Guild Wars 2

I thought he/she was saying that regardless of hours played RNG sucks and is unfair regardless of time spent in the game. Even though if you had that many hours dedicated to making money in the game you’d have a better chance if you used in game gold, but that’s not really the case since you can buy the keys with cash too. I guess i don’t perceive that as entitlement, more like common sense. Maybe i’m just misunderstanding.

munkiman.3068:

I thought he/she was saying that regardless of hours played RNG sucks and is unfair regardless of time spent in the game. Even though if you had that many hours dedicated to making money in the game you’d have a better chance if you used in game gold, but that’s not really the case since you can buy the keys with cash too. I guess i don’t perceive that as entitlement, more like common sense. Maybe i’m just misunderstanding.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding as well. Perhaps it’s over the interpretation of “fair”.

I’m using it as RNG is fair in the sense that each key is given the same chance at loot as any other key. Regardless of all other factors (play time, gold/cash used to purchase, number of attempts, etc.).

Perhaps Delusion is using it in some other way. However, explicitly using comparisons about frequent and infrequent players, as well mentioning hours played as some measure of “dedication” were a distraction for me.

Yeah, I just used the feeling of being unfair with the guy sitting at a slot machine for 4 hours and losing, then someone walks up next to him and drops a jackpot on first pull. It feels unfair for sure and definitely will kitten most people off, which is why i question it as a game method for earning a skin, when you know the majority of people are going to feel like losers. Not really something you want your players to feel like.

I think they got a city in America that revolves around that exact same concept.

Ooshi.8607:

I think they got a city in America that revolves around that exact same concept.

Ha, several actually, gambling is everywhere. This game the base salary of everyone in game is so low, it’s like how popular gambling is in the poor neighborhoods here in the US (the lottery). They feel at least they have a chance to get out of the poor house.

We have a few similar places over here in Europe. Monte Carlo is one of our most famous slums. Terrible place filled with the destitute.

Ursan.7846:

Sure. This still doesn’t mean they “lied” like you try to claim in your original post.

It’s okay to not like the gambling nature of these boxes. I don’t like them myself. However, going around demanding apologies because they “Lied” in your mind is exceeding silly. Because they didn’t.

This is getting ridiculous. I’m going to make this even more clear, one last time, and then I’m done. I really don’t care what you think, but I want ArenaNet to straighten up, so I’d rather you not convince people of false things.

People are able to spend vast amount of real-life money and in-game gold without receiving the item they intent to purchase. Let’s look at this model in the most simplistic way it can be viewed. SPEND MONEY, DON’T GET ITEM. That model is absolutely the reality of the item shop for some people. Whether it is luck is irrelevant. You could only try to argue that what they claimed istrue if you are lucky, but there is no reason their statements should be taken that way. In other words, you would be trying to twist the circumstance into making gambling ok. ArenaNet added in CHANCE to a promised model of PAY-GET. Now you keep using the word GET in your responses to defend them, even though so many people did not GET the weapon skin they attempted to purchase. One more time, are players able to PAY MONEY, GET ITEM. No, they are not. If you want to argue that, ask the people who spent over $100 and have no weapon skin. That makes the promised model a lie. I’m done. ArenaNet, I love your game. Please get this right so I can give you money and feel good about your awesome game.

peacemaker.5634:

This is getting ridiculous. I’m going to make this even more clear, one last time, and then I’m done. I really don’t care what you think, but I want ArenaNet to straighten up, so I’d rather you not convince people of false things.

Whooooooooooosh.

That, again, is the sound of you completely and utterly missing my point. What his this “false thing” I’m trying to convince people of? That the three quotes you attributed to them aren’t a lie?

“If you want something, whether it’s an in-game item or a microtransaction, you ultimately have two ways to get it: you can play to earn gold or you can use money to buy gems. We think that’s important, because it lets more players participate on a level playing field, whether they use their free time or their disposable income to do it.”

Translation: “There are two way to purchase microtransaction items, in-game gold or real money.”

Verdict: Still true. You can purchase Gem Store items with both in-game gold and real money.

“Punch number two is that there’s now an equivalence between time and money. If I’m a player who can play the game a lot and there’s something I want, I don’t need to pay for it. If I’m a player who can’t play the game a lot, but I want things in the game also, I can spend money on microtransactions.”

Translation: “Players can convert time spend either in-game or in real life to purchase microtransaction items.”

Verdict: Still true. Players can spend time in-game to earn in-game gold, or players can convert time spent in life and earn money. Both can be used to purchase Gem Store items.

One really important thing to note is, we don’t ever sell anything in there that makes your character more powerful. That’s really important to us.
We like to do the – we like to call it the Is it Evil? test. Every micro-transaction that we do in the game, we have everyone in the company look at it and say Is it Evil? Is it really something we should be selling?
Generally, the stuff in our store is purely cosmetic; it’s bonus stuff, it’s extra stuff you can get if you want to, but it’s not stuff you have to buy to play the game.

Translation: Things sold in the Gem store will be all cosmetic or luxury items.

