Guild Wars 2

Mmm, I don’t know about that… On the one hand, I do agree that ANet should always do its best to promote and fair and level playing field. Players taking advantage of insider information to profit, for example, should never be allowed. (e.g. Someone has a friend who works with ANet. He learns about the Treasure Hunter/Exotic Hunter collections a week before the previews go out and takes the opportunity to buy up the more rare items so he can charge a king’s ransom for them when the update goes live.)

But at the same time, once information hits the public domain (such as when dulfy and other sites published previews about the new Collections), is it really fair to penalise those who are willing to spend extra time and energy doing research and keeping themselves up to date? To flip the situation, one change I was vehemently opposed to was how during SAB: Back to School, ANet made it so that the bonus bauble chests you could dig up became once per account per day. This made it extremely hard for me to gear up my 5 alts with the new SAB gear, because even though I could do the content 5 times, I’d only get rewarded for it once. To my mind, if someone is willing to put in 5 times the work, they deserve to get 5 times the reward.

But at the same time, once information hits the public domain (such as when dulfy and other sites published previews about the new Collections), is it really fair to penalise those who are willing to spend extra time and energy doing research and keeping themselves up to date?

Yes.

Keep in mind, I’m not talking about penalizing people for keeping up to date purely for their own uses. I’m only talking about penalizing people that intend to prey on their fellow players, by buying up materials when they are cheap, removing more than they need from the open market, and then reselling them when they are more expensive.

There is no benefit to society if a player buys up thousands of candy corn* last month for a low price and then sells it this week for a higher price, all that means is that hundreds of end-consumers of candy corn, who only needed a small amount for their own direct needs, will end up having to spend more money because some other players bought those goods for no other reason than to benefit themselves at the second player’s cost.

*Just an example, I have no idea how that market is doing

So yes, those players deserve to have it backfire as often as ANet can manage it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Also, there’s a common misconception being spread by other players that Precursors are “overpriced” or “expensive”. After doing some research, I’ve successfully countered all those claims.

There’s a common misconception that whales are “huge” or even “gi-normous”. After doing some searching, I’ve found a picture that successfully counters all those claims – they’re not much bigger than people!
http://www.thisblogrules.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/white-whale.jpg

juno.1840:

By all means continue to defend — there’s good reason to defend the TP and economy.

However making a trolling post doesn’t do your argument justice — it just drives the wedge a little farther between your arguments and the players you’re trying to convince.

The OP is total snark — not even subtle. I’m not sure what I’m more disappointed about… the lack of forum policy enforcement or the players that defend this post as some champion argument against economic ignorance.

At least the players that post the “precursors are too expensive” aren’t doing it to troll — they genuinely believe there’s a problem. This topic is just junk.

Not sure why you have so much hate for cheap Precursors. Look, it’s your choice if you decide to want a highly demanded item like Dusk. I’m not stopping you from wanting it. I’m merely letting people know that there are currently Precursors that you can get pretty darn cheap, and that this is proof that there’s no problem with the Precursor system as a whole.

The real problem is the idea that some players feel Entitled to getting an item they want. And the fallacy here is that they believe there’s a problem, because they can’t get said item.

This joke… 70 Gold for a precursor this is extremely broken, the price is too small for a precursor… This is totally pathetic… And 1400 Gold for a precursor it’s totally broken, the price is extremely too expensive. The TP of GW2 have a real problem and is totally broken, it will not work correctly and must be repaired. One must be blind or extremely stupid to not see the problem lol.

It’s not broken. It’s a little something called Supply and Demand. Let me quote myself to educate you on the real problem:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The real problem is the idea that some players feel Entitled to getting an item they want. And the fallacy here is that they believe there’s a problem, because they can’t get said item.

The real problem is:

Colin Johanson said:
We still plan to do both new legendary weapons, as well as a clear path (on top of the current random chance) to gain precursors which players can see their progress and understand how much work they have left to do to gain it.

Zoxea.9564:

The real problem is:

Colin Johanson said:
We still plan to do both new legendary weapons, as well as a clear path (on top of the current random chance) to gain precursors which players can see their progress and understand how much work they have left to do to gain it.

