Guild Wars 2

Smooth Penguin.5294:

DaveGan.8065:

tolunart.2095:

No, they are complaining because someone else has the extremely rare item that they want but don’t have. The only way to make this complaint go away is to give them the item. The irony is that if you give everyone who complains the item, it’s not rare any more and becomes far less valuable. It’s just another exotic that sells for 2g and change on the TP now. So they’ll complain that giving those other people the extremely rare item too devalued the item until there is no prestige involved in having it.

So, what they are really asking is that Anet gives me me me and only me that rare item so they can make other people as jealous as they are now. Not going to happen.

Clearly you didn’t read the rest of my post.

breaking Dusk into 1000 tradable “Fragment of Dusk” (combine 4 stacks into the mystic forge for the full Dusk) and making the drop rate of these fragments 1000x that of Dusk. You could even keep Dusk drops in game by cutting the drop rate of Dusk in half and offer a 500x drop rate on the Fragments. Alternatively, offer a 10%-25%/100% chance to get a fragment when salvaging a rare/exotic weapon of that type.

I said nothing about the drop rate. This would not increase the number of precursors at all. The only suggestion here was that the variance needed to be reduced.

You have it all wrong. The complaints stem from the individual sense of Entitlement. It’s all about “I want it cheap and I want it now” sorta thing.

I don’t think that’s entire true. You get much less people complaining about tier6 material. And the price probably went up more than precursor.

They already said there will be precursor crafting. So what the guy want is coming. Just don’t know how long.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Vol.7601:

Rising Dusk.2408:

laokoko.7403:

Rising Dusk.2408:

I totally understand the economics in what is going on here. Someone’s willing to pay an absurd amount of gold for their precursor now, so the item is valued there. Sure, sounds great.

My contempt is with the fact that there are only two ways to get these blasted things. I RNG it from a random drop, or I RNG it from the Mystic Forge. That’s it. Not even considering how this is about the least enthralling way to develop a legendary possible, the fact that there is no way to actually “make progress” on your precursor short of just grinding out gold is absurd. It is nigh time we get precursor building, and the recent up-shift in prices only makes that more pertinent. Seriously, that’s what John Smith’s takeaway from these topics should be.

or you can just buy from the TP.

Even if they added precursor hunt, they never said it’s going to take less effort than grinding 1200 gold.

For instance, when I made Incinerator, I went out and collected that stack of Ghost Peppers myself. Why? Because now I can look back on helping a bunch of randoms in Orr out and making some friends along the way and say that was a worthy investment of time. Looking back on a gold grind is nowhere near as sentimental.

Maybe because you entered that gold grind with the mindset that you find it a chore?

I was predominantly a farmer, and I met many other like-minded farmers that I still talk to this day. My original guild I joined because we had other people who liked to farm shelt/pen day after day.

Experiences vary. You may find it not nearly as sentimental but I enjoy the relaxing, brain dead farming while I talk to friends about other stuff.

Sure, and I enjoy it sometimes too! Maybe the precursor crafting can have a 250 Icy Runestone requirement. I certainly think that’s a good idea! There should be a straight gold component to doing it, but do you honestly think farming that gold like that for 1200 gold straight is ideal? Do you think that says something about your experiences in-game? Your ability to master the game? Why can’t gold only be a single component in a grander design? Farm for some parts of it, and maybe some others require some mastery of the game elsewhere, and so forth. Furthermore, you could still farm all the gold for the components if you wanted. That’s important because it enables you to do whatever you want, but having materials like “Iron Ore” or “Orichalcum Ore” or “Spiritwood Plank” give people milestones to work toward that they can obtain either with straight gold or with harvesting. This gives people the choice to truly play how they want and actually get somewhere on their precursor. Of course people could also still just buy them outright on the TP too if they want!

I think it’s fair to have components of the legendary quest to be strictly gold. The two components that make up for this are the precursor and icy runestones. And for the most part, these items were cheap until recently because of market factors.

Meanwhile we have other components that are collect quests, such as the t6 gifts and weapon-specific gifts

Finally we have the luck aspect, involving clovers (and precursors again if you wish to go that route)

I think precursors are in everyone’s head because it’s just one item and it’s insanely expensive. But when you consider the costs of globs/T6 mats, it’s just as expensive but not many people are outraged about it because it’s spread out over many components.

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

Leamas.5803:

There is enough anecdotal evidence to show there are issues with the RNG.

Argument fails right there. At any given moment there are tens of thousands of people, at least, playing this game. “Look at these twelve people, this proves RNG is broken,” doesn’t even begin to offer enough data to do anything.

actually random samples are a method of statistics as well, when your random sample shows info not consistent with what you expect you then begin a more detailed analysis, QC of many products work like this.
Anyhow even if one can claim anectdotal evidence may be invalid, its a lot more valid than 0 data.

The randomization itself is not enough to guarantee representation; randomizing allows you to avoid impacts that would bias your results. The size of the sample gives a level of confidence that the results from your sample is indicative of your population.

