Guild Wars 2

Hello, I tried to find a similar discussion but I was not able.

I was going to buy the 800 gems pack when I noticed that inserting any european country changed the price from 10$ to 10€.
How’s that possible? Why does North American players pay less for the same amount of gems? I am sure Arenanet is aware of currency change.

I do play from Europe and I really think that this isn’t fair towards european players.
What will happen if I play in Europe (in a european server) and do pay in dollars?

Thank you in advance, I am really confused here.

Sadly this kinda of math has become the norm in online games over the last few years.. I don’t see it disapering anytime soon, regardless of how idiotic it is.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

Sadly this kinda of math has become the norm in online games over the last few years.. I don’t see it disapering anytime soon, regardless of how idiotic it is.

I’d guess that different taxes (don’t know the correct tax name here) in different regions influence that course as well- a bit atleast.

obviously there are diffrences, but there is no doubt they are no where near this clearcut

It’s not taxes i assure you mate. It’s the policy of every new big game over the past few years. Valve has implemented this and it was a big issue for the customers at first…there were even groups for protest with the name “1$ is not 1€”, but nothing changed and will not as it has become “normal” even for the big company’s.

I am in this camp as well, but sadly this reasoning will not go away. Why? Because apparently they can get away with it.

There is the reasoning of fixing prices based on the nominal purchasing power of the average customer.

I can understand it for software products that have some overhead for european markets where language needs to be translated etc. (if the discrepancy isn’t too large) like for example the GW2 base price but here we are talking about an entirely virtual product.

There is nothing here that would warrant supporting the 1EUR = 1USD ratio.
Even the billing system stays the same across the board.

I think it would benefit them if they actually made the ratio fair.
It would create that sense of fairness and thus increase the likelihood of the customer spending money.

I understand, what will happen if I purchase in USD instead of EUR?
Will I be able to use the gems while playing in Europe?

I agree this is slightly frustrating being a UK player we always pay more for products than most places. But hey they’re allowed to do this to their customers. It isn’t going to change. Maybe if there was a mass protest across Europe and a boycott of purchasing products with pricing like this but I doubt that will happen…

happyjedi.1372:

I understand, what will happen if I purchase in USD instead of EUR?
Will I be able to use the gems while playing in Europe?

Nope…if you are from Europe you get charged in Euro period. You cant pick your poison.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

obviously there are diffrences, but there is no doubt they are no where near this clearcut

In other games usually the VAT did a main part of the price difference between € and $.

Ohliufff.8160:

happyjedi.1372:

I understand, what will happen if I purchase in USD instead of EUR?
Will I be able to use the gems while playing in Europe?

Nope…if you are from Europe you get charged in Euro period. You cant pick your poison.

You could still buy a gem card for dollars I guess. And don’t mistake me, I’m from europe as well

woot! Gem Card Imports to europe! sounds like a business opportunity lol

Just don’t buy any gems with real money. Problem solved.

It seems I am not the only one confused here.
Does anyone actually tried to purchase gems in USD while playing from Europe?

There was a post about this from Mike O’Brien when the same question was raised just after release.

US dollar prices are displayed exclusive of sales tax, which is then added on to the price you pay later in the checkout process.

Euro prices are displayed inclusive of VAT, which is charged at 20% because ArenaNet’s EU operation is based in the UK, which has %20 VAT rate.

10 Eur / 1.2 = 8.3333333 Euros.

So Arenanet get 8.333 Euros when you spend 10.

Current exchange rate is 1 dollar = 0.75 Euro. When the game launched mid 2012, the exchange rate was actually 1 Dollar = 0.8x Euro, very close to what the 1 to 1 conversion works out at without the VAT.

It would be unwieldy to continually adjust prices based on exchange rate fluctuations, so 1 to 1 seems to me to be a perfectly sensible conversion.

At this juncture I should point out that if you buy in GBP, then you are getting the short end of the stick, because in that case they are charging more than just the cost of the VAT extra.

ConfusedDave.4271:

There was a post about this from Mike O’Brien when the same question was raised just after release.

US dollar prices are displayed exclusive of sales tax, which is then added on to the price you pay later in the checkout process.

Euro prices are displayed inclusive of VAT, which is charged at 20% because ArenaNet’s EU operation is based in the UK, which has %20 VAT rate.

10 Eur / 1.2 = 8.3333333 Euros.

So Arenanet get 8.333 Euros when you spend 10.

