In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Precursors selling for 65 Gold on TP!
That’s a nice story … that doesn’t change the fact that Anet isn’t going to purposefully introduce anarchy into the market to appease players when they dedicate specific and valued resources to ensure destabilizing effects on the market are avoided and minimized.
. . . until they do.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
That’s a nice story … that doesn’t change the fact that Anet isn’t going to purposefully introduce anarchy into the market to appease players when they dedicate specific and valued resources to ensure destabilizing effects on the market are avoided and minimized.
. . . until they do.
Person A: It’s not like pigs are going to grow wings and fly.
Person B: . . . until they do.
Person A: Ebola isn’t going to mutate and turn everyone into zombies.
Person B: . . . until it does.
Person A: The lottery is not a good investment as you are very likely to not win.
Person B: . . . unless you do.
That’s essentially what your comment is coming off as. I trust you can see the trend/similarities between my examples and how your comment came off as.
Yeah it’s like that hell freezes over thing … physically, there is actually a non-zero chance it could happen but I don’t think anyone is betting on it.
Anet could decide that they no longer value stability in the market and implement precursors/legendaries for the masses. Based on what they say, how the game operates and some other factors, it’s just as likely as Skating on the Hades. It’s just obtuse to make an argument for a change with the premise that a controlling body will completely go against their values to make that change. It’s simply nonsense.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
That’s essentially what your comment is coming off as. I trust you can see the trend/similarities between my examples and how your comment came off as.
Of course, because you like to mock things that you’df rather not be true, but the fact remains that they’ve made similar moves in the past, and likely will in the future, it’s not nearly as preposterous as you seem to wish it were. Hell, maybe at some point they’ll even go so far as making dyes account bound or adding an entirely new tier of armors and weapons above exotic.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
That’s essentially what your comment is coming off as. I trust you can see the trend/similarities between my examples and how your comment came off as.
Of course, because you like to mock things that you’df rather not be true, but the fact remains that they’ve made similar moves in the past, and likely will in the future, it’s not nearly as preposterous as you seem to wish it were. Hell, maybe at some point they’ll even go so far as making dyes account bound or adding an entirely new tier of armors and weapons above exotic.
Ascended and the wardrobe changes are absolutely nowhere near the level of change that you want including the impact it would have. You can claim it’s similar but it’s very very far from that. My post was not to mock but show you how flawed that statement was.
That’s essentially what your comment is coming off as. I trust you can see the trend/similarities between my examples and how your comment came off as.
Of course, because you like to mock things that you’df rather not be true, but the fact remains that they’ve made similar moves in the past, and likely will in the future, it’s not nearly as preposterous as you seem to wish it were. Hell, maybe at some point they’ll even go so far as making dyes account bound or adding an entirely new tier of armors and weapons above exotic.
Ascended and the wardrobe changes are absolutely nowhere near the level of change that you want including the impact it would have. You can claim it’s similar but it’s very very far from that. My post was not to mock but show you how flawed that statement was.
ascended crafting totally altered the very nature of the market. it effected a great many prices, and created tons of demand, on a daily basis, im guessing more so than legendaries, which use substantially less basic materials, and much less of them are created.
Primary thing legendaries do is eat t5 mats.
anyhow, i guarantee you its only a matter of time before they do something else to alter the economy’s model. Its honestly not good that 1 thing is so dominant, thats one bonus i will admit to ascended, it created a lot of demand for many excess items, that is pursued by high level players.
They need some more diverse markets, so that precursors are less of a crutch, but honestly the best solution would probably be to change the loot system, but i dont see that happening.
That’s essentially what your comment is coming off as. I trust you can see the trend/similarities between my examples and how your comment came off as.
Of course, because you like to mock things that you’df rather not be true, but the fact remains that they’ve made similar moves in the past, and likely will in the future, it’s not nearly as preposterous as you seem to wish it were. Hell, maybe at some point they’ll even go so far as making dyes account bound or adding an entirely new tier of armors and weapons above exotic.
Ascended and the wardrobe changes are absolutely nowhere near the level of change that you want including the impact it would have. You can claim it’s similar but it’s very very far from that. My post was not to mock but show you how flawed that statement was.
ascended crafting totally altered the very nature of the market. it effected a great many prices, and created tons of demand, on a daily basis, im guessing more so than legendaries, which use substantially less basic materials, and much less of them are created.
Primary thing legendaries do is eat t5 mats.
anyhow, i guarantee you its only a matter of time before they do something else to alter the economy’s model. Its honestly not good that 1 thing is so dominant, thats one bonus i will admit to ascended, it created a lot of demand for many excess items, that is pursued by high level players.
They need some more diverse markets, so that precursors are less of a crutch, but honestly the best solution would probably be to change the loot system, but i dont see that happening.
It gave items that had little to no value some value. Hardly much of an impact compared to what dropping precursors prices to the level that he wants would do. They did not alter the very nature of the market.
What you, and everyone else that wants cheap precursors, fail to realize is that there are other components that go into making a legendary than just the precursor. If you make precursors around 250G (he has stated that he wants this and kitten the economy) then what do you think will happen to the prices of everything else used to make a legendary? Then go further and look at what the prices of everything else in the game that uses those components in one way or another.