Verdict: Still true. Nothing in the Gem Store grants you items with extra stats or anything. Everything is really a luxury that is not required to play the game.

Upon repeated examinations, for the life of me I cannot see ANYWHERE where Anet has lied, because everything they stated in these quotes still hold true.

I’m going to repeat myself again. I do not like RNG, which is why I do not support RNG by not purchasing Keys. However, digging up some quotes, twisting them, and claiming your interpretation of them are a “lie” is a very silly thing to do.

Actually im luckier in vegas than in gw2.In vegas i would put 2 bucks in and get 80 to 100 out of it..in gw2 I spend way more that that and all i get is stuff i dont use or want…

peacemaker.5634:

Ursan.7846:

Sure. This still doesn’t mean they “lied” like you try to claim in your original post.

It’s okay to not like the gambling nature of these boxes. I don’t like them myself. However, going around demanding apologies because they “Lied” in your mind is exceeding silly. Because they didn’t.

This is getting ridiculous. I’m going to make this even more clear, one last time, and then I’m done. I really don’t care what you think, but I want ArenaNet to straighten up, so I’d rather you not convince people of false things.

People are able to spend vast amount of real-life money and in-game gold without receiving the item they intent to purchase. Let’s look at this model in the most simplistic way it can be viewed. SPEND MONEY, DON’T GET ITEM. That model is absolutely the reality of the item shop for some people. Whether it is luck is irrelevant. You could only try to argue that what they claimed istrue if you are lucky, but there is no reason their statements should be taken that way. In other words, you would be trying to twist the circumstance into making gambling ok. ArenaNet added in CHANCE to a promised model of PAY-GET. Now you keep using the word GET in your responses to defend them, even though so many people did not GET the weapon skin they attempted to purchase. One more time, are players able to PAY MONEY, GET ITEM. No, they are not. If you want to argue that, ask the people who spent over $100 and have no weapon skin. That makes the promised model a lie. I’m done. ArenaNet, I love your game. Please get this right so I can give you money and feel good about your awesome game.

I don’t understand your argument. Where’s the “lie” in all of this? Basically, you have gear with a set standard: White, Blue, Green, Yellow, Gold. Each color represents rarity and strength. Anet made it so that while Gold color (Exotic) weapons are rare and strong, they’re fairly easy to get. Fancy skins, while pretty or epic looking, don’t add to the stat value of any item. In order to play this game, you are not required to have a fancy skin in order to have the best weapon. In fact, you don’t even need to play with an Exotic weapon. With skill, someone can easily do better with a White common weapon than a nub with an Exotic.

Each player chooses to buy keys for a chance at a random prize. To complain that you didn’t get what you wanted shows your lack of understanding of what chance means. What it comes down to is: It’s your fault for expecting something with no guarentee.

I’m with Ursan on this one. I don’t fancy the RNG element of the chests so I don’t purchase keys (although I do like getting the occasional key drop and trying my luck with those), but I don’t blame ANet for putting certain skins in the chests to boost key sales. In part this is because they have added other skins to the game that can be obtained by other means (e.g. SAB skins).

Sure the RNG element may be frustrating for someone who absolutely must have that particular skin, but for most people there should be reasonable alternatives they can pursue instead

peacemaker.5634:

This is getting ridiculous. I’m going to make this even more clear, one last time, and then I’m done. I really don’t care what you think, but I want ArenaNet to straighten up, so I’d rather you not convince people of false things.

People are able to spend vast amount of real-life money and in-game gold without receiving the item they intent to purchase. Let’s look at this model in the most simplistic way it can be viewed. SPEND MONEY, DON’T GET ITEM. That model is absolutely the reality of the item shop for some people.
….

That makes the promised model a lie.

This is an inaccurate depiction of the Black Lion Chest.

The actual depiction:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Chest

There has always been a random element to the BLC in addition to a guaranteed element(s).

Any other interpretation of the expected result is purely an individual’s expectation. To presume to ever be guaranteed to receive an explicit result is optimistic at best.

That, not what is described above, is the reality.

If you where so bothered by this you would have left at Halloween, they’ve done this before and they will do it again.. While I do not like the practice, I can vote with my wallet, you can do the same. For the most of it I’m fine with it since I’m not required to gamble my money and people who want to can go right ahead, good luck.

Mourningcry.9428:

This is an inaccurate depiction of the Black Lion Chest.

I’ve not been arguing about the BLC. That isn’t my point. It would be totally cool if they want to sell a gambling box that might offer you some cash shop items at a cheaper price if you’re lucky. It’s the fact that you can only get the items this way that I am debating about. I’m done debating that subject, so I won’t respond about that anymore.

Ticking off your customers, ones who you want to spend money on Gems for the gem shop, your only post game sale income, wasn’t all that smart.

How do you fix that? I think offering the weapon skins at the gem shop straight up could simply tick even more off, those who went a little crazy buying keys. At least now finding someone wielding a fused skin weapon is at least a symbol of either your luck or bank account (in game or out of). Makes the player feel somewhat special. Of course it alienates everyone who wanted one and didn’t get one.

peacemaker.5634:

That isn’t my point.

