Guild Wars 2

Essence Snow.3194:

I’m not arguing that they are bad. I just think the allowance they are given is out of balance with the rest of the game, which results in disparity.

They are not given anything. The market works according to players’ desire for instant gratification. You cannot remove the potential for instant gratification without making the experience worse for the majority of players. The TP “barons” will adapt while the average player suffers.

In terms as simple as I can think of:

The PvE and PvP games are under the control of Anet. They set how much damage you can do, what skills you have, and what loot drops. Players can control what parts of the game they participate in.

The TP is under the control of the players. They decide what they want and how much they are willing to pay for it. Anet cannot control this.

munkiman.3068:

This is not how it was explained to me as a proper process for a savvy flipper.

Typically, a fairly quick analysis is taken of the market to gauge the lowest buy price that would be filled in a certain amount of time and also the highest sell price he can move it for. Knowing the volume in front of the lowest buys, he places his order and in a matter of a few minutes all the other short undercuts of low volume move out. These were typically players that decided to place 5 to 20 items bids that were doing the higher bids, we’ll call them average but informed enough to know better players. These small orders move out quickly to get the the flippers orders, filling them while still getting out bid here and there. This process also happens on the sale side as well, as they established their top sell price.

The market in general is a buyer beware market. It’s not regulated really beyond that of the people profiting well from it and the much larger player base buying and selling almost at random as the amass items.

I’ve seen basically useless (common items) go for 10x’s their worth since there were only like 3 of them. There are suckers born every minute, type of mentality that help drive that. Not that doesn’t happen in certain real world markets, but there are at least some buyer protections in place to keep people in line.

Just to give you a general idea, how much risk and bound up capital flipping and playing the tp actually involves.

Over 80% of my 541 listings right now are older than 3 weeks.
Value listed on this page: ~168g
If I would sell everything on this page to the highest bid, i get 50g and thats only, if there are as much bids at that value as i have items.
So I am basically waiting for the value to increase by 230%.
For those who want to make as much profit as me on the TP, i can give you a very simple tip:
From now on, when you sell your loot on the TP, take the lowest listing and multiply it by 2.3. List your item at that value and wait until it sells. It doesnt sell after 3 weeks? Well, just wait a little longer.
Dont want to take the risk to wait that long?
Sell to the highest bidder.

Essence Snow.3194:

I’m not arguing that they are bad. I just think the allowance they are given is out of balance with the rest of the game, which results in disparity.

I agree … just the entry cost of 5% to simply have the opportunity to lose your money on the TP is too high.

tolunart.2095:

Essence Snow.3194:

I’m not arguing that they are bad. I just think the allowance they are given is out of balance with the rest of the game, which results in disparity.

They are not given anything. The market works according to players’ desire for instant gratification. You cannot remove the potential for instant gratification without making the experience worse for the majority of players. The TP “barons” will adapt while the average player suffers.

In terms as simple as I can think of:

The PvE and PvP games are under the control of Anet. They set how much damage you can do, what skills you have, and what loot drops. Players can control what parts of the game they participate in.

The TP is under the control of the players. They decide what they want and how much they are willing to pay for it. Anet cannot control this.

By the allowance they/we are given I was referring to unbounded potential. It is the only aspect of the game where it is allowed/given.

Essence Snow.3194:

tolunart.2095:

Essence Snow.3194:

I’m not arguing that they are bad. I just think the allowance they are given is out of balance with the rest of the game, which results in disparity.

They are not given anything. The market works according to players’ desire for instant gratification. You cannot remove the potential for instant gratification without making the experience worse for the majority of players. The TP “barons” will adapt while the average player suffers.

In terms as simple as I can think of:

The PvE and PvP games are under the control of Anet. They set how much damage you can do, what skills you have, and what loot drops. Players can control what parts of the game they participate in.

The TP is under the control of the players. They decide what they want and how much they are willing to pay for it. Anet cannot control this.

By the allowance they/we are given I was referring to unbounded potential. It is the only aspect of the game where it is allowed/given.

This is intentional, it is the nature of the marketplace that players determine for themselves what they are willing to pay for an item. There is nothing wrong with this, your only argument is that you don’t like it. So be it.

As there is no problem to solve, no solution is necessary. Thanx for clearing that up.

It creates a wealth gap. That is a byproduct of it.

Essence Snow.3194:

It creates a wealth gap. That is a byproduct of it.

No. Show me, I’m done taking anything you say seriously.

You never answered JS because you cannot. There is no “wealth gap” created by the TP, it is a function of the impatience of players who want money/items right now instead of waiting for them at the best prices they can get for them. There is nothing Anet can do about this.