I dont see how this would add value to the cheap precursors.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

juno.1840:

By all means continue to defend — there’s good reason to defend the TP and economy.

However making a trolling post doesn’t do your argument justice — it just drives the wedge a little farther between your arguments and the players you’re trying to convince.

The OP is total snark — not even subtle. I’m not sure what I’m more disappointed about… the lack of forum policy enforcement or the players that defend this post as some champion argument against economic ignorance.

At least the players that post the “precursors are too expensive” aren’t doing it to troll — they genuinely believe there’s a problem. This topic is just junk.

Not sure why you have so much hate for cheap Precursors. Look, it’s your choice if you decide to want a highly demanded item like Dusk. I’m not stopping you from wanting it. I’m merely letting people know that there are currently Precursors that you can get pretty darn cheap, and that this is proof that there’s no problem with the Precursor system as a whole.

The real problem is the idea that some players feel Entitled to getting an item they want. And the fallacy here is that they believe there’s a problem, because they can’t get said item.

I don’t have hate for cheap precursors. I have hate for posts that are not really meant to be helpful. You post is demeaning and provides no value.

This is not a discussion on entitlement… it’s you making fun of players who are genuinely concerned with something they see as an issue.

Personally I have no issues with the price of precursors. I have no desire to grind out another legendary. However you don’t see me in these forums belittling those who are trying.

It is beyond debate that those who question the price of Precursors deserve naught but the severest Ridicule, as they are Entitled, they despise Hard Work, and they are undoubtedly Communists or Socialists (perhaps Both!). Therefore, it is the duty of the benevolent Rich to expose their Flawed logic. An Unpleasant task, perhaps, but those who have succeeded— through Skill, Cunning, and Superiority of Birth— to amass significant amounts of pixelated Wealth should view the Education of their lesser brethren not as a Burden, but rather as their God-Given Responsibility.

(How’d I do?)

Just reposting this:

juno.1840:

-snip- “precursors are too expensive” aren’t doing it to troll — they genuinely believe there’s a problem. This topic is just junk.

can you share what the problem is? if it’s pricey, i don’t think that is a problem; it is simply supply and demand. the same can be said for ANY item that is highly sought after but very very few supplies. Say Mini Karka, they don’t even do anything.

Also, I’ll copy/paste one of the dev’s reply about certain price of items from this thread (I bolded some part for emphasis)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Is-the-maize-balm-rat-farm-an-exploit/first#post4510750

In a player driven economy, the demand of an item surpassing the supply generated by the playerbase will increase the value of it. While there are some items in these bags that are not based around cosmetics (the low drop rate of T6 mats), the price of these bags is directly relative to the cosmetic value that is being placed on them. While currently profitable, that profit is derrived directly from other players and their willingness to play a higher price. In essence, this is a transfer of wealth not wealth generation.
As far as this specific spawn of ambients is concerned, it’s definatly one of the faster ones to farm. As long as the playerbase is willing to pay for that item, and the demand remains higher than the supply, it will be profitable. This is not an exploit, it’s the playerbase saying “thank you for farming this, because we didn’t want to”.

if it’s pricey, i don’t think that is a problem; it is simply supply and demand. the same can be said for ANY item that is highly sought after but very very few supplies. Say Mini Karka, they don’t even do anything.

And I’ll say for the millionth time that “Supply and demand is NEVER an excuse for anything in a game where the developers are capable of adjusting both supply AND demand as they see fit.”

Things aren’t the way they are “because supply and demand,” they are the way they are because ANet CHOSE to enter the items into a certain way that leads to a lower supply and/or they CHOSE to give the items features that would be highly desirable to a large number of players. Things are the way they are “because ANet chose for them to be the way they are,” and if the players have a problem with that, then the players have a problem with ANet’s choices and would like them to change.

essjaybee.1283:

It is beyond debate that those who question the price of Precursors deserve naught but the severest Ridicule, as they are Entitled, they despise Hard Work, and they are undoubtedly Communists or Socialists (perhaps Both!). Therefore, it is the duty of the benevolent Rich to expose their Flawed logic. An Unpleasant task, perhaps, but those who have succeeded— through Skill, Cunning, and Superiority of Birth— to amass significant amounts of pixelated Wealth should view the Education of their lesser brethren not as a Burden, but rather as their God-Given Responsibility.

