5 as it only prevents stealth). Also, I’m sorry for wishing gw2 would force intelligent choices in regards to when to use stealth like in wow…

Yea lets just ignore that what you said before wasn’t accurate. Fine with me.

There is only one stealth that thieves have that can not be stopped (blinding powder). You can counter the rest. Even if they do stealth you can make it so they pay for it when they try to strike from stealth. These aren’t as obvious counters as a direct anti-stealth, and different classes have this to different extents, but they work (eng’s nom thieves without revealing them through a skill because of these types of things). I don’t see any problems with this.

Not counters.

Yes they are. You’re able to counter their ability to enter stealth or capitalize on their stealth. It’s not push 1 button then gg though (which seems to be what many in this thread are looking for). L2P issue it seems.

Aberrant.6749:

Poplolita.2638:

Aberrant.6749:

Poplolita.2638:

Aberrant.6749:

Two very different games. Thieves don’t stunlock in gw2 (unless you’re bad and you let a pistol whip thief do it) or remove all your opponents weapons or get free poision additives to their weapons etc. etc.

If you want that stuff then wow has it.

Wasn’t my point. Not talking about thieves or rogue here. Doesn’t matter if those 2 games are different. I was talking about counters. Currently, it has none. (unless you count sic em which only count for 0.5 as it only prevents stealth). Also, I’m sorry for wishing gw2 would force intelligent choices in regards to when to use stealth like in wow…

Yea lets just ignore that what you said before wasn’t accurate. Fine with me.

There is only one stealth that thieves have that can not be stopped (blinding powder). You can counter the rest. Even if they do stealth you can make it so they pay for it when they try to strike from stealth. These aren’t as obvious counters as a direct anti-stealth, and different classes have this to different extents, but they work (eng’s nom thieves without revealing them through a skill because of these types of things). I don’t see any problems with this.

Not counters.

Yes they are. You’re able to counter their ability to enter stealth or capitalize on their stealth. It’s not push 1 button then gg though (which seems to be what many in this thread are looking for). L2P issue it seems.

I’m sorry but do you know what “counter” is? A counter isn’t just reducing their access to stealth… Take corrupt boon for instance, that’s a direct counter to boon spam. If you want to consider what you posted earlier “a counter”, I might as well tell you that doing 33% more dps when someone pops protection is a counter.

Are you even aware that I could also use these so called “counters” which are actually pre-emptive actions against other professions with no access to stealth as well?

Come back to earth, and face the reality. No matter what you think, stealth is the only mechanic in the game with no hard counters. This is poor design on anet part. It’s crazy how it’s even up to discussion at this point

Aberrant.6749:

L2P issue it seems.

You can keep using logical fallacies in your argument, I’m sure it will help you get your point accross.

Emi.4152:

Poplolita.2638:

Not counters.

not hard counters but counter plays… counter plays that work exceptionally well against various stealth builds. adding into the game hard counters for stealth seems a little overkill to me.

I could sit here and describe the ways i’ve personally been countered by players on all the different classes, how they played, what they did, what to look out for, etc. or how i handle stealth builds on my other classes… but i’m not going to. judging by the previous posts…. that seems like a waste of time.

Instead, let me ask all the people here that seem to think stealth is OP. What exactly are you looking for when fighting a stealth based player ideally. A head to head fight with someone that has lower HP, little armor, lower damage co-efficients on attacks, and can use much less quantity of skills on average? Or just something in the middle to make it “fair” for you while at the same time allowing players that already know how to counterplay stealth builds to completely faceroll them instead?

I would like to point out I have no problem against thieves, and that I rarely lose against them whenever I face them 1v1 in tpvp, they don’t even use stealth that much (talking about s/d thief). Also, getting outplayed has nothing to do with counters. I’m talking about counter from a mechanical perspective.

As long as there are MMO’s, there will be people who will complain that one class or another is OP. It is sadly the nature of the genre. My theory is that every class, every build has a weakness that can be exploited. The trick is to find out what it is. As someone who also plays a P/D “stealth” thief, it’s pretty easy to kill me. A warrior friend of mine does it every time I see him… /sadface.