For example, I can pick, at random, 1 player who happens to be the extreme case for gold eraning. This would not be indicative of the population. It seems to me that the point being made here is that anecdotal evidence is indeed a bad indicator of RNG; I agree because we don’t need anecdotal evidence when people have already quantified drop rates for precursors using MF.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

DaveGan.8065:

tolunart.2095:

No, they are complaining because someone else has the extremely rare item that they want but don’t have. The only way to make this complaint go away is to give them the item. The irony is that if you give everyone who complains the item, it’s not rare any more and becomes far less valuable. It’s just another exotic that sells for 2g and change on the TP now. So they’ll complain that giving those other people the extremely rare item too devalued the item until there is no prestige involved in having it.

So, what they are really asking is that Anet gives me me me and only me that rare item so they can make other people as jealous as they are now. Not going to happen.

Clearly you didn’t read the rest of my post.

breaking Dusk into 1000 tradable “Fragment of Dusk” (combine 4 stacks into the mystic forge for the full Dusk) and making the drop rate of these fragments 1000x that of Dusk. You could even keep Dusk drops in game by cutting the drop rate of Dusk in half and offer a 500x drop rate on the Fragments. Alternatively, offer a 10%-25%/100% chance to get a fragment when salvaging a rare/exotic weapon of that type.

I said nothing about the drop rate. This would not increase the number of precursors at all. The only suggestion here was that the variance needed to be reduced.

You have it all wrong. The complaints stem from the individual sense of Entitlement. It’s all about “I want it cheap and I want it now” sorta thing.

So people are crying “wolf” when it’s a tiger. Not that surprising when we’re talking about the “uneducated masses” they’re referred to here as. Precursor prices may not be a problem themselves, but a symptom of the larger issue of inflation. Perhaps stronger gold sinks and not material sinks for starters…

We may choose to disagree on the “entitlement” issue. So long as people aren’t complaining about T6/ecto I’ll continue to think it’s overstated and overused just like “toxic” and “cancer”.

DaveGan.8065:

So people are crying “wolf” when it’s a tiger. Not that surprising when we’re talking about the “uneducated masses” they’re referred to here as. Precursor prices may not be a problem themselves, but a symptom of the larger issue of inflation. Perhaps stronger gold sinks and not material sinks for starters…

We may choose to disagree on the “entitlement” issue. So long as people aren’t complaining about T6/ecto I’ll continue to think it’s overstated and overused just like “toxic” and “cancer”.

Supply and Demand is not the same as Inflation. If I were to buy out all existing Dusks on the market, then post my own for 5k, that would mean absolutely nothing in terms of “inflation”. Now if my lone Dusk sold for 5k, that means the Demand was so stronk in that individual, that he was willing to pay my price.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Supply and Demand is not the same as Inflation. If I were to buy out all existing Dusks on the market, then post my own for 5k, that would mean absolutely nothing in terms of “inflation”. Now if my lone Dusk sold for 5k, that means the Demand was so stronk in that individual, that he was willing to pay my price.

Here is the inflation I was talking about.

http://i.imgur.com/5Ort2bH.png

I realize you probably have a personal conflict of interest and want these items to keep inflating, but we are not and never were talking about your hypothetical strawman situation.

Your lone Dusk selling for 5k would only indicate high variance. Individual demand means little in the grander scheme of things.

In other precursor news, at this point in time, there are zero, yes zero Zaps in the TP.

When is the precursor issue going to be adressed seriously…

I think it’s fair to have components of the legendary quest to be strictly gold. The two components that make up for this are the precursor and icy runestones. And for the most part, these items were cheap until recently because of market factors.

Krom the Destroyer has set out on a quest to craft the Legendary Great sword Twilight. But first he must stop by “Evan’s Land of Super Great Deals” and buy his precursor for a mere 1200g. After that the quest can continue…

Tune in next time where Krom traverses Tyria to reach Frostgorge Sound and buy 100 Icy Rune Stones from Rojan the Penitent’s “house of many cold stones”.

DaveGan.8065:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Supply and Demand is not the same as Inflation. If I were to buy out all existing Dusks on the market, then post my own for 5k, that would mean absolutely nothing in terms of “inflation”. Now if my lone Dusk sold for 5k, that means the Demand was so stronk in that individual, that he was willing to pay my price.

Here is the inflation I was talking about.

http://i.imgur.com/5Ort2bH.png

I realize you probably have a personal conflict of interest and want these items to keep inflating, but we are not and never were talking about your hypothetical strawman situation.

Your lone Dusk selling for 5k would only indicate high variance. Individual demand means little in the grander scheme of things.

You’re right. We not talking about my hypothetical market situation, but the fact that Entitlement flows through the veins of each and every player. This is because it’s human nature to want the best of things. We Americans are spoiled, because we live in the greatest country on Earth. We get things that other countries’ citizens take for granted, thus our mindset of entitlement.

So when you couple Entitlement with Supply and Demand, you get an ever increasing price threshold on luxury goods. As more of us attain wealth, the more likely we’ll blow it all on one single item. This leads to a brand new term I just invented called “Entitlelation”, or the slow but constant rising of prices due to the affordability of impulse purchases of luxury goods.

edit – ’MURRICA!!!

