Guild Wars 2

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

@ killahmayne

Makes sense. So warriors don’t need any change? Fine by me. I just don’t know that everyone else will accept that.

not sure where in my post where I implied warriors don’t need any change, if you would please kindly point that out to me.

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

DuranArgith.1354:

The only other trait against conditions warriors have is restorative strength
(10 points in strength, removes weakness, immobilize, chilled and crippled when using a healing skill)

Pretty kitten worthless. dogged march , runes and lemongrass make it completely obsolete.
Other than that and cleansing ire, warriors have no other trait that deals with conditions, at all.

Just checked the wiki and saw the “Shake it Off” and “Quick Breathing” traits under Tactics. Those seem fine…. are they actually not good in application? If they actually are then doesn’t that strengthen my suggestion of moving “Cleansing Ire” to the Grandmaster Major trait selection as a means to make warriors choose to combat their weakness to conditions?

Edit: On second thought it sounds even better because it means warriors might opt to go 10 into defense, and 20 in tactics instead of the full 30 into defense, but they will have to really make a choice to get that adrenal health as 15 in discipline seems “required” (meaning build restriction though….).

Oh yeah, completely forgot about those since I haven’t used them in ages. My bad.

Mobile strikes only deals with a single condition and only when running away really. And it just removes immobilize at the start of the skill, you can get immobilised again during the animation. And the lemongrass combo deals with that as well. Its a better trait in pvp though, but like I said warriors starve for trait points and many opt to just ignore it. Also optimal use requires the warrior to get pidgeonholed into greatsword and sword. (eathshaker and shield bash work as well, but.)

Now shrug it off is just..bad. You have no control over it, 25 seconds is a lot of cd for one condition (even 20 is long when traited) and you need to have 2 conditions on you to trigger. Just avoid.

Quick breathing is actually good if you use warhorn. I believe it went out of fashion long ago, warriors were using it because the trait was bugged and removed 2 conditions instead of 1). Also, noone uses warhorn in PVP, or PVE. In wvw, the only reason to bring warhorn is for the mobility, but really, is mobility one of warriors problems?

Also I would like to take this opportunity to make a plea to the devs: Please, warriors have been asking for the tactics line minor traits to be reworked since the beta. Please do something about it, I dont want to be specialized in reviving people. Its not the warriors role. Thank you.

DuranArgith.1354:

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

DuranArgith.1354:

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

Hooma, Harper, DuranArgith…. thank you for putting out some very clear and constructive thoughts on the defense tree (helps little ole’ me who doesn’t have a warrior and can’t grasp the concept as fast).

So…… has anyone suggested that Cleansing Ire be switched with Spiked Armor to become a grandmaster major trait? Wouldn’t this solve the supposed problem of an easy 20 into the trait tree and make the warrior actually build for 30 before chosing either the condition cleanse OR the low hp EP proc (kinda like ranger’s WS line)?

Please don’t shred my idea …. I just can’t judge very well what this would do for the profession so could you more experienced warriors tell me?

Well, a warrior in my opinion needs 35 trait points that are an absolute must.
15 in fast hands and 20 for cleansing ire.

Your idea would mean that warriors would be starving for trait points if they needed 45 points out of 70 in order to even be viable.

Sounds kinda boring and build restricting to “require” 35 trait points already. My suggestion might mean even more of a restriction OR more build diversity and I think that other professions already have the issue of “requiring” to go 30 into at least one trait tree.

Anyways, what do you suggest as an alternative?

I cant really suggest any alternative. Most condition battling traits for classes are on the master level. Cleansing Ire being a master level is consistent.

I’ll have my cleansing wave remove three conditions and reduce attunement recharges by one second then, if you please, (does 3 conditions every ten seconds with a boost to my profession mechanic included in my defense traitline sound familiar?).
If Cleansing Ire is comparable to master-level major traits of other classes, then you would presumably be okay with receiving the equivalent of one of these skills in its place:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Inscriptions
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave_ (mentally replace this with a weapon swap, on 10-13 second cooldown)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleaning_Formula_409 (mentally replace this with shouts or banners or something)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inscribed_Removal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Absolute_Resolution (mentally replace this with something that has a 60-second cooldown)

I assume you aren’t, because every single one of these (and these are the master major cleansing traits for other classes) is quite obviously weaker. I would go so far as to say that most grandmaster cleansing traits are weaker.
This isn’t to say that Cleansing Ire is in the wrong place, just to show how far and above it is beyond equivalent cleansing traits, and thus to show how wrong it is to say that cleansing ire is consistent with other master-level traits.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

DuranArgith.1354:

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

DuranArgith.1354:

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

Hooma, Harper, DuranArgith…. thank you for putting out some very clear and constructive thoughts on the defense tree (helps little ole’ me who doesn’t have a warrior and can’t grasp the concept as fast).

So…… has anyone suggested that Cleansing Ire be switched with Spiked Armor to become a grandmaster major trait? Wouldn’t this solve the supposed problem of an easy 20 into the trait tree and make the warrior actually build for 30 before chosing either the condition cleanse OR the low hp EP proc (kinda like ranger’s WS line)?

Please don’t shred my idea …. I just can’t judge very well what this would do for the profession so could you more experienced warriors tell me?

Well, a warrior in my opinion needs 35 trait points that are an absolute must.
15 in fast hands and 20 for cleansing ire.

Your idea would mean that warriors would be starving for trait points if they needed 45 points out of 70 in order to even be viable.

Sounds kinda boring and build restricting to “require” 35 trait points already. My suggestion might mean even more of a restriction OR more build diversity and I think that other professions already have the issue of “requiring” to go 30 into at least one trait tree.

Anyways, what do you suggest as an alternative?

I cant really suggest any alternative. Most condition battling traits for classes are on the master level. Cleansing Ire being a master level is consistent.

I’ll have my cleansing wave remove three conditions and reduce attunement recharges by one second then, if you please, (does 3 conditions every ten seconds with a boost to my profession mechanic included in my defense traitline sound familiar?).
If Cleansing Ire is comparable to master-level major traits of other classes, then you would presumably be okay with receiving the equivalent of one of these skills in its place:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Inscriptions
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave_ (mentally replace this with a weapon swap, on 10-13 second cooldown)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleaning_Formula_409 (mentally replace this with shouts or banners or something)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inscribed_Removal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Absolute_Resolution (mentally replace this with something that has a 60-second cooldown)

I assume you aren’t, because every single one of these (and these are the master major cleansing traits for other classes) is quite obviously weaker. I would go so far as to say that most grandmaster cleansing traits are weaker.
This isn’t to say that Cleansing Ire is in the wrong place, just to show how far and above it is beyond equivalent cleansing traits, and thus to show how wrong it is to say that cleansing ire is consistent with other master-level traits.

You haven’t read the conversation about cleansing ire at all, have you….
Also, youre comparing elementalist, a class that noone can deny that needs buffs to other classes.

Also, the above are like I said: condition battling traits are master level consistently. Noone said that all traits are equal, though the examples you gave gives you more control compared to cleansing ire. you dont need to hit to use signets, or to attune to air. It happens 100% of the time.

This is not the thread to talk about classes traits power really.

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

Atherakhia.4086:

Cleansing Ire is fine where it is. Empathic Bond should be a 20pt trait. Moving it to 30 restricts build diversity because conditions are such a huge problem for most classes in this game. Cleansing Ire is about on par with Empathic Bond and Guardian passive condi removal. If you want to tone down the condi cleanse focus on berserker stance.

I’m okay with Empathetic Bond being in the Grandmaster Major slot. It competes well with Bark Skin. Also, berserker stance is one utility….. if it gets a change then so too should Signet of Renewal and Healing Spring.

Empathic Bond has the same issue Cleansing Ire has… it’s a mandatory trait when playing a Ranger. It removes all build diversity options for the class and is one of the leading reasons a power based Ranger simply doesn’t work. It’s the perfect example of why you don’t want to move cleansing ire. It will destroy the class just like Rangers are awful because their condi cleanse options are about on par with what a Warrior is capable of.