Essence Snow.3194:

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

John Smith.4610:

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

It’s common sense. If you refuse to see it that’s not my problem.

I’m 100% sure there is a wealth gap. It’s the result of one method being exponential and the rest being linear. It’s not an assumption. It is reality.

Note that JS never said there wasn’t. There is a reason why they would not want to reveal such. He asked for a lot of busy work for something that he has the answer to.

I’m sorry the truth hurts.

Wanze.8410:

4) I dont think much changed with orr temples

Fyi, whilst nothing has changed with the fights and I’d suppose how frequently they’d be up, there’s actually no way to tell when a temple fight is up unless you camp on a map. So a lot less people will be doing the temple events now. I was lucky and saw one today when I’d normally get to do all but Balthazar.

While people were waiting for the pre event to finish for 12-15 minutes, i got 200 kills, including 2 rares and an exotic.

That’s because people don’t know a lot of the pre events, especially the more lengthy ones like the Destroyer and Ulgoth.

Essence Snow.3194:

It creates a wealth gap. That is a byproduct of it.

The wealth gap is created because TP players can make more money than you can. Now the reason why is a different story. Is it because you’re unable to do what they do, or is it that you don’t know how?

If you knew how to do make money, and choose not to, then the wealth gap is your own fault. Let me give you a real world analogy of this thread:

It’s like saying “I could make $100,000 a year by getting my Engineering degree, but I don’t want to go to college.” Then as you work for McDonald’s, you say “Those rich people make too much money. We should tax them more.”

Moral of the story – Everyone has the potential to do well in this game. If you choose not to make the efforts, don’t expect to reap the rewards.

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s common sense. If you refuse to see it that’s not my problem.

I’m 100% sure there is a wealth gap. It’s the result of one method being exponential and the rest being linear. It’s not an assumption. It is reality.

Note that JS never said there wasn’t. There is a reason why they would not want to reveal such. He asked for a lot of busy work for something that he has the answer to.

I’m sorry the truth hurts.

John Smith.4610:

It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.

P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

And none of that says " there is no wealth gap". So you point is?

Essence Snow.3194:

And none of that says " there is no wealth gap". So you point is?

You do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about or why anyone should do anything about it. You have done nothing but avoid JS’s request:

Essence Snow.3194:

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

John Smith.4610:

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

tolunart.2095:

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s common sense. If you refuse to see it that’s not my problem.

I’m 100% sure there is a wealth gap. It’s the result of one method being exponential and the rest being linear. It’s not an assumption. It is reality.

Note that JS never said there wasn’t. There is a reason why they would not want to reveal such. He asked for a lot of busy work for something that he has the answer to.

I’m sorry the truth hurts.

John Smith.4610:

It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.

P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

At this point, we’ve already determined that the complainers have no case. This thread turned into throwing spaghetti at the wall, and seeing what sticks.

Essence Snow.3194:

And none of that says " there is no wealth gap". So you point is?

OK, I admit there is a wealth gap.
Your next point is?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

At this point, we’ve already determined that the complainers have no case. This thread turned into throwing spaghetti at the wall, and seeing what sticks.

True, sometimes I am too stubborn to know when to quit. I’ll let Essence have the last word on the matter if he wishes to reply, and bow out of the discussion. No one has said anything new in fifteen pages anyway.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

At this point, we’ve already determined that the complainers have no case. This thread turned into throwing spaghetti at the wall, and seeing what sticks.

That, of course, depends ENTIRELY how rich the spaghetti are in egg content.

You can quote that all day long but it wont be improving your position.

Like I mentioned b4 I am not going to do a whole write up on something that he already has information on. That’s busy work that serves no purpose but to amuse him, which I’m not gullible enough to do. It’s asking someone to run through hoops when there’s no need for it.

If he releases wealth distribution data I’ll be more than happy to oblige.

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

And none of that says " there is no wealth gap". So you point is?

OK, I admit there is a wealth gap.
Your next point is?

It is disadvantageous for a mmorpg.

Wanze.8410:

Just to give you a general idea, how much risk and bound up capital flipping and playing the tp actually involves.

Over 80% of my 541 listings right now are older than 3 weeks.
Value listed on this page: ~168g
If I would sell everything on this page to the highest bid, i get 50g and thats only, if there are as much bids at that value as i have items.
So I am basically waiting for the value to increase by 230%.
For those who want to make as much profit as me on the TP, i can give you a very simple tip:
From now on, when you sell your loot on the TP, take the lowest listing and multiply it by 2.3. List your item at that value and wait until it sells. It doesnt sell after 3 weeks? Well, just wait a little longer.
Dont want to take the risk to wait that long?
Sell to the highest bidder.

