Guild Wars 2

Why are rangers still being mentioned in this thread :/ such hijack.

Neptune.2570:

Why are rangers still being mentioned in this thread :/ such hijack.

You may wish to read the second part of the first post.

Bryzy.2719:

The simple fact of the matter is, Rangers have sucked since beta – that’s 2 years of no buffs, no nice additions to the profession and pure neglect.

Mesmers still don’t actually suck like Rangers do, they just have a lot of problems, and these problems have only existed for a limited number of months.

The CDI polling thread a few months ago for “which profession is most in need of help?” – Rangers topped the thread by a huge margin. Mesmers weren’t even in the top 3.

Heretofor, Rangers are worse off. Not sure how Mesmers think they can be put in the same boat as Rangers when these facts are so clear. And yes, this thread has become a “who is worse off than who” thread. Even if Mesmers were to become as sucky as Rangers, we have been in this situation far, far longer.

What a load of nonsense.

Rangers have not sucked since beta. BM build was overpowered and so was the Spiritranger build. Twice has a Ranger build been overpowered that it defined the pvp meta.
So it has not sucked since beta.

And the CDI thread is exactly what i was talking about. People have had their heads filled with the constant barrage of messages that Rangers are ooooh sooooo terrible. And need the most help out of all professions. That people voted with that in mind.

You want to talk statistics? Here are some factual statistics. Last TOL, Rangers were far more represented then Mesmers and Engineers.
There are your precious statistics, top teams would rather run with a ranger than with either a mesmer or an engineer. Cant be the worst when 25% of the available professions are (considerable) less desireable.

But instead you insist on pushing on this dogma of “rangers are top priority”, and trying to kill any real discussion.

Rangers should simply level a mesmer in PvE, and do larger scale DEs at 80.

This would help them to grasp why at least some mesmers are unhappy with the game.

Hmm maybe mesmers should do the same. Personally i dont feel mesmers are a problem atleast in PvE. Ranger has a lot more issues. But they dont even compare to necro in terms of being total crap.

The arguement is irrelevant though. Most classes need help in some area. Some more than others and some in more areas than others. Theres no point in argueing which profession is worse. We dont even know what anet plans for mesmer and necro yet. So just be patient and wait for the relevant skill bar episode.

I switched from mesmer to necro as my main. Strange… ^^

I have no idea why >.>

The thing is, the question in the title “why are mesmers moaning?” has been answered. Reasons have been given.

Then it’s like, “well… you can’t <insert Nathan Fillion caption here>”

Terrahero.9358:

Bryzy.2719:

The simple fact of the matter is, Rangers have sucked since beta – that’s 2 years of no buffs, no nice additions to the profession and pure neglect.

Mesmers still don’t actually suck like Rangers do, they just have a lot of problems, and these problems have only existed for a limited number of months.

The CDI polling thread a few months ago for “which profession is most in need of help?” – Rangers topped the thread by a huge margin. Mesmers weren’t even in the top 3.

Heretofor, Rangers are worse off. Not sure how Mesmers think they can be put in the same boat as Rangers when these facts are so clear. And yes, this thread has become a “who is worse off than who” thread. Even if Mesmers were to become as sucky as Rangers, we have been in this situation far, far longer.

What a load of nonsense.

Rangers have not sucked since beta. BM build was overpowered and so was the Spiritranger build. Twice has a Ranger build been overpowered that it defined the pvp meta.
So it has not sucked since beta.

And the CDI thread is exactly what i was talking about. People have had their heads filled with the constant barrage of messages that Rangers are ooooh sooooo terrible. And need the most help out of all professions. That people voted with that in mind.

You want to talk statistics? Here are some factual statistics. Last TOL, Rangers were far more represented then Mesmers and Engineers.
There are your precious statistics, top teams would rather run with a ranger than with either a mesmer or an engineer. Cant be the worst when 25% of the available professions are (considerable) less desireable.

But instead you insist on pushing on this dogma of “rangers are top priority”, and trying to kill any real discussion.

Any time a Ranger build has been overpowered, it has been nerfed almost instantly.

Ranger has sucked since beta, I’ve mained it and I can attest to it. I’ve also played all other classes and can say with complete certainty that Ranger feels the most lacking in all areas.

You wanna talk statistics? Oh so you only presented me with TOL stats did you? How about ones for the WHOLE GAME? Rangers are the LEAST represented profession in the WHOLE. GAME.

Mesmers have better condi, DPS, mobility (in-combat), stealth, clones, far better utilities and especially elites. Rangers ARE top priority, and even if you think Mesmers and Rangers are on exactly the same playing field, Rangers are the most deserving of buffs and fixes.

Bryzy.2719:

You wanna talk statistics? Oh so you only presented me with TOL stats did you? How about ones for the WHOLE GAME? Rangers are the LEAST represented profession in the WHOLE. GAME.

Interesting.
The most recent official information we have is https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/1c2c9GW2_Anniv_Infographic-590x3215.jpg – which shows a very different picture.

Is it that only the so called “top priority” class is allowed to be buffed/fixed?

Oh and I’m not sure about that stat of least represented profession – I thought necros or engis had the fewest number of players – unless you’ve got a recent poll that shows otherwise, in which case I’ll take back my statement.

Edit: Ninjad! xD Ok it seems it’s even moreso not the case of rangers being least represented.

Carighan.6758:

Bryzy.2719:

You wanna talk statistics? Oh so you only presented me with TOL stats did you? How about ones for the WHOLE GAME? Rangers are the LEAST represented profession in the WHOLE. GAME.

Interesting.
The most recent official information we have is https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/1c2c9GW2_Anniv_Infographic-590x3215.jpg – which shows a very different picture.

“The FIRST year”.

We’re almost at the end of the SECOND year.

Try again with more recent statistics.

Bryzy.2719:

“The FIRST year”.

We’re almost at the end of the SECOND year.

Try again with more recent statistics.

Well, you are the one who said Rangers are the least represented profession.
I then pulled out the most recent statistics we have. We don’t have any newer ones, we lack the amount of data points necessary to extrapolate (plus you’re postulating that it changed significantly, so it wouldn’t make sense to do that), so what else is there to do?

Can you show us what percentage of played toons are rangers? Because the last stats we know, Rangers were the second most common, and Mesmers the least common. That’s about as far as I can verify any claim. You?