No, your original point is this.

peacemaker.5634:

Conclusion: ArenaNet lied.

Which they didn’t, and why I’m calling you out on it.

peacemaker.5634:

Mourningcry.9428:

This is an inaccurate depiction of the Black Lion Chest.

I’ve not been arguing about the BLC. That isn’t my point. …

Do you really need me to go and pull quotes from your previous posts on this very topic where you explicitly talk about BLC and they’re supposed outcome of returning “nothing”.

Regardless of that, and has been demonstrated by other posters, the BLC is a perfectly viable method for ANET delivering content players that lies well within the bounds of their policy, and even within those quotes you posted.

It may not be the most favorable method from the player’s perspective, but it is a completely viable one, and is the same model originally introduced.

It probably is best for you to stop responding. Especially if you’re not even going to try to be consistent about what you’re attempting to convey.

Calae.1738:

Why is it that they design a system that makes the customer roll dice for a chance to get what they want? The store keeps our money even if we don’t get what we want.

And that is the point. This way, 1. they get to keep your money no matter what, and 2. they don’t flood the economy with valuable luxury goods.

2 for the price of 1, how can ArenaNet lose?!

To put it simply, it makes sense for ArenaNet to have this because it works so much to their favor. I am not saying that I like it from a customer’s perspective, but it is obvious to me why they would choose this route.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Calae.1738:

Why is it that they design a system that makes the customer roll dice for a chance to get what they want? The store keeps our money even if we don’t get what we want.

And that is the point. This way, 1. they get to keep your money no matter what, and 2. they don’t flood the economy with valuable luxury goods.

2 for the price of 1, how can ArenaNet lose?!

To put it simply, it makes sense for ArenaNet to have this because it works so much to their favor. I am not saying that I like it from a customer’s perspective, but it is obvious to me why they would choose this route.

The problem with this route is that it only works for a short period of time. People catch on and move along.

OmniPotentes.4817:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Calae.1738:

Why is it that they design a system that makes the customer roll dice for a chance to get what they want? The store keeps our money even if we don’t get what we want.

And that is the point. This way, 1. they get to keep your money no matter what, and 2. they don’t flood the economy with valuable luxury goods.

2 for the price of 1, how can ArenaNet lose?!

To put it simply, it makes sense for ArenaNet to have this because it works so much to their favor. I am not saying that I like it from a customer’s perspective, but it is obvious to me why they would choose this route.

The problem with this route is that it only works for a short period of time. People catch on and move along.

The problem is, that it continues to work. Each and every time. Each time they have had these gamble boxes, there are multiple threads with people posting that they opened 100 or more boxes. Outraged people everywhere!!! People claiming they will never do this again. But obviously ANet is making a lot of money from this and as the saying goes, Money talks. As long as people buy large numbers of keys each time, it’s to the companies’ benefit. The customer can be as outraged as they want afterwards but ANet has the money to prove that the system is “working as intended”.

As long as they make more money doing this than they would make selling the skins directly, they will continue selling thru RNG. It appears they are making more money selling thru RNG, so we will continue to see gamble boxes.

Did anyone ever open a chest and actually get NOTHING? You all spent your hard earned gold (oh, you spent cash, hmmm) to buy a key & got SOMETHING when you opened the chest. If you don’t like what you get when you open a chest, stop buying keys & opening chests. Well, actually please do—that way I don’t have to pay cash to keep playing. Thank you all for pitching in enough cash to cover my share!! See you all in two months when they unveil the next RNG chest drop!

peacemaker.5634:

This is getting ridiculous.

It is. Because a basic concept is not permeating the membranes here:

You. CANNOT. Purchase. A. Fused. Weapon. Ticket.

They are not for sale.
There is no going price.
There is no amount of money in the universe that will give a 100% chance of acquistion.

If you want to buy one… tough.

If you want to dink around with the game’s slot machine, you might be pleasantly surprised. Or you might get the basic doo-dads that are the only thing you should be expecting out of the deal. But if you walk up to it assuming you’ll win, its going to kick your backside. Repeatedly. Or not, depending on RNG’s mood.

I currently don’t see any way to purchase fractal weapons either. So any presumption of such a promise (got a link?) were pretty much dispelled months ago in my book.

Astral Projections.7320:

OmniPotentes.4817:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Calae.1738:

Why is it that they design a system that makes the customer roll dice for a chance to get what they want? The store keeps our money even if we don’t get what we want.

And that is the point. This way, 1. they get to keep your money no matter what, and 2. they don’t flood the economy with valuable luxury goods.

2 for the price of 1, how can ArenaNet lose?!

To put it simply, it makes sense for ArenaNet to have this because it works so much to their favor. I am not saying that I like it from a customer’s perspective, but it is obvious to me why they would choose this route.

The problem with this route is that it only works for a short period of time. People catch on and move along.