Current exchange rate is 1 dollar = 0.75 Euro. When the game launched mid 2012, the exchange rate was actually 1 Dollar = 0.8x Euro, very close to what the 1 to 1 conversion works out at without the VAT.

It would be unwieldy to continually adjust prices based on exchange rate fluctuations, so 1 to 1 seems to me to be a perfectly sensible conversion.

At this juncture I should point out that if you buy in GBP, then you are getting the short end of the stick, because in that case they are charging more than just the cost of the VAT extra.

Thanks for the clarification regarding VAT

ConfusedDave.4271:

There was a post about this from Mike O’Brien when the same question was raised just after release.

US dollar prices are displayed exclusive of sales tax, which is then added on to the price you pay later in the checkout process.

Euro prices are displayed inclusive of VAT, which is charged at 20% because ArenaNet’s EU operation is based in the UK, which has %20 VAT rate.

10 Eur / 1.2 = 8.3333333 Euros.

So Arenanet get 8.333 Euros when you spend 10.

Current exchange rate is 1 dollar = 0.75 Euro. When the game launched mid 2012, the exchange rate was actually 1 Dollar = 0.8x Euro, very close to what the 1 to 1 conversion works out at without the VAT.

It would be unwieldy to continually adjust prices based on exchange rate fluctuations, so 1 to 1 seems to me to be a perfectly sensible conversion.

At this juncture I should point out that if you buy in GBP, then you are getting the short end of the stick, because in that case they are charging more than just the cost of the VAT extra.

There was this person working in a bank, who deviated 0.10 cents from every transaction people made with bank transfers and made around 100 million in a week….At the end he went to jail because that was illegal.

Sooo when you say “1 Dollar = 0.8x Euro, very close to what the 1 to 1 conversion works out at without the VAT.” yea it sounds good if we are talking about 100 euro right?

How does it sound when we talk about ignoring 0.03 over hundreds of millions? That is money out of consumers pocket mind you.

My point was that people get angry that they’re paying a lot more than the currency conversion alone would justify, whereas in fact when the VAT is taken into account, the difference is much smaller.

If ANet continually adjusted the Gem prices based on the current exchange rate to get an exact dollar to Euro match, then it would be an accounting nightmare.

Because ’MURRICA!

Edit for relevance: Because VAT, and they probably like even numbers.

ConfusedDave.4271:

My point was that people get angry that they’re paying a lot more than the currency conversion alone would justify, whereas in fact when the VAT is taken into account, the difference is much smaller.

If ANet continually adjusted the Gem prices based on the current exchange rate to get an exact dollar to Euro match, then it would be an accounting nightmare.

I agree with you but it should be advertised while purchasing gems in any currency except for USD.
My answer still remains: if I purchase in USD using my PayPal account will the gems be avaiable for me, playing in Europe?
And, I should add: If the answer is “yes” will the system notice that I’m from Europe and it’ll add the VAT exchange by itself raising the price to 12 USD (notice that even in this situation EU players will have to pay more for the same gem amount in comparison to US players)?

EDIT: I checked actual currency exchange and it seems that purchasing in pounds is cheaper than purchasing in euro (8.50£ is 9.89€ actually) so, purchasing in euro is always a loss at the moment considering that 10$ are 7,5€.

ConfusedDave.4271:

There was a post about this from Mike O’Brien when the same question was raised just after release.

US dollar prices are displayed exclusive of sales tax, which is then added on to the price you pay later in the checkout process.

Euro prices are displayed inclusive of VAT, which is charged at 20% because ArenaNet’s EU operation is based in the UK, which has %20 VAT rate.

10 Eur / 1.2 = 8.3333333 Euros.

So Arenanet get 8.333 Euros when you spend 10.

Current exchange rate is 1 dollar = 0.75 Euro. When the game launched mid 2012, the exchange rate was actually 1 Dollar = 0.8x Euro, very close to what the 1 to 1 conversion works out at without the VAT.

It would be unwieldy to continually adjust prices based on exchange rate fluctuations, so 1 to 1 seems to me to be a perfectly sensible conversion.

At this juncture I should point out that if you buy in GBP, then you are getting the short end of the stick, because in that case they are charging more than just the cost of the VAT extra.