Carighan.6758:

Bryzy.2719:

“The FIRST year”.

We’re almost at the end of the SECOND year.

Try again with more recent statistics.

Well, you are the one who said Rangers are the least represented profession.
I then pulled out the most recent statistics we have. We don’t have any newer ones, we lack the amount of data points necessary to extrapolate (plus you’re postulating that it changed significantly, so it wouldn’t make sense to do that), so what else is there to do?

Can you show us what percentage of played toons are rangers? Because the last stats we know, Rangers were the second most common, and Mesmers the least common. That’s about as far as I can verify any claim. You?

You see this is interesting, because those statistics show nothing about how many players MAIN each profession. By the looks of things, it merely shows how many accounts have those professions in their character slots. Or perhaps it even shows something else. They are incredibly ambiguous and unreliable.

Ranger may have been one of the most commonly created professions at launch and immediately following the inception of the game, however at that point players had no idea of each professions’ individual effectiveness, so for all we know those that created Ranger characters could have switched their main play to another profession.

We will see what, if released, the end-of-second year statistics show, and I can guarantee it won’t be the same picture.

EDIT: regardless of who is the least and most represented profession, it doesn’t make my other points obsolete. Rangers have always been the worst profession overall.

You’re right in that the statistics show very little. A better one would be “hours spent”-per-class. Even more interesting would be to see “hours spent with this equipped” on a per-trait and per-skill basis, I’d love to see those pulled from the servers. :o

Bryzy.2719:

The simple fact of the matter is, Rangers have sucked since beta – that’s 2 years of no buffs, no nice additions to the profession and pure neglect.

Mesmers still don’t actually suck like Rangers do, they just have a lot of problems, and these problems have only existed for a limited number of months.

The CDI polling thread a few months ago for “which profession is most in need of help?” – Rangers topped the thread by a huge margin. Mesmers weren’t even in the top 3.

Heretofor, Rangers are worse off. Not sure how Mesmers think they can be put in the same boat as Rangers when these facts are so clear. And yes, this thread has become a “who is worse off than who” thread. Even if Mesmers were to become as sucky as Rangers, we have been in this situation far, far longer.

How does this make anything better? Mesmer started of very good. But soon people (almost everyone was a nub back then) complained how overpowered they were, while I never had problems dealing with mesmers, not more than with other professions. I think this is the case fro many, who mained mesmer since the beginning.

Even if mesmers had a good start. Bugged out skills, bug fixes resulting in nerfes and intended nerfes (one of the biggest still to the confusion glamor build, which is simply not viable any more and almost any related trait results even in combination with each other in a crappy build) had left the profession in a very bad spot.

Why do some of the main rangers try to deny that? We are not here to win a “what is the worst profession in the game” contest. The fact of the matter is that mesmer is in a bad spot atm. And just because the ranger has been in such a spot since the beginning, mesmers are not allowed to complain? That is just cheap and self absorbed. Get a perspective. No one was denying that rangers need buffs and fixes. But so do mesmers too.

Curunen.8729:

NinjaEd.3946:

Prysin.8542:

The moment watchwork portal device works in all modes, the mesmer class itself will be obsolete, i know this even though i never played mesmer beyond level 23

It’s sad when people like you think all Mesmer is capable of is porting. What’s even more sad is that there are a lot of people like you spreading these sob stories. Mesmer is not drowning in misery, it’s just the overreactions to the little stuff like the ileap update as if that was the issue with ileap.

Ask for bug fixes and trait merges, quit whining because you can’t spot the retaliation boon and mysteriously down yourself or that null field isn’t good enough. Its amusing to look at for only so long when Mesmer’s believe they aren’t viable in any part of the game.

Please explain all the viable build diversity available to us in the different game modes (stuff that actually works and is not either hard countered by something in pvp/wvw or totally replaceable by something in pve), because obviously I can’t see it.

You act like viable means its best in slot or something. It means it works, and does its job. I don’t fret about guardians being able to face tank pve content and still deal great damage compared to my thief but I don’t shelf my thief from fractals or any pve content. Same way I can make a venomshare build for wvw be viable however it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m having a blast and doing a better job than the rest (although mine does a good job for the most part).

You need to stop looking at other people’s unbalanced builds and look at what you can make viable.

-There are builds that can hold point for days in pvp even in outnumbered situations, there are builds that can roam between points and blow others up in pvp.

-there are builds in wvw either power or condi (usually condi) that melt people, and there are builds in wvw that can safely stand with the front line and dish out great support and moderate damage.

-As for pve, Time warp is hella nice sword ain’t half bad for stacking especially if its dredge, mass invis to skip parts, temp curtain to fix a stack, you have feedback on a utility and on raise which is great for numerous boss fights, you can trait for temp curtain to also reflect, etc. There is a lot of utility to Mesmer in pve content, a lot of it being very strong. Sure you can’t spawn a fgs and melt a boss in less than 10 seconds but you do have time warp which is pretty nice in comparison.

OP, I can honestly say that you’re being very immature and disrespectful. What you’re saying is like saying that gays don’t deserve civil rights progress because blacks (in America) have needed it for longer, or that there are more blacks than gays so gays shouldn’t complain because blacks are worse off. This is just an anology, but honestly this is what it sounds like you’re saying.

I play both mesmer and ranger. And necro. They all need buffs in different areas and I honestly feel like the developers have lagged behind in balancing or caring for them in comparison to their favored heavies and eles.

Anyway here is what I can say. Balancing mesmer and ranger is difficult because the pet component is a fundamental part of both of each class, as deathshroud is to necros. Its very easy to make these mechanics too strong in terms of balance, but at the moment the mesmer/ranger mechanics are hampered by AI and AoE, inadverdently making simpler mechanics like warrior burst or guardian virtues much stronger. A lot of mesmer mechanics are prone to bugs because of their emphasis on teleportation and AI. Rangers and mesmers are both severely underpowered for many of their roles.

In PvE I view them as fundamentally equivalent in value as to what they can provide, rangers with post might DPS buffing, and mesmers with high reflect uptimes which may not always be useful, and rangers can perform similarly when needed with axe 5. Time warp and portal are in my opinion trivial utilities and the last one is for lazy people who can’t jump or dodge fireballs or can’t survive trash runs.