Yeah… that’s the same as when ascended was introduced.
I’m not denying that they won’t do something to influence the economy. It happens every time they introduce a new item (usually a back item). However, those changes would be nowhere near as large as if you nerfed precursor prices. Again, I’m going off what he wants.
See below for some of his posts. Essentially if everyone wants cheap precursors then it must be so.
Not VERY low, but reasonable. The 50-250g range someplace, or work equivalent to that.
And yes, I don’t care about the impact. They should try to reduce the impact as much as they can manage, but if they can’t manage it to have zero impact, then so be it. The economy serves the players, not the other way around.
No. If it satisfies most players, then it’s a win. The economy does not exist for itself, it only exists to satisfy most players. If the market is failing at that, then it deserves to die. If both can be saved, then all the better, but we can’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.
It gave items that had little to no value some value. Hardly much of an impact compared to what dropping precursors prices to the level that he wants would do. They did not alter the very nature of the market.
What you, and everyone else that wants cheap precursors, fail to realize is that there are other components that go into making a legendary than just the precursor. If you make precursors around 250G (he has stated that he wants this and kitten the economy) then what do you think will happen to the prices of everything else used to make a legendary? Then go further and look at what the prices of everything else in the game that uses those components in one way or another.
Look, if you’re going to pretend to be engaging in this discussion in good faith then you have to remember that we’ve already addressed this point. it’s no longer an issue.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
To be fair, with you involved, it’s not really a discussion. You’re simply imagining scenarios not likely to happen for the reasons we’ve discussed. Your position is so far fetched based on the current values that Anet expresses and exhibits through their development of the game that it’s simply not worth considering anything you have to say beyond a purely hypothetical, academic discussion.
No one here is really mocking you but I think it is clear that it’s hard to respect what your saying because it’s so hypothetical. There is no value in discussing a scenario where Anet embraces anarchy for the markets and that then this would naturally allow everyone to somehow obtain cheap mats and precursors to make all the legendaries they feel entitled to own. Why? Because they DON’T embrace anarchy in the market. It’s like you don’t even play this game, which I seriously question more and more as I read your posts.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
It gave items that had little to no value some value. Hardly much of an impact compared to what dropping precursors prices to the level that he wants would do. They did not alter the very nature of the market.
What you, and everyone else that wants cheap precursors, fail to realize is that there are other components that go into making a legendary than just the precursor. If you make precursors around 250G (he has stated that he wants this and kitten the economy) then what do you think will happen to the prices of everything else used to make a legendary? Then go further and look at what the prices of everything else in the game that uses those components in one way or another.
Yeah… that’s the same as when ascended was introduced.
I’m not denying that they won’t do something to influence the economy. It happens every time they introduce a new item (usually a back item). However, those changes would be nowhere near as large as if you nerfed precursor prices. Again, I’m going off what he wants.
See below for some of his posts. Essentially if everyone wants cheap precursors then it must be so.
Not VERY low, but reasonable. The 50-250g range someplace, or work equivalent to that.
And yes, I don’t care about the impact. They should try to reduce the impact as much as they can manage, but if they can’t manage it to have zero impact, then so be it. The economy serves the players, not the other way around.
No. If it satisfies most players, then it’s a win. The economy does not exist for itself, it only exists to satisfy most players. If the market is failing at that, then it deserves to die. If both can be saved, then all the better, but we can’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.
it gave a much larger impact than you realize. I believe JS mentioned it at somepoint in passing, but you apparently dont believe me. As i said, i know very clearly that a decent amount of high traffic items basically have their main value tied to the production of precursors. However, just because production is tied to X, doesnt mean changes in the market would crash the entire market. It fully depends on how, and what is executed.
Also, if it is true that precursors drive the entire economy (which may be the case) thats a major flaw in the economy. It essentially means that many prices are set based upon something that only a very small portion of the population makes use of. It means they need other driving forces within the game.
As for you saying i want 250 gold precursors, i never said that. In fact im not really looking to put a direct price on precursors. More so, i would give methods of obtaining it that are based on finite amounts of effort (random is always potentially infinite). After this, the price for precursors would represent the effort/skill/knowledge whatevers value to produce. I would also make randomly obtained precursors in the field come from precursor boxes (that allow you to select precursors) Annd i would make precursors generated from putting random exotics in the forge instead give an account bound token that could be used with laurels and the precursor knock off exotic (like usoku needle) to create the precursor.
This would essentially normalize the value of all precursors. the cheap precursors would cease to exist, but the hyper expensive ones would begin to go down as well. The overall demand of precursors would not change, but the supply would be 100% player controlled.
By combining supply created 100% by choice, and creating a finite path (even if its time consuming/difficult) I think you will create a healtheir precursor market. Players will gladly give their money knowing what they are paying for, or do it themselves, and precursor markets will be more based on how the players value their time, rather than straight up gambling (though gambling will still be an option!)
it gave a much larger impact than you realize. I believe JS mentioned it at somepoint in passing, but you apparently dont believe me. As i said, i know very clearly that a decent amount of high traffic items basically have their main value tied to the production of precursors. However, just because production is tied to X, doesnt mean changes in the market would crash the entire market. It fully depends on how, and what is executed.