The problem is, that it continues to work. Each and every time. Each time they have had these gamble boxes, there are multiple threads with people posting that they opened 100 or more boxes. Outraged people everywhere!!! People claiming they will never do this again. But obviously ANet is making a lot of money from this and as the saying goes, Money talks. As long as people buy large numbers of keys each time, it’s to the companies’ benefit. The customer can be as outraged as they want afterwards but ANet has the money to prove that the system is “working as intended”.

As long as they make more money doing this than they would make selling the skins directly, they will continue selling thru RNG. It appears they are making more money selling thru RNG, so we will continue to see gamble boxes.

Time is a relative concept. By the looks of it GW2 won’t have the longevity of its prequel. What I ment to say is that RNG crap might be working now; 7 months into the game; but 12 to 16 months from now enough people will have gotten burned to know better.

Astral Projections.7320:

OmniPotentes.4817:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Calae.1738:

Why is it that they design a system that makes the customer roll dice for a chance to get what they want? The store keeps our money even if we don’t get what we want.

And that is the point. This way, 1. they get to keep your money no matter what, and 2. they don’t flood the economy with valuable luxury goods.

2 for the price of 1, how can ArenaNet lose?!

To put it simply, it makes sense for ArenaNet to have this because it works so much to their favor. I am not saying that I like it from a customer’s perspective, but it is obvious to me why they would choose this route.

The problem with this route is that it only works for a short period of time. People catch on and move along.

The problem is, that it continues to work. Each and every time. Each time they have had these gamble boxes, there are multiple threads with people posting that they opened 100 or more boxes. Outraged people everywhere!!! People claiming they will never do this again. But obviously ANet is making a lot of money from this and as the saying goes, Money talks. As long as people buy large numbers of keys each time, it’s to the companies’ benefit. The customer can be as outraged as they want afterwards but ANet has the money to prove that the system is “working as intended”.

As long as they make more money doing this than they would make selling the skins directly, they will continue selling thru RNG. It appears they are making more money selling thru RNG, so we will continue to see gamble boxes.

It will work assuming they continue to have a fresh supply of fools joining the game. The veterans have already understood the scam and moved on.

I raised this as an issue with Anet after spending a silly amount on keys to get the/a skin and got nothing back.

This was the answer

Fused Weapon Claim Tickets have an extremely rare chance of appearing in any Black Lion Chest (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fused_Weapon_Claim_Ticket). Although we would be unable to provide specifics on their rarity, please understand that increasing the number of chests you unlock does not necessarily increase your chances of receiving a specific item. This is true for all loot within the game. For instance, if an item has a 1 and 10 chance of appearing, that does not mean looting a corpse or chest 10 times guarantees 1 of those items will drop. It only means every time you loot, there is a 1 and 10 chance. Your attempts to find an item do not calculate on a collective level and trigger different results based on your history of looting.

So for me spending cash on this is over. I could spend all the money in the world and still not get anything, Don’t even get me started on the mystic toilet.

I don’t mind spending a bit of cash on games but there comes a point when you realise you are playing a mugs game and stop. Anet will win in the short term, but I bet a lot of ppl like me wont be filling there coffers in the long run. Such a good game being ruined by some silly grab the cash mechanics.

GW2 “Gambling Wars 2” it should be called.

Calae.1738:

Astral Projections.7320:

OmniPotentes.4817:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Calae.1738:

Why is it that they design a system that makes the customer roll dice for a chance to get what they want? The store keeps our money even if we don’t get what we want.

And that is the point. This way, 1. they get to keep your money no matter what, and 2. they don’t flood the economy with valuable luxury goods.

2 for the price of 1, how can ArenaNet lose?!

To put it simply, it makes sense for ArenaNet to have this because it works so much to their favor. I am not saying that I like it from a customer’s perspective, but it is obvious to me why they would choose this route.

The problem with this route is that it only works for a short period of time. People catch on and move along.

The problem is, that it continues to work. Each and every time. Each time they have had these gamble boxes, there are multiple threads with people posting that they opened 100 or more boxes. Outraged people everywhere!!! People claiming they will never do this again. But obviously ANet is making a lot of money from this and as the saying goes, Money talks. As long as people buy large numbers of keys each time, it’s to the companies’ benefit. The customer can be as outraged as they want afterwards but ANet has the money to prove that the system is “working as intended”.

As long as they make more money doing this than they would make selling the skins directly, they will continue selling thru RNG. It appears they are making more money selling thru RNG, so we will continue to see gamble boxes.

It will work assuming they continue to have a fresh supply of fools joining the game. The veterans have already understood the scam and moved on.

The ones that tried it, got bit and moved on, yes. However all games have a “churn” of people coming and going. Veterans who know better leave or stop buying. However new, unsuspecting, people come in. As well as those that
1)missed previous gamble boxes
2)didn’t have the money then
3)tried previously and got what they wanted easily so they feel confident
4)didn’t attempt it then because they didn’t like those previous skins.