I wish i still had example of the capitol investments these guys make. When you’re willing to risk 100s of gold to exchange profit, while still maintaining a fairly large profit gap, on successes, whats a few hundred gold lost to speculation? Not much.

Look i get it, i’ve heard plenty of stories. Poorly analyzed markets will incur losses, sure, but avid, for profit traders, actually have a pretty nice cushion. Just showing this, your providing proof you can afford to take risks, those risk inflate the market, even if only in a short window. I guess my thought is can we agree that the market is buyer beware and that the impact of temporary inflation hurts the “average player” that wants a quick buy? I think what you have dangling out there pretty much exceeds average player, simply playing the game that provides in stock a decent profit. Would that be a fair assessment? I know far more people hovering around 30-60g, you’re talking about dangling 3-almost 4x’s that much in speculation. I never said speculation should be impacted, you roll the dice and take your chances. As a matter of fact, i would like flipping to be a more speculative process than it is.

It’s fine if you don’t agree that you are making more money an hour than the average farmer or your just stashing cash, which i think is actually worse, since it’s not going back into the market, nothing can be done about that. Same can be said of the investor (or flipper) that quits playing leaving 1000’s of gold in his bank. I’m saying the market is open to people willing to work around self regulation. That they prey on the poor, the ones that want it now. I totally understand it, yet i’m saying market regulations are in place in real world markets to prevent that, or at least make those that try, accountable (arguably the bigger impact the less hand-slaps they get, but that’s a political discussion).

The car market actually offers incentives for moving cars at close to msrp over those that gouge buyers 10-20% beyond msrp. They also have to take into account economic issues based on region (ie higher wage rates and rent costs). While i totally think the TP functions on it’s basic merits, i still feel like people that don’t follow the market get screwed, and in most consumer markets we have at least some checks and balances. The only checks we have here is that buyers are willing to get gouged for a buy it now price. But, a desperate car buyer will take a 20% interest loan just to buy a car that they need right now. Obviously not a good example, since loans don’t come into play here. Still food for though on the average consumer.

It’s funny too since you don’t actually address the occasion where a player simply gets reamed based on perceived rarity. Do you think that’s a far practice?

I guess i’m on the side of the consumer and you’re on the side of the “makers”. While this could turn into a political debate, in this fairly simplified market of supply and demand (along with controlled rarity), we really can’t go that route.

That’s how science is done when you don’t already have the information. If you have the information the prep work is mostly pointless.

Why won’t you release the data like you did early on?

Edit: I’ll explain why it’s pointless.

If you have an engine that’s knocking, it runs ok but you want to see what the knocking is, and you know that one of the timing belts is off. You don’t bother with laying out a proposed method for proving one of the timing belts is off. Why? Because you already know it is.

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

You can quote that all day long but it wont be improving your position.

Like I mentioned b4 I am not going to do a whole write up on something that he already has information on. That’s busy work that serves no purpose but to amuse him, which I’m not gullible enough to do. It’s asking someone to run through hoops when there’s no need for it.

If he releases wealth distribution data I’ll be more than happy to oblige.

I fail to see how requesting that you lay out your proposed method for proving there is a problem is “busy work”. This is how science is done, create a hypothesis, create a test method, carry out a test. I’m sorry if this sounds pedantic.

I’m actually curious now. I’ve laid out a few theories on both why i think having wealth and income disparity is an issue and i’ve also explained in fairly enough detail how flippers impact the market. Combing over the data really isn’t enough. It’s like looking at a kill chart in a war, saying the opposition has more deaths, while not taking into account the loss impact of “our” side. This especially true when giving your life for X, Y or Z means more than living. It’s irrational at best. That is actually the most basic way i can talk analysis and impact. Probably not the best analogy, but it invokes an emotional response anyway.

Sorry, side tangent, but emotion is a very hard measure of success that comes into play, especially in an mmo market where wealth has a pretty sizable emotional impact. I’m curious, if you think the concept of people in the market feel impacted emotionally, being treated for market gains as “suckers” feel good about that? Hey JS, you are a sucker, you just paid 3x more than an item is worth to the rest of the population? And you know why? there are no checks and balances to stop me from gouging you!! I certainly can tell you i’ve often heard " i just got gouged, cause i bought at x ridiculous price and now it’s worth 20-30-40% less" Do you not think our market is a buyer beware type market?