I was not referring to precursors but legendary weapons.
Ascended weapons. The core ingredients are ore and logs. Before ascended weapons, these items had relatively no value. People used them to level their crafts and maybe the random items here and there. There really was no other use for them. Ascended weapons gave those items a purpose and created value.
Ascended armor. The core ingredients being ore, leather, and cloth. Leather still has no real value other that the T4. On November 4th 2013, linen scraps were selling for about 80 copper. They had no real demand and were worth very little. Silk sold at vendor price.
Tier 5+ ore and logs did have some value initially. They were both used to forge precursors and tier 6 were used for exotic crafting. There wasn’t much else to be honest.
Ascended weapons/armors gave value to items that had relatively no value to begin with. Increasing precursors rates would cause an increase in demand for all of the items used for making legendary weapons causing those prices to rise. These items already have value and you’re now increasing it putting them more out of reach from players. One of the differences, as you can see, is the starting value before the change. They are not the same.
Also, if it is true that precursors drive the entire economy (which may be the case) thats a major flaw in the economy. It essentially means that many prices are set based upon something that only a very small portion of the population makes use of. It means they need other driving forces within the game.
It’s not the precursors that drive the economy but the drive for legendary weapons. A lot of items go into creating a legendary which creates a value for said items. Without legendary weapons, the demand for T6 materials would be almost nonexistent. It would still have uses but the supply would quickly surpass the demand for it.
Legendary weapons give value to the items used to create it. What do you think the economy would be like if these items had no value? Would champ farming be worth it? A lot of players would find it difficult to make gold as the only reliable source would be those methods which produce gold directly (e.g. dungeons).
As for you saying i want 250 gold precursors, i never said that. In fact im not really looking to put a direct price on precursors. More so, i would give methods of obtaining it that are based on finite amounts of effort (random is always potentially infinite). After this, the price for precursors would represent the effort/skill/knowledge whatevers value to produce. I would also make randomly obtained precursors in the field come from precursor boxes (that allow you to select precursors) Annd i would make precursors generated from putting random exotics in the forge instead give an account bound token that could be used with laurels and the precursor knock off exotic (like usoku needle) to create the precursor.
This would essentially normalize the value of all precursors. the cheap precursors would cease to exist, but the hyper expensive ones would begin to go down as well. The overall demand of precursors would not change, but the supply would be 100% player controlled.By combining supply created 100% by choice, and creating a finite path (even if its time consuming/difficult) I think you will create a healtheir precursor market. Players will gladly give their money knowing what they are paying for, or do it themselves, and precursor markets will be more based on how the players value their time, rather than straight up gambling (though gambling will still be an option!)
To be honest, I don’t know why I stated that you said that. It was late so either I, for some reason, lumped you with him or thought I was replying to him. In any case, disregard it being directed at you as it is clear that you don’t have that same mindset.
As far as you wanting a more reliable method that you can visibly see progress in, I agree with that. However great care does need to be taken when implementing such a system whatever it may be.
To be fair, with you involved, it’s not really a discussion. You’re simply imagining scenarios not likely to happen for the reasons we’ve discussed. Your position is so far fetched based on the current values that Anet expresses and exhibits through their development of the game that it’s simply not worth considering anything you have to say beyond a purely hypothetical, academic discussion.
And with this sort of nonsense you accuse me of not discussing the issue in good faith?
Nothing I’ve talked about has been out of line with changes they’ve already made to the game, or impossible to implement while keeping the economy as stable as it has been overall.
Ascended weapons/armors gave value to items that had relatively no value to begin with. Increasing precursors rates would cause an increase in demand for all of the items used for making legendary weapons causing those prices to rise.
Yes, but as you’re aware because we’ve been over it at least a half-dozen times in this thread alone, that is correctable. Nobody is suggesting they just dump precursors on the market without making any other corrections. If the demand for T6 mats would increase, for example, then they would either increase the supply on those as well, or reduce the amount needed by the recipes, to balance this impact out.
A lot of players would find it difficult to make gold as the only reliable source would be those methods which produce gold directly (e.g. dungeons).
That’s how people SHOULD be making gold, off the game, not off the markets. People making gold off the markets is the problem, not the goal.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
That’s how people SHOULD be making gold, off the game, not off the markets. People making gold off the markets is the problem, not the goal.
If there is no incentive to sell things at a profit on the TP there will be serious supply issues and many items people want to buy will have no sellers. Unmet demand is a serious problem for an economy. Far worse than the middle class being unable to afford superfluous luxuries.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
A lot of players would find it difficult to make gold as the only reliable source would be those methods which produce gold directly (e.g. dungeons).
That’s how people SHOULD be making gold, off the game, not off the markets. People making gold off the markets is the problem, not the goal.
People already DO make money off the game. World Bosses, Fractals, Dungeons, Silverwastes, etc. There are so many options that I’m surprised that people still complain about not having opportunities.