So each time a new set of gamble boxes comes out, there will be a fresh new set of people who will open multiple boxes. The attrition rate is going to be slow. All ANet needs to do is to tune the drop rate to keep the churn going by having enough people who get the skins either easily or or just to the point they are mildly annoyed. This will bring in more money than straight sales and they can ignore the outraged outliers who were scorned by the RNG god.

Astral Projections.7320:

Outraged people everywhere!!! People claiming they will never do this again. But obviously ANet is making a lot of money from this and as the saying goes, Money talks. As long as people buy large numbers of keys each time, it’s to the companies’ benefit. The customer can be as outraged as they want afterwards but ANet has the money to prove that the system is “working as intended”.

The issue people are having here is the ridiculous and dramatic overrepresentation of outrage. There aren’t outraged people everywhere. There’s well over 3 million GW2 accounts. If we assume even 25% of those are active (and that they haven’t sold any additional units since January), we’re talking about 750,000 people. Some 30-40 people possibly, at the extreme maximum, have come to the forums to cry about their outrage over Black Lion Chests. Even if we assume only 1% of people outraged will complain (it’s more likely that figure is over 20%) we’re talking about around 0.5% of players outraged. The vast majority of players simply don’t care. Being outraged about this is an extreme niche, and not some sort of popular movement.

Syeria.4812:

Astral Projections.7320:

Outraged people everywhere!!! People claiming they will never do this again. But obviously ANet is making a lot of money from this and as the saying goes, Money talks. As long as people buy large numbers of keys each time, it’s to the companies’ benefit. The customer can be as outraged as they want afterwards but ANet has the money to prove that the system is “working as intended”.

The issue people are having here is the ridiculous and dramatic overrepresentation of outrage. There aren’t outraged people everywhere. There’s well over 3 million GW2 accounts. If we assume even 25% of those are active (and that they haven’t sold any additional units since January), we’re talking about 750,000 people. Some 30-40 people possibly, at the extreme maximum, have come to the forums to cry about their outrage over Black Lion Chests. Even if we assume only 1% of people outraged will complain (it’s more likely that figure is over 20%) we’re talking about around 0.5% of players outraged. The vast majority of players simply don’t care. Being outraged about this is an extreme niche, and not some sort of popular movement.

(Sigh) Multiple exclamation marks indicates dramatic license and emphasis. Not to be taken literally. Yes, I know there aren’t actually “outraged people everywhere”. I guess English isn’t your first language. As a clue, when you see something that looks a little off to you, you might consider stuff like irony or emphasis.

Astral Projections.7320:

Syeria.4812:

Astral Projections.7320:

Outraged people everywhere!!! People claiming they will never do this again. But obviously ANet is making a lot of money from this and as the saying goes, Money talks. As long as people buy large numbers of keys each time, it’s to the companies’ benefit. The customer can be as outraged as they want afterwards but ANet has the money to prove that the system is “working as intended”.

The issue people are having here is the ridiculous and dramatic overrepresentation of outrage. There aren’t outraged people everywhere. There’s well over 3 million GW2 accounts. If we assume even 25% of those are active (and that they haven’t sold any additional units since January), we’re talking about 750,000 people. Some 30-40 people possibly, at the extreme maximum, have come to the forums to cry about their outrage over Black Lion Chests. Even if we assume only 1% of people outraged will complain (it’s more likely that figure is over 20%) we’re talking about around 0.5% of players outraged. The vast majority of players simply don’t care. Being outraged about this is an extreme niche, and not some sort of popular movement.

(Sigh) Multiple exclamation marks indicates dramatic license and emphasis. Not to be taken literally. Yes, I know there aren’t actually “outraged people everywhere”. I guess English isn’t your first language. As a clue, when you see something that looks a little off to you, you might consider stuff like irony or emphasis.

If we’re randomly throwing out completely silly and baseless ad hominems, I’m guessing your education stopped around the 8th grade.

If you’d get a clue, you’d realize that your red herring complaints about a factual post actually do nothing to diminish the claims made there. It’s an incredibly important point that the numerous cry babies around here have continually failed to recognize. There are extremely few dissatisfied people. As a percentage of the player base, almost no one cares. It’s a complete non-issue because it’s so incredibly small, it’s not even worth discussing, no matter how irrationally crazed you are.

Syeria.4812:

Astral Projections.7320:

Syeria.4812:

Astral Projections.7320:

Outraged people everywhere!!! People claiming they will never do this again. But obviously ANet is making a lot of money from this and as the saying goes, Money talks. As long as people buy large numbers of keys each time, it’s to the companies’ benefit. The customer can be as outraged as they want afterwards but ANet has the money to prove that the system is “working as intended”.

The issue people are having here is the ridiculous and dramatic overrepresentation of outrage. There aren’t outraged people everywhere. There’s well over 3 million GW2 accounts. If we assume even 25% of those are active (and that they haven’t sold any additional units since January), we’re talking about 750,000 people. Some 30-40 people possibly, at the extreme maximum, have come to the forums to cry about their outrage over Black Lion Chests. Even if we assume only 1% of people outraged will complain (it’s more likely that figure is over 20%) we’re talking about around 0.5% of players outraged. The vast majority of players simply don’t care. Being outraged about this is an extreme niche, and not some sort of popular movement.