Largely, this conversation isn’t doing much to change anyone’s mind. People who think the market is just fine keep displaying evidence that supports that view. People who feel there’s something wrong keep talking about how dispirited they are by attempting a goal that seems to stay out of reach forever.

Both can be true: the market can be working perfectly with near-perfect RNG set by ANet for “legendary” items and people can feel that such a system sucks the wind out of their fun.

Accordingly, ANet is never going to be able to resolve the situation to everyone’s satisfaction. Or at least not without making fundamental and comprehensive changes to core mechanics in the game. They might get close by creating a type of crafting process to build precursors, but given what they’ve done with Ascended items, it’s not going to be any less crazy in terms of effort.
——-
Meantime, if you really, really, want a precursor, start putting in custom buy orders with whatever you can afford now. If that’s 200g, great. That will keep your coin from being accidentally spent on other things, like other skins, silly (but fun) tonics, or dyes. Each time you earn another 25 or 50g, remove the buy order and set up a new one for that much more.

This won’t save you any time, but it gives you a couple of psychological edges in your efforts: it reduces the distraction of watching the market (and its inherent frustrations), it keeps the coin from being accidentally spent, and you should get a nice burst of endorphins each time you set up the new buy order and realize how well your nest egg is growing.

sorudo.9054:

there are 6 different dust we can trade, which one?

Stardust, which is lucky number 7.

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/44979

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

This won’t save you any time, but it gives you a couple of psychological edges in your efforts: it reduces the distraction of watching the market (and its inherent frustrations), it keeps the coin from being accidentally spent, and you should get a nice burst of endorphins each time you set up the new buy order and realize how well your nest egg is growing.

Most of the richest people in the game made their money on the TP. If I spend a couple hours and babysit it a bit, I can easily flip low end items for 40g profit in a weekend…but it’s BORING!!!!

John Smith.4610:

People can put up sell orders for any value they want as long as they can afford the fee, that doesn’t mean the item is suddenly trading for that price.

edit: attempting to fix data image.

So in Anet opinion, it is perfectly fine that this item is valued at ~$200 to purchase??

devnull.6085:

John Smith.4610:

People can put up sell orders for any value they want as long as they can afford the fee, that doesn’t mean the item is suddenly trading for that price.

edit: attempting to fix data image.

So in Anet opinion, it is perfectly fine that this item is valued at ~$200 to purchase??

Not sure you understand what John said…

no one is buying it at 2000g, so it is not worth 2000g. if they were buying it at 2000g, the sell listing price would be higher.
take the average of buy orders and sell listing and you’ll get much closer to the price that item is worth.

phys.7689:

actually random samples are a method of statistics as well, when your random sample shows info not consistent with what you expect you then begin a more detailed analysis, QC of many products work like this.
Anyhow even if one can claim anectdotal evidence may be invalid, its a lot more valid than 0 data.

It’s not a random sample. Posters saying this are not server hopping, surveying random users and collecting results, they’re talking about friends, guildies, comments in general chat… and most of the data is useless because it’s false.

I remember a while back someone posted that he almost never dies in this game, and JS responded by looking up their # of deaths so far this year or something – a number in the hundreds or thousands. People don’t always remember things correctly, or deliberately lie for various reasons, and interpret things the way they want them to be.

The only ones qualified to make a judgement on the precursor drop rate are the devs, who can actually look up the numbers of items dropped, sold, bought, salvaged, etc. Vague comments in chat don’t prove anything, and are not reliable data for drawing any conclusions at all.

Mystic.5934:

no one is buying it at 2000g, so it is not worth 2000g. if they were buying it at 2000g, the sell listing price would be higher.
take the average of buy orders and sell listing and you’ll get much closer to the price that item is worth.

well for all we know the point of the initial post was to adevrtise the value of dusk being high so as to generate interest, maybe not, but who can say.

the key fact here is that dusk is now selling since the 2k move, for 1500 and 1240, about 200 more than a week a ago to buy orders, and 350 more to sell orders, somebodies winning

but definately not the people who want dusk and havent made 200 more gold this week

What we know is that the demand for Dusk is high enough to support the current prices. This is because of the wardrobe system and the recent upgrade of Eternity’s graphic effects. More people want Twilight/Eternity and therefore there are more people trying to outspend each other.

This is a natural consequence of changes that were made to the game, not manipulation. If players say “1500g for a precursor is too much” then Dusk would not be selling at that price. Yes, that means if someone is willing to spend more money than you, or has more money to spend than you, then you will not get the item. Anet can do nothing about this, it is purely the result of the willingness of players to spend more money than everyone else.