The problem here is that there are Entitled players who want easy Gold and easy luxury items with no effort. If you could farm the same amount of Gold mindlessly by spamming “1” as compared to smart TP players researching trades, this game economy would fail faster than D3. Currency would be devalued so badly, that Ecto and T6 mat prices would cost 300 Gold each. 1 million Gold would be considered the “Middle Class”. But lucky for us, we have John to prevent that.
If you want cheap Precursors, I’ve already shown you where you can do to get them. If you want Gold making opportunities, try the suggestions in my first paragraph. Combine these two together, and you profit.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
All the gold made on the tp has been made by regular events/rewards before, otherwise it wouldnt be in game.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
If there is no incentive to sell things at a profit on the TP there will be serious supply issues and many items people want to buy will have no sellers. Unmet demand is a serious problem for an economy. Far worse than the middle class being unable to afford superfluous luxuries.
If there is demand, then people will supply it. If there is no demand, then people won’t supply those things, and players that have those things can just salvage or vendor them. There are thousands of items on the TP that sell for vendor prices, it’s not a big deal if more items do as well.
The problem here is that there are Entitled players who want easy Gold and easy luxury items with no effort.
I know, that’s what I’m saying, you shouldn’t be able to just buy Precursors and Legendaries off the TP with gold you got from playing the markets, you should actually have to get out into the game an earn them.
If you could farm the same amount of Gold mindlessly by spamming “1” as compared to smart TP players researching trades, this game economy would fail faster than D3.
While I think we can agree that you shouldn’t make a ton of gold by spamming 1 all day, why should you make any more gold than that by playing the markets without ever even leaving town? At least someone spamming 1 is playing the game.
If you want cheap Precursors, I’ve already shown you where you can do to get them.
Where can you find a cheap Dawn? So far you’ve only pointed to cheap Rage, and nobody wants cheap Rage, which is why it’s cheap. If you’re suggesting they are equivalent then you’re just making a pointless strawman argument.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
The trading post, as well as trading on it, are part of the game. Someone who plays on the trading post is not playing the game less than someone who doesn’t just as a PvP player isn’t playing the game less than a PvE player. They’re just different aspects of the same game.
While I think we can agree that you shouldn’t make a ton of gold by spamming 1 all day, why should you make any more gold than that by playing the markets without ever even leaving town? At least someone spamming 1 is playing the game.
In response to that:
This is a great thread.
A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
While I think we can agree that you shouldn’t make a ton of gold by spamming 1 all day, why should you make any more gold than that by playing the markets without ever even leaving town? At least someone spamming 1 is playing the game.
In response to that:
This is a great thread.
A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.
While that might be like the word of god to you, it doesn’t necessarily mean that to everyone. To some it’s just his opinion, just like you have yours and I have mine.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Nothing I’ve talked about has been out of line with changes they’ve already made to the game, or impossible to implement while keeping the economy as stable as it has been overall.
You suggested Anet should allow for disorder in the market and that players would just ride out any chaos that ensues in the market from increasing precursors and mats to appease their desire for legendaries. That is completely out of line with changes Anet have made in the game and market stability. Implying it’s not is just foolish.
While that might be like the word of god to you, it doesn’t necessarily mean that to everyone. To some it’s just his opinion, just like you have yours and I have mine.
Considering he has his finger on the pulse of the economy in this game, his opinion is as close to The Word as we are going to get.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
While that might be like the word of god to you, it doesn’t necessarily mean that to everyone. To some it’s just his opinion, just like you have yours and I have mine.
Yup. I am in no way shocked that the game’s resident economist believes that the economy is a vital aspect of the game, but I firmly disagree with him and will never have any respect for players that make their fortunes through the TP.
Perhaps it is impossible for us to convince John Smith to make Precursors more available, but the decision isn’t likely his to make, it would be made by someone higher up the design hierarchy, and it would only be his job to make that decision work within the economy as best he’s able.
You suggested Anet should allow for disorder in the market and that players would just ride out any chaos that ensues in the market from increasing precursors and mats to appease their desire for legendaries. That is completely out of line with changes Anet have made in the game and market stability. Implying it’s not is just foolish.
As I noted, they’ve done it before when introducing things like account bound dyes and ascended crafting. Properly implemented, nothing I’ve suggested would have any more impact on the market than those moves. You guys refuse to accept that there is a middleground here, and insist on positing a scenario in which the precursor adjustment would be made completely in a vacuum, without any other counterbalancing changes to minimize the market impacts. The markets would be different afterwards, some things would go up a bit, some would go down, but I don’t think that overall they would be any worse than what we’ve got.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
While that might be like the word of god to you, it doesn’t necessarily mean that to everyone. To some it’s just his opinion, just like you have yours and I have mine.
Yup. I am in no way shocked that the game’s resident economist believes that the economy is a vital aspect of the game, but I firmly disagree with him and will never have any respect for players that make their fortunes through the TP.
Perhaps it is impossible for us to convince John Smith to make Precursors more available, but the decision isn’t likely his to make, it would be made by someone higher up the design hierarchy, and it would only be his job to make that decision work within the economy as best he’s able.