I also have no idea why changing berserker stance would have any impact on Signet of Renewel or Healing Spring. Signet of Renewel is similar to Signet of Stamina. Healing Spring is an AWFUL ability for Rangers because they no longer use the heal when they need it, but when the group demands it.

Nerfing Berserker Stance is more akin to nerfing Brown Bear for Rangers. Trust me… it’s nerfed enough.

DuranArgith.1354:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

DuranArgith.1354:

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

DuranArgith.1354:

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

Hooma, Harper, DuranArgith…. thank you for putting out some very clear and constructive thoughts on the defense tree (helps little ole’ me who doesn’t have a warrior and can’t grasp the concept as fast).

So…… has anyone suggested that Cleansing Ire be switched with Spiked Armor to become a grandmaster major trait? Wouldn’t this solve the supposed problem of an easy 20 into the trait tree and make the warrior actually build for 30 before chosing either the condition cleanse OR the low hp EP proc (kinda like ranger’s WS line)?

Please don’t shred my idea …. I just can’t judge very well what this would do for the profession so could you more experienced warriors tell me?

Well, a warrior in my opinion needs 35 trait points that are an absolute must.
15 in fast hands and 20 for cleansing ire.

Your idea would mean that warriors would be starving for trait points if they needed 45 points out of 70 in order to even be viable.

Sounds kinda boring and build restricting to “require” 35 trait points already. My suggestion might mean even more of a restriction OR more build diversity and I think that other professions already have the issue of “requiring” to go 30 into at least one trait tree.

Anyways, what do you suggest as an alternative?

I cant really suggest any alternative. Most condition battling traits for classes are on the master level. Cleansing Ire being a master level is consistent.

I’ll have my cleansing wave remove three conditions and reduce attunement recharges by one second then, if you please, (does 3 conditions every ten seconds with a boost to my profession mechanic included in my defense traitline sound familiar?).
If Cleansing Ire is comparable to master-level major traits of other classes, then you would presumably be okay with receiving the equivalent of one of these skills in its place:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Inscriptions
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave_ (mentally replace this with a weapon swap, on 10-13 second cooldown)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleaning_Formula_409 (mentally replace this with shouts or banners or something)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inscribed_Removal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Absolute_Resolution (mentally replace this with something that has a 60-second cooldown)

I assume you aren’t, because every single one of these (and these are the master major cleansing traits for other classes) is quite obviously weaker. I would go so far as to say that most grandmaster cleansing traits are weaker.
This isn’t to say that Cleansing Ire is in the wrong place, just to show how far and above it is beyond equivalent cleansing traits, and thus to show how wrong it is to say that cleansing ire is consistent with other master-level traits.

You haven’t read the conversation about cleansing ire at all, have you….
Also, youre comparing elementalist, a class that noone can deny that needs buffs to other classes.

Sorry about missing that whole conversation there, I got to this page and started reading it when the quoted post was the last one. I was doing other stuff while writing up my post, so it took me a while to actually post the thing and I missed ~40 minutes of posting.

if i would balance warrior i would remove cleansing ire.. remember that warrior was meant to have condition as weakspot. as already stated out there are enough options to remove conditions. shouts work really well with soldier runes.

there was only 1 buildtype that had problems with conditions and that was zerker warriors. a fixed and better sigill of purity had solved that issue for every glascanon without bringing this game out of balance, cause with that sigill condition(bunker) had a clear counter in glascanons and would still be strong against other bunkertypes that use cleric or settler.

oh and please stop comparing cleansing ire with empathic bond. empathic bond destroys class mechanic. emphatic bond needs 30 point investment. and emphatic bond by side the ranger hasnt that many options like warrior to remove condis. the above compare to ele is in my opinion a better indicator, if we think that ele is at least one of the classes that are near a balanced and healthy state and not under that powercreep of the last patches.

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

killahmayne.9518:

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

@ killahmayne

Makes sense. So warriors don’t need any change? Fine by me. I just don’t know that everyone else will accept that.

not sure where in my post where I implied warriors don’t need any change, if you would please kindly point that out to me.

Sorry. I didn’t mean to assume, that was wrong of me. I thought you were saying that warrior’s cleansing ire and current state is viable.

Btw, what would you like to change about the profession? It’ll probably relate to the thread topic so I’d like to hear.

What I meant by what I said was that Warriors are locked into 20 points of defense because of how mandatory Cleansing Ire is. In fact, I dread Cleansing Ire just for that fact. In an ideal balanced MMO no trait should feel mandatory to take, although in reality, depending on many things such as alternative options and meta, this could be difficult to accomplish.

Cleansing Ire isn’t in a good state at all, mainly because of how mandatory it is and mainly because it is mandatory; it renders many weapon options sub-par because they can’t actively use Cleansing Ire as reliably. Moving Cleansing Ire to a grandmaster trait just totally destroys build diversity and would be a terrible idea.

In all honesty, the root of many balancing problems boils down to the condition meta and how conditions work in pvp. ANet has clearly stated in their balance philosophy that Warriors struggle against conditions and might need help from other classes. However, this weakness alone completely removed them from any viable tourney play.

So ANet had two options. Completely revise the condition meta in a way to accommodate Warrior play or give warriors a way to battle and sustain through conditions. Obviously, the latter is much easier to achieve. However, now a few other classes are going through those same problems so I think ANet really needs to take a hard look on conditions.

Despite conditions being the meta, one wrong nerf can completely destroy it and as a result we would have a power meta. Some possible ways people have suggested to tone it down have been:

- Make toughness reduce condition damage
- Better condi clears for all classes
- Change how one invests in condition damage
- Introduce more - condition duration options

I don’t really agree with having toughness reduce condition damage at all, conceptually it just doesn’t make sense at all. Some classes could have better and more reliable condi clears. Power builds need invest in Power, Precision and Crit damage where Condition builds need to invest in Condition Damage, and condition duration isn’t a huge problem when you have a traitline that gives you extra condition duration. I found it kind of weird that you can invest in + condition duration in a traitline but you can’t invest in - condition duration, or it is harder to come by. Maybe if they had gear that gives you - condition duration, like 15% on the chest or something, or amulets in spvp.

Anyways I digress, but my point is balancing is a bit difficult without first addressing the condition meta. Because balancing classes around such meta doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense.

there was already a solution to the problem of zerkers against condition called SIGILL OF PURITY. all what was needed was a fix and improve of a shorter cooldown.

hooma.9642:

there was already a solution to the problem of zerkers against condition called SIGILL OF PURITY. all what was needed was a fix and improve of a shorter cooldown.

sigil of purity procc’ed on cooldown, even without having a single condition on you. It was and is bad.

Also, please lets not balance a class based on sigil and runes. For the love of god.
Speaking of runes, lets wait for rune and sigil redesign first. People are expecting a lot of power creep, and I think it will shake the meta to the core.

The whole issue I think boils down to the condition heavy meta that is forcing warriors into this particular spec.
Any other non-defense spec is not even remotely viable.
If conditions weren’t such a big part of the meta I doubt we’d be seeing the issues we are now.

Regarding Ire being moved to 30 points – it might help and it might not. The end result will most likely be the same but now the warrior has to invest 10 more points in defense.
I really don’t know what to say.

Warriors will still get cleansing Ire wherever they put it. But it would really be a big blow to warriors if its changed with the current meta.

Also, far too many traits have been moved up the line for warriors already.
Most of our adept tier major traits suck. Arms and strength adept traits especially.

@Harper

The reason Fast Hands will be pushed down to 10 points is because it should go in conjunction with Adrenal Health’s move as a Major Trait. Warriors can’t get Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire with just mere 20 points anymore so they get to spend less for Fast Hands and get to spend more to defense if they still want to pursue getting all 3 traits.

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

Hooma, Harper, DuranArgith…. thank you for putting out some very clear and constructive thoughts on the defense tree (helps little ole’ me who doesn’t have a warrior and can’t grasp the concept as fast).

So…… has anyone suggested that Cleansing Ire be switched with Spiked Armor to become a grandmaster major trait? Wouldn’t this solve the supposed problem of an easy 20 into the trait tree and make the warrior actually build for 30 before chosing either the condition cleanse OR the low hp EP proc (kinda like ranger’s WS line)?