(Sigh) Multiple exclamation marks indicates dramatic license and emphasis. Not to be taken literally. Yes, I know there aren’t actually “outraged people everywhere”. I guess English isn’t your first language. As a clue, when you see something that looks a little off to you, you might consider stuff like irony or emphasis.

If we’re randomly throwing out completely silly and baseless ad hominems, I’m guessing your education stopped around the 8th grade.

If you’d get a clue, you’d realize that your red herring complaints about a factual post actually do nothing to diminish the claims made there. It’s an incredibly important point that the numerous cry babies around here have continually failed to recognize. There are extremely few dissatisfied people. As a percentage of the player base, almost no one cares. It’s a complete non-issue because it’s so incredibly small, it’s not even worth discussing, no matter how irrationally crazed you are.

It was making a point concerning the people who buy multiple boxes then make threads in the forums, and post on those threads, expressing outrage and saying they will never buy these again. And how it doesn’t matter to ANet about these people as long as other people buy these boxes in the future. As long as ANet makes more money with this system than thru straight sales, then there can be outraged people everywhere, posting multiple threads each time, and they will still continue to sale this way.

And it is important to the people in this thread who have been discussing it.

Comment: I haven’t bought any keys, I dislike them selling skins by chance. If I put down money, I want to buy something. Not a chance to get it.

During Halloween I spent about £40 on keys because I’d enjoyed the game so much by that point I wanted to give Anet some more money for doing such a great job. No skins received. I wasn’t exactly upset because my reason for spending the money wasn’t to get any skins (I just bought the ones I wanted for gold), but I still regretted my purchase afterwards, and it still turned me off buying chests. I would have been better off mailing a cheque for £40 to Anet HQ because all I got for my trouble was a load of kitten to clog up my bank and a feeling of disappointment.

I’d like to support your game through the cash shop, unfortunately the chest containing all the best items is marketed solely towards the uninformed, those with money to burn, or those without self control.

Please put up worthwhile items for set amounts on the gem store. I’ve never seen someone in-game wearing one of those dumb hoodies, and with good reason. Just give up on gem store town clothes for now, it needs a complete rethink (wearable in combat and more options that don’t cost gems to get people in the door). Permanent hair style, bank access, and black lion traders should be available for a respectable amount of money, $20/30 perhaps. Oh and if you ever get around to adding more armor to the game for the love of God don’t put it in the chests, with the already limited selection of armor in this game that would truly be insulting.

Next to nobody who has opened a large number of chests would consider them a value. This is not the correct way to run a shop in the long term, no matter how many people are buying keys right now. Don’t forget about all the money you’ve left on the table from people who aren’t going to let the Black Lion screw them for a shot at a flaming sword.

It’s such a poor way to run a store. I can see other development studios making much better use of their store and I’ll be supporting them; not arenanet.

OmniPotentes.4817:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Calae.1738:

Why is it that they design a system that makes the customer roll dice for a chance to get what they want? The store keeps our money even if we don’t get what we want.

And that is the point. This way, 1. they get to keep your money no matter what, and 2. they don’t flood the economy with valuable luxury goods.

2 for the price of 1, how can ArenaNet lose?!

To put it simply, it makes sense for ArenaNet to have this because it works so much to their favor. I am not saying that I like it from a customer’s perspective, but it is obvious to me why they would choose this route.

The problem with this route is that it only works for a short period of time. People catch on and move along.

I disagree, many people would still go along with it no matter the complaints so long as they can see that there is a winner.

That is the psychology that lottery advertisers have been applying for decades. “The next winner could be you!” Even though there is a very high chance that it won’t be you, the human brain doesn’t take that into account very well.

Online gambling is heavily regulated/prohibited by law. I only hope ArenaNet know what they tinker with. Because Black Lion chests sure fit the description.

FourthVariety.5463:

Online gambling is heavily regulated/prohibited by law. I only hope ArenaNet know what they tinker with. Because Black Lion chests sure fit the description.

No BLC don’t with respect to online gambling. Heavily discussed earlier.

FourthVariety.5463:

Online gambling is heavily regulated/prohibited by law. I only hope ArenaNet know what they tinker with. Because Black Lion chests sure fit the description.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the chests don’t fit any legal description of gambling I’ve ever encountered. If you can show me otherwise, please do so.

Edit: I’ve just looked up the legislation regarding gambling in my jurisdiction and the definition of gambling is as follows:

“gambling—

(a) means paying or staking consideration, directly or indirectly, on the outcome of something seeking to win money when the outcome depends wholly or partly on chance; and

(b) includes a sales promotion scheme; and

© includes bookmaking; and

(d) includes betting, paying, or staking consideration on the outcome of a sporting event; but

(e) does not include an act, behaviour, or transaction that is declared not to be gambling by regulations made under section 368"

FourthVariety.5463:

Online gambling is heavily regulated/prohibited by law. I only hope ArenaNet know what they tinker with. Because Black Lion chests sure fit the description.