You suggested Anet should allow for disorder in the market and that players would just ride out any chaos that ensues in the market from increasing precursors and mats to appease their desire for legendaries. That is completely out of line with changes Anet have made in the game and market stability. Implying it’s not is just foolish.
As I noted, they’ve done it before when introducing things like account bound dyes and ascended crafting. Properly implemented, nothing I’ve suggested would have any more impact on the market than those moves. You guys refuse to accept that there is a middleground here, and insist on positing a scenario in which the precursor adjustment would be made completely in a vacuum, without any other counterbalancing changes to minimize the market impacts. The markets would be different afterwards, some things would go up a bit, some would go down, but I don’t think that overall they would be any worse than what we’ve got.
I’m not against a middle ground. I am against your idea that precursors should be made so very widely available that it causes the prices to fall to the 250G level and if the economy fails as a result then kitten it. I’m more than willing to sit with Phys and Essence to find some idea we could compromise on. Of course it would ultimately be up to Anet.
Just remember this – John works for Anet, and is responsible for the health of the game economy. He was hired for his expertise in the areas of business and economics. So things he says are not merely his personal opinions, but rather sound logical reasoning from years of experience and education. If something is wrong and needs changing, he’ll be consulted to see what the best course of action is.
If you have a broken arm, you don’t go to your school janitor for medical advice. You go to the school nurse, or to the hospital for expert help. It’s the same with taking economic advice from someone who doesn’t understand the economy, or the repercussions of decisions that impact global markets.
Yup. I am in no way shocked that the game’s resident economist believes that the economy is a vital aspect of the game, but I firmly disagree with him and will never have any respect for players that make their fortunes through the TP.
I’m really jealous that Apple made fortunes in business with innovative products. But you’ll never hear me complain to my Senator that the government should take over private businesses, so that luxury goods can then be spread evenly to the whole population for a “reasonable” or “fair” price.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
So things he says are not merely his personal opinions, but rather sound logical reasoning from years of experience and education.
Sure, but it’s not necessarily a holistic viewpoint of the game either. If you ask a raid designer which features are most important to the game, he’d likely say something involving raiding. If you ask the PvP balance team, they’d likely say PvP balance (which is why so many class changes seem to completely ignore the impact, or lack thereof, the change will have to PvE gameplay). If you’re a hammer then everything is a nail.
I have no doubt that the changes I suggest would have economic impacts, and correcting for those might involve work on their end, but at the end of the day, this game is far bigger than the economy, the economy is only a small portion of it, and the game as a whole takes priority, the economy has to figure out its place in that whole.
I’m really jealous that Apple made fortunes in business with innovative products. But you’ll never hear me complain to my Senator that the government should take over private businesses, so that luxury goods can then be spread evenly to the whole population for a “reasonable” or “fair” price.
Fair enough, but ANet already HAS that control, they are just choosing not to exercise it. You can’t compare ANet’s role to just the US government’s. Their role is more like the US government, PLUS the board of every company in the country, PLUS the natural and/or divine forces that determined the location and quantities of every natural resource, as well as their physical properties, and can readjust them at whim.
And yes, when a company like Apple is only offering a product for a price that people consider unreasonable, there is some degree of consumer pressure that they should adjust it (well, less so in Apple’s case because their customers are a bit sycophantic, let’s take the Xbox One as a better example, which has seen two significant price corrections since launch).
Think of it this way, when Apple puts out a new iPhone, they have development costs, and they have production costs, and they have material costs, and the result is the price of the phone. Imagine that they had it within their power to produce it with zero development costs, zero production costs, and could reduce the material costs to zero if they so chose. Would it still be considered reasonable by the public for them to charge hundreds of dollars for their product?
Also, you still haven’t said where I can find a cheap Dawn.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Also, you still haven’t said where I can find a cheap Dawn.
Every single Dawn that spawned in game since release just required the player to kill a single mob, finish 1 event, open 1 container or forge 4 weapons of rare or exotic rarity.
Doesnt get much cheaper than that.
If you need help to find out which mobs or events reward you with loot or cant find a Mystic Forge, use the wiki.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Also, you still haven’t said where I can find a cheap Dawn.
You can follow Wanze’s advice, or you can simply put in a Buy Order for a Dawn that’s cheaper than the listed price.
Edit – On a side note, you do know that Apple’s profit margins on their products is close to 70% right? Make for $200, sell for $650.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
If there is no incentive to sell things at a profit on the TP there will be serious supply issues and many items people want to buy will have no sellers. Unmet demand is a serious problem for an economy. Far worse than the middle class being unable to afford superfluous luxuries.
If there is demand, then people will supply it. If there is no demand, then people won’t supply those things, and players that have those things can just salvage or vendor them. There are thousands of items on the TP that sell for vendor prices, it’s not a big deal if more items do as well.
Yeah you’re a genius. So the point I was making is that if there is a demand, and adequate supply there will be money to be made on the trading post. You said people shouldn’t be able to make money on the trading post. If there is no profit to be made no one will supply the items.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
I am against your idea that precursors should be made so very widely available that it causes the prices to fall to the 250G level and if the economy fails as a result then kitten it.