Please don’t shred my idea …. I just can’t judge very well what this would do for the profession so could you more experienced warriors tell me?

I think it would be better if they put Adrenal Health as either an Adept or Master trait. Cleansing Ire should stay at Master tier. That way Warriors get to choose 2 out of 3 if they’re only willing to spend 20 points. If they want to pursue all 3, they’d need to spend 10 more points. Moving Fast Hands to Adept Tier should go with this so they get to refund 5 trait points and look to move 5 more points from somewhere to get all 3 defense traits back.

Kyon.9735:

The reason Fast Hands will be pushed down to 10 points is because it should go in conjunction with Adrenal Health’s move as a Major Trait. Warriors can’t get Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire with just mere 20 points anymore so they get to spend less for Fast Hands and get to spend more to defense if they still want to pursue getting all 3 traits.

Adrenal health is already useless since warriors dont sit on their adrenaline. I would gladly exchange it with a decent minor trait.

If anything cleansing Ire should be moved away from the Defense line and put into Strength master or even grandmaster. Similar shuffle should also be done for other classes so that glass counters condi (and condi counters direct damage bunkering/regen, and bunker counters glass, etc). The only class that should come close to having an absolute defensive privilege is Guardian.

roamzero.9486:

If anything cleansing Ire should be moved away from the Defense line and put into Strength master or even grandmaster. Similar shuffle should also be done for other classes so that glass counter condi (and condi counters direct damage bunkering/regen, and bunker counters glass, etc).

No. Please read the discussion before posting, your change would absolutely ruin the class.
We already discussed how bad it would be to even get moved to grandmaster and require 10 more trait points to get.
And you want to invest 20 in strength now?

The only class that should come close to having an absolute defensive privilege is Guardian.

On what basis do you support this claim?

DuranArgith.1354:

Kyon.9735:

The reason Fast Hands will be pushed down to 10 points is because it should go in conjunction with Adrenal Health’s move as a Major Trait. Warriors can’t get Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire with just mere 20 points anymore so they get to spend less for Fast Hands and get to spend more to defense if they still want to pursue getting all 3 traits.

Adrenal health is already useless since warriors dont sit on their adrenaline. I would gladly exchange it with a decent minor trait.

Adrenal Health is useless? Many people will beg to differ. I know it needs at least 2 levels of adrenaline to synergize well with Healing Signet but it gives warriors a win-win situation if they go for Cleansing Ire.

You sit with your adrenaline then you get additional Sustain. You spend your adrenaline then you get more cleanse. Everybody know how easy it is to build Adrenaline.

Kyon.9735:

DuranArgith.1354:

Kyon.9735:

The reason Fast Hands will be pushed down to 10 points is because it should go in conjunction with Adrenal Health’s move as a Major Trait. Warriors can’t get Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire with just mere 20 points anymore so they get to spend less for Fast Hands and get to spend more to defense if they still want to pursue getting all 3 traits.

Adrenal health is already useless since warriors dont sit on their adrenaline. I would gladly exchange it with a decent minor trait.

Adrenal Health is useless? Many people will beg to differ. I know it needs at least 2 levels of adrenaline to synergize well with Healing Signet but it gives warriors a win-win situation if they go for Cleansing Ire.

You sit with your adrenaline then you get additional Sustain. You spend your adrenaline then you get more cleanse. Everybody know how easy it is to build Adrenaline.

Ok, its not totally useless. Lets call it borderline useless.
Why would you even sit on your adrenaline and not make liberal use of cleansing ire with all the conditions flying around?

At lvl 3 adrenaline, 120hp/s assuming the attacker has NO condition damage AT ALL (ie. 0, zero, zilch) counters 3 stacks of bleeding, poison eliminates it (33% less healing = 80 hp/s left and poison does 84/s), a single stack of torment and nothing against burning.

And power builds would laugh at 120hp/s anyway when you do 2k per autoattack.

DuranArgith.1354:

Kyon.9735:

DuranArgith.1354:

Kyon.9735:

The reason Fast Hands will be pushed down to 10 points is because it should go in conjunction with Adrenal Health’s move as a Major Trait. Warriors can’t get Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire with just mere 20 points anymore so they get to spend less for Fast Hands and get to spend more to defense if they still want to pursue getting all 3 traits.

Adrenal health is already useless since warriors dont sit on their adrenaline. I would gladly exchange it with a decent minor trait.

Adrenal Health is useless? Many people will beg to differ. I know it needs at least 2 levels of adrenaline to synergize well with Healing Signet but it gives warriors a win-win situation if they go for Cleansing Ire.

You sit with your adrenaline then you get additional Sustain. You spend your adrenaline then you get more cleanse. Everybody know how easy it is to build Adrenaline.

Ok, its not totally useless. Lets call it borderline useless.
Why would you even sit on your adrenaline and not make liberal use of cleansing ire with all the conditions flying around?

Not because we are in the condi meta means that you will always have conditions that you will want to remove immediately. Then again I don’t think it’s as good as Cleansing Ire’s so maybe it should go down to Adept Tier.

Ghostwolf.9863:

The hambows weakness is:
Vulnerable to classes with high burst on low cooldown.
High condition spam on low cooldown.
Classes who can frequently apply poison and have high sustained damage.
Soft CC’s.

That’s pretty much everyone’s weakness.

Warriors are OP by design. They excel at whatever they choose to focus on, while maintaining above average performance in all other areas (defense, damage, cc, etc). They get a lot of free defense and free damage.

Warriors are OP by their very design. They get a lot of free defense and free damage. They excel at whatever they choose to focus on while maintaining at average or above average perfomance in other areas (like damage, defense, CC).

“Here’s what I think – Cleansing Ire is not as bad as people make it out to be – you actually have to LAND your F1 in order to clear the condies – and a good player won’t allow you to.”

This is what i hate, this sort of argument. Surely if the warrior is a good player he will land it every time. Do you instantly lose your ability to play once you choose warrior, do you lose the ability to time attacks and count dodge rolls. When I play my warrior in spvp i rarely miss an adrenal attack with any weapon, it’s not that hard.

Also, if you’re having trouble landing the longbow F1, then this isn’t the game for you.

You cannot miss F1 longbow. Cleansing Ire is the best condtion removal in the complete game.

Harper.4173:

Regarding Ire being moved to 30 points – it might help and it might not. The end result will most likely be the same but now the warrior has to invest 10 more points in defense.
I really don’t know what to say.

Agreed. Moving it up will most likely just change the points invested but Warriors will still get it. You could pick Merciless Hammer or a Stance trait on the Master level instead and there will barely be any change. Because of this reason I’m also against moving Empathic Bond down a tier. Of course, it would free up 10 points but it will still be mandatory for Rangers. It is way more important to offer reasonable alternatives if you want to make a trait less mandatory.

Cleansing Ire is a great trait but I personally feel that it might be too strong. It certainly is not on the level as other Master traits considering the benefits it grants. It is above average if not top. It is not tied to a Heal. You do not need any additional utilities to make it work. So what could be done? Be aware, this is my personal opinion.

As already said, I think that traits become less mandatory if alternatives are offered. The question would be if there are any. I personally feel yes. Tactics offers alternatives. Stances could be alternatives but unfortunately do not exclude Cleansing Ire. Even Mending could be an alternative. To sum up: Yes, there are alternatives.

Why are they not picked? Mending is to weak heal-wise. Especially when compared to the Healing Signet. The amount healed needs to be buffed. Shouts and Warhorn are quite viable although they require a commitment to a certain weapon, runes and specific utilities. However, they are overshadowed by Cleansing Ire because it a) probably is too strong, b) can conveniently be combined with Stances and c) comes with Adrenal Health ontop. I don’t see a way to fix b) and c) is a totally different topic. I’d like to focus on a).

I don’t think that the amount of removed conditions can be changed. 1 condition per Adrenaline is a good design and very intuitive. However, there are two things which can be adjusted.