Correct me if i am wrong but Anet are not selling anything in particualr, they sell virtual currency. I do not know how you define virtual currency in terms of taxing but im sure there would be no export tax applied. So, they can only charge VAT to their UK customers if they are selling locally, but if they export their product, which in fact they are doing they cannot charge VAT. All in all not very legit…

happyjedi.1372:

EDIT: I checked actual currency exchange and it seems that purchasing in pounds is cheaper than purchasing in euro (8.50£ is 9.89€ actually) so, purchasing in euro is always a loss at the moment considering that 10$ are 7,5€.

Ah, interesting – I hadn’t rechecked the GBP exchange rates. It was the other way round at launch by a significant margin.

docledd.9682:

Correct me if i am wrong but Anet are not selling anything in particualr, they sell virtual currency. I do not know how you define virtual currency in terms of taxing but im sure there would be no export tax applied. So, they can only charge VAT to their UK customers if they are selling locally, but if they export their product, which in fact they are doing they cannot charge VAT. All in all not very legit…

VAT is applied to pretty much any thing you sell, not just physical items. If I pay a plumber to come and fit a new bath, the plumber has to charge VAT on his labour time too. So virtual currency sales would be taxed as per anything else.

There are weird rules within the EU which mean that exporting to another country in the EU is not treated the same as exporting outside the EU completely. However, If ANET are selling to consumers outside of the EU, then no, they should not be charging VAT, even if the price is in Euros.

A lot of companies conveniently forget this fact, which tends to annoy people in Switzerland amongst other places, which are in Europe but not in the EU. NO idea what ANET do.

I believe you can get the gems by paying with paypal in USD, yes, it shouldn’t have a problem, but don’t take my answer for granted.

ConfusedDave.4271:

happyjedi.1372:

EDIT: I checked actual currency exchange and it seems that purchasing in pounds is cheaper than purchasing in euro (8.50£ is 9.89€ actually) so, purchasing in euro is always a loss at the moment considering that 10$ are 7,5€.

Ah, interesting – I hadn’t rechecked the GBP exchange rates. It was the other way round at launch by a significant margin.

docledd.9682:

Correct me if i am wrong but Anet are not selling anything in particualr, they sell virtual currency. I do not know how you define virtual currency in terms of taxing but im sure there would be no export tax applied. So, they can only charge VAT to their UK customers if they are selling locally, but if they export their product, which in fact they are doing they cannot charge VAT. All in all not very legit…

VAT is applied to pretty much any thing you sell, not just physical items. If I pay a plumber to come and fit a new bath, the plumber has to charge VAT on his labour time too. So virtual currency sales would be taxed as per anything else.

There are weird rules within the EU which mean that exporting to another country in the EU is not treated the same as exporting outside the EU completely. However, If ANET are selling to consumers outside of the EU, then no, they should not be charging VAT, even if the price is in Euros.

A lot of companies conveniently forget this fact, which tends to annoy people in Switzerland amongst other places, which are in Europe but not in the EU. NO idea what ANET do.

I probably wasn’t clear enough but thats probably because i didnt look into the matter much. What im wondering is how do you classify Gems in terms of taxing policies? What are they selling here? It cant be service as they sell currency valid on a different market…

Ok, I tried to advance in the process of purchasing gems with EURO currency and the window clearly states that the taxes are of 0.00 EURO.
In my opinion there is nothing indicating that virtual currency is affected by VAT and Arenanet is simply overpricing non-USD transactions.
I really feel a bit scammed, not about a small amount of bucks but because we european players are discriminated.

I am not able to purchase in USD because it requires to imput a valid US billing address (and that is reasonable).

I have attached a screenshot of the transaction review.

John Smith.4610:

That UI is for US Tax, VAT is added into the price. We pay 20% on all transactions from Europe.

Understood, but this does not justify a 50 cents price difference.

As an alternative, there are also sites that resell codes (game licenses/virtual currency cards) from other countries and send them to you via email.

I won’t name any of them, though. I’ve also read allegations of them being able to claim your account (steam etc.) because they still have the physical copy of the code… though nothing has happened to me (yet?).

For many people this has become a way to bypass country- or region-locked prices or prices that were kept high artificially (see CoD-prices). Though the price difference in case of gems is much smaller and probably not worth the effort.

I imagine they rounded so it would be consistent for all time. I imagine they aren’t going to be constantly adjusting the buy-price for gems based on currency conversion rates on any given month.