Oh, an engi friend of mines also owns me…

.. and this mesmer I know..

The thing about this class and someone who’s good at timing their stealth is that you can really troll a huge group of folks determined to kill the thief. It is sometimes sad how easy it is to draw half a zerg away. My goal isn’t to kill anyone in that group, just get them to waste time chasing me. In that case, my team wins.

Poplolita.2638:

Emi.4152:

Poplolita.2638:

Not counters.

not hard counters but counter plays… counter plays that work exceptionally well against various stealth builds. adding into the game hard counters for stealth seems a little overkill to me.

I could sit here and describe the ways i’ve personally been countered by players on all the different classes, how they played, what they did, what to look out for, etc. or how i handle stealth builds on my other classes… but i’m not going to. judging by the previous posts…. that seems like a waste of time.

Instead, let me ask all the people here that seem to think stealth is OP. What exactly are you looking for when fighting a stealth based player ideally. A head to head fight with someone that has lower HP, little armor, lower damage co-efficients on attacks, and can use much less quantity of skills on average? Or just something in the middle to make it “fair” for you while at the same time allowing players that already know how to counterplay stealth builds to completely faceroll them instead?

I would like to point out I have no problem against thieves, and that I rarely lose against them whenever I face them 1v1 in tpvp, they don’t even use stealth that much (talking about s/d thief). Also, getting outplayed has nothing to do with counters. I’m talking about counter from a mechanical perspective.

Why would you call for a weakening of a class that you already rarely lose to? There are soft counters to thieves’ stealth already: interrupting/dodging weapon stealth, knocking out of SR. In fact the only 2 that can’t be soft countered (except maybe for a lucky sic ’em) are blinding powder and traited steal. If someone misses these, all they have to do is wait 3 or 4 seconds (except against SR) and they can once again target the thief.

One argument that I see a lot is that blocking a stealth attack should reveal the thief because it required skill to do, yet these same people could have blocked/interrupted the thief, denying them stealth in the first place. I don’t see why the player should be rewarded with a second chance after failing the counterplay the first time, just wait out the time instead.

When I play Thief, I’m surprised how often stealth fails to break aggro or protect from attacks. Most of the people who complain about a class, don’t play that class. ( and yes.. I have an 80 in every class )

Stealth has numerous counters in the form of various AoE’s and cleaves. Stealth attacks have various counters in the form of personal defenses.

You can track stealthed players various ways, such as auto attack chains or using a channel skill before they enter stealth.

You can identify when a stealthed player is near you via blocks/invulnerability skills, such as Aegis, Shield Stance, Illusionary Riposte, distortion, obsidian flesh, renewed focus, etc.

If you are trying to play a slow fight vs a thief or mesmer and running out of cooldowns, then you are usually fighting them wrong. In most situaitons you need to be aggressive vs these classes, because these classes have to be aggressive in order to be viable.

Stealth is not OP, it’s not invincibility, you just need to learn to play agressive vs a thief and mesmer.

Supreme.4051:

Shockwave.1230:

DeceiverX.8361:

Nicely put.

Stealth isn’t OP. It’s the accessibility of it. Nerfing stealth just removes viable builds like D/D into more frustrating ones like D/P due to the fact that D/P thieves also have blind fields to work with, too.

Blind/smoke field access is honestly what makes thieves so strong against non-ranged classes. I occasionally run a really trolly bunker thief spec in sPvP. It’s a full healing power P/P thief which effectively attritions people to death so hard that until they get reinforcements or the capacity to ignore spamming blind fields, it is unkillable. Why? Because I make you miss 100% of your attacks and hit you for 100-200 damage attacks which whittle you down for 15 minutes and eventually run you dry without either running away and resetting or you getting your friends.

And this build is literally just me pressing 5. I don’t even have to try or even play well, and I’ve been kicked from a ton of dueling servers because the build is just so infuriating to play against.

It’s not stealth, but the access to smoke fields and what ANet made absolutely ridiculous blind durations that make these builds so hard to out-play.

For anyone that thinks black powder is OP, you should try kiting around it to see just how much damage you can deal while making a thief waste initiative.