(How’d I do?)

Wow, for a moment, I hated you. Grats.
Reminds me of the faux-conversations I have with my ’bandmate.
/golfclap

DeathMetal.8264:

Just reposting this:

juno.1840:

-snip- “precursors are too expensive” aren’t doing it to troll — they genuinely believe there’s a problem. This topic is just junk.

can you share what the problem is? if it’s pricey, i don’t think that is a problem; it is simply supply and demand. the same can be said for ANY item that is highly sought after but very very few supplies. Say Mini Karka, they don’t even do anything.

Also, I’ll copy/paste one of the dev’s reply about certain price of items from this thread (I bolded some part for emphasis)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Is-the-maize-balm-rat-farm-an-exploit/first#post4510750

In a player driven economy, the demand of an item surpassing the supply generated by the playerbase will increase the value of it. While there are some items in these bags that are not based around cosmetics (the low drop rate of T6 mats), the price of these bags is directly relative to the cosmetic value that is being placed on them. While currently profitable, that profit is derrived directly from other players and their willingness to play a higher price. In essence, this is a transfer of wealth not wealth generation.
As far as this specific spawn of ambients is concerned, it’s definatly one of the faster ones to farm. As long as the playerbase is willing to pay for that item, and the demand remains higher than the supply, it will be profitable. This is not an exploit, it’s the playerbase saying “thank you for farming this, because we didn’t want to”.

problem with that devs line of thinking when applied to this argument,

• is it considers the playerbase as one entity setting the price, when an item is extremely rare, it is a small subset of the playerbase setting the price.
• it also assumes you can farm the item, you cannot farm precursors, you can only kill massive amounts of things, or gamble.

Essentially, as is common, when things are taken to extremes, they create situations which are not consistent with how it works at normal levels.

the specific situation the dev was refering to was a high drop rate item, trick or treat bags, which anyone who wants it, can farm, and the quantity of the item and price puts it in range of mostly normal players. If some one buys a ToT bag, its not because there is no other viable choice, its because they want them now and fast and are willing to pay for it.
people have played for years, and gambled in the MF and failed, these people feel they have no choice but to pay whatever is asked if they want the item.

As has been said, due to the innate nature of random distribution, it seems to make random as an exclusive means of obtaining and item, a poor choice when the rate is low.

Ohoni.6057:

if it’s pricey, i don’t think that is a problem; it is simply supply and demand. the same can be said for ANY item that is highly sought after but very very few supplies. Say Mini Karka, they don’t even do anything.

And I’ll say for the millionth time that “Supply and demand is NEVER an excuse for anything in a game where the developers are capable of adjusting both supply AND demand as they see fit.”

Things aren’t the way they are “because supply and demand,” they are the way they are because ANet CHOSE to enter the items into a certain way that leads to a lower supply and/or they CHOSE to give the items features that would be highly desirable to a large number of players. Things are the way they are “because ANet chose for them to be the way they are,” and if the players have a problem with that, then the players have a problem with ANet’s choices and would like them to change.

No. You can continue to run the belief that players do not set demand and supply onbth TP but you’ll continue to be wrong. You’ve got your own opinion on how a game’s economy should run in your view which is along the lines of socialism. You then ignored peer reviewed topics and twisted them around to fit your beliefs. You didn’t like that player set supply and demand on the TP so you constructed a way to rationalize your opinion.

You’re also completely ignoring the type of economy that Anet is going for with this game. What you’re trying to do is similar to someone trying to force North Korea’s way of running their economy onto anyone that uses capitalism. They’re conflicting ideologies and do not go together.

I’ve said it before, you’d be happiest with a vendor based economy where players had no impact. That’s essentially what yoy’re asking for when you’re demanding Anet to dictate what supply and price levels should be.