If you read the title of this thread it clearly mentions that there are Precursors out there for less than that. Just not,
Also, you still haven’t said where I can find a cheap Dawn.
BTW JS doesnt say that the TP is more or less important than any other aspect of the game like you suggest he did here.
If you ask a raid designer which features are most important to the game, he’d likely say something involving raiding. If you ask the PvP balance team, they’d likely say PvP balance (which is why so many class changes seem to completely ignore the impact, or lack thereof, the change will have to PvE gameplay). If you’re a hammer then everything is a nail.
To clarify,
This is a great thread.
A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.
I am against your idea that precursors should be made so very widely available that it causes the prices to fall to the 250G level and if the economy fails as a result then kitten it.
If you read the title of this thread it clearly mentions that there are Precursors out there for less than that. Just not,
What’s your point? He wants all precursors to be that cheap which was the point of my statement.
600+ posts on this simple concept that due to usefulness or popularity as a weapon of choice that some precursors are considerably cheaper than others.
So when are we going to have a thread debating the shade of blue the sky is or how moist water is?
Just stop. Whatever point either side is trying to make has been driven so far into the ground that it’ll start poking Mordremoth.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
I have no doubt that the changes I suggest would have economic impacts, and correcting for those might involve work on their end, but at the end of the day, this game is far bigger than the economy, the economy is only a small portion of it, and the game as a whole takes priority, the economy has to figure out its place in that whole.
While the game is bigger than the economy, Legendaries are no more ‘the game’ than the economy is. Just because you define the game as getting a legendary, that’s not any more true than someone that defines the economy as the game. Therefore to change one at the expense of the other and claim it’s what is good for the game is nonsense.
Also, JS rightly identifies the economy as PART of the game. Your accusation that he’s too focused on the economy to make his opinion matter beyond it is also nonsense.
Every single Dawn that spawned in game since release just required the player to kill a single mob, finish 1 event, open 1 container or forge 4 weapons of rare or exotic rarity.
Doesnt get much cheaper than that.
Not helpful, that’s RNG. I’ve killed hundreds of thousands of mobs, opening thousands of bags and hundreds of chests, dropped hundreds of rare weapons into the forge, and never found a single Precursor, not even Rage. Now Pengy promised “cheap precursors,” and he would know full well that this statement, in context, would have to refer to the good precursors, not the junk ones, so I’m just asking what his line is on the good precursors.
You can follow Wanze’s advice, or you can simply put in a Buy Order for a Dawn that’s cheaper than the listed price.
And you believe that if I put a buy order for Dawn at 250g or less, it would be filled within a reasonable amount of times, a few weeks at most?
Edit – On a side note, you do know that Apple’s profit margins on their products is close to 70% right? Make for $200, sell for $650.
I don’t believe that’s the cut Apple gets, the retail places tend to get their cut, but yes, Apple is a total racket, which is why I veered the example towards companies with smarter customers.
Yeah you’re a genius. So the point I was making is that if there is a demand, and adequate supply there will be money to be made on the trading post. You said people shouldn’t be able to make money on the trading post. If there is no profit to be made no one will supply the items.
There’s no problem with people harvesting items from the world and selling them for above vendor prices, that is just rewarding core gameplay. What I was referring to was players buying items off the TP and then selling them back to customers at a higher price, which is a predatory process that benefits no one (and please don’t try to argue otherwise, it’s already ridiculous enough in this thread). If they ever did decide to clamp down on that sort of practice, it should be through methods like bind-on-purchase, rather than methods that would impact normal players.
BTW JS doesnt say that the TP is more or less important than any other aspect of the game like you suggest he did here.
Yes, my comments were more in relation to the idea bandied about here that they couldn’t possibly make precursors more available because of the potential impact to the economy.
What’s your point? He wants all precursors to be that cheap which was the point of my statement.
~100 gold is far from cheap. ~250g is quite expensive. If you’re looking for adjectives, you could at least go with “affordable.”
While the game is bigger than the economy, Legendaries are no more ‘the game’ than the economy is.
Perhaps so, but then how can you claim for a fact that the existing economic meta is more important to the average player than better legendary availability? You’d have to at least poll the population to get data on that.
Just because you define the game as getting a legendary, that’s not any more true than someone that defines the economy as the game.
Well, if you’re going to go that route, there is a badge on the character select screen for having earned a Legendary, none for having made a lot of money. There is an achievement for earning 5 of the Legendaries, and another for having two of the same type, while the only achievement directly tied to gold maxes out at 200g, less than 1/5th of one Dawn. There’s another to purchase armors, but that’s only 128g, so 328g total to max out the money achievements.
Also, JS rightly identifies the economy as PART of the game. Your accusation that he’s too focused on the economy to make his opinion matter beyond it is also nonsense.
I have to say, I can’t recall him commenting on other aspects of the game.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
600+ posts on this simple concept that due to usefulness or popularity as a weapon of choice that some precursors are considerably cheaper than others.