Adrenaline gain
The additional Adrenaline gain might just be too much considering the already powerful effect of condition removal. It increases the effectiveness of Adrenal Health and even has an offensive component because it speeds up the use of Burst skills. Warriors already have other traits which grant Adrenaline. This portion of the trait could be removed or introduced as a new seperate trait if you feel that this sort of passive Adrenaline gain is needed.

Cooldown
Why is there no cooldown on Cleansing Ire? The lack of cooldown encourages extensive weapon swapping and forces people into specific weapon sets (e.g. Longbow) to speed up the Adrenaline gain. This is made worse when picking up Versatile Rage and Fast Hands. It also is the main reason why other sources of condition removal on Warriors can’t compete. Because they have cooldowns.

phaeris.7604:

“Here’s what I think – Cleansing Ire is not as bad as people make it out to be – you actually have to LAND your F1 in order to clear the condies – and a good player won’t allow you to.”

This is what i hate, this sort of argument. Surely if the warrior is a good player he will land it every time. Do you instantly lose your ability to play once you choose warrior, do you lose the ability to time attacks and count dodge rolls. When I play my warrior in spvp i rarely miss an adrenal attack with any weapon, it’s not that hard.

Also, if you’re having trouble landing the longbow F1, then this isn’t the game for you.

The fact that the only F1 skill people are bringing up is longbow pretty much proves just how easy to land and useful the other F1 skills are.

Also – i’m trying to point out that the condition removal provided by Ire is not an " on demand hit it whenever i want " condition removal button.
Your opponent has just as much say in you removing or not removing those conditions as you do.
If he can dodge / block / blind your F1 you’re not going to remove – period.

Xaylin.1860:

Agreed. Moving it up will most likely just change the points invested but Warriors will still get it. You could pick Merciless Hammer or a Stance trait on the Master level instead and there will barely be any change. Because of this reason I’m also against moving Empathic Bond down a tier. Of course, it would free up 10 points but it will still be mandatory for Rangers. It is way more important to offer reasonable alternatives if you want to make a trait less mandatory.

Cleansing Ire is a great trait but I personally feel that it might be too strong. It certainly is not on the level as other Master traits considering the benefits it grants. It is above average if not top. It is not tied to a Heal. You do not need any additional utilities to make it work. So what could be done? Be aware, this is my personal opinion.

As already said, I think that traits become less mandatory if alternatives are offered. The question would be if there are any. I personally feel yes. Tactics offers alternatives. Stances could be alternatives but unfortunately do not exclude Cleansing Ire. Even Mending could be an alternative. To sum up: Yes, there are alternatives.

Why are they not picked? Mending is to weak heal-wise. Especially when compared to the Healing Signet. The amount healed needs to be buffed. Shouts and Warhorn are quite viable although they require a commitment to a certain weapon, runes and specific utilities. However, they are overshadowed by Cleansing Ire because it a) probably is too strong, b) can conveniently be combined with Stances and c) comes with Adrenal Health ontop. I don’t see a way to fix b) and c) is a totally different topic. I’d like to focus on a).

Adrenaline gain
The additional Adrenaline gain might just be too much considering the already powerful effect of condition removal. It increases the effectiveness of Adrenal Health and even has an offensive component because it speeds up the use of Burst skills. Warriors already have other traits which grant Adrenaline. This portion of the trait could be removed or introduced as a new seperate trait if you feel that this sort of passive Adrenaline gain is needed.

Cooldown
Why is there no cooldown on Cleansing Ire? The lack of cooldown encourages extensive weapon swapping and forces people into specific weapon sets (e.g. Longbow) to speed up the Adrenaline gain. This is made worse when picking up Versatile Rage and Fast Hands. It also is the main reason why other sources of condition removal on Warriors can’t compete. Because they have cooldowns.

You make good points… don’t move traits around but rather make competing traits offer similar benefits to expand build diversity. I do agree with this, but it’s not something easy to do because then you make bloated traits… like cleansing ire.

While no one knows why the adrenaline portion of cleansing ire exists, is it at least reasonable to assume that it was put there so a Warrior wouldn’t need to get both Cleansing Ire and Burst Mastery to make real use out of it? This at least seems to follow the original point you were trying to make, right?

But then you go further trying to justify why Cleansing Ire should be nerfed and the adrenaline gain removed because the trait is too powerful? Thus possibly forcing Warriros into Burst Mastery to make sure Cleansing Ire was at least viable, right?

So now what are we left with using your logic? We could make it a 30pt trait, but that does nothing but remove build diversity (you mention it doesn’t matter because the meta builds have 30 defense anyway, but moving it will remove build diversity by forcing more people into the current meta builds, no?).

We can’t nerf it using your logic because that also removes build diversity because you’re then forcing players to get another trait to manage adrenaline gain (which also has no effect because the meta build also has 30 in discipline…).

We could put a cooldown on it, but how much should that cooldown be? 7 seconds so it doesn’t synergize with Fast Hands (I mean who cares, Fast Hands is a freebie!). We could make it 10 seconds so it’s no more useful than Empathic Bond or Guardian options (but then you effectively make it a passive trait because a Warrior can no longer actively know when to use it in which case why not just split the difference and make it remove 2 conditions every 10 seconds making the class even more faceroll?).

You guys need to get behind a real thing that makes the class overpowered and not try and manufacture something I think.

Is longevity in combat a problem? Move Adrenal Health out of the meta spec.

Is condition cleanse a problem? Move berserker stance out of the meta spec.

Is damage a problem? I don’t see how now that unsuspecting foe has been moved out of the meta spec and hammer was nerfed by 30%.

Harper.4173:

If he can dodge / block / blind your F1 you’re not going to remove – period.

But by you’re argument flipped, if the player is a good warrior, he won’t hit when you can dodge, or attack when you’re blocking, or use his F1 when he’s blinded. No class can keep someone blind, dodge and block all day long.

See, we can argue in circles all day.

unleashed.8679:

Introp.8465:

^ why does every skill be meant to use against every class? You take cleansing ire trait to mitigae condi damage. You can dodge out of big phys dmg hits, cant do that with condi spam on you.

Well thats wrong. You can also dodge conditions, you will prevent the new applies ones.
You probably wont notice it., but it prevents one or more new conditions that would be applied to you.

You probably can’t dodge damage from runes and sigils, beause their CD wont trigger, but thats an other story

Introp.8465:

thread is about warrior weaknesses. condis are main weakness, thats why 98% of warrior pick cleansing ire to mitigate it. If you yet claim that condis is not a weakness to a warrior, you must be inspecting enemy weapons and making big list every game which player to avoid ( if you play in spvp)

You can’t count conditions as a weakspot of the warrior.
They have berserker stance, cleansing ire and dogged march.

With that logic, you could say, that warriors don’t have any melee damage, because you could play them with bow/rifle, or the other way arround …

Those 98% are using cleansing ire, because they don’t have any weakspot then.
A weakspot is something you cant prevent (See necros lack of mobility, thiefs low health, guards bad ranged attacks, …) Those are weakspots in the game mechanic, that are implemented, so they can be used against this classes. The warrior was designed to have no/bad condition resistance. But unfortunatly he got those three skills and has one of the strongest condition resistance in game now.

I do count conditions as weak spot. You dont have berseked stance, dodged march and cleansing ire on your f1, you have to spec for it, on every single build u pick. 3 conditions cleanse on perfect scenario every 8s if traited is not that imbalanced, because you will hardly be able to spam condi cleanse, unless using bow and being not focused down. And how on earth traided 33% duration reduction on mov impair skills is good? People just reapply it.
Warrior weakness is highly telepgraphed skills, conditions and being kited if not traidet to counter that. + his f1 does damage. Damage. How unique is that compared to other classes? you can do damage with weapons skills, why you need adrenaline for that.

Btw thief low health? invest into max everything vitality – oh, thief has high health now. so now thief has no weakness following your logic

Atherakhia.4086:

While no one knows why the adrenaline portion of cleansing ire exists, is it at least reasonable to assume that it was put there so a Warrior wouldn’t need to get both Cleansing Ire and Burst Mastery to make real use out of it? This at least seems to follow the original point you were trying to make, right?