Ohoni.6057:

if it’s pricey, i don’t think that is a problem; it is simply supply and demand. the same can be said for ANY item that is highly sought after but very very few supplies. Say Mini Karka, they don’t even do anything.

And I’ll say for the millionth time that “Supply and demand is NEVER an excuse for anything in a game where the developers are capable of adjusting both supply AND demand as they see fit.”

Things aren’t the way they are “because supply and demand,” they are the way they are because ANet CHOSE to enter the items into a certain way that leads to a lower supply and/or they CHOSE to give the items features that would be highly desirable to a large number of players. Things are the way they are “because ANet chose for them to be the way they are,” and if the players have a problem with that, then the players have a problem with ANet’s choices and would like them to change.

Ehh, you mean to say, make Precursors drop like rain, like porous bone or whatever so common? Would you like everyone runs with legendary? Is that what Anet and the majority of the playerbase wants? And if Anet or the majority likes it that way, where is the data that says so?

Why would a player even want a legendary/precursor in the first place? For sure, it’s not JUST the stats. For skin? I have seen people say it looks ugly, so it boils down to preference. And if a LOT of people likes it, no matter if it’s a precursor, there will always be something of high demand and we get back to the same issue. Again, my example, other than the precursor, is the Mini Karka. It’s not even useful, so you like it to drop like rain too? I mean, for argument’s sake, you sound like you want the dev to make EVERYTHING drop so easy and EVERYTHING can be obtained, probably in a short amount of time.

That sounds like playing in a “private server” MMO type of game or a heavily modded game to fit “everyone’s taste”. I, for one, wouldn’t want that. If you like that kind of gameplay, I think Gw2 is not for you.

phys.7689:

DeathMetal.8264:

Just reposting this:

juno.1840:

-snip- “precursors are too expensive” aren’t doing it to troll — they genuinely believe there’s a problem. This topic is just junk.

can you share what the problem is? if it’s pricey, i don’t think that is a problem; it is simply supply and demand. the same can be said for ANY item that is highly sought after but very very few supplies. Say Mini Karka, they don’t even do anything.

Also, I’ll copy/paste one of the dev’s reply about certain price of items from this thread (I bolded some part for emphasis)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Is-the-maize-balm-rat-farm-an-exploit/first#post4510750

In a player driven economy, the demand of an item surpassing the supply generated by the playerbase will increase the value of it. While there are some items in these bags that are not based around cosmetics (the low drop rate of T6 mats), the price of these bags is directly relative to the cosmetic value that is being placed on them. While currently profitable, that profit is derrived directly from other players and their willingness to play a higher price. In essence, this is a transfer of wealth not wealth generation.
As far as this specific spawn of ambients is concerned, it’s definatly one of the faster ones to farm. As long as the playerbase is willing to pay for that item, and the demand remains higher than the supply, it will be profitable. This is not an exploit, it’s the playerbase saying “thank you for farming this, because we didn’t want to”.

problem with that devs line of thinking when applied to this argument,

• is it considers the playerbase as one entity setting the price, when an item is extremely rare, it is a small subset of the playerbase setting the price.
• it also assumes you can farm the item, you cannot farm precursors, you can only kill massive amounts of things, or gamble.

Essentially, as is common, when things are taken to extremes, they create situations which are not consistent with how it works at normal levels.

the specific situation the dev was refering to was a high drop rate item, trick or treat bags, which anyone who wants it, can farm, and the quantity of the item and price puts it in range of mostly normal players. If some one buys a ToT bag, its not because there is no other viable choice, its because they want them now and fast and are willing to pay for it.
people have played for years, and gambled in the MF and failed, these people feel they have no choice but to pay whatever is asked if they want the item.

As has been said, due to the innate nature of random distribution, it seems to make random as an exclusive means of obtaining and item, a poor choice when the rate is low.