I’m not interested in goading you into a response, on a very personal level, i don’t care. I pay my cash to get gems to trade for gold and go on about my day, doing what i do. I guess my counter activity would be giving that away, mostly since i think the market is jacked and the rest of my ideal is to promote server unity. It’s quite satisfying to see my server benefit from not just mine, but others generosity. Just a side note from my personal perspective.

I know you’re a busy guy and i respect that. I also actually don’t need marketing data to see what i already see from a (maybe? rational) player perspective. While the market suited fine up to now, you have to know there will eventually come a time when savvy market players are going to “exploit” the lack of regulation in the market. And that can’t possible be good for the market, even without data to back it up.

munkiman.3068:

I know you’re a busy guy and i respect that. I also actually don’t need marketing data to see what i already see from a (maybe? rational) player perspective. While the market suited fine up to now, you have to know there will eventually come a time when savvy market players are going to “exploit” the lack of regulation in the market. And that can’t possible be good for the market, even without data to back it up.

There have already been situations where action was taken to solve problems. The ecto salvage bug, crystalline dust shortages, silk oversupply… when there is a problem, Anet will act to solve the problem.

The thing is, there is no problem here. After repeated requests to demonstrate that there is in fact a problem, the best anyone can come up with is “I think there may be a problem someday in the future.”

Okay, when there is a problem, Anet will act to solve the problem. Acting now to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, when no one can explain what the problem is or what needs to be done to solve it, is unnecessary and potentially harmful to the players you want to protect.

It’s like refusing to leave your house because you could get hit by lightning. Staying in your house will prevent you from being hit by lightning, certainly, but the solution causes more harm than it prevents.

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

And none of that says " there is no wealth gap". So you point is?

OK, I admit there is a wealth gap.
Your next point is?

It is disadvantageous for a mmorpg.

It’s disadvantageous for anything … what’s the point? I’m not dying in the street because someone is richer than me … I don’t ‘do without’ in an MMORPG because people have more gold than I do. Even if it’s negative, being disadvantaged (perceived or real) in an MMO is not a reason to do anything different here. You need to take the next step and provide a hypothesis relating a distribution of wealth to the degradation of gaming experience; enough to warrant even a cursive investigation. No one has done that.

The point is to make GW2 a better game. I can understand that some might not care about making it better. I just happen to not be one of those ppl.

I cannot think of any time where a wealth gap that ever increases is a good thing, They have always turned out to be detrimental.

The only way I can see that it wouldn’t matter is if the games life cycle is over b4 it becomes too much of an issue. If this is considered and has been deemed acceptable, I understand that.

You haven’t provided any reasonable explanation for how wealth distribution affects how good the game is so claiming your purpose for wanting to screw with how people make money on the TP for the health of the game is significantly lacking in substance.

Essence Snow.3194:

I cannot think of any time where a wealth gap that ever increases is a good thing, They have always turned out to be detrimental.

Just because you can’t think of a time where wealth distribution is a good thing doesn’t mean it’s not. JS has provided alot of explanations (sensible ones) where that distribution is critical to the health of the economy of the game. You can only provide anecdotes.

Essence Snow.3194:

The only way I can see that it wouldn’t matter is if the games life cycle is over b4 it becomes too much of an issue

This is a very likely reality because the gold the richest player has is not enough to influence the markets if they were to release it to the market by using it. Even if they did, Anet has levers they can pull to ease these sorts of things.

tolunart.2095:

munkiman.3068:

I know you’re a busy guy and i respect that. I also actually don’t need marketing data to see what i already see from a (maybe? rational) player perspective. While the market suited fine up to now, you have to know there will eventually come a time when savvy market players are going to “exploit” the lack of regulation in the market. And that can’t possible be good for the market, even without data to back it up.

There have already been situations where action was taken to solve problems. The ecto salvage bug, crystalline dust shortages, silk oversupply… when there is a problem, Anet will act to solve the problem.

The thing is, there is no problem here. After repeated requests to demonstrate that there is in fact a problem, the best anyone can come up with is “I think there may be a problem someday in the future.”

Okay, when there is a problem, Anet will act to solve the problem. Acting now to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, when no one can explain what the problem is or what needs to be done to solve it, is unnecessary and potentially harmful to the players you want to protect.

It’s like refusing to leave your house because you could get hit by lightning. Staying in your house will prevent you from being hit by lightning, certainly, but the solution causes more harm than it prevents.

I completely agree. I think the current market looks extremely different in this patch than in previous ones. Unfortunately the profiteers will still “win” the finance game, that is fine in and of itself, but in an unregulated market, not so much. There is more than the data to back up claims, and i personally don’t expect JS to expend his time proving otherwise with numbers, its actually preposterous to expect that, but there are a lot of post here to absorb.