In WvW, mesmer barely fits into the equation ever since the glamour spec got nerfed into the ground. Basically you veil and maybe portal, and spend the rest of the time running around in circles trying to kill eles/necros while avoiding thieves. Ranger on the other hand brings no value whatsoever to GvG teams, however its okay as a filler class and entagle bombs and extra water fields can be quite nice in more casual WvW, and the axe buffs could make them a bit better as a mid/psuedo frontline profession.

In PvP, both classes are lacking representation but are by no means terrible. Mesmer has the disadvantage of being unable to hold points reliably at all, and is even more netuered by AoE than ranger. Mesmers have to go full glass to be useful, and once you learn to fight a mesmer on any other power or burst based class, taking mesmers out 1v1 is trivially easy. Rangers in my opinion have far more viable tanky and condition builds than mesmers and can actually hold a point very well (I run settlers usually). The other day I solo Queed a team on skyhammer that had 3 mesmers on my condi tank spirit ranger. The only way all three of these mesmers together were able to kill me was by either Moaing me and immobolizing me in the cannon blast, or by pulling me to the glass wholes with focus 4. The rest of the time I just outregened them while they put up extremely high daze/stun pressure. I don’t think they were running boon removal so thats why probably, usually they’re a bit better against me for removing boons…

Anyway heres a final observation. On ranger, I feel like the ranger himself functions rather well, but the pet doesn’t and some of the traitlines don’t. On mesmer I feel like the mesmer himself doesn’t function rather well due to all the bugs and nerfs, and that the only way I get any form of damage, defense, or control is through illusions that die instantaneously. On Ranger, I at least feel like the ranger himself is strong, and self-reliant, and overall works like its supposed to. On mesmer, I just get frustrated and go play my necro or my ranger instead. If the ranger had no pet and the DPS to compensate, I’d have mained it long ago in a heartbeat. I like ranger because I like the playstyle of the ranger himself. I liked mesmer because I liked the design and aesthetics of the class, and while the mechanics seemed cool and unique, they honestly failed to impress me after playing other professions that are just as “bad” in terms of buffs that they need.

NinjaEd.3946:

Curunen.8729:

NinjaEd.3946:

Prysin.8542:

The moment watchwork portal device works in all modes, the mesmer class itself will be obsolete, i know this even though i never played mesmer beyond level 23

It’s sad when people like you think all Mesmer is capable of is porting. What’s even more sad is that there are a lot of people like you spreading these sob stories. Mesmer is not drowning in misery, it’s just the overreactions to the little stuff like the ileap update as if that was the issue with ileap.

Ask for bug fixes and trait merges, quit whining because you can’t spot the retaliation boon and mysteriously down yourself or that null field isn’t good enough. Its amusing to look at for only so long when Mesmer’s believe they aren’t viable in any part of the game.

Please explain all the viable build diversity available to us in the different game modes (stuff that actually works and is not either hard countered by something in pvp/wvw or totally replaceable by something in pve), because obviously I can’t see it.

You act like viable means its best in slot or something. It means it works, and does its job. I don’t fret about guardians being able to face tank pve content and still deal great damage compared to my thief but I don’t shelf my thief from fractals or any pve content. Same way I can make a venomshare build for wvw be viable however it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m having a blast and doing a better job than the rest (although mine does a good job for the most part).

You need to stop looking at other people’s unbalanced builds and look at what you can make viable.

-There are builds that can hold point for days in pvp even in outnumbered situations, there are builds that can roam between points and blow others up in pvp.

-there are builds in wvw either power or condi (usually condi) that melt people, and there are builds in wvw that can safely stand with the front line and dish out great support and moderate damage.

-As for pve, Time warp is hella nice sword ain’t half bad for stacking especially if its dredge, mass invis to skip parts, temp curtain to fix a stack, you have feedback on a utility and on raise which is great for numerous boss fights, you can trait for temp curtain to also reflect, etc. There is a lot of utility to Mesmer in pve content, a lot of it being very strong. Sure you can’t spawn a fgs and melt a boss in less than 10 seconds but you do have time warp which is pretty nice in comparison.

Oh I have always made and discovered my own builds, even if they turn out similar to other builds – never blindly copying other peoples.

Anyway, yes you’re right – it’s not about being best in slot, just being good enough not to feel either a burden or ineffective in any particular situation.

I’ve played shatter in pug dungeons for example – while nowhere near the most effective way to play, you can say it still functions. Because pve enemies are not other players, you can argue anything functions – just some more effective than others.

Mainly it’s bugs that prevent a lot of things from working correctly – focus for example. And that does cover a lot of problems – the reason why different weapons, skills and trait setups are not commonly used.

But I must say – in any large fight in wvw options are extremely limited and nowhere near as effective as they should be. When you say great front line support and moderate damage – can you give a build example? I am not aware of anything half decent in this department, since glamour confusion got demolished. I’m assuming run mimic, null field, feedback, staff or something (and have very little in the way of personal survival).

Curunen.8729:

NinjaEd.3946:

Curunen.8729:

NinjaEd.3946:

Prysin.8542:

The moment watchwork portal device works in all modes, the mesmer class itself will be obsolete, i know this even though i never played mesmer beyond level 23

It’s sad when people like you think all Mesmer is capable of is porting. What’s even more sad is that there are a lot of people like you spreading these sob stories. Mesmer is not drowning in misery, it’s just the overreactions to the little stuff like the ileap update as if that was the issue with ileap.

Ask for bug fixes and trait merges, quit whining because you can’t spot the retaliation boon and mysteriously down yourself or that null field isn’t good enough. Its amusing to look at for only so long when Mesmer’s believe they aren’t viable in any part of the game.

Please explain all the viable build diversity available to us in the different game modes (stuff that actually works and is not either hard countered by something in pvp/wvw or totally replaceable by something in pve), because obviously I can’t see it.

You act like viable means its best in slot or something. It means it works, and does its job. I don’t fret about guardians being able to face tank pve content and still deal great damage compared to my thief but I don’t shelf my thief from fractals or any pve content. Same way I can make a venomshare build for wvw be viable however it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m having a blast and doing a better job than the rest (although mine does a good job for the most part).

You need to stop looking at other people’s unbalanced builds and look at what you can make viable.

-There are builds that can hold point for days in pvp even in outnumbered situations, there are builds that can roam between points and blow others up in pvp.