Yes and any thief with a brain won’t stand in the smoke field – he will be gone before you can hit in melee by heartseeker.

Or simply will stand in the blind field but will stick to you and keep applying blinds. A thief can use in one rotation:

Blind on stealth -> stealth on steal = 5 sec blind
Black Powder = 5 sec blind x 4 pulses = 20 seconds of blindness
HiS = 5 sec blind
Blinding Powder = 5 sec blind
Instinctual Response = 3 sec blind
Shadow Refuge = 5 sec blind OR smoke field 1sec blind x 7 pulses = 7 seconds blind
Signet of Shadows = 5 sec AoE blind.

With a SA/init build, by simply facerolling a keyboard through utilities and pressing 5 and 2, a thief can maintain blind at even the highest opponent’s attack speed for over 30 seconds within one initiative cycle while closing the gaps to the target. This isn’t even accounting for thieve’s guild, either.

Meanwhile, all of those skills allow for stealth with dagger mainhand.

Blind application is blatantly overbearing, especially since 12 seconds of that application doesn’t even come from needing blind on stealth/steal traiting.

And for many instances of fighting blind thieves, if you cannot burst them, they lose the fight. With so much anti-burst potential due to the blind application it has, a good D/P faces no counter when engaged by melee-based opponents when played well. No counter. Not even a skilled play can counteract this. There is literally NOTHING an opponent can do about it except take the hits, try to get at a ranged advantage, and do SOMETHING.

I have nothing against thieves and stealth. I main thief and love the class. Blind application is just too accessible, though, and if fixed to have a duration of say, 1 second on many of its applications, the capability of a thief to excel to such extents would be inhibited on one of its more overpowered builds while not affecting the other ones. D/P blind builds are worth complaining about, while you never see anyone complain about D/D (except noobs that get gibbed by burst signet stabbers and don’t understand the level of sacrifice the build makes to achieve those numbers).

DeceiverX.8361:

Supreme.4051:

Shockwave.1230:

DeceiverX.8361:

Nicely put.

Stealth isn’t OP. It’s the accessibility of it. Nerfing stealth just removes viable builds like D/D into more frustrating ones like D/P due to the fact that D/P thieves also have blind fields to work with, too.

Blind/smoke field access is honestly what makes thieves so strong against non-ranged classes. I occasionally run a really trolly bunker thief spec in sPvP. It’s a full healing power P/P thief which effectively attritions people to death so hard that until they get reinforcements or the capacity to ignore spamming blind fields, it is unkillable. Why? Because I make you miss 100% of your attacks and hit you for 100-200 damage attacks which whittle you down for 15 minutes and eventually run you dry without either running away and resetting or you getting your friends.

And this build is literally just me pressing 5. I don’t even have to try or even play well, and I’ve been kicked from a ton of dueling servers because the build is just so infuriating to play against.

It’s not stealth, but the access to smoke fields and what ANet made absolutely ridiculous blind durations that make these builds so hard to out-play.

For anyone that thinks black powder is OP, you should try kiting around it to see just how much damage you can deal while making a thief waste initiative.

Yes and any thief with a brain won’t stand in the smoke field – he will be gone before you can hit in melee by heartseeker.

Or simply will stand in the blind field but will stick to you and keep applying blinds. A thief can use in one rotation:

Blind on stealth -> stealth on steal = 5 sec blind
Black Powder = 5 sec blind x 4 pulses = 20 seconds of blindness
HiS = 5 sec blind
Blinding Powder = 5 sec blind
Instinctual Response = 3 sec blind
Shadow Refuge = 5 sec blind OR smoke field 1sec blind x 7 pulses = 7 seconds blind
Signet of Shadows = 5 sec AoE blind.

With a SA/init build, by simply facerolling a keyboard through utilities and pressing 5 and 2, a thief can maintain blind at even the highest opponent’s attack speed for over 30 seconds within one initiative cycle while closing the gaps to the target. This isn’t even accounting for thieve’s guild, either.

Meanwhile, all of those skills allow for stealth with dagger mainhand.