I get you are a take an authority figure at his word type of perso .I am not, this is not a stab at you, im just trying to sort out the goals of the tp versus the gains expected. I know we had a bit of clashes in the past, i’m really not trying to single anyone out. Meaning, i realize the tp has evolved. whether its beyond JS expectation, i have no idea. But “working as intended”, is not a sub answer anymore.

Obtena.7952:

You haven’t provided any reasonable explanation for how wealth distribution affects how good the game is so claiming your purpose for wanting to screw with how people make money on the TP for the health of the game is significantly lacking in substance.

Essence Snow.3194:

I cannot think of any time where a wealth gap that ever increases is a good thing, They have always turned out to be detrimental.

Just because you can’t think of a time where wealth distribution is a good thing doesn’t mean it’s not. JS has provided alot of explanations (sensible ones) where that distribution is critical to the health of the economy of the game. You can only provide anecdotes.

read the posts, there are plenty of talks about that very thing. Please don’t come her claiming there are not.

munkiman.3068:

I wish i still had example of the capitol investments these guys make. When you’re willing to risk 100s of gold to exchange profit, while still maintaining a fairly large profit gap, on successes, whats a few hundred gold lost to speculation? Not much.

snipped for length, anger and the car markets

Aye, Robin Hood.

I read your post until you started talking about the car market and immediately stopped reading because i wasnt sure if you were talking about mounts. It sounds like you had a bad day, I am sorry to hear that.

Imagine a trading post that has no flippers, no speculators, just people that buy what they need, anything they buy on the tp cant be sold anymore. Every item that would have a higher supply than demand for use, would have no buy orders. People would sell alot of items to the vendor because nobody on the tp wants to buy it and it would eventually clog your storage. By selling to the vendor, you destroy that item and take it out of the economy, its gone forever. This results to less supply in the game in general. If an item gets in demand, there is less supply left in the game and prices might spike harder than with flippers and will take way more time to get back into equilibrium than with speculators in the game.

Storing items that otherwise would have been destroyed is another one of the many benefits flippers and speculators have.
The flipper gives the player more gold for his item than the vendor, so the player gets a good deal for the time being. If he sells to the vendor, he inflates gold in game because new gold is created and dimishes supply. If he sells to the flipper, he deflates gold in game because of the tax but keeps supply steady, while getting more gold at the same time.
The flipper is willing to pay more gold right now than the vendor to keep the item in the supply chain by storing it on the trading post.
In order to do that he has to pay more gold than the vendor. So he basically distributes his wealth to the player while avoiding new gold to be created and destroying gold at the same time. Now when the item goes into demand out of a sudden and the player wants it back, there is actually more supply on the trading post because of the flipper, which prevents the price to rise too fast.
And dont forget, at this point of time, the player has profited more than the flipper from the deal becausee he ended up with more gold than the flipper.
So the player actually profits from the flippers action because the extra supply on the tp slows down the process of the item simply running out turning from very expensive into unavailable, unless you get them yourself.
The speculator does the same, he gives the player more gold than the vendor initially, but stores the item in his personal storage, avoiding the 5% listing fee, while being flexible with their sell price. But they have limited storage compared to the tp and esentially, live storage costs gold.
When the items gets into demand, the speculator basically works like a item faucet. They make prices snap faster into equilibrium than farmers can do and ease the gap between the initial price spike and the point that farmers can keep up with demand.

The economy of GW2 is massive and its not because of the trading post its because of the player base. The TP only acts like a tool to faciliate supply and demand. The vast majority of supply is stored in peoples storage of all sorts, not the tp.
Without flippers and speculators, that would not be the case because all items that had no use for a player in the past, would have been destroyed.

I think you misunderstood the value that tp players actually add to the economy.

munkiman.3068:

Obtena.7952:

You haven’t provided any reasonable explanation for how wealth distribution affects how good the game is so claiming your purpose for wanting to screw with how people make money on the TP for the health of the game is significantly lacking in substance.

Essence Snow.3194:

I cannot think of any time where a wealth gap that ever increases is a good thing, They have always turned out to be detrimental.

Just because you can’t think of a time where wealth distribution is a good thing doesn’t mean it’s not. JS has provided alot of explanations (sensible ones) where that distribution is critical to the health of the economy of the game. You can only provide anecdotes.

read the posts, there are plenty of talks about that very thing. Please don’t come her claiming there are not.