-there are builds in wvw either power or condi (usually condi) that melt people, and there are builds in wvw that can safely stand with the front line and dish out great support and moderate damage.

-As for pve, Time warp is hella nice sword ain’t half bad for stacking especially if its dredge, mass invis to skip parts, temp curtain to fix a stack, you have feedback on a utility and on raise which is great for numerous boss fights, you can trait for temp curtain to also reflect, etc. There is a lot of utility to Mesmer in pve content, a lot of it being very strong. Sure you can’t spawn a fgs and melt a boss in less than 10 seconds but you do have time warp which is pretty nice in comparison.

Oh I have always made and discovered my own builds, even if they turn out similar to other builds – never blindly copying other peoples.

Anyway, yes you’re right – it’s not about being best in slot, just being good enough not to feel either a burden or ineffective in any particular situation.

I’ve played shatter in pug dungeons for example – while nowhere near the most effective way to play, you can say it still functions. Because pve enemies are not other players, you can argue anything functions – just some more effective than others.

Mainly it’s bugs that prevent a lot of things from working correctly – focus for example. And that does cover a lot of problems – the reason why different weapons, skills and trait setups are not commonly used.

But I must say – in any large fight in wvw options are extremely limited and nowhere near as effective as they should be. When you say great front line support and moderate damage – can you give a build example? I am not aware of anything half decent in this department, since glamour confusion got demolished. I’m assuming run mimic, null field, feedback, staff or something (and have very little in the way of personal survival).

Then Mesmer’s need shouldn’t be complaining about nerfs directly, it should be about bugs. After the ileap “fix” it was just a flare of Q.Q threads as opposed to asking htem to unbug the illusion’s leap.

I’d have to ask my guildie what the build was but it was based on mantras. He was up front with us, constantly staying afloat and still swinging with the ethereal field here and there. Sure he wasn’t bragging how he spiked someone for 7k+ but he was up front and those with him were noticing a nice little hps.

NinjaEd.3946:

Curunen.8729:

NinjaEd.3946:

Curunen.8729:

NinjaEd.3946:

Prysin.8542:

The moment watchwork portal device works in all modes, the mesmer class itself will be obsolete, i know this even though i never played mesmer beyond level 23

It’s sad when people like you think all Mesmer is capable of is porting. What’s even more sad is that there are a lot of people like you spreading these sob stories. Mesmer is not drowning in misery, it’s just the overreactions to the little stuff like the ileap update as if that was the issue with ileap.

Ask for bug fixes and trait merges, quit whining because you can’t spot the retaliation boon and mysteriously down yourself or that null field isn’t good enough. Its amusing to look at for only so long when Mesmer’s believe they aren’t viable in any part of the game.

Please explain all the viable build diversity available to us in the different game modes (stuff that actually works and is not either hard countered by something in pvp/wvw or totally replaceable by something in pve), because obviously I can’t see it.

You act like viable means its best in slot or something. It means it works, and does its job. I don’t fret about guardians being able to face tank pve content and still deal great damage compared to my thief but I don’t shelf my thief from fractals or any pve content. Same way I can make a venomshare build for wvw be viable however it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m having a blast and doing a better job than the rest (although mine does a good job for the most part).

You need to stop looking at other people’s unbalanced builds and look at what you can make viable.

-There are builds that can hold point for days in pvp even in outnumbered situations, there are builds that can roam between points and blow others up in pvp.

-there are builds in wvw either power or condi (usually condi) that melt people, and there are builds in wvw that can safely stand with the front line and dish out great support and moderate damage.

-As for pve, Time warp is hella nice sword ain’t half bad for stacking especially if its dredge, mass invis to skip parts, temp curtain to fix a stack, you have feedback on a utility and on raise which is great for numerous boss fights, you can trait for temp curtain to also reflect, etc. There is a lot of utility to Mesmer in pve content, a lot of it being very strong. Sure you can’t spawn a fgs and melt a boss in less than 10 seconds but you do have time warp which is pretty nice in comparison.

Oh I have always made and discovered my own builds, even if they turn out similar to other builds – never blindly copying other peoples.

Anyway, yes you’re right – it’s not about being best in slot, just being good enough not to feel either a burden or ineffective in any particular situation.

I’ve played shatter in pug dungeons for example – while nowhere near the most effective way to play, you can say it still functions. Because pve enemies are not other players, you can argue anything functions – just some more effective than others.

Mainly it’s bugs that prevent a lot of things from working correctly – focus for example. And that does cover a lot of problems – the reason why different weapons, skills and trait setups are not commonly used.

But I must say – in any large fight in wvw options are extremely limited and nowhere near as effective as they should be. When you say great front line support and moderate damage – can you give a build example? I am not aware of anything half decent in this department, since glamour confusion got demolished. I’m assuming run mimic, null field, feedback, staff or something (and have very little in the way of personal survival).

Then Mesmer’s need shouldn’t be complaining about nerfs directly, it should be about bugs. After the ileap “fix” it was just a flare of Q.Q threads as opposed to asking htem to unbug the illusion’s leap.

I’d have to ask my guildie what the build was but it was based on mantras. He was up front with us, constantly staying afloat and still swinging with the ethereal field here and there. Sure he wasn’t bragging how he spiked someone for 7k+ but he was up front and those with him were noticing a nice little hps.

mantra build at wvw? He decided to be not utility bot, not berserk for dd(he was easy at front), so… what he actually did?

Some things could do with being buffed.

For example blurred frenzy didn’t need both cooldown increase and change from invuln to evade. They could have removed the invuln and left the base cooldown at 10s.

Blinding befuddlement really didn’t need the ICD added when wvw confusion was already nerfed – again they went a step too far.

Into the Void with the ICD, again a step too far – it already has a small cast time so a 0.5s ICD would have been enough, instead of the 1s.

Those are just off the top of my head – I’m sure other people here can chime in with other things. It’s a case of always going one step too far – fine, certain things did need toning down in the past, but Anet seem to err on the side of overnerfing when it comes to mesmers – and then never rebuffing things to find the balance point. This is the problem. Compare that to say warriors, where they always err on the side of caution when it comes to balancing skills.

Anyway, down to that build of your guildie – sounds like a restorative mantra support build – don’t see many of those around nowadays. I will confess I’ve never liked full mantra builds – the mechanics were just too awkward, and you’re pretty much dead if you get caught on your own with a few discharged.