All the other ingredients for a Legendary are sure-fire from the Forge. You put certain things in, and get what you need out of it every time. Precursors should be the same. There should be sure-fire recipes that when you put all 4 in the forge, out pops your Precursor. The “precursor” for your Precursor could be sold by the Forge Vendor (I forget her name) and be as simple as “Wooden Greatsword” or “Wooden Dagger” that, after combining it with 3 other fantastical items, boom, turns that wooden piece of crud into the precursor you need. Need unique, hard to get items, but not too expensive because the Legendary grind is already intense enough for the average player.

tolunart.2095:

What we know is that the demand for Dusk is high enough to support the current prices. This is because of the wardrobe system and the recent upgrade of Eternity’s graphic effects. More people want Twilight/Eternity and therefore there are more people trying to outspend each other.

This is a natural consequence of changes that were made to the game, not manipulation. If players say “1500g for a precursor is too much” then Dusk would not be selling at that price. Yes, that means if someone is willing to spend more money than you, or has more money to spend than you, then you will not get the item. Anet can do nothing about this, it is purely the result of the willingness of players to spend more money than everyone else.

anet designed an item with a means of obtaining it that is only marketed to those who can make the most as you say, which means dusk is a rich mans weapon until the rich get bored with it.
as the differnce in wealth grows, so to will the attainability of this item for the non wealthy.

Trice.4598:

The fact that this is not a rich people controlling the market doesn’t change the fact that something is wrong, it’s been over a year since we’ve been promise precursor crafting and right we need more than ever.

Seriously, I wish people had to link to actual red name posts/interviews/blogs with the words “we promise” or eat a ten day ban every time they claim they were promised something.

“Looking in to” does not mean an infallible DESTINY of delivery.

Nike.2631:

Trice.4598:

The fact that this is not a rich people controlling the market doesn’t change the fact that something is wrong, it’s been over a year since we’ve been promise precursor crafting and right we need more than ever.

Seriously, I wish people had to link to actual red name posts/interviews/blogs with the words “we promise” or eat a ten day ban every time they claim they were promised something.

“Looking in to” does not mean an infallible DESTINY of delivery.

actually they said in the 2013 plans, that before the end of 2013 we would have precursor quests. Now plans change, but its not the same thing as claiming they never really said they were going to do it.

Alls i got to say is the precursor quest better be awesome, if ends up being a gather 1000 items x 10 quest, then thats something they should have been able to whip up in 1 month

phys.7689:

the key fact here is that dusk is now selling since the 2k move, for 1500 and 1240, about 200 more than a week a ago to buy orders, and 350 more to sell orders, somebodies winning

but definately not the people who want dusk and havent made 200 more gold this week

20% inflation practically overnight.

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

What we know is that the demand for Dusk is high enough to support the current prices. This is because of the wardrobe system and the recent upgrade of Eternity’s graphic effects. More people want Twilight/Eternity and therefore there are more people trying to outspend each other.

This is a natural consequence of changes that were made to the game, not manipulation. If players say “1500g for a precursor is too much” then Dusk would not be selling at that price. Yes, that means if someone is willing to spend more money than you, or has more money to spend than you, then you will not get the item. Anet can do nothing about this, it is purely the result of the willingness of players to spend more money than everyone else.

anet designed an item with a means of obtaining it that is only marketed to those who can make the most as you say, which means dusk is a rich mans weapon until the rich get bored with it.
as the differnce in wealth grows, so to will the attainability of this item for the non wealthy.

Yes, Legendary weapons were never meant for “the average player.” The way MMOs are designed, there have to be rare, hard to obtain items to motivate some players to keep logging in. A fair number of players stop playing, or at least play a lot less often, after obtaining a Legendary because they lack a long-term goal to work towards.

Which is why the situation is not going to change – Anet intended Legendaries to be hard to get, the fact that they remain hard to get is not a problem. If you want one, be prepared to work for it. If you don’t want to work for it, be prepared to never have one.

tolunart.2095:

Which is why the situation is not going to change – Anet intended Legendaries to be hard to get, the fact that they remain hard to get is not a problem. If you want one, be prepared to work for it. If you don’t want to work for it, be prepared to never have one.

This is very true.

That said, I think there is some merit to the complaints from players who are steadily working towards a Legendary, only to see the price of Precursors keep going up. Having a long-term goal to work towards is great! What’s less great is if those goal posts keep moving due to factors outside your control.

Craftable or Scavenger Hunt Precursors should solve those complaints, although we don’t have any idea when that will come about.

morrolan.9608:

20% inflation practically overnight.

Not inflation, gouging due to supply shortage. One did sell at 1337g (leet, cute) about 12 hours ago.

tolunart.2095:

Yes, Legendary weapons were never meant for “the average player.”

Ascended gear was not meant for the average player either, but the design of ascended gear crafting allows the casual players to contribute to and profit from it by selling their unneeded time-gated mats to the more hardcore players.

ANet could (not necessarily “should”) similarly implement measures to allow more of the player base to contribute to and gain from legendary weapons being made. One idea I offered earlier in the thread would be to cut the drop rate of the precursors while introducing “fragments” (dropping at a considerably higher rate and/or salvaged from rares/exotics) that could be combined into the real thing.

if only we could sell ascended crafting mats, i have plenty but likely will never use them.
i only need the dust to make a quiver but that’s all……and why can’t we put the philosopher stone in the mat storage, it’s taking up space for no reason…

I haven’t put mine up yet, still trying to decide if I want to make the legendary. Odds on I miss the boat when I make up my mind.