Blind application is blatantly overbearing, especially since 12 seconds of that application doesn’t even come from needing blind on stealth/steal traiting.

And for many instances of fighting blind thieves, if you cannot burst them, they lose the fight. With so much anti-burst potential due to the blind application it has, a good D/P faces no counter when engaged by melee-based opponents when played well. No counter. Not even a skilled play can counteract this. There is literally NOTHING an opponent can do about it except take the hits, try to get at a ranged advantage, and do SOMETHING.

I have nothing against thieves and stealth. I main thief and love the class. Blind application is just too accessible, though, and if fixed to have a duration of say, 1 second on many of its applications, the capability of a thief to excel to such extents would be inhibited on one of its more overpowered builds while not affecting the other ones. D/P blind builds are worth complaining about, while you never see anyone complain about D/D (except noobs that get gibbed by burst signet stabbers and don’t understand the level of sacrifice the build makes to achieve those numbers).

I don’t care about WvW at all, but if that was in PvP I’d ask the following questions…

Why not time some CCs, especially after Blinding Powder and the thief coming out of stealth?
Why not use soft CCs when the thief has no condi removal and no teleports to flee with?
Why not interrupt HiS, it has an obvious animation?
Why be worried about stealth on steal blinding, when it only blinds the area the thief teleports from, not to?
Why not pull or knock the thief out of SR? Or AoE the SR.
Why are you worried about Signet of Shadows applying a blind, when it’s a weak combat utility?
Why stand in Blackpowder when you can attack from outside it?
Why not use skills that apply numerous strikes quickly vs blind?
Why not use skills that make you immune to blind (invulns, zerker stance)?
Why not time a condi removal if you need to land a hit?

Not everyone has all those counters available, but they have most. It will help you to learn the above plays if you don’t know them.

Poplolita.2638:

I would like to point out I have no problem against thieves, and that I rarely lose against them whenever I face them 1v1 in tpvp, they don’t even use stealth that much (talking about s/d thief). Also, getting outplayed has nothing to do with counters. I’m talking about counter from a mechanical perspective.

i understand what you mean by the fact that stealth doesn’t have hard counters (although there are… just not many or user friendly) but my question is why. why does stealth need additional hard mechanical counters?

Thieves have inherently weaker damage, stats, skill usage and hp wise than most of the other classes. they need to counter play other classes by using stealth, evades, blinds, or a combination in order to gain an advantage. Other classes then need to counter play the thief’s counter play by means of positioning, smart use of skills, knowledge of the weaknesses of these mechanics. The thief then needs to start to play unpredictably in order to make it harder for other classes to counter them, usually by means of going heavily into utilities (which does not last) and try to win before these run out.

So in the case of stealth… from what i understand from what you are saying, you’re wanting to change this process to…
1. thief is inherently weaker, uses stealth to gain an advantage
2. Opponent uses mechanical counter
3. Story ends thief dies
4. ?

Have you ever been hit by a stealth detector trap or the AC 4 skill on a SA thief? The moment that happens and if anyone at all is around, you basically have to burn all of your utilities and initiative to even have a remote chance of surviving (wvw of course). If players had the ability to just slap something like that onto their utility bar (which the ranger already has… although thankfully very unreliable), i would just retire my thief and play my ele (which is already better than my thief in most areas of the game).

Cogbyrn.7283:

frans.8092:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If all they did was apply Revealed to a class who is in Stealth upon them being downed, even just 1 second of it while they are invulnerable, I would actually feel a lot better about a lot of things re: Stealth. But I would wager that someone is going to say that would break Thieves irreparably, or take a lot of the skill out of the class with regard to using SR when you’re about to go down or something.

Downed state is intended to delay defeat so that players have a chance to rally, it’s not supposed to lead to a guaranteed stomp and game mechanics do not have not be changed because something annoys you.

Nothing has to be changed for any one person. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t give our feedback based on our experience/perception to help ANet make the most informed, data-driven decision they can. If it turns out everyone else loves how a Thief going down in SR is a auto-attack guessing game for 15+ seconds, that’s fine. I’ll deal with it. However, I think it’s both completely silly, and bad game design. If I wanted to play Battleship, I’ll go play Battleship.