Anton.1769:

mantra build at wvw? He decided to be not utility bot, not berserk for dd(he was easy at front), so… what he actually did?

He was an aura of support. He wasn’t the core of our front, no one was. I won’t link any builds but our set up was a wide variety of odd end heals and constant stability. With his mantra build we got a little extra of both so he was a support “bot”. I dunno his weapon choice but again he wasn’t there to spike someone more so control with support. It worked fairly well, otherwise he would of not brought it numerous times and just brought his guardian instead.

No clue if he was having fun on the build but sometimes group comp isn’t about having a blast :/

Well, in my PvP point of view, I think everybody feels that Ranger is bad because no one knows how to play the class well… The amount of LB Rangers that I see is enormous, so that is a prove that no one knows what they’re doing.

People complain that Ranger don’t deal damage, have the worst traits and stuff and pet is a terrible mechanic. Yeah, maybe all these traits that are exclusive for pets really suck, but the rest is awesome as it is. All the traits work well with the porpoise of the ranger in GW2: sustained and constant damage via all the dodges / gap closes from weapons (SB/S/GS) and utilities and the help from pets. Ranger is almost like a Thief, but with lot more skillflor/skillcap/skillcelling. Thats why (IMO), LB ranger, the MOST played spec, sucks. It has no sustain, it’s just complete faceroll with some hope for burst damage. Maybe with the update it will work like that, buut as I said, Ranger is not to be played like that.

I main Mesmer, but for curiosity to see if Ranger was that bad as Mesmer is, I made one and… dude… I’ve never felt so secure with any class, even with Guardian. Rangers with all that sustain and dodges and con cleanse plus utility and pets skills and damage and that freaking mobility from GS/S + water field + low weapons cooldowns… compared to mesmers…. like… Maybe both suck on PvE, but for PvP >>I think<< that Ranger is complete fine.

Bryzy.2719:

Terrahero.9358:

Bryzy.2719:

The simple fact of the matter is, Rangers have sucked since beta – that’s 2 years of no buffs, no nice additions to the profession and pure neglect.

Mesmers still don’t actually suck like Rangers do, they just have a lot of problems, and these problems have only existed for a limited number of months.

The CDI polling thread a few months ago for “which profession is most in need of help?” – Rangers topped the thread by a huge margin. Mesmers weren’t even in the top 3.

Heretofor, Rangers are worse off. Not sure how Mesmers think they can be put in the same boat as Rangers when these facts are so clear. And yes, this thread has become a “who is worse off than who” thread. Even if Mesmers were to become as sucky as Rangers, we have been in this situation far, far longer.

What a load of nonsense.

Rangers have not sucked since beta. BM build was overpowered and so was the Spiritranger build. Twice has a Ranger build been overpowered that it defined the pvp meta.
So it has not sucked since beta.

And the CDI thread is exactly what i was talking about. People have had their heads filled with the constant barrage of messages that Rangers are ooooh sooooo terrible. And need the most help out of all professions. That people voted with that in mind.

You want to talk statistics? Here are some factual statistics. Last TOL, Rangers were far more represented then Mesmers and Engineers.
There are your precious statistics, top teams would rather run with a ranger than with either a mesmer or an engineer. Cant be the worst when 25% of the available professions are (considerable) less desireable.

But instead you insist on pushing on this dogma of “rangers are top priority”, and trying to kill any real discussion.

Any time a Ranger build has been overpowered, it has been nerfed almost instantly.

Ranger has sucked since beta, I’ve mained it and I can attest to it. I’ve also played all other classes and can say with complete certainty that Ranger feels the most lacking in all areas.

You wanna talk statistics? Oh so you only presented me with TOL stats did you? How about ones for the WHOLE GAME? Rangers are the LEAST represented profession in the WHOLE. GAME.

Mesmers have better condi, DPS, mobility (in-combat), stealth, clones, far better utilities and especially elites. Rangers ARE top priority, and even if you think Mesmers and Rangers are on exactly the same playing field, Rangers are the most deserving of buffs and fixes.

All you state is mere anecdote and speculation. I dont see this Ranger as highly unrepresented.
The only official statistic we have suggests the opposite and Rangers are very popular. Add to that the fact that Rangers were also not the least represented in high-end pvp (beating out mesmer and engineer by a margin) and saying Rangers are the least represented is… irrelevant.

There are two statistics who say you are wrong. Before you kick and rant more about how terrible you have it, try to actually come up with some facts backed by evidence.
Every time you keep bringing up your “facts” is just your say-so. And constantly your “facts” are being disproven.
I refuse to jump on your bandwagon.

inhearth.2038:

Well, in my PvP point of view, I think everybody feels that Ranger is bad because no one knows how to play the class well… The amount of LB Rangers that I see is enormous, so that is a prove that no one knows what they’re doing.

People complain that Ranger don’t deal damage, have the worst traits and stuff and pet is a terrible mechanic. Yeah, maybe all these traits that are exclusive for pets really suck, but the rest is awesome as it is. All the traits work well with the porpoise of the ranger in GW2: sustained and constant damage via all the dodges / gap closes from weapons (SB/S/GS) and utilities and the help from pets. Ranger is almost like a Thief, but with lot more skillflor/skillcap/skillcelling. Thats why (IMO), LB ranger, the MOST played spec, sucks. It has no sustain, it’s just complete faceroll with some hope for burst damage. Maybe with the update it will work like that, buut as I said, Ranger is not to be played like that.

I main Mesmer, but for curiosity to see if Ranger was that bad as Mesmer is, I made one and… dude… I’ve never felt so secure with any class, even with Guardian. Rangers with all that sustain and dodges and con cleanse plus utility and pets skills and damage and that freaking mobility from GS/S + water field + low weapons cooldowns… compared to mesmers…. like… Maybe both suck on PvE, but for PvP >>I think<< that Ranger is complete fine.

Exactly my thoughts! I played mesmer for the longest time as well as necro, and when I started playing ranger it just felt comfortable for me, and every time I lost it was because I wansn’t good enough, not because the class sucked, when I lose in mesmer I usually feel like some bug or overeliance on butterfly illusions was the reason why I died.

While the pet on ranger is kind of meh, I love the ranger itself. I do agree with you that longbow is an ineffective noob weapon, and I doubt that the next patch will make it all that much better, but I see a wealth of new possibilities with axe, GS, signets and entangle which makes me so happy. And also for PvE the new trait is basically a 10-15% DPS boost on frostspotter builds which is amazing.