See my reply above, applies to your reply too. If you like everything to drop like rain, easily obtained, make everything so cheap or affordable to EVERYONE (and you can’t say, affordable just for you). And you can’t say apply this ONLY to precursor. If dev has control to make Precursor come easy, it just means EVERYTHING that used to be hard to come by has to come easy too coz then, we’ll see another player (not you) who wants what you/others have (but the drop is so hard he can’t get it).

I, for one and I see some too, would not like that kind of game. If you like that kind of game, Gw2 may not be for you.

Rauderi.8706:

essjaybee.1283:

It is beyond debate that those who question the price of Precursors deserve naught but the severest Ridicule, as they are Entitled, they despise Hard Work, and they are undoubtedly Communists or Socialists (perhaps Both!). Therefore, it is the duty of the benevolent Rich to expose their Flawed logic. An Unpleasant task, perhaps, but those who have succeeded— through Skill, Cunning, and Superiority of Birth— to amass significant amounts of pixelated Wealth should view the Education of their lesser brethren not as a Burden, but rather as their God-Given Responsibility.

(How’d I do?)

Wow, for a moment, I hated you. Grats.
Reminds me of the faux-conversations I have with my ’bandmate.
/golfclap

;D

Much of this thread reads like a badly-written Gilded Age political tract (complete with Random Capitalizations for Emphasis), so I figured I’d just be a little more explicit about the philosophy on display here.

essjaybee.1283:

Rauderi.8706:

essjaybee.1283:

It is beyond debate that those who question the price of Precursors deserve naught but the severest Ridicule, as they are Entitled, they despise Hard Work, and they are undoubtedly Communists or Socialists (perhaps Both!). Therefore, it is the duty of the benevolent Rich to expose their Flawed logic. An Unpleasant task, perhaps, but those who have succeeded— through Skill, Cunning, and Superiority of Birth— to amass significant amounts of pixelated Wealth should view the Education of their lesser brethren not as a Burden, but rather as their God-Given Responsibility.

(How’d I do?)

Wow, for a moment, I hated you. Grats.
Reminds me of the faux-conversations I have with my ’bandmate.
/golfclap

;D

Much of this thread reads like a badly-written Gilded Age political tract (complete with Random Capitalizations for Emphasis), so I figured I’d just be a little more explicit about the philosophy on display here.

You’re batting 1,000 against all the strawmen out there.

essjaybee.1283:

Rauderi.8706:

essjaybee.1283:

It is beyond debate that those who question the price of Precursors deserve naught but the severest Ridicule, as they are Entitled, they despise Hard Work, and they are undoubtedly Communists or Socialists (perhaps Both!). Therefore, it is the duty of the benevolent Rich to expose their Flawed logic. An Unpleasant task, perhaps, but those who have succeeded— through Skill, Cunning, and Superiority of Birth— to amass significant amounts of pixelated Wealth should view the Education of their lesser brethren not as a Burden, but rather as their God-Given Responsibility.

(How’d I do?)

Wow, for a moment, I hated you. Grats.
Reminds me of the faux-conversations I have with my ’bandmate.
/golfclap

;D

Much of this thread reads like a badly-written Gilded Age political tract (complete with Random Capitalizations for Emphasis), so I figured I’d just be a little more explicit about the philosophy on display here.

+1.

Ohoni.6057:

if it’s pricey, i don’t think that is a problem; it is simply supply and demand. the same can be said for ANY item that is highly sought after but very very few supplies. Say Mini Karka, they don’t even do anything.

And I’ll say for the millionth time that “Supply and demand is NEVER an excuse for anything in a game where the developers are capable of adjusting both supply AND demand as they see fit.”

Devs can’t change demand for certain precursors, since they are tied to player preferred weapons. New recipes, collections can increase demand for some items but precursors are pretty much one trick ponies, a necessary step for a legendary.

DeathMetal.8264:

phys.7689:

DeathMetal.8264:

Just reposting this:

juno.1840:

-snip- “precursors are too expensive” aren’t doing it to troll — they genuinely believe there’s a problem. This topic is just junk.

can you share what the problem is? if it’s pricey, i don’t think that is a problem; it is simply supply and demand. the same can be said for ANY item that is highly sought after but very very few supplies. Say Mini Karka, they don’t even do anything.