You euro people are cute.

Try living in Canada.

Our dollars are more or less on par with the US, yet we wind up paying a chunk more for the majority of goods and services on our side of the border than the cost of the same goods south of the border.

In fairness, though, you will find similar disparities on goods even between states within the U.S. where, to paraphrase, ‘1 dollar is not always 1 dollar’.

Suck it up princesses. Welcome to the global economy.

We’ve had several threads about this:

John Smith’s link provided in here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Euro-users-paying-30-more-for-gems

leads to here

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/gems-1-1-1/first#post90768

Steam is guilty of the same thing I believe.

It really twists my European nuts!

John Smith.4610:

That UI is for US Tax, VAT is added into the price. We pay 20% on all transactions from Europe.

well no, basically, the players pay it.

That’s true of most things. Sellers of goods will increase the price of their goods to offset taxation costs.

Vol.5241:

We’ve had several threads about this:

John Smith’s link provided in here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Euro-users-paying-30-more-for-gems

leads to here

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/gems-1-1-1/first#post90768

Interesting, by reading the responses there is a common idea of a low profile scam surrounding european pricing (they talk about 80 eurocents and now is 50 eurocents but it’s the same thing).
If they are charging with an included VAT then the price (atm) should be 9,5 euro and not 10.

Don’t take me wrong but I want to understand why should we pay more for gems.

Rising Dusk.2408:

That’s true of most things. Sellers of goods will increase the price of their goods to offset taxation costs.

Anet is already covering the mentioned tax with a +20% on the gem cost but is also raising the overall price with no reasons.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

Sadly this kinda of math has become the norm in online games over the last few years.. I don’t see it disapering anytime soon, regardless of how idiotic it is.

Yeah, 1€ seems to be 1$ in every game. It’s just curious how would it be rounded if euro would be the weaker currency? :P Well, i know the answer to that.
It is what it is.

I guess all in all, this is the final straw.

Time to disband the European Union!

happyjedi.1372:

Vol.5241:

We’ve had several threads about this:

John Smith’s link provided in here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Euro-users-paying-30-more-for-gems

leads to here

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/gems-1-1-1/first#post90768

Interesting, by reading the responses there is a common idea of a low profile scam surrounding european pricing (they talk about 80 eurocents and now is 50 eurocents but it’s the same thing).
If they are charging with an included VAT then the price (atm) should be 9,5 euro and not 10.

Don’t take me wrong but I want to understand why should we pay more for gems.

Rising Dusk.2408:

That’s true of most things. Sellers of goods will increase the price of their goods to offset taxation costs.

Anet is already covering the mentioned tax with a +20% on the gem cost but is also raising the overall price with no reasons.

And if the exchange swings the other way and 10 euro is less than USD10 + VAT? Do you want them to raise the price or just keep it the same? When pricing was set, it was approximately equal. Remember that there’s a cost to Anet in converting currency as well (assuming they want to eventually convert that money to USD). Since Anet’s adjusting prices continuously, they’re not going to charge something like 9.53 euro. They’re going to charge a nice round number because people prefer them.

Syeria.4812:

And if the exchange swings the other way and 10 euro is less than USD10 + VAT? Do you want them to raise the price or just keep it the same? When pricing was set, it was approximately equal. Remember that there’s a cost to Anet in converting currency as well (assuming they want to eventually convert that money to USD). Since Anet’s adjusting prices continuously, they’re not going to charge something like 9.53 euro. They’re going to charge a nice round number because people prefer them.

I don’t want US players to pay more just because european players pay more than them but I’d like a fair exchange based on overall values.

About the pricing conversion you mentioned: the conversion difference EURO-USD was even larger on 28th August 2012 (1$ = ~0,79€) than today (1$ = ~0.73€) so the idea of Anet setting a precise price of exactly 10€ is totally arbitrary.
A fair margin for the customer can be of 1 to 5 cents at maximum, not 50.

About the exchange costs: with all the respects to Anet we, players, won’t care less about how Anet will use our money; if they want to invest them in the market, pay european workers salary or exchange them in USD with a fee is not of our concern. You should not make assumptions on how will Anet use game’s revenues.

I am not suggesting that Anet must change prices every week or month but AT LEAST keep them at a fair amount and actually rounding the price with a net revenue of 50 eurocents is just too much.
To everyone using the “round prices of 10 of everything are for better convenience”: I have to remember them that the cost in UK Pounds is 8,85/8.85 so, this argument is invalid.