It hopefully increases build diversity because Warriors have different options for gaining additional Adrenaline. You could pick up Berserkers Might or Short Temper in Strength. You could get Furious in Arms. When using Axes or Shouts you could spec into Discipline.

I don’t think it was placed there because of Burst Mastery. However, the lack of cooldown is the reason why Burst Mastery becomes so popular in combination with Cleansing Ire. Not the other way around.

Atherakhia.4086:

But then you go further trying to justify why Cleansing Ire should be nerfed and the adrenaline gain removed because the trait is too powerful? Thus possibly forcing Warriros into Burst Mastery to make sure Cleansing Ire was at least viable, right?

So now what are we left with using your logic? We could make it a 30pt trait, but that does nothing but remove build diversity (you mention it doesn’t matter because the meta builds have 30 defense anyway, but moving it will remove build diversity by forcing more people into the current meta builds, no?).

I feel that Cleansing Ire is too powerful because Warriors to have access to alternatives. Yet, they are not used. There are only two ways to solve this: Buff the alternatives which probably would be acceptable for Mending. But certainly not for Shouts and Warhorn. Feel free to disagree. I personally think those traits are pretty good. The second solution is to tone down Cleansing Ire. You stated that it is a very bloated trait yourself.

So while moving up Cleansing Ire up to 30 would just make people invest 10 more points in Defense, reducing the Adrenaline gain might encourage people to invest more points into three different traitlines (Strength, Arms and Discipline). That’s build diversity, right? Of course, the investment would be higher depending on the traitline. But this also means that Shouts become more attractive in comparison to Cleansing Ire. Conclusively, Cleansing Ire would be less mandatory. It doesn’t make it less viable.

Atherakhia.4086:

We can’t nerf it using your logic because that also removes build diversity because you’re then forcing players to get another trait to manage adrenaline gain (which also has no effect because the meta build also has 30 in discipline…).

The Adrenaline change would indeed not affect the 30 points in Discipline. That’s true. That is where a cooldown could help. However, it encourages people using Axe (Adrenaline on Crit) instead of Hammer/LB or picking Shouts (Adrenaline on Shout) instead of Stances which both equals more build diversity.

Atherakhia.4086:

We could put a cooldown on it, but how much should that cooldown be? 7 seconds so it doesn’t synergize with Fast Hands (I mean who cares, Fast Hands is a freebie!). We could make it 10 seconds so it’s no more useful than Empathic Bond or Guardian options (but then you effectively make it a passive trait because a Warrior can no longer actively know when to use it in which case why not just split the difference and make it remove 2 conditions every 10 seconds making the class even more faceroll?).

While it requires you to to attack with F1 it already is a passive trait. A cooldown would increase the need for micro management, making burst skills and condition removal less ‘fire and forget’. Right now, you do not have to pay attention because you will cleanse the condition through your regular rotations eventually. You would still have a better control over it than Guardians and Rangers because you can actually time it.

Determining the cooldown is indeed a difficult question. If you set it to 7s Burst Mastery would still be mandatory when picking Cleansing Ire. Thus, it limits build diversity. I personally think that a 10s cooldown would be reasonable and Cleansing Ire would still above average when considering the rather low investment. It also makes builds without a very high Adrenaline gain more interesting. They currently are at a big disadvantage when running Cleansing Ire. This means you could pick different traits or weapons because fast Adrenaline regeneration would not improve Cleansing Ire any further. Again, more build diversity.

People need to realize that ‘more build diversity’ does not mean introducing more extremly powerful builds but establishing a better balance across traits and traitlines. And this can’t always involve buffs.

Atherakhia.4086:

Is longevity in combat a problem? Move Adrenal Health out of the meta spec.

Is condition cleanse a problem? Move berserker stance out of the meta spec.

Is damage a problem? I don’t see how now that unsuspecting foe has been moved out of the meta spec and hammer was nerfed by 30%.

But that exactly is the issue. It can’t be pinned down to one isolated issue. It is a combination of all of them. People have discussed it extensively and for me personally it comes down to Warriors not having to sacrifice anything for getting a very good defense. All eventual weaknesses Warriors might have are covered and, thus, no longer real weaknesses. From my point of view the main isse is the combination of Healing Signet, Adrenal Health and Cleansing Ire plus Berserkers Stance. The benefit this combination provides is way too high for the small amount of investment. And it gets worse when combined with certain weapons.

Longevity can hardly be adressed by just adjusting Adrenal Health. Healing Signet has to considered, too. Also, Cleansing Ire has to be looked at especially as it comes with Adrenal Health. I know that you personally would prefer a change to Berserkers Stance. But Berserkers Stance requires a lot more active skill and comes with a bigger trade off. People can counter Berserkers Stance by sitting it out and the Warrior has to predict a burst comming. Cleansing Ire on the other hand cancels out every condition brust because it is available that frequently. I’d rather see adjustments to Cleansing Ire than to Berserkers Stance.

I’m not going to talk about Hammer. It is a different topic (CC and damage) and it was a needed change. It also appears to be a reasonable and not overdone change since Hammer remains meta in PvP. PvE might be a different issue but CC doesn’t work there in general.

adding a 10 second ICD to Cleansing Ire would do nothing to the overall efficiency of the skill seeing as Burst skills have a default CD of 10 seconds. So the only “nerf” this would provide is the ability to use F1, then regain adrenaline from shouts/attacks/stances and swap weapons and use a different burst all within 10 seconds. At most, the “nerf” would make you always clean 3 conditions every 10 seconds instead of the potential 4-5.

To make a difference, the ICD would have to be 15-20 seconds and or have certain limitations, like specific conditions being cleansed and others not.

Oh and many players argue that there has been nerfs to warriors and any more nerfs now will break them. Well, vocal minority or not, warriors are too strong in certain areas.
As is, if we ignore thief stealth and the X-factor that provides, they are the only profession that can spec glassy, put 20 points into a single traitline, be able to burst you for 15k or more and still survive at the end of the day.
A glass cannon warrior is as durable as a PVT ele. But still does way more damage. Sure the ele may not be the best comparison in this case.

An interesting conscept would be to move healing power out of the defense tree and switch it with vitality from the tactics tree. Sure it is an absurd change, and for some builds, it would do nothing to change the situation, but it would make glassy builds be quite glassy, and more bunkerish builds stay bunkerish.

In addition to this, remove the regeneration from dogged march. This way, you still benefit from taking it, but it is no longer the “must have no matter what” choice as it will do one thing, instead of two.

It is not an exaggeration that warriors have too much too easily. However i do not think there need to be any form of mega nerf applied to it. Just some subtle changes here and there. Make the traits less “You must take this one” and more “bland” so they all seem to provide something without 2-3 being unquestionably stronger.

Prysin.8542:

adding a 10 second ICD to Cleansing Ire would do nothing to the overall efficiency of the skill seeing as Burst skills have a default CD of 10 seconds. So the only “nerf” this would provide is the ability to use F1, then regain adrenaline from shouts/attacks/stances and swap weapons and use a different burst all within 10 seconds. At most, the “nerf” would make you always clean 3 conditions every 10 seconds instead of the potential 4-5.

To make a difference, the ICD would have to be 15-20 seconds and or have certain limitations, like specific conditions being cleansed and others not.

I don’t think that nerfing Cleansing Ire for every build is the right thing to do. Less Adrenaline and an internal cooldown will mainly hurt x/x/20/x/15-30 builds and therefore weaken certain meta builds. Builds who don’t focus on a high Adrenaline regeneration, extensive weapon swapping and lower Burst cooldowns might not even recognize the change. But those builds aren’t an issue in the current meta. So why should they be affected?

Warriors will probably tell you that a 10s ICD will destroy the Warrior. You personally would prefer 15-20s or additional limitations. Hard to tell. 10s ICD would be a start. It could be adjusted later on.

As you said yourself: We don’t need mega nerfs.

I understand your logic, I just don’t see it in practice. Adrenaline gain is not that substantial without Burst Mastery. You certainly won’t be blasting a 3 stack every 8 seconds (I don’t run burst mastery). I’m also not convinced the other options for adrenaline gain come close to balancing out what cleansing ire offers, let alone burst mastery. So if you’re serious about removing it, these alternatives would need to be buffed substantially (as they’re certainly not worth GM traits) in their current situation.