I’ve been playing a settler’s regen/spirit condi build in spvp lately and omg its so tanky and wonderful. Ironically the only way I ever seem to die is from like 10K+ burn damage, but taking SoR and healing spring over troll unugent and traited guard might help with that.

In WvW, as long as I don’t get overrun by a Zerg (which happens most of the time T_T), I usually die because I know I got outplayed or didn’t play at my best. I know I can improve, and this is also extremely relevant in PvE where I’m still not capable of soloing Lupicus even though I know all of his attacks, animations, mechanics, and more by heart.

I’m not ashamed to say that I’m a bad player (but please tell me that I’m not bad…), but apparently what other people tell me is that I’m a really good mesmer. I ended up joining a speedrun group through LFG as a PUG and they picked me up because I was capable of doing what I needed to do and I knew how Mesmer worked.

The thing about Mesmer is that, while we are getting shoved down under the rug, we are still a Profession with a very, very high skill cap. We’re just getting a higher and higher skill floor as well… and we’re being forced into specific roles due to lack of variety, but that’s a different conversation.

My point is that as a Mesmer, sometimes you don’t think about it, but you can almost always be doing something better. No matter what build you’re playing, knowing your Illusions attack timers and position can help you out. If you’re playing a Phantasm build in PvE, you want your Phantasms (typically) to be in a safe place. You also don’t want to replace them while they’re attacking (unless you’re trying to re-stagger Wardens). If you’re playing Shatter, you want to know where your Illusions are so when you shatter they won’t just run forward a few steps then explode because they ran too long. If you position well enough (a little bit of luck involved), you can also get a chain daze off on someone (although if you’re bursting, it’s better to just get the 25 stacks of vuln then do a mind wrack, but still..)

Also played a lot of PvP matches of both Mesmer and Ranger and can confidently say Rangers currently have it far better than Mesmers (in accordance to how the NA Meta is).

I’m sorry that someone from another class rained on your pitty party. How dare they have an opinion about their class. But in all seriousness from playing both mesmer and ranger, ranger feels so much better and useful and not once have I been forced from a dungeon group. Traited frost spirit and spotter are useful.

Mesmer just felt broken in a bad way.

Yeah I’d probably say that mesmer’s are at least as bad as rangers. I mean bugs and AI aside since they both suffer from them, the mesmer just lacks in skills and overall utility. They just have so many lackluster skills/weapon sets. Mesmers aren’t really competitive in PvE dps, they have 1 spec for SPvP that requires a ton of skill to pull off what a thief can do with half the skill, and a WvW build that only works because it abuses stealth since the class can’t survive otherwise. The only things notable about the Mesmer are boon stripping, portals, and time warp.

I like my mesmer more than my ranger, but the ranger is currently a more solid class.

In WvW the Mesmer currently only has two uses:

1. Veilbot
2. Portalbot

That is the extent of their effectiveness in WvW.

Now if only phantasms weren’t nerfed back then into suddenly requiring LoS.

I’m surprised that no one has linked this here yet. Quite a good summary of the small mountain of little things that all come together to make the mesmer… fail to shine.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Mesmer-Bugs-37-Updated-July-29/first

Distaste.4801:

Yeah I’d probably say that mesmer’s are at least as bad as rangers. I mean bugs and AI aside since they both suffer from them, the mesmer just lacks in skills and overall utility. They just have so many lackluster skills/weapon sets. Mesmers aren’t really competitive in PvE dps, they have 1 spec for SPvP that requires a ton of skill to pull off what a thief can do with half the skill, and a WvW build that only works because it abuses stealth since the class can’t survive otherwise. The only things notable about the Mesmer are boon stripping, portals, and time warp.

I like my mesmer more than my ranger, but the ranger is currently a more solid class.

idk, as much as i would love to see many of the discussed ideas rolled out for my mesmer, in my current experience it is still viable in wvw roaming paired with a guard or solo if you are working on smaller objectives.

Aveneo.2068:

In WvW the Mesmer currently only has two uses:

1. Veilbot
2. Portalbot

That is the extent of their effectiveness in WvW.

Now if only phantasms weren’t nerfed back then into suddenly requiring LoS.

I’m glad you guys have some actual effectiveness in WvW, unlike Ranger which has 0 ability in a zerg. I have a feeling if they fixed all of the Mesmer’s bugs you guys would probably go up to the “in a good place tier” since some of the skills would be incredibly powerful without those bugs.

Hamster.4861:

I’m surprised that no one has linked this here yet. Quite a good summary of the small mountain of little things that all come together to make the mesmer… fail to shine.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Mesmer-Bugs-37-Updated-July-29/first

yes, mesmers take a lot of patience, testing, and tweaking to find viability and play. i know tons of people who just won’t allow them in dungeon runs, etc. (oh, this is sounding similar to the Ranger hate in WvW, no?). With that said, I still have a blast finding ways to play it. And if peeps don’t want to play with Screeket, well she can always take her bubble on vacay – its a big world out there. And Skyhammer is such a good vacay spot

RyuDragnier.9476:

Aveneo.2068:

In WvW the Mesmer currently only has two uses:

1. Veilbot
2. Portalbot

That is the extent of their effectiveness in WvW.

Now if only phantasms weren’t nerfed back then into suddenly requiring LoS.

I’m glad you guys have some actual effectiveness in WvW, unlike Ranger which has 0 ability in a zerg. I have a feeling if they fixed all of the Mesmer’s bugs you guys would probably go up to the “in a good place tier” since some of the skills would be incredibly powerful without those bugs.

Well, you have a spot for 2-3 Mesmers. It almost doesn’t matter how big the zerg is. You even hurt zerg dmg output, if the numbers of mesmers relative to the rest of the zerg becomes too high… Of course the mesmer has a defined “role”. But seriously, it feels kinda demeaning sometimes. I once asked the Zerg commander, if he wants me to run pure glamor, or glamor/shatter with boon stripping or pure shatter with boon stripping. The answer was something like: “Don’t care, take portal and veil”…

RyuDragnier.9476:

Aveneo.2068:

In WvW the Mesmer currently only has two uses:

1. Veilbot
2. Portalbot

That is the extent of their effectiveness in WvW.