I am literally convinced at this point that Penguin is some sort of robot, since the idea that people want to make legendaries for the weapons their characters actually use rather than just go for the cheapest option (which are all unpopular and mostly underwater weapons) in order to have a legendary is completely alien to him.
Now Pengy promised “cheap precursors,” and he would know full well that this statement, in context, would have to refer to the good precursors, not the junk ones, so I’m just asking what his line is on the good precursors.
We both know it’s “pull yourself up by your virtual bootstraps”.
And you believe that if I put a buy order for Dawn at 250g or less, it would be filled within a reasonable amount of times, a few weeks at most?
Sure. As long as you play a game with no dynamic, player based economy with concepts like Supply and Demand, then you should get your Dawn in no time. On a similar note, if there’s no one else with the same desire as you to purchase Dawn, and isn’t willing to pay more than what you value it at, then you should have no problems.
~100 gold is far from cheap. ~250g is quite expensive. If you’re looking for adjectives, you could at least go with “affordable.”
If you played the content that Anet provides you, 250 Gold would be maybe a week or two worth of game time. World Bosses, Dungeons, Fractals, LS chest runs, Maize ambient farm, etc.
Heck, the Maize farm got you 90 Silver worth of ToT every couple of minutes. You could walk away with ~20 Gold profit per hour, just by selling ToT bags to other players playing RNG for the mini wolf.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
Perhaps so, but then how can you claim for a fact that the existing economic meta is more important to the average player than better legendary availability? You’d have to at least poll the population to get data on that.
I don’t claim it and no poll is necessary. The game is not a democracy. Anet will implement what they feel is best for the game. If they thought more legendaries were more important than the economy, then you have to ask yourself why they don’t have a legendary dev instead of an economy dev … and similar questions like that. The answer is pretty obvious for people with their heads in open air. This is a consumer product; your ‘vote’ is how much you patronize Anet playing the game.
Just because you define the game as getting a legendary, that’s not any more true than someone that defines the economy as the game.
Well, if you’re going to go that route, there is a badge on the character select screen for having earned a Legendary, none for having made a lot of money. There is an achievement for earning 5 of the Legendaries, and another for having two of the same type, while the only achievement directly tied to gold maxes out at 200g, less than 1/5th of one Dawn. There’s another to purchase armors, but that’s only 128g, so 328g total to max out the money achievements.
Achievements and starting screens are not indicative of the rank of importance that Anet places on elements of the game … and in fact there IS an achievement for earning money BTW … so get your facts straight.
The bottom line is that the economy has to ‘work’ in order for the game to work. It’s not something that you seem to think can be ignored or sacrificed at the expense of players’ whims. ON the other hand, legendaries do not affect how the game works at all. They could be removed and it wouldn’t impact game play. The fact you compare the importance of the economy to legendaries indicates how little you seem to understand about the mechanics of the game.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Sure. As long as you play a game with no dynamic, player based economy with concepts like Supply and Demand, then you should get your Dawn in no time. On a similar note, if there’s no one else with the same desire as you to purchase Dawn, and isn’t willing to pay more than what you value it at, then you should have no problems.
I’m not talking in abstracts, I’m talking about the actual market we’re dealing with. If I were to place a buy order at 250g, do you feel that in the current market environment that it would be fulfilled within a few weeks’ wait?
Personally, I doubt it would be, and that’s because the supply is very low and the demand is very high. I think that to satisfy that 250g buy order, then either the supply would have to raise to the level that it fulfills all existing orders and then some, or the demand would have to be greatly reduced, such as providing alternate Sunrise recipes that can use something other than Dawn in that slot. Look at Twister in a Jar though, used to be going for 10g or more, now it sells for around 30s. It’s doable.
If you played the content that Anet provides you, 250 Gold would be maybe a week or two worth of game time. World Bosses, Dungeons, Fractals, LS chest runs, Maize ambient farm, etc.
Let them eat cake!
If they thought more legendaries were more important than the economy, then you have to ask yourself why they don’t have a legendary dev instead of an economy dev … and similar questions like that. The answer is pretty obvious for people with their heads in open air.
Well yeah, Legendaries at this point don’t require a ton of work, since they are already “done” for the time being. Just because a certain element requires more hands-on effort to keep it working smoothly does not mean that it’s more important than an element that takes less effort.
Achievements and starting screens are not indicative of the rank of importance that Anet places on elements of the game … and in fact there IS an achievement for earning money BTW … so get your facts straight.
I said just that in the paragraph you quoted, apparently without reading it.
The bottom line is that the economy has to ‘work’ in order for the game to work.
No it doesn’t. The economy could be a complete fiasco, everything at vendor values or whatever, and the game would keep on running just fine. If the economy were to implode, and there was no way for them to fix it, then at most they would just have to add certain items to the vendors to make up for it, but again, nobody is suggesting that they should implode the economy.
The fact you compare the importance of the economy to legendaries indicates how little you seem to understand about the mechanics of the game.
Really? And in what way would you be unable to play the game if there were a complete economic collapse? Which activities would be impossible for you without a functional economy?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
BTW JS doesnt say that the TP is more or less important than any other aspect of the game like you suggest he did here.