Also, I’ll copy/paste one of the dev’s reply about certain price of items from this thread (I bolded some part for emphasis)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Is-the-maize-balm-rat-farm-an-exploit/first#post4510750

In a player driven economy, the demand of an item surpassing the supply generated by the playerbase will increase the value of it. While there are some items in these bags that are not based around cosmetics (the low drop rate of T6 mats), the price of these bags is directly relative to the cosmetic value that is being placed on them. While currently profitable, that profit is derrived directly from other players and their willingness to play a higher price. In essence, this is a transfer of wealth not wealth generation.
As far as this specific spawn of ambients is concerned, it’s definatly one of the faster ones to farm. As long as the playerbase is willing to pay for that item, and the demand remains higher than the supply, it will be profitable. This is not an exploit, it’s the playerbase saying “thank you for farming this, because we didn’t want to”.

problem with that devs line of thinking when applied to this argument,

• is it considers the playerbase as one entity setting the price, when an item is extremely rare, it is a small subset of the playerbase setting the price.
• it also assumes you can farm the item, you cannot farm precursors, you can only kill massive amounts of things, or gamble.

Essentially, as is common, when things are taken to extremes, they create situations which are not consistent with how it works at normal levels.

the specific situation the dev was refering to was a high drop rate item, trick or treat bags, which anyone who wants it, can farm, and the quantity of the item and price puts it in range of mostly normal players. If some one buys a ToT bag, its not because there is no other viable choice, its because they want them now and fast and are willing to pay for it.
people have played for years, and gambled in the MF and failed, these people feel they have no choice but to pay whatever is asked if they want the item.

As has been said, due to the innate nature of random distribution, it seems to make random as an exclusive means of obtaining and item, a poor choice when the rate is low.

See my reply above, applies to your reply too. If you like everything to drop like rain, easily obtained, make everything so cheap or affordable to EVERYONE (and you can’t say, affordable just for you). And you can’t say apply this ONLY to precursor. If dev has control to make Precursor come easy, it just means EVERYTHING that used to be hard to come by has to come easy too coz then, we’ll see another player (not you) who wants what you/others have (but the drop is so hard he can’t get it).

I, for one and I see some too, would not like that kind of game. If you like that kind of game, Gw2 may not be for you.

i never mentioned dropping like rain, i was refering to how different it is when random is applied at a very low rate, versus a higher rate.

the quote of the dev was talking about players paying a fair price because they think that it is worth it not to do it themselves. This only applies when there is not an extremely limited supply, and when players can obtain the item by other means.

I personally would prefer a game where hard to come by was based primarily on difficulty, or completing tasks. But there is also the method where things come due to large amounts of work over time (not my prefered method)I recognize that for some people gambling is never a satisfactory method.

There are many methods for controlling supply other than pure random. In fact most games have a much lower random required, and more task/difficulty/time gated mechanics.

phys.7689:

the quote of the dev was talking about players paying a fair price because they think that it is worth it not to do it themselves. This only applies when there is not an extremely limited supply, and when players can obtain the item by other means.

There are three methods to obtaining a precursor: random drops, the Mystic Forge, and buying it from the TP. I’ve gotten one through a random drop, if you are patient any player can get one just by playing the game. If you want to focus on it as a goal you can throw the appropriate type/level rares/exotics into the MF until you get it, the prices on the TP reflect the typical cost of the MF fuel, but you can reduce the cost by playing the game and collecting materials or tokens.

It has been demonstrated that Dusk sells on the TP at a rate of about once an hour, with mostly unique buyers and sellers. This means that there is a supply of Dusks coming from somewhere, and for the most part it is not just one or a handful of players controlling the market. Hundreds of players every week produce their own Dusks (not all of them sold, many are probably kept for personal use) and across all precursors there are thousands of new items generated every week.

The devs have access to a vast amount of information about the game, and can easily determine how many precursors are created, sold on the TP, forged into Legendaries, accumulated by speculators for future use, salvaged by players who don’t realize what they represent, etc.