Sure you talk about it anecdotally; you don’t actually provide anything that gives anyone cause to believe it, especially the guy that’s asking you to do so … If JS is indicating this is a waste of his time, you obviously haven’t done this well enough.

munkiman.3068:

I get you are a take an authority figure at his word type of perso .I am not, this is not a stab at you, im just trying to sort out the goals of the tp versus the gains expected. I know we had a bit of clashes in the past, i’m really not trying to single anyone out. Meaning, i realize the tp has evolved. whether its beyond JS expectation, i have no idea. But “working as intended”, is not a sub answer anymore.

I don’t take it personally, and I don’t mean anything personal. I’m talking about the value of the ideas, not the person.

I do question things, and try to learn the answers wherever I can, but I try not to jump to conclusions. I don’t know much about financial markets beyond the basics of a 401k account – investments like savings accounts have little risk but are barely ahead of inflation meaning your money accumulates but buying power stays the same, and stocks have much more risk but over time tend to provide returns that are much higher than inflation, meaning that over time your buying power can double, triple, or more.

I can apply this understanding to the game, running the dungeons or champ train provides a small, steady income with little risk while playing the TP can provide huge rewards or result in throwing away a lot of gold.

I just don’t see it as a problem. Players have a choice as to how to spend their time and how much risk to accept, no one is prevented from playing the TP. All you have to do is run the champ train, keep an eye on the boss timers, run a few dungeons, and sell the items you get on the TP, then reinvest the money.

Imagine two brothers each inherited $10,000 from their rich uncle. One brother put his money into a savings account at 6% interest and the other spent it on stock from a hot company’s IPO. A month later the second brother sells his stock and ends up with a million dollars, while the first brother has… just over $10,000. Neither did anything wrong, they just made different choices that lead to different results. If the stock crashed the second brother could have been left with $1,000 worth of stock while the first brother still had his $10,000. It just depends on what level of risk you are comfortable with.

So when JS says he sees no evidence of a problem, I tend to believe him. It fits with what I understand about the situation.

Fenrir.3609:

Are you trying to ascertain how much can be made via pve in order to start to identify the potential disparity?

More or less. The idea is to get an idea of what can be earned with limited time to play through each activity. It’s what I was working on, but I then stopped, and then before I could get back into it, the Feature Pack happened and changed a good deal. I have to look at the World Boss schedule and figure those things out, among others.

Wanze.8410:

I beg to differ, at least with items. People have been so used to running champ trains and showing up for world bosses/temples in the last minute because they think the phat lootz are in champ bags/chests that they forgot how fast your inventory and wallet fills up with high frequenzy mob kills.

See, people keep saying this, but in my experience, even doing the mob frenzy, I don’t see any items, and if I do, they’re one or two blues and greens at best, and the rest of the stuff I get is useless trophy filler. The only times I ever got anything decent was -because- the champ trains were a thing.

John Smith.4610:

I fail to see how requesting that you lay out your proposed method for proving there is a problem is “busy work”. This is how science is done, create a hypothesis, create a test method, carry out a test. I’m sorry if this sounds pedantic.

Actually, in an age past the Fourth Paradigm and right in the mid of Big Data, this also sounds a little bit old-fashioned.

Not saying that you are wrong, though.

~MRA

Wanze.8410:

Ohoni.6057:

Thanks for your concern about potential profit margins on the TP. These profits are not as easily defined as a reward from other activities. This has several reasons.

The points you made following this are all obvious and well understood, yet profits from the TP are still, by any reasonable definition, “reward,” and it’s still the responsibility of ANet to attempt to account for it, even which this may prove difficult. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing.

Anet stated several times that high profit margins on the TP dont affect your gameplay in any negative way. Granted you might feel envy towards the guy next to you in his gem store skinned ascended armor, his Twilight, Bolt and Ghastly Shield, Monocle and Jetpack that has a Mini Karka standing next to him, while he pops his permanent merchant to sell his junk, his permanent TP express to pick up another 1000g of profit, his bank express to get another mf booster and his mystic forge conduit to forge his rares into yet another precursor before using his hairstyle contract to celebrate his awesomeness with a new hairdo. Because NONE of this is required for you to enjoy any core game content that you deem fun.
If something is hard to do, it should be worth doing. Why should Anet waste Dev time on something that has no positive impact on the game overall?

they effect your gameplay in a very simple way.

A lot of the games goals are intertwined with money
1 method of making money has way greater potential for earning
people feel like they have to play that way.

And this method of playing goes against the way in which the game was marketed and the ways people want to play.