Yes, my comments were more in relation to the idea bandied about here that they couldn’t possibly make precursors more available because of the potential impact to the economy.
No your comments had nothing to do with that. Your comments were simply a dig at the lead economist trying to negate the fact that his educated opinion supersedes your entitled opinion.
So things he says are not merely his personal opinions, but rather sound logical reasoning from years of experience and education.
Sure, but it’s not necessarily a holistic viewpoint of the game either. If you ask a raid designer which features are most important to the game, he’d likely say something involving raiding. If you ask the PvP balance team, they’d likely say PvP balance (which is why so many class changes seem to completely ignore the impact, or lack thereof, the change will have to PvE gameplay). If you’re a hammer then everything is a nail.
If the economy were to implode, and there was no way for them to fix it, then at most they would just have to add certain items to the vendors to make up for it, but again, nobody is suggesting that they should implode the economy.
Not VERY low, but reasonable. The 50-250g range someplace, or work equivalent to that.
And yes, I don’t care about the impact. They should try to reduce the impact as much as they can manage, but if they can’t manage it to have zero impact, then so be it. The economy serves the players, not the other way around.
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
No, but it is more important than the trading post. People around here insist that making precursors super-available would wreck the TP like Scarlet wrecked Lion’s Arch, and maybe they’re right, but even if they are right, it’s a change that needs to happen. Let the damage come, let the damage be repaired, we’ll move on.
(edited by eithinan.9841)
No your comments had nothing to do with that. Your comments were simply a dig at the lead economist trying to negate the fact that his educated opinion supersedes your entitled opinion.
I can only be responsible for what I say, not for what you think I say.
If the economy were to implode, and there was no way for them to fix it, then at most they would just have to add certain items to the vendors to make up for it, but again, nobody is suggesting that they should implode the economy.
Not VERY low, but reasonable. The 50-250g range someplace, or work equivalent to that.
And yes, I don’t care about the impact. They should try to reduce the impact as much as they can manage, but if they can’t manage it to have zero impact, then so be it. The economy serves the players, not the other way around.
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
No, but it is more important than the trading post. People around here insist that making precursors super-available would wreck the TP like Scarlet wrecked Lion’s Arch, and maybe they’re right, but even if they are right, it’s a change that needs to happen. Let the damage come, let the damage be repaired, we’ll move on.
Yes? Did you have a point to make there or are you just a fan?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Do you have a point to make Ohoni other than keeping this thread on page one?
Until precursor drops become more plentiful or predictable (do X get precursor), the prices are not going to come down. End of story.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
While I think we can agree that you shouldn’t make a ton of gold by spamming 1 all day, why should you make any more gold than that by playing the markets without ever even leaving town? At least someone spamming 1 is playing the game.
In response to that:
This is a great thread.
A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.
Economists are already ruining real life, so why should I believe in what they say inside a game.
1st person worldwide to reach 35,000 achievement points.
Until precursor drops become more plentiful or predictable (do X get precursor), the prices are not going to come down. End of story.
Well yes, I’ve said as much, I just think that they should become much more plentiful and/or predictable, which is something only ANet has control over.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Economists are already ruining real life, so why should I believe in what they say inside a game.
And the weather guy on the 6 PM news makes it snow.
Do you have a point to make Ohoni other than keeping this thread on page one?
.
The point is, he’s enjoying all this attention. Even the dimmest bulb would have lit up by now.
It does sort of amuse me how much you guys insist on questioning my intelligence. It lets me know I must be on the right track if you feel the need to diminish me so much.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
In a sub forum where discussions seem to base themselves on the in-game economy as an immutable natural force and the word of an economist is likened to the word of a deity, this thread is a breath of fresh air. IMO it might be one of the few that has some real and important discussions going on.
Really? And in what way would you be unable to play the game if there were a complete economic collapse? Which activities would be impossible for you without a functional economy?
I like the irony of your question: a great example being the exact thing you claim it would fix. Crafting legendaries
Do you have a point to make Ohoni other than keeping this thread on page one?
.The point is, he’s enjoying all this attention. Even the dimmest bulb would have lit up by now.
economists dont just predict, some of them are engineers, mechanics, scientists, theorists.
sometimes they are weather men, sometimes they make the weather
I like the irony of your question: a great example being the exact thing you claim it would fix. Crafting legendaries
I don’t see how, considering we’re talking about making the expensive bit less expensive, and most of the other ingredients cannot be purchased on the TP anyways. Even if it became impossible to buy T6 mats on the TP, it would still be easier to farm for those than to get a high-end Precursor at current prices.
And besides which, you were the one that insisted that having a legendary was not important in the first place, so if we factor legendaries out of the equation, as you insist, then having or not having them shouldn’t make a difference to you, so again, “in what way would you be unable to play the game if there were a complete economic collapse? Which activities would be impossible for you without a functional economy?”
I’ll also repeat, just so that we don’t have yet another loop of off-track babbling, that I am not advocating for an economic collapse, I believe that the changes I want could be made in a way that preserves market stability and causes no more chaos than the various other changes they’ve made over the years. I’m merely also positing that even IF the economy were to collapse, the game would keep going largely intact.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”