I also disagree with the longevity issue not being able to be handled via Adrenal Health. A Warrior doesn’t really start hitting the area they’re really OP when until you factor in everything (traits, mobility, utility skills, 3k armor etc). But even with all of these things, the Warrior is still about even with the other top tier classes like Guardians, Thieves, Necromancers, and Engineers. We both also agree (sort of) that there’s too much in Defense. Moving Adrenal Health is a pretty good hit to the passive regen of the Warrior (removing it from the equation would effectively be the same as a 30% nerf to Healing Signet under max, 20% with 2 bars, and 10% with only 1 which are all more severe than the current 8% they’re already getting).

As for berserker stance, I’ve stated my opinion on this a lot. I’m simply not a fan of blanket immunities like this. Especially ones with such a long duration. If the Warrior didn’t need it, I’d change Endure Pain too.

Like I said above, I do generally agree with you. I feel like Warriors don’t lose enough damage when specing for bunker (not sure they should ‘lose’ damage, but merciless hammer and such in a defense tree is odd), but at the same time, a Warrior spec’d for damage doesn’t gain enough damage to offset the loss of their bunker traits.

Fact of the matter is 20pts in Defense is mandatory for the class to function right now. It’s over the top when you play the meta builds (which are 0/0/30/10/30 or 0/0/30/30/10 I believe?), but barely enough if you don’t.

There has to be some way to shave the meta builds down a little (because quite frankly they don’t need as much as people claim) without forcing those who play outside the meta to adopt a meta build (something the overwhelming majority of suggestions in this thread would cause).

Atherakhia.4086:

I understand your logic, I just don’t see it in practice. Adrenaline gain is not that substantial without Burst Mastery. You certainly won’t be blasting a 3 stack every 8 seconds (I don’t run burst mastery). I’m also not convinced the other options for adrenaline gain come close to balancing out what cleansing ire offers, let alone burst mastery. So if you’re serious about removing it, these alternatives would need to be buffed substantially (as they’re certainly not worth GM traits) in their current situation.

So you mean the Adrenaline gain of other traits got to be buffed if it got scrapped from Cleansing Ire? I’m not sure if this is the case. I honestly can’t judge it since I didn’t try it. However, if you buffed the other traits Cleansing Ire would remain more powerful than its alternatives. There would not be any change.

Of course, Burst Mastery could be nerfed as well.
But I guess that this is not what you are looking for.

And again, a cooldown would limit the usefulness of Burst Mastery. You could still use your Bursts as often as before. But you can’t abuse the cooldown and cost reduction of Burst Mastery for condition removal.

Atherakhia.4086:

I also disagree with the longevity issue not being able to be handled via Adrenal Health. A Warrior doesn’t really start hitting the area they’re really OP when until you factor in everything (traits, mobility, utility skills, 3k armor etc). But even with all of these things, the Warrior is still about even with the other top tier classes like Guardians, Thieves, Necromancers, and Engineers. We both also agree (sort of) that there’s too much in Defense. Moving Adrenal Health is a pretty good hit to the passive regen of the Warrior (removing it from the equation would effectively be the same as a 30% nerf to Healing Signet under max, 20% with 2 bars, and 10% with only 1 which are all more severe than the current 8% they’re already getting).

But where would you move Adrenal Health then? 25? This will make people go x/x/25/x/15-30. No change. The same would happen when it was made a Master Major to compete with Cleansing Ire. People would go x/x/30/x/15-30. No change. If you want to take it out of the equation you would have to get rid of it completely.

Of course, you could move it into another trait line. However, it would have to be at a higher position than 10. Otherwise people could just move 10 points of Defense somewhere else. No real diversity there. Also, Tactics would be a very bad spot because of the HPS Shouts can provide. Moving it to Discpline would not change the meta. Arms and Strength doesn’t fit.

Fact of the matter is 20pts in Defense is mandatory for the class to function right now. It’s over the top when you play the meta builds (which are 0/0/30/10/30 or 0/0/30/30/10 I believe?), but barely enough if you don’t.

But is this actually true? I don’t feel like only those meta builds are strong enough for PvP or WvW. Other builds just happen to be less effective. It’s not like they are unviable.

Atherakhia.4086:

There has to be some way to shave the meta builds down a little (because quite frankly they don’t need as much as people claim) without forcing those who play outside the meta to adopt a meta build (something the overwhelming majority of suggestions in this thread would cause).

That’s what I have been trying. But I can only talk of my personal experience. I don’t claim to know it all. I just enjoy theorycrafting and discussing ideas. People might disagree. And some people might bash me for my ideas. That’s how it is.

Xaylin.1860:

Atherakhia.4086:

I understand your logic, I just don’t see it in practice. Adrenaline gain is not that substantial without Burst Mastery. You certainly won’t be blasting a 3 stack every 8 seconds (I don’t run burst mastery). I’m also not convinced the other options for adrenaline gain come close to balancing out what cleansing ire offers, let alone burst mastery. So if you’re serious about removing it, these alternatives would need to be buffed substantially (as they’re certainly not worth GM traits) in their current situation.

So you mean the Adrenaline gain of other traits got to be buffed if it got scrapped from Cleansing Ire? I’m not sure if this is the case. I honestly can’t judge it since I didn’t try it. However, if you buffed the other traits Cleansing Ire would remain more powerful than its alternatives. There would not be any change.

Of course, Burst Mastery could be nerfed as well.
But I guess that this is not what you are looking for.

And again, a cooldown would limit the usefulness of Burst Mastery. You could still use your Bursts as often as before. But you can’t abuse the cooldown and cost reduction of Burst Mastery for condition removal.

Atherakhia.4086:

I also disagree with the longevity issue not being able to be handled via Adrenal Health. A Warrior doesn’t really start hitting the area they’re really OP when until you factor in everything (traits, mobility, utility skills, 3k armor etc). But even with all of these things, the Warrior is still about even with the other top tier classes like Guardians, Thieves, Necromancers, and Engineers. We both also agree (sort of) that there’s too much in Defense. Moving Adrenal Health is a pretty good hit to the passive regen of the Warrior (removing it from the equation would effectively be the same as a 30% nerf to Healing Signet under max, 20% with 2 bars, and 10% with only 1 which are all more severe than the current 8% they’re already getting).

But where would you move Adrenal Health then? 25? This will make people go x/x/25/x/15-30. No change. The same would happen when it was made a Master Major to compete with Cleansing Ire. People would go x/x/30/x/15-30. No change. If you want to take it out of the equation you would have to get rid of it completely.

Of course, you could move it into another trait line. However, it would have to be at a higher position than 10. Otherwise people could just move 10 points of Defense somewhere else. No real diversity there. Also, Tactics would be a very bad spot because of the HPS Shouts can provide. Moving it to Discpline would not change the meta. Arms and Strength doesn’t fit.

Fact of the matter is 20pts in Defense is mandatory for the class to function right now. It’s over the top when you play the meta builds (which are 0/0/30/10/30 or 0/0/30/30/10 I believe?), but barely enough if you don’t.

But is this actually true? I don’t feel like only those meta builds are strong enough for PvP or WvW. Other builds just happen to be less effective. It’s not like they are unviable.

Atherakhia.4086:

There has to be some way to shave the meta builds down a little (because quite frankly they don’t need as much as people claim) without forcing those who play outside the meta to adopt a meta build (something the overwhelming majority of suggestions in this thread would cause).

That’s what I have been trying. But I can only talk of my personal experience. I don’t claim to know it all. I just enjoy theorycrafting and discussing ideas. People might disagree. And some people might bash me for my ideas. That’s how it is.

Move Adrenal Health to Major Adept Tier. It’s too good just to be a Minor trait.

Kyon.9735:

Move Adrenal Health to Major Adept Tier. It’s too good just to be a Minor trait.

No, it will be weaker version of Backpack Regenerator.

Rednik.3809:

Kyon.9735:

Move Adrenal Health to Major Adept Tier. It’s too good just to be a Minor trait.