What this whole debate really comes down to is simple. Whether people who are rich effect it or not isnt that important;

many players who dont play the TP feel like they cant get ahead in the game or achieve their goals in a reasonable time frame.

non of you highly effecient grinders or TP merchants can understand this, because you earn way more per hour than they do, doing things they dont enjoy.

a good grinder/farmer probably makes some where from 3-8 times as much as they do per hour.
For him, getting new bank slots, or the latest skin, or a precursor, or charged lodestones for infinite light requires 1/3 to 1/8th the commitment.

A good tp player probably makes somewhere from 5 to 50 times the money as they do per hour.
For him getting endgame items feels easy breezy and reinforces his chosen playstyle.

Point is, getting what you want sucks for non money focused players. Even if you want to claim that items whose supply is in the upper 10% isnt marketed to the upper 20% of income earners (which i doubt) the fact remains that the upper 20% satisfaction with the system will be more and more skewed as the difference in earning potential grows.

So what they probably need to do is seek to reduce the opportunity costs of a lot of these items and make them more attainable, They also need to make it so that one playstyle isnt so much better at achieving endgame goals, especially when that playstyle is not the thing the game was marketed for.

The best way to do this without harming TP players that much is to introduce reward systems that are far more effecient to earn through play. Ways in which this may have been executed in the past, are like in SAB. where you can earn account bound items for certain activities, and by much lower chance, with much more work earn sellable versions.
Essentially people bringing sellable versions to market, should only be doing it to market to the people who dont want to do the activity.

This would allow TP/gold people to focus on battling each other, and allow items/reward designers to focus on rewarding gameplay items/progress rather than what something needs to require based on the market.

Regular players can make reasonable progress towards goals through playing the game, in amounts that make sense, and TP battling people can still play the TP game and get super rich without making the average player feel like they have no hope of achieving success, unless they become them.

Gene Archer.8560:

More or less. The idea is to get an idea of what can be earned with limited time to play through each activity. It’s what I was working on, but I then stopped, and then before I could get back into it, the Feature Pack happened and changed a good deal. I have to look at the World Boss schedule and figure those things out, among others.

If you are looking for maximum potential earnings via pve (which I assume you are) then you would be wasting your time looking at world bosses and/or champ trains as they have never been “optimal” in terms of returns.

Selling dungeons.
Speed running dungeons.
T6 orientated farming.

Are the top earners that I am aware of and could all return more than trains and world bosses (although ofc I am not stating that there are not other methods that are better, I am just not aware of them).

Prior to the patch from open world pve (ignoring dungeons for now) you could pull in 8-12G+ per hour, with little effort, zero risk and zero investment capital needed (outside of having a level 80).

Now, since the feature patch, I will say I have noticed a decrease in returns, though given the fact that my sample size since the patch is tiny, that could be (and more than likely is) down to just pure bad luck/RNG.

Nuance.4872:

So there is information showing a wealth gap? But it wouldn’t be worthwhile releasing it or acting on it,

Right now, information showing a wealth gap is purely a curiosity. If someone was to present an argument that:
A. Wealth Gaps cause problems in video games
B. The problems are [insert list of problems]
C. Those problems can be found by looking at [insert list of evidence]
D. Wealth Gaps are caused by [insert list of causes]
E. Because Wealth Gaps are caused by [insert list of causes] and cause [insert list of problems], we need to know about [insert list of evidence] so that we can determine if Wealth Gaps need to be addressed.

This is what John Smith has been asking for.

MRA.4758:

John Smith.4610:

I fail to see how requesting that you lay out your proposed method for proving there is a problem is “busy work”. This is how science is done, create a hypothesis, create a test method, carry out a test. I’m sorry if this sounds pedantic.

Actually, in an age past the Fourth Paradigm and right in the mid of Big Data, this also sounds a little bit old-fashioned.

Not saying that you are wrong, though.

~MRA

Big data doesn’t supersede the scientific method though.

brittitude.1983:

Big data doesn’t supersede the scientific method though.

No… but who pays for your grant funding does!
:p

I finally had time to test a few hypothesis last night, something i wanted to do 20 pages ago. While i did see some minor evidence that “price spiking” was taking place in a few markets, i cannot conclude anything definitive (mostly since i don’t have the tools). While i still firmly believe players are earning profit faster on the TP than most other methods, simply based on watching a few do it, i now feel it’s not as rampant as i initially thought, which is good, i learned some new things!

I do also feel that there should be some regulation in place outside of pure bulk movement of the market. But i digress, as i can’t really solve that, nor can i pin point a problem in the markets current state. Thank you all for the stimulating discussion

Essence Snow.3194:

The point is to make GW2 a better game. I can understand that some might not care about making it better. I just happen to not be one of those ppl.