Zaxares.5419:

That said, I think there is some merit to the complaints from players who are steadily working towards a Legendary, only to see the price of Precursors keep going up. Having a long-term goal to work towards is great! What’s less great is if those goal posts keep moving due to factors outside your control.

Craftable or Scavenger Hunt Precursors should solve those complaints, although we don’t have any idea when that will come about.

Granted, that’s why they began working on it over a year ago. Major changes can take a long time to implement, like the wardrobe and trait changes. In this case, Anet cannot really do anything because it’s the players themselves who determine the prices of precursors. If Anet made them drop more often prices wouldn’t necessarily drop much – prices of other mats would skyrocket instead because a greater number of players would see a precursor drop and be inspired to create a Legendary, increasing demand for other items.

And as I’ve said before, I don’t expect the new process to be easier or faster than the current methods. So I don’t think the players who are frustrated and impatient now will suddenly be satisfied, more likely there will be an entirely new wave of complaints.

DaveGan.8065:

tolunart.2095:

Yes, Legendary weapons were never meant for “the average player.”

Ascended gear was not meant for the average player either, but the design of ascended gear crafting allows the casual players to contribute to and profit from it by selling their unneeded time-gated mats to the more hardcore players.

ANet could (not necessarily “should”) similarly implement measures to allow more of the player base to contribute to and gain from legendary weapons being made. One idea I offered earlier in the thread would be to cut the drop rate of the precursors while introducing “fragments” (dropping at a considerably higher rate and/or salvaged from rares/exotics) that could be combined into the real thing.

They’ve been working on the new process for over a year, it’s safe to say that by now they’ve decided what it will be – they just can’t tell the players yet.

The project has been pushed back, not deleted. It could not be released now due to the changes caused by new features like the wardrobe – these things have already had an effect on the game’s economy, as did the ascended crafting twice before. If this also involves crafting or other items sold on the TP, 200,000 players suddenly saying “hey, I can make a precursor!” would destroy it right now.

So, demands for Anet to “do something” are pointless. Because they have access to the data regarding player behavior, and they know what this new method will be, they have determined that it would be bad for the game to put it in right now. The devs have to consider the game as a whole, not a handful of vocal complainers on the forums who don’t care if the game burns to the ground around them, as long as they get their shinies.

I’m with Lilith Ajit.6173.
It is simply not possible to have bad luck for 7 years in GW1 and nearly 2 in GW2.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

What we know is that the demand for Dusk is high enough to support the current prices. This is because of the wardrobe system and the recent upgrade of Eternity’s graphic effects. More people want Twilight/Eternity and therefore there are more people trying to outspend each other.

This is a natural consequence of changes that were made to the game, not manipulation. If players say “1500g for a precursor is too much” then Dusk would not be selling at that price. Yes, that means if someone is willing to spend more money than you, or has more money to spend than you, then you will not get the item. Anet can do nothing about this, it is purely the result of the willingness of players to spend more money than everyone else.

anet designed an item with a means of obtaining it that is only marketed to those who can make the most as you say, which means dusk is a rich mans weapon until the rich get bored with it.
as the differnce in wealth grows, so to will the attainability of this item for the non wealthy.

Yes, Legendary weapons were never meant for “the average player.” The way MMOs are designed, there have to be rare, hard to obtain items to motivate some players to keep logging in. A fair number of players stop playing, or at least play a lot less often, after obtaining a Legendary because they lack a long-term goal to work towards.

Which is why the situation is not going to change – Anet intended Legendaries to be hard to get, the fact that they remain hard to get is not a problem. If you want one, be prepared to work for it. If you don’t want to work for it, be prepared to never have one.

yup, and this rare motivating item is designed around how much more you can earn in gold over other players. Hence, the disconnect for many players, who dont realize that earning gold is the actual focus of the game.

DaveGan.8065:

ANet could (not necessarily “should”) similarly implement measures to allow more of the player base to contribute to and gain from legendary weapons being made. One idea I offered earlier in the thread would be to cut the drop rate of the precursors while introducing “fragments” (dropping at a considerably higher rate and/or salvaged from rares/exotics) that could be combined into the real thing.

As I’ve said in my last post, discussions like this are pointless because Anet already knows what the new method for getting a precursor will be. However, we’ve already seen something similar introduced into the game, so I can tell you what would happen with your idea.

Besides gearing alts and tossing into the MF, rares and exotics already have a high demand for salvaging into crafting mats, ectos, dark matter. Essences of Luck were added to fine and masterwork (blue and green) gear because there was little demand for them and the TP was stuffed with cheap gear. Rares and exotics move pretty quickly already, so adding “Essence of Legendary” to their salvage results would increase demand at least as much as blues and green went up when Luck was first introduced.

This means that the TP would quickly empty of any rare or exotic equipment as players rushed to complete their precursors, and new items would be listed at a much higher price than they are now. New players and players with alts to gear up would not be able to afford to buy rare/exotic equipment to use let alone salvage for a precursor. The prices of mithril, ori, etc. would crash as an unwanted side effect of salvaging for EoLeg.