We had a discussion earlier, but since virtual property legally does not have any real-life value, what Anet is doing is not legally “gambling.”

The only thing I will add to this discussion that I believe ANet SHOULD have made the Fused weapon skins tradable. If you were a player who only has a Warrior, and you happened to get a Fused Staff skin from a chest, you now have a skin which others may want, but is completely useless to you.

If even Legendaries can be purchased on the TP, I see no reason why Fused skins shouldn’t be.

European GW2 Servers are in Germany:

Relevant Legal Passage #1

Legal Text
§ 3 Abs. 1 des Glücksspielstaatsvertrages (GlüStV)
Ein Glücksspiel liegt vor, wenn im Rahmen eines Spiels für den Erwerb einer Gewinnchance ein Entgelt verlangt wird und die Entscheidung über den Gewinn ganz oder überwiegend vom Zufall abhängt.

English Translation:
Gambling is defined when money is being charged for the chance to win something and the decision over what is won being subject to a totally or partially randomized process.

Important Detail:
It does not matter if the thing you win has any value. In the eyes of the German law gambling happens when access is being sold, not when earnings are given back to the gambler. This is to accommodate certain local varieties of gambling under this law and how the one armed bandit industry killed arcades at the height of their popularity.

Relevant Legal Passage #2

§ 284 StGB
(1) Wer ohne behördliche Erlaubnis öffentlich ein Glücksspiel veranstaltet oder hält oder die Einrichtungen hierzu bereitstellt, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu zwei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.

English Translation
Anybody operating or providing a venue for gambling without license shall be punished with two years in prison or a fine.

No, you cannot simply get a license. The EU has criticized Germany for its strict way of clinging to all gambling being a state-run monopoly. But apart from loophole remnants originating in former East Germany, there is little to no chance of getting a gambling license. If you are an NGO, such as the Red Cross, you might get the right to operate a lottery booth at the Oktoberfest, but that is about the extend of leeway you can expect.

As long as nobody sues you, chances are good you will remain under the radar, but it is not a good situation.

FourthVariety.5463:

European GW2 Servers are in Germany:

Relevant Legal Passage #1

Legal Text
§ 3 Abs. 1 des Glücksspielstaatsvertrages (GlüStV)
Ein Glücksspiel liegt vor, wenn im Rahmen eines Spiels für den Erwerb einer Gewinnchance ein Entgelt verlangt wird und die Entscheidung über den Gewinn ganz oder überwiegend vom Zufall abhängt.

English Translation:
Gambling is defined when money is being charged for the chance to win something and the decision over what is won being subject to a totally or partially randomized process.

Important Detail:
It does not matter if the thing you win has any value. In the eyes of the German law gambling happens when access is being sold, not when earnings are given back to the gambler. This is to accommodate certain local varieties of gambling under this law and how the one armed bandit industry killed arcades at the height of their popularity.

(Snip)

The law in this case may hinge upon whether or not the items you are winning are actual, physical items, not whether or not they have value. It may not cover pixels and if it doesn’t, then that’s the loophole that ANet is using. Since all these companies ignore the gambling laws, my guess is that pixels have been ruled as exempt. Which I am not saying I agree with, merely that they have.

Morrar.1764:

Ursan.7846:

Hey guys,

It is legally gambling only if you can cash out. With actual money, not virtual skins.

Since all virtual items in-game are legally owned by Anet, so no, legally these chests are not gambling.

It is not so simple. In a earlier case where virtual property was stolen from someone in an MMO called Runescape, the judge ruled that virtual goods are equal to actual property.

I found that really interesting so I dug up the article.

From the Google translation of the findings (which were in Dutch)

For the victim, the suspect and his co-defendant in the game through their effort and time investment assets accumulated fair value. This can them be removed. The victim in the actual game and exclusive control over those objects. Through the actions of the defendant and co-defendant is the victim who lost power. According to the Supreme Court, the Court may conclude from this that there is theft.

Saying that it’s theft if someone removes something of value from you is not the same thing as ruling that virtual property is equal to actual property. The precedent was:

Art. 310 Sr protects the disposal of the holder of a well. Under previous law, a well, a non-physical object.

The translation makes it difficult to understand what the court was comparing it to… Any Nederlanders around?

What about this as an analogy? I have a house (a game) that you can come inside of (log onto) and play. While you are in my house, you may play with the items in there, but I retain ownership at all times. One day I get some nice new items which I put inside some boxes and say, you pay me money for keys to open up these boxes. If the box has the item then while you are in my house you may play with it. I however, still retain ownership of the items.

Is this gambling? Since ownership never transferred, I would have to say no.

Astral Projections.7320:

What about this as an analogy? I have a house (a game) that you can come inside of (log onto) and play. While you are in my house, you may play with the items in there, but I retain ownership at all times. One day I get some nice new items which I put inside some boxes and say, you pay me money for keys to open up these boxes. If the box has the item then while you are in my house you may play with it. I however, still retain ownership of the items.