If there truly was a problem with the process, it would be pretty obvious when the number of people forging/selling/buying precursors drops off sharply as people give up on the process because it’s too hard or unreliable.

Behellagh.1468:

Ohoni.6057:

if it’s pricey, i don’t think that is a problem; it is simply supply and demand. the same can be said for ANY item that is highly sought after but very very few supplies. Say Mini Karka, they don’t even do anything.

And I’ll say for the millionth time that “Supply and demand is NEVER an excuse for anything in a game where the developers are capable of adjusting both supply AND demand as they see fit.”

Devs can’t change demand for certain precursors, since they are tied to player preferred weapons. New recipes, collections can increase demand for some items but precursors are pretty much one trick ponies, a necessary step for a legendary.

Yes they can. They can change the usefulness of certain weapons or underwater play. Make a mace devastating………boom increase demand. Make torch skills OP….guess what..just increased demand. Make underwater play more rewarding/interesting/enjoyable….boom increase underwater precursor demand.

I’m certain he was referring to relative demand. Even if he wasn’t, the devs have little reason to change demand anyways. This isn’t another debate about wanting cheap precursors … clearly this thread demonstrates they exist.

hybrid.5027:

essjaybee.1283:

Rauderi.8706:

essjaybee.1283:

It is beyond debate that those who question the price of Precursors deserve naught but the severest Ridicule, as they are Entitled, they despise Hard Work, and they are undoubtedly Communists or Socialists (perhaps Both!). Therefore, it is the duty of the benevolent Rich to expose their Flawed logic. An Unpleasant task, perhaps, but those who have succeeded— through Skill, Cunning, and Superiority of Birth— to amass significant amounts of pixelated Wealth should view the Education of their lesser brethren not as a Burden, but rather as their God-Given Responsibility.

(How’d I do?)

Wow, for a moment, I hated you. Grats.
Reminds me of the faux-conversations I have with my ’bandmate.
/golfclap

;D

Much of this thread reads like a badly-written Gilded Age political tract (complete with Random Capitalizations for Emphasis), so I figured I’d just be a little more explicit about the philosophy on display here.

You’re batting 1,000 against all the strawmen out there.

It’s not a strawman if it’s accurate.

Re-read this thread and do a shot for every time you see the word “entitlement” or a reference to socialism. Or don’t, unless you want to spend the weekend in the ER.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

the quote of the dev was talking about players paying a fair price because they think that it is worth it not to do it themselves. This only applies when there is not an extremely limited supply, and when players can obtain the item by other means.

There are three methods to obtaining a precursor: random drops, the Mystic Forge, and buying it from the TP. I’ve gotten one through a random drop, if you are patient any player can get one just by playing the game. If you want to focus on it as a goal you can throw the appropriate type/level rares/exotics into the MF until you get it, the prices on the TP reflect the typical cost of the MF fuel, but you can reduce the cost by playing the game and collecting materials or tokens.

It has been demonstrated that Dusk sells on the TP at a rate of about once an hour, with mostly unique buyers and sellers. This means that there is a supply of Dusks coming from somewhere, and for the most part it is not just one or a handful of players controlling the market. Hundreds of players every week produce their own Dusks (not all of them sold, many are probably kept for personal use) and across all precursors there are thousands of new items generated every week.

The devs have access to a vast amount of information about the game, and can easily determine how many precursors are created, sold on the TP, forged into Legendaries, accumulated by speculators for future use, salvaged by players who don’t realize what they represent, etc.

If there truly was a problem with the process, it would be pretty obvious when the number of people forging/selling/buying precursors drops off sharply as people give up on the process because it’s too hard or unreliable.

The nature of random distribution doesn’t work that way.
The system functions on those who are lucky, and average. The losers are not a part of supply.

You got lucky, I can tell you most people haven’t got a precursor in two years from a monster. There is no guarantee except the market.