Wealthy players and those who moved quickly to buy up the supply and flip will get their precursors quickly, while “the average player” is again left behind. Rares and exotics don’t drop that quickly outside of a few events, depending on the amount of EoLeg needed it could take the average player weeks or months to obtain a precursor, while the wealthy players have theirs within days.

Other than harming the rare/exotic markets (people who actually want to use the gear can’t get any) this doesn’t change the situation at all, you need to grind a lot of gold to get your precursor quickly, and when there are thousands of new Twilights running around the open world, doing it the hard way just makes players feel bad.

phys.7689:

yup, and this rare motivating item is designed around how much more you can earn in gold over other players. Hence, the disconnect for many players, who dont realize that earning gold is the actual focus of the game.

I don’t accept this as a legitimate argument.

I am not motivated to create a Legendary, and I don’t believe most of the casual players are either. There’s a large enough number who want them, yes, but it’s not the central focus of the game.

This is why they were not designed to be obtained through casual play. They are not intended for casual players. They never will be obtainable through casual play, because the players they are intended for will be offended by this.

For me, gathering gold is an intermediary step towards a specific goal, such as gearing up a new alt that just hit 80. And I can do this just fine by playing the game, I geared up many characters by doing the world bosses in the 1-15 zones every day and selling the loot I got. That represents about an hour out of my day, the rest of my time was spent doing things I enjoyed.

I don’t think you are capable of understanding that how you see the game is not how everyone sees the game.

Nike.2631:

Trice.4598:

The fact that this is not a rich people controlling the market doesn’t change the fact that something is wrong, it’s been over a year since we’ve been promise precursor crafting and right we need more than ever.

Seriously, I wish people had to link to actual red name posts/interviews/blogs with the words “we promise” or eat a ten day ban every time they claim they were promised something.

“Looking in to” does not mean an infallible DESTINY of delivery.

Ok, the word promise might be a little strong here, but they did say we would see it by the end of 2013 but Iv’e learned to be let down by Anet. they have a great game but they don’t listen, just look at the dungeon forum, the community is ignored over there. (Took over a year to adjust Dredge fractal)

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

yup, and this rare motivating item is designed around how much more you can earn in gold over other players. Hence, the disconnect for many players, who dont realize that earning gold is the actual focus of the game.

I don’t accept this as a legitimate argument.

I am not motivated to create a Legendary, and I don’t believe most of the casual players are either. There’s a large enough number who want them, yes, but it’s not the central focus of the game.

This is why they were not designed to be obtained through casual play. They are not intended for casual players. They never will be obtainable through casual play, because the players they are intended for will be offended by this.

For me, gathering gold is an intermediary step towards a specific goal, such as gearing up a new alt that just hit 80. And I can do this just fine by playing the game, I geared up many characters by doing the world bosses in the 1-15 zones every day and selling the loot I got. That represents about an hour out of my day, the rest of my time was spent doing things I enjoyed.

I don’t think you are capable of understanding that how you see the game is not how everyone sees the game.

you are the one who said its purpose is to be a rare motivating item that keeps people playing, i didnt disagree with you. Now you say its not supposed to motivate people.
ok

as far as me thinking everybody is me, i dont thats why i said the disconnect for MANY players, and not words like
every
50%
most

the point is a large number of people did not realize that the goal that is made for players you define as “hardcore” is based around a gold earning laddersystem. When they do realize this, thats when you see the people talking about problems getting precursors.

You really dont have to disagree with me just out of habit, i am not really saying anything that goes against anything you have said.

phys.7689:

you are the one who said its purpose is to be a rare motivating item that keeps people playing, i didnt disagree with you. Now you say its not supposed to motivate people.
ok

This is what I said:

“Yes, Legendary weapons were never meant for “the average player.” The way MMOs are designed, there have to be rare, hard to obtain items to motivate some players to keep logging in. A fair number of players stop playing, or at least play a lot less often, after obtaining a Legendary because they lack a long-term goal to work towards.”

Some, a fair number, not for the average player.

This is far from saying that Legendaries are there to motivate everyone. They are motivation for hardcore players, just as ascended gear was intended to motivate hardcore players who want to move up to high level fractals, but it is not necessary for open world content.

The casual player can enjoy the game just fine without either. The complaints against ascended/Legendary gear are based in misconceptions and therefore are invalid. I don’t complain about the price of luxury cars and yahts, because I know that they were never intended for someone like me.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

you are the one who said its purpose is to be a rare motivating item that keeps people playing, i didnt disagree with you. Now you say its not supposed to motivate people.
ok

This is what I said:

“Yes, Legendary weapons were never meant for “the average player.” The way MMOs are designed, there have to be rare, hard to obtain items to motivate some players to keep logging in. A fair number of players stop playing, or at least play a lot less often, after obtaining a Legendary because they lack a long-term goal to work towards.”

Some, a fair number, not for the average player.

