Warrior true weakness
Ahem, you know mesmers can unload those abilities from 1200 range while we need to be at 130 (bar earthshaker).
Yeah… Warriors enjoy justifying their CC with the low range.
Yes, Mesmers do have ranged CC. But you’re missing out on some important details.
First, Mesmers bring a maximum of one CC (Daze, Knockback/Pull, Stun) per weapon set. Warriors get 3 with Hammer. This is a big deal. This means, you won’t have more than 2 CCs unless you sacrifice your utility slots. However, most Mesmers need them for their defense and group utility. Or would you like to trade two single target 1s dazes on a 30s cooldown or a single target stun on a 45sec cooldown for your Stances? Probably not. The opportunity costs of bringing a CC utility are only justified in lockdown/interrupt builds with the respective traits. While those builds have been discussed a lot recently they still remain very rare. Because they are difficult to play and easily countered by Stability since they often lack other capabilities.
Second, the cooldowns of Mesmer CC is significantly higher than those of Warriors. While they indeed can unload them at range, they are not able to spamm them like Hammer Warriors. This is a big advantage for Warriors and Thieves and a Mesmer will never come close to the amount of CC a Warrior can produce over an extended amount of time.
Third, while Mesmer can CC at range their damage is pretty crappy at range, too. Their damage is best at mid or close range. Even though Shatters do have a high range you’d better be close because your Illusions might not make it otherwise. This means the advantage they gain from the range is rather low. It can be used to close a gap or to create a gap. But it probably won’t kill your enemy. A Warrior in close combat however will. It can also be used to set up an attack. In this case, however, you are close to your enemy anyway. The maximum range of the skill won’t matter.
Fourth, most potent Mesmer CCs are single target (e.g. traited Mantra (frequency), Signet (duration)). Not the case for the Warrior. But let’s have a look at the ranged multi target CCs. F3 with ID. Unlikely, because Shatter Mesmers run IP. And still, the Illusions need to travel. Focus#4. Certainly a nice skill. But very hard to land at range since the 1s delay was introduced. Pistol#5 is bretty nice but the cooldown is very high. A Warrior can ES 2 times inbetween. There also is Sword#4. I love that skill. However, only in close combat. Because the projectile is too slow for being successful at range. Oh, yes. Chaos Storm. Good luck with that when you are looking for reliable CC.
Design-wise Mesmers probably should be at the top when it comes to CC and they do have very interesting traits evolving around interrupts. They indeed have some nice CC but they are unfortunately far from being best at it because of the cooldowns and the sacrifices they have to make for them. Thieves will outperform them on single targets. Warriors will outperform them when it comes to multiple targets. This also means that Warriors are probably best at CC since they will beat Thieves in every scenario besides 1vs1. Just by bringing a Hammer.
Please, don’t see this as whining. Mesmers are just not better at CC than Warriors.
I also never heard complains about CC Mesmers.
They can also do it from stealth or while hiding between their clones.
While they can cast it from stealth it will unstealth. You won’t want that most of the time. The Mantra and the Signet are the only CC which doesn’t involve a projectile or anything else visible (e.g. Illusions or a Curtain). It is harder to dodge when it is casted within stealth but it is not impossible. I usually do not waste my stealth for the slight increased likelihood of a successful hit. You also have to consider that the more stealth you bring the less CC you will have. A weapon set with a Torch doesn’t have any CC. Running Decoy and Veil will make it very unreasonable to slot the Mantra or the Signet.
They also have way too many ways to escape from our cc in case they hit.
This is false. Mesmers can carry two Stunbreakers at best (Blink, Decoy). One is probably more common (either Blink or Decoy). They are unlikely to bring Stability. The amount of CC Warriors can dish out easily counters them. This is totally different for a Mesmer because his CC has higher cooldowns.
Despites, this is totally irrelevant when talking about CC capabilities of classes.
stealth is not a damage avoidance mechanic at all; it’s simply a deception.
Wrong. You completely avoid all AI damage (pets, turrets, clones, NPC) and damage/harmful effects from skills with target requirements.