You only speak for yourself, you do not speak for everyone, so yes, you are asking for a (major) chance because something without real balance impact annoys you.
Bad design would be to build in a thousands of little rules for all kinds of (rare) situations, like what you are asking for. Terrible design would be to have them just to avoid minor inconveniences or personal annoyances. Good design is having as few rules as possible that apply to a wide range of situations, Keep It Simple.

Stealth should drop as soon as the thief attacks.

If he gets evaded/blocked he should come out of stealth. It’s what makes stealth so unbalanced compared to other games versions. There’s no risk involved.

Spam button 1 until you get the backstab, don’t worry if he has a shield up or dodges your first two clumsy attempts, you get to keep trying until you land it. If I miss with my updraft I don’t get a refresh until it lands.

An attack even if evaded or blocked should still count as an attack and remove stealth. That would balance it entirely. It raises the skill cap without destroying the class.

Run in circles like a lunatic and auto atack the air !

If Anet does end up giving in to all the whine about stealth counters they’d better implement some serious buffs to the class at the same time. 90% of the thieves are already laughably easy to down on pretty much any other class I play. I guess the players who can’t be bothered learning how to counterplay thieves themselves need a button they can press to instantly drop a thief out of stealth and reveal him.

Okaishi.8320:

If Anet does end up giving in to all the whine about stealth counters they’d better implement some serious buffs to the class at the same time. 90% of the thieves are already laughably easy to down on pretty much any other class I play. I guess the players who can’t be bothered learning how to counterplay thieves themselves need a button they can press to instantly drop a thief out of stealth and reveal him.

Ignoring self praise and unrelated comment…

What Anet needs to do is to add “a button they (players) can press to instantly drop a thief out of stealth and reveal him.” – Okaishi

ShakeyStorm.7180:

Okaishi.8320:

If Anet does end up giving in to all the whine about stealth counters they’d better implement some serious buffs to the class at the same time. 90% of the thieves are already laughably easy to down on pretty much any other class I play. I guess the players who can’t be bothered learning how to counterplay thieves themselves need a button they can press to instantly drop a thief out of stealth and reveal him.

Ignoring self praise and unrelated comment…

What Anet needs to do is to add “a button they (players) can press to instantly drop a thief out of stealth and reveal him.” – Okaishi

Yeah, well, I’d like buttons to instantly remove stability, blocking, protection, aegis and more of those annoyances. There are such buttons, but they are rare, just as there are drop-out-of-stealth buttons, that are equally rare.

You can counter stealth, entering stealth and the use of stealth. Not a failsafe 100% always, but that is never the case in this game.

ShakeyStorm.7180:

Ignoring self praise and unrelated comment…

What Anet needs to do is to add “a button they (players) can press to instantly drop a thief out of stealth and reveal him.” – Okaishi

Self praise? Understanding thief mechanics and being able to deal with the class doesn’t require you to be an amazing player, and I don’t see myself as one anyway. Or perhaps I should have ignored your pointless reply.

frans.8092:

ShakeyStorm.7180:

Okaishi.8320:

If Anet does end up giving in to all the whine about stealth counters they’d better implement some serious buffs to the class at the same time. 90% of the thieves are already laughably easy to down on pretty much any other class I play. I guess the players who can’t be bothered learning how to counterplay thieves themselves need a button they can press to instantly drop a thief out of stealth and reveal him.

Ignoring self praise and unrelated comment…

What Anet needs to do is to add “a button they (players) can press to instantly drop a thief out of stealth and reveal him.” – Okaishi

Yeah, well, I’d like buttons to instantly remove stability, blocking, protection, aegis and more of those annoyances. There are such buttons, but they are rare, just as there are drop-out-of-stealth buttons, that are equally rare.

You can counter stealth, entering stealth and the use of stealth. Not a failsafe 100% always, but that is never the case in this game.

Original post says “There is no counter to stealth”. You said “You can counter stealth, entering stealth and the use of stealth”. Perhaps you can contribute better by elaborating further on why you find “There is no counter to stealth” incorrect.

BTW I am ignoring that other person