This is far from saying that Legendaries are there to motivate everyone. They are motivation for hardcore players, just as ascended gear was intended to motivate hardcore players who want to move up to high level fractals, but it is not necessary for open world content.

The casual player can enjoy the game just fine without either. The complaints against ascended/Legendary gear are based in misconceptions and therefore are invalid. I don’t complain about the price of luxury cars and yahts, because I know that they were never intended for someone like me.

once again i didnt not say you said it is to motivate everyone. I said people.
Complaints based on misconceptions are not invalid. in fact a great deal of conflict/complaints/issues are actually because of a misconception, or disconnect between two parties.

however it is harder to identify the source of the complaints/issues/contention if you have misconceptions, or misunderstandings.

i hope dusk will go up to 10 000 gold
then new legendary will come up and everyone who listed their dusks for 10 000 gold will never sell them !

back to the point of the thread, it appears that dusks are selling at 1500+ and the buy orders are not getting filled as fast as people may be used to. the buy orders seem to range from 1220-1300.

as it stands, it seems like the buy order will come up to the 1300 range,

im guessing if we take a look at the 60 hours after the gangsta move, we will say a fairly large increase in price.

phys.7689:

back to the point of the thread, it appears that dusks are selling at 1500+ and the buy orders are not getting filled as fast as people may be used to. the buy orders seem to range from 1220-1300.

as it stands, it seems like the buy order will come up to the 1300 range,

im guessing if we take a look at the 60 hours after the gangsta move, we will say a fairly large increase in price.

So you think that increase in demand was triggered because someone bought out the 3 remaining dusks right after patch and not due to the changes for Eternity?

phys.7689:

Hence, the disconnect for many players, who dont realize that earning gold is the actual focus of the game.

Well, this is not agreeing with me. In fact it’s pretty much the opposite of my position. My main goal in this game is to have fun, not to collect gold or buy shinies or make people jealous. Aside from the last of these, they are fun side activities, but my goal in playing the game is to have fun.

A certain part of the player base has been taught that “fun” is an endless hamster wheel-like chase after the latest shiny, and because GW2 is meant to be casual friendly most of these shinies share a lowest common denominator – they can be traded for gold.

So, if your definition of fun is “more shinies” then you’ll look for the fastest ways to make the most gold, and therefore obtain the most shinies. Since these activities are often boring, always repetitive (which eventually becomes boring for most people) and utilize a very limited part of the game world, it generally turns into not-fun very quickly.

Because I don’t care about shinies, I don’t care about gold either. I need a little for specific purposes, occasionally I make an effort to collect more for a specific goal, but I stop if I find the game becoming not-fun. I believe that this kind of play is what the game was designed for, the complaints come from those who want to remake the game into what they want, rather than accepting that this is not the kind of game they want to play.

APW.1569:

phys.7689:

back to the point of the thread, it appears that dusks are selling at 1500+ and the buy orders are not getting filled as fast as people may be used to. the buy orders seem to range from 1220-1300.

as it stands, it seems like the buy order will come up to the 1300 range,

im guessing if we take a look at the 60 hours after the gangsta move, we will say a fairly large increase in price.

So you think that increase in demand was triggered because someone bought out the 3 remaining dusks right after patch and not due to the changes for Eternity?

i think that the market can support higher prices for precursors in general. I think that in order for that to actually happen someone/group had to act in a way that leads others to follow suit.

because prices for luxuries of limited quantities are decided a lot by perception.
not just the perception of the buyers, but also the perception of the sellers.

Essentially the demand is high, the supply is low, but someone has to change the sellers paradigm thats why they buy up, and price high, so other people catch on to the fact they could get more for their goods.

based on my rough estimates on drop rates, populations, and risks to create, im pretty sure most popular precursors could sell for higher.

Welp I got a Dusk yesterday (yay RNG streaking!)

Immediately listed it for 1570 and it sold over night.

Thank you whoever decided to spike up these prices

From the forge Vol or actual drop. Nearly 5k hours and zero drops. I have gotten them from the forge before though. But that costs money.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

Hence, the disconnect for many players, who dont realize that earning gold is the actual focus of the game.

Well, this is not agreeing with me. In fact it’s pretty much the opposite of my position. My main goal in this game is to have fun, not to collect gold or buy shinies or make people jealous. Aside from the last of these, they are fun side activities, but my goal in playing the game is to have fun.

A certain part of the player base has been taught that “fun” is an endless hamster wheel-like chase after the latest shiny, and because GW2 is meant to be casual friendly most of these shinies share a lowest common denominator – they can be traded for gold.

So, if your definition of fun is “more shinies” then you’ll look for the fastest ways to make the most gold, and therefore obtain the most shinies. Since these activities are often boring, always repetitive (which eventually becomes boring for most people) and utilize a very limited part of the game world, it generally turns into not-fun very quickly.