Now if only phantasms weren’t nerfed back then into suddenly requiring LoS.

I’m glad you guys have some actual effectiveness in WvW, unlike Ranger which has 0 ability in a zerg. I have a feeling if they fixed all of the Mesmer’s bugs you guys would probably go up to the “in a good place tier” since some of the skills would be incredibly powerful without those bugs.

ummm..

Ranger has.

Waterfield

Blast finisher

Group might,swiftness,fury

AoE thats reliable

and a pet that can go with the front line to get you more tags.

…..But that’s none of my business..

Solori.6025:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Aveneo.2068:

In WvW the Mesmer currently only has two uses:

1. Veilbot
2. Portalbot

That is the extent of their effectiveness in WvW.

Now if only phantasms weren’t nerfed back then into suddenly requiring LoS.

I’m glad you guys have some actual effectiveness in WvW, unlike Ranger which has 0 ability in a zerg. I have a feeling if they fixed all of the Mesmer’s bugs you guys would probably go up to the “in a good place tier” since some of the skills would be incredibly powerful without those bugs.

ummm..

Ranger has.

Waterfield

Blast finisher

Group might,swiftness,fury

AoE thats reliable

and a pet that can go with the front line to get you more tags.

…..But that’s none of my business..

Everything you said I agree with except for the AoE. Barrage doesn’t do it imo. The axe buff and maul buff will help a lot with the reliable AoE, and the entangle cooldown buff is a godsend, but I doubt those things will warrant a slot for Rangers in a GvG team, the only thing I could see working there is a gimkicky moment of clarity sw/axe gank squad build, but when you have thieves DO eles and axe warriors there wouldn’t be a point when there’s only 3 spots for gank in a 15 man team.

I’m working on an axe/GS survival oriented psuedofrontline ranger build for when the patch hits. It basically relies on immobilize from survival skills, might stacking with hoelbrak runes, and sustained cleave damage on the edge of fights. And water field is very nice in general. I’m not going to use the longbow because it isolates me from my group, which means I’d be unable to share boons and recovery, and I’d be picked off easily by gank and I’d be left in the dust whenever our group peels out. Swoop will work great to ensure mobility when peeling, and there should be no reason to die when lightning reflexes or Sos aren’t on cooldown.

Ranger suck.
Mesmers blow.

Either way you’re f***ed.

Buffs/fixes for all please.

TyPin.9860:

Well, you have a spot for 2-3 Mesmers

Its thieves too, in the grand scheme of things more than, lets say, 5 mesmers and thieves on a map make you waste zerg/group potential.

TyPin.9860:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Aveneo.2068:

In WvW the Mesmer currently only has two uses:

1. Veilbot
2. Portalbot

That is the extent of their effectiveness in WvW.

Now if only phantasms weren’t nerfed back then into suddenly requiring LoS.

I’m glad you guys have some actual effectiveness in WvW, unlike Ranger which has 0 ability in a zerg. I have a feeling if they fixed all of the Mesmer’s bugs you guys would probably go up to the “in a good place tier” since some of the skills would be incredibly powerful without those bugs.

Well, you have a spot for 2-3 Mesmers. It almost doesn’t matter how big the zerg is. You even hurt zerg dmg output, if the numbers of mesmers relative to the rest of the zerg becomes too high… Of course the mesmer has a defined “role”. But seriously, it feels kinda demeaning sometimes. I once asked the Zerg commander, if he wants me to run pure glamor, or glamor/shatter with boon stripping or pure shatter with boon stripping. The answer was something like: “Don’t care, take portal and veil”…

Stick with guildies and whomever is commanding the raid, they tend to have more knowledge on Mesmer builds (or at least the ones I run with do).

Depends on the spec PU and Phant has nothing to complain about really, other than Phant being the most DPS a mes can do in a dungeon and still fall behind.
Mostly only shatter mesmers complain tho, and if your a ranger and you lose to shatter you are doing it wrong, outstaying your welcome, or just completely out classes and out played.

They both need buffs but Mesmers (atleast shatter) have fallen behind pretty far, their defensive mechanic is a gimmic no one other than A-net devs n’ Testers, and ppl below rank 20 for spvp on the old system fell for. They are out bursted by damage classes and specs, and are far outlasted in attrition fights. This is all considering you have to set up to do anything decent, and it’s easy to disrupt or avoid. Mesmers were only the king of 1v1s when no one knew what to do against them.

Phants and Utility seemingly OP to everyone who doesn’t actually know how to fight it, and the trope of the stereotype is what influenced design decision against the class.

But in the long run Phants don’t do that much unless you spec into it pretty hard, and are still just fodder. Also they attack less frequently, and do over all less DPS than a ranger with a canine (unless you have 3 out at one time on a rotation of one after the other as phant build)
and as for utility? Well super long cool downs with very little effect individually… and we’re talking about 3 of all the utilities being portal, veil, and illusion of life. And 1 elite being Time warp.

So we get nerfed and held back, while other classes can doge their hearts away. Can heal a ton of damage over time(both of which ranger has access to), spam blocks and invulns back to back, can warp through LoS, AoE hard, or just over all do more damage and sometimes while being tanky.

Remember when blurred frenzy was nerfed cuz they thought it was OP? Well that stacked on top of vigor on crit nerfs are considered needed, but then s/d Thieves who can do more damage with less set up gets to no risk evade spam with an uninterruptable heal?

Now this isn’t to say mesmers don’t have their advantages like boon strips, body blocks and good access to reflect(altho viable heavy reflect needs proper speccing and that likes to sometimes be ineffective due to consistently breaking bugs.) But the problem is that you can replace a mesmer in a group for virtually anything unless you want one of their utilities which is really only a “every so often” thing… and with consistent team fights, another no risk tanky DPS or another thief or full bunk is going to be a lot more effective.

And that’s not even the end of it, we have a slew of bugs that have been problematic since release, and that includes our phantasms breaking or not spawning which is a good chunk of our damage. But as an example for how mesmers are treated in terms of ranger vs mes: I get ranger sword has been problematic fixed and broken again ect. But at least you can fix that kind of thing by turning off auto attack and it makes it better. What does mes get as a solution to our bugged skill since release and is somtimes a tie in for the bread and butter of a spec? A nerf that makes it less effective when it was already a struggle to use.