I cannot think of any time where a wealth gap that ever increases is a good thing, They have always turned out to be detrimental.

The only way I can see that it wouldn’t matter is if the games life cycle is over b4 it becomes too much of an issue. If this is considered and has been deemed acceptable, I understand that.

I think the dilemma here is that there are two sides to it.

One is the logical theoretical side that is supported by internal metrics and can as such be proven to be functioning within certain parameters, even be declared as successes on many levels.

The other would be the emotional side which always be dismissed as anecdotal evidence because no one is measuring it (e.g. surveys, exit interviews), or to phrase this better – measuring this would need additional steps and due to the nature of emotions (e.g. ragequitters) are not as accurate.

I would compare this in essence to an often ongoing PvP debate of how classes are overpowered etc and life is unfair, whereas metrics show not only theoretical potential but actual damage and more done in the gazillion fights going on around the clock.

Hopping on that train of thought there should be, exactly similar to the PvP environment, more information flowing in a sense of a dialogue. But since the TP is not “promoted” the same way as competitive PvP is there will most likely be no budget for additional manpower in that department just to appease potential unhappy customers that can only be measured by some forum posts.

munkiman.3068:

I finally had time to test a few hypothesis last night, something i wanted to do 20 pages ago. While i did see some minor evidence that “price spiking” was taking place in a few markets, i cannot conclude anything definitive (mostly since i don’t have the tools). While i still firmly believe players are earning profit faster on the TP than most other methods, simply based on watching a few do it, i now feel it’s not as rampant as i initially thought, which is good, i learned some new things!

I do also feel that there should be some regulation in place outside of pure bulk movement of the market. But i digress, as i can’t really solve that, nor can i pin point a problem in the markets current state. Thank you all for the stimulating discussion

Just wanted to point something out. If you’re only looking at a few items over the course of last nite, that doesn’t show anything more than the velocity of the markets. For instance, Linen scraps. Prices for these were jumping roughly 10% between low and high sell prices. A lot sold at both ends. So the spikes were most likely people just paying what they felt it was worth at that moment, based on their needs for the item (either for crafting of flipping).

As a segue into a similar topic, I can convert 5 million Karma into Linen and sell it for huge money. Discuss!

John Smith.4610:

I actually do have ways of measuring the emotional side, but the forums are only one variable and have to be compared to other sources of data. I would definitely not use surveys or exit interviews as they are massively biased data sources and I personally am not a fan of either in this setting.

Interesting. Are you able to elaborate or give a general example of how this works? How accurate would you deem that way of measuring? I’m sure there are ways to establish patterns and cross referencing them (in-game TP browsing perhaps?) but surely this data cannot be complete, although I assume it will average out over the masses.

Rouven.7409:

John Smith.4610:

I actually do have ways of measuring the emotional side, but the forums are only one variable and have to be compared to other sources of data. I would definitely not use surveys or exit interviews as they are massively biased data sources and I personally am not a fan of either in this setting.

Interesting. Are you able to elaborate or give a general example of how this works? How accurate would you deem that way of measuring? I’m sure there are ways to establish patterns and cross referencing them (in-game TP browsing perhaps?) but surely this data cannot be complete, although I assume it will average out over the masses.

At the end of his shift he simply calculates, how much rare weapons have been thrown into the mystic forge. Destroying rare weapons generates players tears. The more rares are thrown in, the more tears. Thats how you accurately measure the emotional side.

Wanze.8410:

Rouven.7409:

John Smith.4610:

I actually do have ways of measuring the emotional side, but the forums are only one variable and have to be compared to other sources of data. I would definitely not use surveys or exit interviews as they are massively biased data sources and I personally am not a fan of either in this setting.

Interesting. Are you able to elaborate or give a general example of how this works? How accurate would you deem that way of measuring? I’m sure there are ways to establish patterns and cross referencing them (in-game TP browsing perhaps?) but surely this data cannot be complete, although I assume it will average out over the masses.

At the end of his shift he simply calculates, how much rare weapons have been thrown into the mystic forge. Destroying rare weapons generates players tears. The more rares are thrown in, the more tears. Thats how you accurately measure the emotional side.

But how do you differentiate between the tears of failed forging, and the tears of a successful Precursor forge drop? In order for your results to be scientifically accurate, you need to calculate this difference into your end results, or else you risk contaminating your entire sample.

John Smith.4610:

Tears are the source of my evil powers, but not a source of data…………yet.

Haha, all right thanks.