Because I don’t care about shinies, I don’t care about gold either. I need a little for specific purposes, occasionally I make an effort to collect more for a specific goal, but I stop if I find the game becoming not-fun. I believe that this kind of play is what the game was designed for, the complaints come from those who want to remake the game into what they want, rather than accepting that this is not the kind of game they want to play.

i dont disagree with you in some respects.
i generally agree with some of your analysis

the main difference is, that while i understand that this is the way the game is. I dont think its a good paradigm to continue as the game matures. it doesnt necessarilly have to be shinies, but the game needs to create some more goals whose focus is less based on heavy grind/gold.

I personally believe that when you set up a games rules/rewards in a way that you have to ignore those systems to have fun, its a very bad rule/reward. it means you have good basic gameplay, with a bad execution of that gameplay.

You say accept it, and deal, i Say accept it, deal, but try to suggest they improve the game. That said, precursors/legendaries arent the most important thing in the game, i think attention tends to get focused on them once a player has little other goals to achieve.
but as you say any goal they add, that requires massive gold, or excessive grinding will suck the fun out of the game for many people.

I got it from the forge…spent about 400g in materials, which was about 800 greatswords (got it at around 700 greatswords)

Last week I spent a bit more than that and I got two dawns, but that was before the price hike

I feel like I should stop gambling since my luck is going to go out and I have more than enough gold…but I need MORE!

phys.7689:

the main difference is, that while i understand that this is the way the game is. I dont think its a good paradigm to continue as the game matures. it doesnt necessarilly have to be shinies, but the game needs to create some more goals whose focus is less based on heavy grind/gold.
.

They have done this, though the development process and the fact that they have chosen not to collect new content into a single expansion but release it over time makes it hard to see sometimes. Success is a matter of opinion, and expectations.

Fractals and ascended gear were early attempts to add rewards that were not tied to gold acquisition. Ascended crafting for the most part continues this, though being able to buy and sell some of the materials seems to be a concession to more casual players, who can turn materials they don’t have a need for into gold so the hardcores can get their shinies faster.

They added the wardrobe to be more casual friendly, you can spend a single weapon claim ticket and use the skin on multiple toons, making it less of a grind for players with alts to find good skins to use.

They changed the trait system and added new traits to give goal-oriented players something to work towards. I haven’t looked into it, so I don’t know how successful it is so far, but it shows they are listening to players’ concerns.

Many LS event rewards were account-bound and cannot be bought with gold. Minis, armor skins and such that can be collected but not traded on the TP. Mostly a casual goal, with a few exceptions, because the LS content is usually pretty simple to complete. But it gives players a way to personalize their toons without grinding for thousands of gold.

Legendaries are high profile items, but hardly the only goal in the game for players to work towards. Many changes have happend just in the last month or so, and more are coming. The main problem is impatience, players do not realize there is a process involved where devs collect and analyze data about the players, discuss their options, and have to develop and test several new systems, some of which will be discarded at some point, before deciding on what changes to make to the game. Issues that were discussed in Winter 2012 are only now making it into the game, and issues being discussed now will not be resolved for at least six months, to a year or more.

Players who see a situation like Dusk prices and expect something to be done this week will only be disappointed. It just doesn’t work like that.

tolunart.2095:

This means that the TP would quickly empty of any rare or exotic equipment as players rushed to complete their precursors, and new items would be listed at a much higher price than they are now. New players and players with alts to gear up would not be able to afford to buy rare/exotic equipment to use let alone salvage for a precursor. The prices of mithril, ori, etc. would crash as an unwanted side effect of salvaging for EoLeg.

Other than harming the rare/exotic markets (people who actually want to use the gear can’t get any) this doesn’t change the situation at all, you need to grind a lot of gold to get your precursor quickly, and when there are thousands of new Twilights running around the open world, doing it the hard way just makes players feel bad.

First off, I agree this discussion is purely in the hypothetical (I’m happy to discuss things in the hypothetical, but if that’s not your cup of tea I understand). Second, let me add that I have no problem with the number of precursors in existence right now, only the variance/distribution.

To begin with, I’d want these fragments to be thought of on a similar level (and thus price/rarity) as lodestones.

I don’t think this would increase the number of Twilights at all, nor should it (significantly) modify the demand of rares and exotics on the market. It should simply shift the market from throwing these rares and exotics in the force to salvaging them. Admittedly there might be some impact on ecto and major sigil/rune prices.

Let’s suppose players should expect to salvage 15000 rares (1/15 chance) to obtain enough fragments for a precursor (suppose it is valued at 1000 gold, or 100000 silver). Casual players are not going to be able to “rush” this. Furthermore, this would add 6.67 silver to the value of salvaging the rare.

You might see (all) rare weapons rising to kitten silver instead of 35-40, and given how often casuals get rares I don’t see this as a bad thing. Most of the ones that do will simply throw the fragments on the market, just like they do with lodestones.

Other than harming the rare/exotic markets (people who actually want to use the gear can’t get any) this doesn’t change the situation at all

I feel like pricier rares and exotics actually help most players, because they actually get them in their game play and can end up getting more for them. Hell, even pricier T5/T6 mats help them, because everyone gets them anyways. As I said before, I am not interested in increasing the supply of precursors, but simply spreading pieces of the precursor out so more players can benefit from them.