TL:DR Mesmer is the class if Stealth for a thief had foot prints or was a faded semi invisible character. Or if Necro’s death shroud before the changes was only half the HP. and still does less dmg at the cost of utility that ultimately isn’t a fair trade off.

(Excuse poor grammar.)

Solori.6025:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Aveneo.2068:

In WvW the Mesmer currently only has two uses:

1. Veilbot
2. Portalbot

That is the extent of their effectiveness in WvW.

Now if only phantasms weren’t nerfed back then into suddenly requiring LoS.

I’m glad you guys have some actual effectiveness in WvW, unlike Ranger which has 0 ability in a zerg. I have a feeling if they fixed all of the Mesmer’s bugs you guys would probably go up to the “in a good place tier” since some of the skills would be incredibly powerful without those bugs.

ummm..

Ranger has.

Waterfield

Blast finisher

Group might,swiftness,fury

AoE thats reliable

and a pet that can go with the front line to get you more tags.

…..But that’s none of my business..

Staff elementalists can do all that and better.

Pets dies 99% of the time, so their advantage is no better than an elementalist with no pet at all.

runeblade.7514:

Solori.6025:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Aveneo.2068:

In WvW the Mesmer currently only has two uses:

1. Veilbot
2. Portalbot

That is the extent of their effectiveness in WvW.

Now if only phantasms weren’t nerfed back then into suddenly requiring LoS.

I’m glad you guys have some actual effectiveness in WvW, unlike Ranger which has 0 ability in a zerg. I have a feeling if they fixed all of the Mesmer’s bugs you guys would probably go up to the “in a good place tier” since some of the skills would be incredibly powerful without those bugs.

ummm..

Ranger has.

Waterfield

Blast finisher

Group might,swiftness,fury

AoE thats reliable

and a pet that can go with the front line to get you more tags.

…..But that’s none of my business..

Staff elementalists can do all that and better.

Pets dies 99% of the time, so their advantage is no better than an elementalist with no pet at all.

true…now lets compare the mesmer to ele in a zerg fight.

It’s actually worse off than the ranger.
It’s either veil bot + port or gtfo.

A ranger doesn’t have to run specific utilities or a specific build.
You have the option to run lowered cooldowns and have a pretty nice AoE from longbow.
And with the buffs to axe you will be bouncing them around with a perma 15 stacks of might.

Both classes need buffs.
Both classes need help ( like who takes a ranger into a dungeon over a warr or thief?)

But to say " O ranger is in a worse spot" then not have evidence to prove that. Then to be proven wrong. Then to continue saying ranger is worse then mesmer in EVERYTHING when it’s clear that in most game modes you are better off with more rangers vs mesmer’s

It’s a little silly.

Everyone needs buffs…

Except guardian

They are in a “good” place.

Mayama.1854:

Its thieves too, in the grand scheme of things more than, lets say, 5 mesmers and thieves on a map make you waste zerg/group potential.

It’s a lot of classes, really.

The thing is, I don’t think the devs looked at DAoC too much for how it did it’s RvR-balance.
WvW balance is not done via equalizing each classes CC/Damage/Sustain potential like you’d balance sPvP (and indirectly PvE, though you also need to tweak the mobs there). Instead, something like WvW is balanced by tweaking two values:

• How well does this class scale from group to zerg combat? 5 players, 15 players, 50 players, 100 players, does the class always offer something which befits its design?
• Does the class have a “niche” it has to fill, and this niche expands the more non-class-X players there?

The second is where currently GW2 WvW (And PvE, really) suffers because the “holy trinity” of Warrior + Guardian + Elementalist performs insanely well and covers everything you need to all kinds of warfare.
It got scaling (Warriors stack exceptionally well with themselves assuming Guardians and Eles are there to buff/combo), it got defence, it got CC, it got buffs, combo fields including a unique one you need Eles for either way, FGS/IB (which is crucial in PvE), everything.

And with that, the other 5 classes will inherently not balance in WvW because there’s no niche those 3 classes really need them for. Mesmers have a teensy tiny one with Veil but due to Veil’s nature it violates the other requirement of balance, scaling properly. You need one~two Mesmers for Veil, that’s it. Independent of team size.
There’s also Portal , but after the culling change it usually helps the attacked party more than the attacking one. It has logistical value, granted. Scaling is again way off but not as bad as Veil.

What WvW needs is for the gods in red to take it serious. All they seem to care about as far as we can tell is sPvP. And it’s not even that WvW-balance-changes would impact sPvP all that much as the team size there is so small that the most important point of WvW balance wouldn’t even matter.

Carighan.6758:

alot of text

Well engi/necro have their zerg niche too. Ive seen some guilds on my server run full condition zergs and necro/engis are very good at spamming it at the enemy zerg.

Mayama.1854:

Carighan.6758:

alot of text

Well engi/necro have their zerg niche too. Ive seen some guilds on my server run full condition zergs and necro/engis are very good at spamming it at the enemy zerg.

Well condition engis and necros only scale well in huge amounts which is bad since you can’t bring more heavies or eles. This is why engineers are rarely taken by organized groups and idk if the FT buffs will fix that.

Carighan forgot to mention the importance of taking POWER necros with Wells for organized WvW groups. Wells are needed for bombs to be effective and it’s called the GWEN meta for a reason, not the GEW meta lol.

Bryzy.2719:

You’re right in that Rangers do not have a single build that is incredibly strong; nor, might I add, do they have a build that another profession can’t do better. This is the precise reason Rangers are unwanted in PvE

The only reasons rangers are unwanted in PvE are 1) people’s lack of knowledge about what ranger can bring and 2) ranger players own lack of knowledge about what their class can do.

Edit: and a second look tells me you’re one of those people.

Lazze.9870:

Bryzy.2719:

You’re right in that Rangers do not have a single build that is incredibly strong; nor, might I add, do they have a build that another profession can’t do better. This is the precise reason Rangers are unwanted in PvE

The only reasons rangers are unwanted in PvE are 1) people’s lack of knowledge about what ranger can bring and 2) ranger players own lack of knowledge about what their class can do.

I thought it was the lack of group support options outside of spirits (which are easily killed) and shouts through that one trait in the Nature Magic line.

So after reading though all this you guys agree to disagree which class has it worse but know both have issues.

You know what the right move would be? Get both fixed and finally get anet to stop balancing only once every 6 month cough kill pvp cough