The former is an issue with AI being poorly designed, and the latter technically isn’t true because the only skills that REQUIRE a target are mesmer clone/phantasm skills. Now, you could somewhat argue that it makes it too difficult to hit with ‘targeted’ skills, but I’d suggest an entirely different solution such as making skills easier to aim manually.
The point still stands, however, that stealth does nothing to mitigate damage in any way. A thief in stealth will take the same damage as a thief that is not in stealth, which is in vast contrast to something like endure pain where you pop it and are suddenly immune to damage for 6 seconds.
stealth is not a damage avoidance mechanic at all; it’s simply a deception.
Wrong. You completely avoid all AI damage (pets, turrets, clones, NPC) and damage/harmful effects from skills with target requirements.
The former is an issue with AI being poorly designed, and the latter technically isn’t true because the only skills that REQUIRE a target are mesmer clone/phantasm skills. Now, you could somewhat argue that it makes it too difficult to hit with ‘targeted’ skills, but I’d suggest an entirely different solution such as making skills easier to aim manually.
The point still stands, however, that stealth does nothing to mitigate damage in any way. A thief in stealth will take the same damage as a thief that is not in stealth, which is in vast contrast to something like endure pain where you pop it and are suddenly immune to damage for 6 seconds.
The problem is that it drops target. That means if you’re using any projectile, you have a VERY small hit box to work with. If you had just switched weapon when they did it, you’re SoL.
[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
stealth is not a damage avoidance mechanic at all; it’s simply a deception.
Wrong. You completely avoid all AI damage (pets, turrets, clones, NPC) and damage/harmful effects from skills with target requirements.
The former is an issue with AI being poorly designed, and the latter technically isn’t true because the only skills that REQUIRE a target are mesmer clone/phantasm skills. Now, you could somewhat argue that it makes it too difficult to hit with ‘targeted’ skills, but I’d suggest an entirely different solution such as making skills easier to aim manually.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rending_Claws
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ghastly_Claws *
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Curse (and chain)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Corruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_Siphon *
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_Pact
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spinal_Shivers
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Epidemic ^
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon ^
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamestrike
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arc_Lightning *
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impale_%28elementalist_skill%29
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Blast
*: Will continue hitting if the target stealths after the cast has started
^: Will still put conditions on the Necromancer using it.
I only looked at two professions, but stealth completely negates all of these skills (the two Corruptions have a special note). That is a very significant amount of defense. If you’d like, I can continue with the other 6.
I also didn’t list signets due to their passive effects, but Signet of Vampirism is also negated by stealth (not that anyone uses it anyhow because of how bad it is).
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
stealth is not a damage avoidance mechanic at all; it’s simply a deception.
Wrong. You completely avoid all AI damage (pets, turrets, clones, NPC) and damage/harmful effects from skills with target requirements.
The former is an issue with AI being poorly designed, and the latter technically isn’t true because the only skills that REQUIRE a target are mesmer clone/phantasm skills. Now, you could somewhat argue that it makes it too difficult to hit with ‘targeted’ skills, but I’d suggest an entirely different solution such as making skills easier to aim manually.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rending_Claws
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ghastly_Claws *
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Curse (and chain)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Corruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_Siphon *
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_Pact
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spinal_Shivers
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Epidemic ^
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon ^
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamestrike
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arc_Lightning *
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impale_%28elementalist_skill%29
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Blast*: Will continue hitting if the target stealths after the cast has started
^: Will still put conditions on the Necromancer using it.I only looked at two professions, but stealth completely negates all of these skills (the two Corruptions have a special note). That is a very significant amount of defense. If you’d like, I can continue with the other 6.
I also didn’t list signets due to their passive effects, but Signet of Vampirism is also negated by stealth (not that anyone uses it anyhow because of how bad it is).
Fair enough, I haven’t gotten around to necro too much so I was unaware of those skills. But the point still stands that calling stealth a better damage negation mechanic than an invulnerability is still an incredibly stupid argument. You can adjust your strategy to damage stealthed targets. You cannot do anything but wait when someone has an invulnerability that cannot be interrupted.