Is this gambling? Since ownership never transferred, I would have to say no.

You can’t start using logical comparisons and analogies on the forums. Peoples heads will start to explode.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

Astral Projections.7320:

What about this as an analogy? I have a house (a game) that you can come inside of (log onto) and play. While you are in my house, you may play with the items in there, but I retain ownership at all times. One day I get some nice new items which I put inside some boxes and say, you pay me money for keys to open up these boxes. If the box has the item then while you are in my house you may play with it. I however, still retain ownership of the items.

Is this gambling? Since ownership never transferred, I would have to say no.

You can’t start using logical comparisons and analogies on the forums. Peoples heads will start to explode.

Even referencing that kind of behavior can be seen as antagonistic.

Astral Projections.7320:

The law in this case may hinge upon whether or not the items you are winning are actual, physical items, not whether or not they have value.

The German law does not hinge at all. The value of what you can win is never of any relevance in the eyes of German gambling law. If you organize a Magic the Gathering tournament with no prices and only take 1€ per player to cover the rent of the place, you will be in deep trouble.

Money is taken in exchange for a one time participation at a game of chance. No matter which price is at stake, you do that, you can be attacked. I’ve seen that up close and personal.

If you pay 20€ for eternal participation in a game of chance and/or to buy a slot machine simulator, the whole ordeal is suddenly ok. That is the loophole, which has nothing to do how Black Lion Keys work.

I refuse to spend money for a “chance” to get something I want.
If I was able to buy the item I wanted then I would spend money for it. I don’t like gambling and will not contribute to it.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

Astral Projections.7320:

What about this as an analogy? I have a house (a game) that you can come inside of (log onto) and play. While you are in my house, you may play with the items in there, but I retain ownership at all times. One day I get some nice new items which I put inside some boxes and say, you pay me money for keys to open up these boxes. If the box has the item then while you are in my house you may play with it. I however, still retain ownership of the items.

Is this gambling? Since ownership never transferred, I would have to say no.

You can’t start using logical comparisons and analogies on the forums. Peoples heads will start to explode.

This is also the way to lose players, which is also going to lose revenue in the long term. The games that succeed with this transaction system clearly offer players these in game items at a cost, not on a chance at an item. I’m actually not kitten about not receiving my item since i pretty much figured the risk was that i wouldn’t, but I can also say I won’t continue this method. Arguably this is worse than gambling since the real world value is nil. Sadly if Anet continues this trend, I’ll be forced to quit as i simply cannot in good conscious continue to support it. Not only do they keep the player base poor, they offer things that cater to that base, they are in the short term successfully creating a wealth treadmill over a gear one.

FourthVariety.5463:

The German law does not hinge at all. The value of what you can win is never of any relevance in the eyes of German gambling law. If you organize a Magic the Gathering tournament with no prices and only take 1€ per player to cover the rent of the place, you will be in deep trouble.

Money is taken in exchange for a one time participation at a game of chance. No matter which price is at stake, you do that, you can be attacked. I’ve seen that up close and personal.

If you pay 20€ for eternal participation in a game of chance and/or to buy a slot machine simulator, the whole ordeal is suddenly ok. That is the loophole, which has nothing to do how Black Lion Keys work.

Honestly, do you think a that of all the resources spent to bring GW2 to market, some significant portion of those wouldn’t have been on legal consultations regarding commerce, IP, trade, and countless other legal aspects to the point where the decision makers felt they were in a secure position not to open themselves up for frivolous legal action?

Or, are you just playing devil’s advocate?

How many developers does ArenaNet have and yet many players will call something a bad idea.
How many programmers does ArenaNet have, yet there are still bugs.
How many translators were required yet there are bad translations.

So no, I do not believe there is legal advice happening on every level, things can slip through cracks anywhere. Just like the design decision, the NPC script or the the translation a legally risky thing can pass unnoticed into the release. But I can tell you what a lawyer would say to ArenaNet. “Let them try sue us”, then reassure ArenaNet they would win and then cash in. NCSOFT has been there before with Richard Garriott, they were pretty sure not to lose that legal battle and look how it turned out.

But there is safety in anonymity. ArenaNet is not top pickings when it comes to hunting down illegal betting rings. District attorneys and the police rather hunt meth dealers and soccer fans, careers are to be made there, 2013 is a general election year. And if anybody in the Frankfurt area wants to make a career out of going after a white whale, they go after a bank or investment company, not an obscure American company that nobody reading the newspaper will recognize.

But still, the bases are not covered and competitors can be spiteful and dastardly.

FourthVariety.5463:

How many developers does ArenaNet have and yet many players will call something a bad idea.
How many programmers does ArenaNet have, yet there are still bugs.
How many translators were required yet there are bad translations.

Uh.

1. Anything a developer does, some players will always call it a bad idea because not everyone thinks the same.
2. By that same logic, how many programmers do you think Microsoft has, since all of their software has bugs, you know.

But do you seriously think a triple-A MMO HASN’T done their legal homework before investing millions of dollars into it? Really?