There is no scam… its not like its listed at 10 and then charged 15. If they want to round up in their favor 1 = 1 deal with it. Nothing you can do about it,.. specially for a couple of cents.

happyjedi.1372:

About the pricing conversion you mentioned: the conversion difference EURO-USD was even larger on 28th August 2012 (1$ = ~0,79€) than today (1$ = ~0.73€) so the idea of Anet setting a precise price of exactly 10€ is totally arbitrary.
A fair margin for the customer can be of 1 to 5 cents at maximum, not 50.

The margin is 5 cents per dollar. Why is that a problem?

And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’

(Matthew 20:11-15 ESV)

Don’t worry about what others pay. If you think they cost you too much, don’t buy them. If you’re willing to pay 10€ for it, then do so.

And for what it’s worth, right now $10 + 20% = 9€. Are you really going to argue over 1€? How many euros do you earn in an hour? Convert that 1€ into time spent arguing on the forum. Then, when that time is up, move on.

Syeria.4812:

happyjedi.1372:

About the pricing conversion you mentioned: the conversion difference EURO-USD was even larger on 28th August 2012 (1$ = ~0,79€) than today (1$ = ~0.73€) so the idea of Anet setting a precise price of exactly 10€ is totally arbitrary.
A fair margin for the customer can be of 1 to 5 cents at maximum, not 50.

The margin is 5 cents per dollar. Why is that a problem?

The exact conversion is nearly 9,5€ (VAT included) for the gem pack so the margin is 50 cents, not 5.

Again, I am not arguing about the cents but about the concept: there is no reason to charge more for the same amount of goods (gems in this case), especially if we talk about virtual currency.

If you think Euro’s are hard done by.. please spare a thought for UK players.

800 gems = US$ 10
800 gems = UK£ 8.50

www.xe.com says exchange rate is $0.645 to the £.

$10 should be £6.45, but UK players are charged £8.50, over £2 more than US players.

Now if that ‘20% extra’ is down purely down to VAT then I call kitten… 20% of £6.45 is £1.29 for a total of £7.74 *NOT £8.50.*

The current differential between US$ and UK£ prices is currently 31.9%. Dropping the UK price to £8 would still be enough to cover the ‘20% VAT’ and leave room for a bit of profit.

According to Google:
1 USD = 0.75 Euros (note that this is not static and varies constantly)

As mentioned by John Smith, the EU has a 20% tax on certain transactions that include GW2 players buying gems, while the US has no such tax. Anet passes that cost on to the player, making that 0.75 essentially a 0.95.

Arenanet is based in the US, and therefore tracks its own money in USD, so to them the value of 1 USD is essentially static. From that perspective, the value of the Euro is slightly unstable, and that additional 5% cost is built in to protect against inflation. As the value of the USD goes down, Anet receives the same amount of income in terms of USD, but as the value of the Euro goes down, Anet receives less income in terms of USD.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

and that additional 5% cost is built in to protect against inflation.

Interesting, and how are we supposed to protect ourselves from inflation, considering that Anet only is protecting itself I still call it arbitrary.

John Smith.4610:

That UI is for US Tax, VAT is added into the price. We pay 20% on all transactions from Europe.

$10 equals €7.49. If you add on the 20% VAT (which is fair enough), the total is €8.98. Where does the other €1.02 of overcharge come from?

Carzor Stelatis.9435:

John Smith.4610:

That UI is for US Tax, VAT is added into the price. We pay 20% on all transactions from Europe.

$10 equals €7.49. If you add on the 20% VAT (which is fair enough), the total is €8.98. Where does the other €1.02 of overcharge come from?

On August 28th, 2012 (GW2 release date) $10 = €8.00. If you add VAT the total is €9.60, suddenly the overcharge is only €0.40 and €10 becomes the nearest round dollar.

Since this thread is mainly complaining about a €0.05 difference per 1US dollar transactions, perhaps the EU should just convert to American currency already?

I would love to not have to worry about converting monies while taking trips overseas. Is there a way to petition the King or Queen of Europe for this change to be considered?

John Smith.4610:

That UI is for US Tax, VAT is added into the price. We pay 20% on all transactions from Europe.

You are offering virtual goods and no creation of value. Why not just take the tax hit? Its not like you are loosing anything.