Had to cut some parts to fit in a single post.
-about defensive conditions and other classes-
And they have those because they don’t have either the health or armor given by default to warriors…
I think Warriors are right on the mark in how much defensive conditions they can have, right now it is a matter of number balancing, and asking for pure sustain nerfs without offering other healing alternatives is a no go (The other healing skills are bad).
Or maybe there is one skill that’s simply overpowered, especially when compared to…well, anything else in the game.
And the only solution that will probably implemented is basically a “let’s make the active more overpowered than the passive, else no one will have any reason to use it”.
Poor argument, because if you establish that the warrior might not be alone than at the same time you or people who might be fighting said warrior might not be alone either. And how a warrior plays during a team setting is an entirely different discussion than the context of what you are asking which is pertaining to Warrior Weaknesses. I can just as easily say “Well a Guardian might not have a health pool UNLESS there is also a warrior with Defense banner nearby! We gotta nerf Guardian health pools because in a party scenario their weaknesses can easily be compensated for!”
Poor argument, i’m not the one saying that guardians are balanced toward the lack of defense banners. Whereas you’re saying that of all the classes that don’t have reliable access to that, warriors must be balanced upon their lack of protection.
Every profession… -cut- …is an easy tell.
Personally i would say they’re more powerful than the “pure immunity” counterparts, considering that you can actually do something and heal while they active, but that’s just my opinion on the matter.
Not much to argue about the rest, though.
The boons a Warrior can apply to a group are not actually that many, outside of FGJ and Warhorn the only buffs a warrior can apply are banners, which have their own entirely different issues. Ultimately, Banners are specialized in PvE and some SPvP specs.
At least banners work and they are reliable in what they do. I can’t say that for the counterparts of other classes (ex: turrets – broken since the start of the game, over 20 bugs still to fix, rarely used outside of the elite…that is, ironically, the less worse elite engineers have got).
I want you to name the other methods a warrior can cure conditions without Cleansing Ire. No, let me do that for you:
- Berserker Stance is not condition removal but helps with the condition pressure once you know it is there.
- Shake it Off cures a single condition on yourself and nearby allies every 25 seconds. 20 if traited for.
- Signet of Stamina can activate to cure all conditions every 45 seconds, 36 if traited.
- Mending is three conditions every 20 seconds. …Wait its a healing skill? That heals for a terrible 5k? Absolutely ridiculous.You know what’s missing from all of these? Sustained removal. Before Cleansing Ire Warriors had no sustained condition removal, every single warrior build, every warrior had a crippling flaw much to A-Net’s original motto where Warriors would be the class to have the most trouble with conditions. When conditions became more powerful, warriors became less viable as a whole, we became absolute trash. The image of warriors being weak to conditions made the profession the worst one ever in this game, there still is not a profession that was as bad as pre-buff Warrior, and I hope there never will be.
In a way, I agree that Cleansing Ire being the only removal we can do is a bad thing, if it were nerfed but another similar trait was made into a DPS tree like Strength or Arms to help alleviate condition pressure without the need to go 20 into defense, that would be superb!
Except that “sustained removal” warriors have got ended up being more powerful than the ones of the other classes that shouldn’t be weak to conditions by design.
So, if the weakness of the warrior got removed, as you’re saying above, where is the balance in there?
If you are indicating that profession’s popularity should directly impact how they should be balanced, then you are out of your mind.
Sure, but what if a class is popular because it is also more powerful and easy to use than the others?
In PvE (and partly WvsW) that’s exactly the case of warriors. Since the start of the game, and it only got better (or worse, as far as balance goes) with the time.
Fair enough, I haven’t gotten around to necro too much so I was unaware of those skills. But the point still stands that calling stealth a better damage negation mechanic than an invulnerability is still an incredibly stupid argument. You can adjust your strategy to damage stealthed targets. You cannot do anything but wait when someone has an invulnerability that cannot be interrupted.
Oh, I agree that stealth is nowhere near invulnerability or three warrior stances for defense, but claiming it doesn’t actually protect you from anything is likewise false.