No, it will be weaker version of Backpack Regenerator.

Which it is. Where would you rather put it? It’s not as good as Cleansing Ire to be put on Master Trait unless you’d like to suggest moving Cleansing Ire to GM trait.

Kyon.9735:

Which it is. Where would you rather put it? It’s not as good as Cleansing Ire to be put on Master Trait unless you’d like to suggest moving Cleansing Ire to GM trait.

Adept is already overloaded with traits. It’s perfectly fine as 15 minor Def trait.
If anything should be changed – it must be grandmaster Strength and Arms talents (and/or 25 minor traits from those lines). Any reliable way to fight with condispam as zerker will end 20+ in def line from being mandatory for all possible pvp builds (and minor regen from AH/adrenaline gain from CI is not that good for zerker builds anyway), since Strength/Arms + Discipline lines have much better synergy for damage builds.
Currently you have no alternative at all – you must take CI even with zerker amulet and glass build or you WILL be shut down immediately by any competent condi user.

Nikkinella.8254:

Sorry i just had to laugh at the people saying there are better bunkers than warriors. It’s simply not true. I have a bunker guardian and warrior, and even without the protection and aegis that the guardian has, the warrior outperforms the guardian by miles. Its not even close. Warrior has a ridiculous amount of sustain without speccing for it. And if you DO actually spec for it you absolutely cannot die unless you have a whole zerg beating on you. Your damage will be pretty insane too as a condition bunker warrior. You can out dps damage specs of other classes while also being tankier than the tankiest specs of other classes. Yeah, warrior is balanced LOL!

Healing signet helps quite a lot of sustain thats right but this is to discuss warrior not guardian if you feel guardian is lacking sustain then make a new thread for it.

Rednik.3809:

Kyon.9735:

Which it is. Where would you rather put it? It’s not as good as Cleansing Ire to be put on Master Trait unless you’d like to suggest moving Cleansing Ire to GM trait.

Adept is already overloaded with traits. It’s perfectly fine as 15 minor Def trait.
If anything should be changed – it must be grandmaster Strength and Arms talents (and/or 25 minor traits from those lines). Any reliable way to fight with condispam as zerker will end 20+ in def line from being mandatory for all possible pvp builds (and minor regen from AH/adrenaline gain from CI is not that good for zerker builds anyway), since Strength/Arms + Discipline lines have much better synergy for damage builds.
Currently you have no alternative at all – you must take CI even with zerker amulet and glass build or you WILL be shut down immediately by any competent condi user.

Read the earlier posts, it’s pointed there how 20 points Defense is a complete package deal for Warriors thus becoming a mandatory requirement (along with 15 in Discipline) for every decent warrior build.

Warrior’s have small weaknesses…

Hammer Warriors can be kited fairly well, and GS Warriors lack control.

Even so, Warriors with their typical pvp builds have FAR more in their total package than other professions.

Part of this is due to having the highest base health and armor, while also having the best healing slot in the game. They can go full offense while still having the sustain of your average light/medium bunker. They have excellent condition removal, excellent damage, excellent control, nice active defenses, and stability.

Warrior traits are also much better than most other professions, as has been pointed out several times in this thread. Comparing cleansing ire to ranger condition removal 30 pt trait is a joke. Regaining 360 hp per second from 15 trait points.. really? Thats more regen than my CLERIC ranger gets from regen boon +signet utility slot. Thats more regen than the entire siphoning tree of Necro COMBINED, and the Necro has to be constantly attacking for his to work.

Basically, Warriors dont need to make any trade-offs at all. Want great regen? No need to use healing power gear, thats for lesser professions! Want great damage? Just use mostly zerker gear! No problem, you will still have more HP and armor than most professions… Want the best regen and condition removal in the game? just put 20 pts into that tree there.. screw all those 30 pt investments other professions have to make for lesser results, you are a WARRIOR!

ONE trade-off Warriors have to make is between control and mobility. That is pretty much it. Other professions have to choose between damage and survival, while also having to choose between things like condition removal, mobility, access to stability, control, or sustain. Warriors get it all.

Stx.4857:

Warrior’s have small weaknesses…

Hammer Warriors can be kited fairly well, and GS Warriors lack control.

Even so, Warriors with their typical pvp builds have FAR more in their total package than other professions.

Part of this is due to having the highest base health and armor, while also having the best healing slot in the game. They can go full offense while still having the sustain of your average light/medium bunker. They have excellent condition removal, excellent damage, excellent control, nice active defenses, and stability.

Warrior traits are also much better than most other professions, as has been pointed out several times in this thread. Comparing cleansing ire to ranger condition removal 30 pt trait is a joke. Regaining 360 hp per second from 15 trait points.. really? Thats more regen than my CLERIC ranger gets from regen boon +signet utility slot. Thats more regen than the entire siphoning tree of Necro COMBINED, and the Necro has to be constantly attacking for his to work.

Basically, Warriors dont need to make any trade-offs at all. Want great regen? No need to use healing power gear, thats for lesser professions! Want great damage? Just use mostly zerker gear! No problem, you will still have more HP and armor than most professions… Want the best regen and condition removal in the game? just put 20 pts into that tree there.. screw all those 30 pt investments other professions have to make for lesser results, you are a WARRIOR!

ONE trade-off Warriors have to make is between control and mobility. That is pretty much it. Other professions have to choose between damage and survival, while also having to choose between things like condition removal, mobility, access to stability, control, or sustain. Warriors get it all.

Its 360 per 3 seconds WHEN YOU HAVE FULL ADRENALINE. Not every second, every 3 seconds, so its 120 hp/s if you keep adrenaline full, which u never ever do. Either using it to cleanse conditions or do damage. And no, warriors dont invest into healing, because it scales horribly. Could you be kind and first get your facts straight before panicking on forums? And again, dont compare warrior to ranger and some inferior ranger build tbh. Want to be fair – take all classes and compare them to each other. Every class has its perks and weaknesses. If you want everyone to be the same, why bother having classes to begin with.

Thiefs shadow embrace 10 points into – removes condis in stealth. some thiefs build can spam stealths.
And we can compare thief to a guardian: thief has access to stealth, guardian – no. such imbalance right?( and no, other people placing fields for him is not him having access)

This whining goes again and again and again in 100 threads. this is getting out of hand.

Introp.8465:

Stx.4857:

Warrior’s have small weaknesses…

Hammer Warriors can be kited fairly well, and GS Warriors lack control.

Even so, Warriors with their typical pvp builds have FAR more in their total package than other professions.

Part of this is due to having the highest base health and armor, while also having the best healing slot in the game. They can go full offense while still having the sustain of your average light/medium bunker. They have excellent condition removal, excellent damage, excellent control, nice active defenses, and stability.

Warrior traits are also much better than most other professions, as has been pointed out several times in this thread. Comparing cleansing ire to ranger condition removal 30 pt trait is a joke. Regaining 360 hp per second from 15 trait points.. really? Thats more regen than my CLERIC ranger gets from regen boon +signet utility slot. Thats more regen than the entire siphoning tree of Necro COMBINED, and the Necro has to be constantly attacking for his to work.

Basically, Warriors dont need to make any trade-offs at all. Want great regen? No need to use healing power gear, thats for lesser professions! Want great damage? Just use mostly zerker gear! No problem, you will still have more HP and armor than most professions… Want the best regen and condition removal in the game? just put 20 pts into that tree there.. screw all those 30 pt investments other professions have to make for lesser results, you are a WARRIOR!

ONE trade-off Warriors have to make is between control and mobility. That is pretty much it. Other professions have to choose between damage and survival, while also having to choose between things like condition removal, mobility, access to stability, control, or sustain. Warriors get it all.

Its 360 per 3 seconds WHEN YOU HAVE FULL ADRENALINE. Not every second, every 3 seconds, so its 120 hp/s if you keep adrenaline full, which u never ever do. Either using it to cleanse conditions or do damage. And no, warriors dont invest into healing, because it scales horribly. Could you be kind and first get your facts straight before panicking on forums? And again, dont compare warrior to ranger and some inferior ranger build tbh. Want to be fair – take all classes and compare them to each other. Every class has its perks and weaknesses. If you want everyone to be the same, why bother having classes to begin with.