Warrior has the fewest skills that are completely negated by stealth (just one, with On My Mark. Rangers have Hunter’s Call and Sic ‘Em, plus some possible pet skills), but other classes aren’t as lucky.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
And they have those because they don’t have either the health or armor given by default to warriors…
Armor and Health are benefits the warrior trades for things like stealth and spammable conditions. Warriors gain armor and an expanded health because they don’t have wonderful things like stealth or minions or things like that.
Or maybe there is one skill that’s simply overpowered, especially when compared to…well, anything else in the game.
And the only solution that will probably implemented is basically a “let’s make the active more overpowered than the passive, else no one will have any reason to use it”.
In what manner?
I have always wondered why you have to always compare Healing Signet to other professions and their heals, yet forget to include things like Effective Health, Mitigation, etc. I have spoken on this many times before but frankly you cannot straight up put healing to healing until you objectively cover mitigation and effective healths of the professions in question.
Poor argument, i’m not the one saying that guardians are balanced toward the lack of defense banners. Whereas you’re saying that of all the classes that don’t have reliable access to that, warriors must be balanced upon their lack of protection.
No, Warriors are balanced from their lack of Protection, Stealth, Condition spam and redundancy, and considerable boons. In exchange, we get Health, Toughness, CC, and both Raw damage and more recently fair to viable condition damage. Our healing, or I should say our sustain, should be flexible and capable of matching to our health pool. Right now and currently even after the nerf coming to the healing signet, having the sustain from the utility do a bit more than other professions is entirely fine.
Personally i would say they’re more powerful than the “pure immunity” counterparts, considering that you can actually do something and heal while they active, but that’s just my opinion on the matter.
Not much to argue about the rest, though.
I agree, but that in my opinion, helps make the warrior profession unique. They won’t have a total immunity, but can achieve it through a few utilities yet still be active in combat! That might be their biggest perk, but as I have always said about fighting warriors, once you know the weapon sets any warrior is using you can guess what to watch out for. The biggest defect in any warrior is just how easy it is to tell what they are doing, the Warrior profession has the most tells of anyone!
At least banners work and they are reliable in what they do. I can’t say that for the counterparts of other classes (ex: turrets – broken since the start of the game, over 20 bugs still to fix, rarely used outside of the elite…that is, ironically, the less worse elite engineers have got).
Don’t worry, warriors have a slew of defects, especially in the movement mechanics…rush, bull’s charge-
ANYWAYS, although the banner mechanics work, it does not mean they are ‘fine’. They are a situational area based buffs, which can only be moved using a sub-par weapon set. It’s clunky really….
Except that “sustained removal” warriors have got ended up being more powerful than the ones of the other classes that shouldn’t be weak to conditions by design.
So, if the weakness of the warrior got removed, as you’re saying above, where is the balance in there?
The original design can change. However I agree to some extent that the current state of warrior versus conditions is a bit better than the other professions. Cleansing Ire could probably have a cooldown associated with it to help make them a bit more suspectible, however the fact that conditions are strong needs to change as well. Balance should be a two-way street, warriors are entirely kitten on healing since the only heal they have viably good is Healing Signet (They should have other options).
Warriors can take a nerf, but not anything like what anti-warrior enthusiasts are trying to do. I want my profession to still be viable and not completely shut down from any content.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Warriors can take a nerf, but not anything like what anti-warrior enthusiasts are trying to do. I want my profession to still be viable and not completely shut down from any content.
I agree many people are going overboard with the nerf suggestions, but at the same time there are a lot of wars who make it sound like any change to war other than buffs will totally wreck the profession : /
Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
however the fact that conditions are strong needs to change as well. Balance should be a two-way street, warriors are entirely kitten on healing since the only heal they have viably good is Healing Signet (They should have other options).
Here’s a question for you: Why? Why should conditions not be strong?
I agree other Warrior heals need a buff. Mending could use it’s healing boosted (at least to match stage 0 Healing Surge) and Healing Surge needs its cooldown reduced (25 seconds should be first stop, re-evaluated from there. I feel 20 seconds is too short, but I could be wrong).