Thiefs shadow embrace 10 points into – removes condis in stealth. some thiefs build can spam stealths.
And we can compare thief to a guardian: thief has access to stealth, guardian – no. such imbalance right?( and no, other people placing fields for him is not him having access)

This whining goes again and again and again in 100 threads. this is getting out of hand.

I could compare Warriors to every professions, but that would take way too long. So I used Ranger and Necro as examples.

Healing scales horribly for everyone except for select skills like Well of Blood. Obviously Ele’s and Guards make the most of it, but Warrior healing abilities scale with healing power just as crappy as everybody else.

The difference of course is that Warriors get more HPS without gearing for healing power as most professions do when gearing for it. Balanced?

Also, please enlighten us as to the Warrior weaknesses? Yes every class has perks and weaknesses, but Warrior has FAR less weaknesses than other professions, and far more perks. That is the point.

Kyon.9735:

Read the earlier posts, it’s pointed there how 20 points Defense is a complete package deal for Warriors thus becoming a mandatory requirement (along with 15 in Discipline) for every decent warrior build.

15 in Discipline is not mandatory at all. Examples: typical sPvP meta condispike/banner (0-10-20-30-10) and one of standard wvw guild melee train builds (0-0-30-30-10, also can be used as sPvP pure bunker).
Fast Hands is very good trait, but you can live without it.

Introp.8465:

Stx.4857:

Warrior’s have small weaknesses…

Hammer Warriors can be kited fairly well, and GS Warriors lack control.

Even so, Warriors with their typical pvp builds have FAR more in their total package than other professions.

Part of this is due to having the highest base health and armor, while also having the best healing slot in the game. They can go full offense while still having the sustain of your average light/medium bunker. They have excellent condition removal, excellent damage, excellent control, nice active defenses, and stability.

Warrior traits are also much better than most other professions, as has been pointed out several times in this thread. Comparing cleansing ire to ranger condition removal 30 pt trait is a joke. Regaining 360 hp per second from 15 trait points.. really? Thats more regen than my CLERIC ranger gets from regen boon +signet utility slot. Thats more regen than the entire siphoning tree of Necro COMBINED, and the Necro has to be constantly attacking for his to work.

Basically, Warriors dont need to make any trade-offs at all. Want great regen? No need to use healing power gear, thats for lesser professions! Want great damage? Just use mostly zerker gear! No problem, you will still have more HP and armor than most professions… Want the best regen and condition removal in the game? just put 20 pts into that tree there.. screw all those 30 pt investments other professions have to make for lesser results, you are a WARRIOR!

ONE trade-off Warriors have to make is between control and mobility. That is pretty much it. Other professions have to choose between damage and survival, while also having to choose between things like condition removal, mobility, access to stability, control, or sustain. Warriors get it all.

Its 360 per 3 seconds WHEN YOU HAVE FULL ADRENALINE. Not every second, every 3 seconds, so its 120 hp/s if you keep adrenaline full, which u never ever do. Either using it to cleanse conditions or do damage. And no, warriors dont invest into healing, because it scales horribly. Could you be kind and first get your facts straight before panicking on forums? And again, dont compare warrior to ranger and some inferior ranger build tbh. Want to be fair – take all classes and compare them to each other. Every class has its perks and weaknesses. If you want everyone to be the same, why bother having classes to begin with.

Thiefs shadow embrace 10 points into – removes condis in stealth. some thiefs build can spam stealths.
And we can compare thief to a guardian: thief has access to stealth, guardian – no. such imbalance right?( and no, other people placing fields for him is not him having access)

This whining goes again and again and again in 100 threads. this is getting out of hand.

What class does healing scale greatly? And I believe every single class is being compared to Warrior because it is what Anet (and other warriors) consider as balanced.

So I think it’s fair that every single class wants to be on the same level.

Rednik.3809:

Kyon.9735:

Read the earlier posts, it’s pointed there how 20 points Defense is a complete package deal for Warriors thus becoming a mandatory requirement (along with 15 in Discipline) for every decent warrior build.

15 in Discipline is not mandatory at all. Examples: typical sPvP meta condispike/banner (0-10-20-30-10) and one of standard wvw guild melee train builds (0-0-30-30-10, also can be used as sPvP pure bunker).
Fast Hands is very good trait, but you can live without it.

I’d bet a lot more people would have at least 15 points in Discipline than those who don’t. But then again, just read it for the Defense part if that’s how you feel about Fast Hands.

to Stx
ive grown tired to repeating myself. done that too many times, and it is in this thread, seems like you dont read anything that is against your opinion.
If you compare every class to every class you get fair results. If you pick 1 class and compare it to 1 or 2 and take weak build, u get biased results. Maybe take 30/0/0/30/10 shout power build warrior to compare with others?? its still a warrior with build which is bad, since you take other class bad builds.

To flip this up, the main strength of a warrior its easy to play. Bad play with warrior beats bad player with other class alot of times, because warrior doesnt have hard to learn curve. What most of people whining should do is get good at game. Skill triumphs over any game mechanic. And to repeat myself again, any class has its perks, you are just too 1 sided to trash warriors to see any, because that would just be saying things against yourself.

And when threads like these gets posted with post stating that 80% of classes beats warrior 1v1, that whiners needs the skill, lp2 and so on, thread dies out and new one arises with same people stating same stuff – hurr durr warrior op better nerf, i play auto attacking ranger who never dodges anything and die to others. Just look at other popular thread that thief is op. Seems like every class soon to be op, and if you die to it – that was op who killed you not you lack of game knowledge or skill

I am not using bad builds in my comparisons, I am assuming typical pvp builds. Also, the build doesn’t really matter, what matters is what the profession has access to as a whole.

I presented arguments as to why Warriors are better than other professions(their traits are simply better, and they have far less weakness while also having more strengths), but you have yet to actually respond to those points with anything.

Stx.4857:

I am not using bad builds in my comparisons, I am assuming typical pvp builds. Also, the build doesn’t really matter, what matters is what the profession has access to as a whole.

I presented arguments as to why Warriors are better than other professions(their traits are simply better, and they have far less weakness while also having more strengths), but you have yet to actually respond to those points with anything.

Yep i can respond to your solid arguments. Id sway thief has better damage, better ways to escape death, are better looking, their traits are better, they can use pistol. Can you respond to my points?
You dont even listen or read, all you see is black in this thread and add some unproved bent facts to it. Like for example you had no clue u heal from trait every 3s not every 1s, you simply now hide it and move on changing the subject.

Im done here.

Introp.8465:

- hurr durr warrior op better nerf, i play auto attacking ranger who never dodges anything and die to others. Just look at other popular thread that thief is op. Seems like every class soon to be op, and if you die to it – that was op who killed you not you lack of game knowledge or skill

Now you’re just not making any sense.

Ranger’s wouldn’t be forced into playing shortbow #1 spam spirits if the profession had some of the strengths that Warriors enjoy.

People cry about thieves because they are the stealth class. Every MMO to date has a large group of players who cry about the stealth class, whether it is underpowered, balanced, or overpowered. This is not the same as the numerous complaints about Warriors. Thief is a high risk high reward class, very squishy, and they make trade-offs to get that burst. Warriors just have too many strengths mixed into one package.

No I don’t think anyone thinks every class is OP. I suppose every class gets complaint threads once in awhile, but usually due to a certain build being brainless(spirits, MM necro, PU mesmer), not because the build is actually OP, which is why Warriors are getting so much hate.

Introp.8465:

. Id sway thief has better damage, better ways to escape death, are better looking, their traits are better, they can use pistol. Can you respond to my points?

Yes actually I can, very easily in fact.

Thieves have superior burst to warriors, which they give up any form of passive survival for. Warriors however, have superior pressure(which they don’t give up passive survival for).

Thief traits are not better. 30 points in shadow arts nets thieves less regen than 15 points defense. Cleansing Ire is better than thief condition removal in stealth(yes the thief one is easier to reach I know).

Yes, I would recommend leaving.