That does not, however, mean that Healing signet shouldn’t take a harsher nerf to its passive than 8%. Given that Warriors don’t need to do anything at all to keep the health regen from the signet going, it should be lower healing than the most similar #6 signets (Signet of Ether, Signet of Vampirism). Instead, even with an 8% nerf, it’s still higher sustain with no qualifiers at all than Signet of Ether’s maximum, which requires Mesmer to maintain illusions to be effective (not that maintaining illusions is usually difficult, but it does take some effort).
Signet of Vampirism is, perhaps, a bad comparison as its passive can’t actually be used to gain health.
The primary reason that conditions are strong at the moment has to do with a lack of visual cues for attacks that are prone to covering you in conditions (Necro’s signet of spite is probably the poster boy for this). Yes conditions should be a strong method of attack but for reasons other than the fact that avoiding condition burst is more about luck than avoiding a direct damage burst.
Regarding Healing Signet, yes it’s kind of silly that the active and the passive are basically the same thing at different rates. It’s the same situation as Signet of Might before they changed it (Used to be 5 stacks of might on activation). As it stands it’s far too passive in a class dominated by passive mechanics.
Callo Merlose – Revenant
Envy – Fort Aspenwood
“Believe in yourself … because the rest of us think you’re an idiot”
Envy – Fort Aspenwood
“Believe in yourself … because the rest of us think you’re an idiot”
The primary reason that conditions are strong at the moment has to do with a lack of visual cues for attacks that are prone to covering you in conditions (Necro’s signet of spite is probably the poster boy for this).
1 second cast with a big signet appearing over the necro’s head isn’t well telegraphed?
The primary reason that conditions are strong at the moment has to do with a lack of visual cues for attacks that are prone to covering you in conditions (Necro’s signet of spite is probably the poster boy for this).
1 second cast with a big signet appearing over the necro’s head isn’t well telegraphed?
Generally the signet animation tends to be a little erratic in when it shows up during the activation. In a low stress environment it does show up on activation. When a couple of people are flinging AoE’s at each other nearby however that messes with it as the game considers it a less important animation to prioritise.
To be fair I should have chosen an example that’s more the fault of the skill itself rather than the graphics engine.
But anyway the point I was trying to make was that high damage direct damage attacks tend towards either heavy telegraphing or a slow projectile speed. While not always true, a notable percentage of rapid condition application is generally through instant delivery (barring activation speed) ranged or targeted AoE attacks.
Callo Merlose – Revenant
Envy – Fort Aspenwood
“Believe in yourself … because the rest of us think you’re an idiot”
Envy – Fort Aspenwood
“Believe in yourself … because the rest of us think you’re an idiot”
(edited by Chaosbroker.3860)
warrior weakness? no mobility hambow, or sucks at condition cleansing
problem with warrior is that it’s sustain is given through passive which is bad design.
a warrior alone is ok to deal with, but when there’s 2 PTV hard to kill heavy armor warriors spaming AoE CCs which will eventually kill everybody on a node, now that’s hell.
Regarding Healing Signet, yes it’s kind of silly that the active and the passive are basically the same thing at different rates. It’s the same situation as Signet of Might before they changed it (Used to be 5 stacks of might on activation). As it stands it’s far too passive in a class dominated by passive mechanics.
I still think they should change the regen time to every 2-3 seconds to stop it from being THAT powerful, and maybe make it so the active not only heals you, but blocks the next 5 incoming attacks. I don’t know about you, but I’d roll with that active. Had it not been for Defiant Stance existing, I’d have suggested it working like that, with each hit you take while Healing Signet is active healing you. It would have been such a perfect healing skill then.
[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
Personally I’d prefer the passive to be based around healing on adrenaline gain and have the active be an emergency adrenaline purge for increased effect based on adrenaline consumed.
Yes that method probably makes it more powerful in the short term, but if you can keep that warrior from spending adrenaline …
Callo Merlose – Revenant
Envy – Fort Aspenwood
“Believe in yourself … because the rest of us think you’re an idiot”
Envy – Fort Aspenwood
“Believe in yourself … because the rest of us think you’re an idiot”