Ayrilana.1396:

No. You can continue to run the belief that players do not set demand and supply onbth TP but you’ll continue to be wrong. You’ve got your own opinion on how a game’s economy should run in your view which is along the lines of socialism. You then ignored peer reviewed topics and twisted them around to fit your beliefs. You didn’t like that player set supply and demand on the TP so you constructed a way to rationalize your opinion.

You’re also completely ignoring the type of economy that Anet is going for with this game. What you’re trying to do is similar to someone trying to force North Korea’s way of running their economy onto anyone that uses capitalism. They’re conflicting ideologies and do not go together.

I’ve said it before, you’d be happiest with a vendor based economy where players had no impact. That’s essentially what yoy’re asking for when you’re demanding Anet to dictate what supply and price levels should be.

The point was not that Anet controls supply and demand with an iron-fist (they have some control, but it is distanced overall).

The point is that Anet chose to design precursors in such a way that their demand is subject to a hugely skewed difference from item to item. Acquisition is based in layers of RNG – looting a precursor or RNG forging precursors from other RNG-dropped items (rares and exotics).

On top of that, supply stays consistently tiny overall because of % chances to acquire the items. It’s a lovely mixture of factors to cause absurdly differing sale prices and it’s not something they directly control, but it’s absolutely something that they chose to design such that it could very easily occur.

Whether they were completely aware of how it would play out is for them to know (I can’t read their minds). But you can’t deny that the current system of precursor acquisition practically begs for sale prices to have massive differences from weapon to weapon.

If you think it’s somehow strange to not design precursors that way, just look at ascended items. Much less skewed from set to set and concerning the difference in pricing that does occur, Anet admits in a sideways sort of way about why; the cloth set requires way more damask, which is related to silk and (if I recall) John saying once that what they did with silk was very intentional.

In short, no, of course, the economy isn’t ruled over by the devs with an iron-fist. We drive a ton of it with our own demand choices. But the converse is just naive; of course they have some control over it – it’s in how they set things like item acquisition, drop rates, etc. And there’s no particular reason why precursors can’t use a more specific system of acquisition – it’s just a matter of them choosing what it is.

phys.7689:

The nature of random distribution doesn’t work that way.
The system functions on those who are lucky, and average. The losers are not a part of supply.

You got lucky, I can tell you most people haven’t got a precursor in two years from a monster. There is no guarantee except the market.

That’s why precursors are tradeable instead of account bound. In practice, it’s not the best way to handle things, but that’s what they designed before the game launched and they’re stuck with it now.

There’s nothing special about my account. It has already been demonstrated by JS that Dusk sells at a rate of about one per hour, and nearly every sale within the 60-hour period he posted is a different seller and a different buyer. Every day, hundreds of accounts get lucky drops/forges and hundreds of accounts have accumulated enough gold to buy precursors from the lucky players. I believe mine sold in less than a day, probably a few hours.

By design, obtaining a Legendary weapon is a lengthy and expensive process. As a singular event that is critical to obtaining that Legendary (as opposed to an incremental requirement like 100% map completion or collecting stacks of materials), the precursor is also a lengthy and expensive process. Dedicated players are naturally going to seek the path of least resistance, and if it’s too easy to obtain the pieces they need, the game will be flooded with Legendaries and that is a situation the devs do not want.

So, in your search for a precursor, persistence, patience, and luck are rewarded. Crying “it’s not fair!” on the forums is not rewarded, nor should it be. Any additional routes to obtaining the precursor need to respect existing methods, if it is much harder then the devs work will be ignored, and if it is much easier then alters the game in ways they don’t want.

During the life of this thread, hundreds, if not thousands, of players have “gotten lucky” and obtained a precursor of some sort. Thousands more have saved up gold and exchanged their riches with some of those players to obtain the precursors they want. If an individual is not among them, he should examine the way he is playing and whether he is actually moving towards his goal, or if the Legendary really is his goal at all. Demanding the devs bend the game to his liking is simply not going to lead to a Legendary. Playing the game and working towards that goal will eventually lead to it.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

The nature of random distribution doesn’t work that way.
The system functions on those who are lucky, and average. The losers are not a part of supply.

You got lucky, I can tell you most people haven’t got a precursor in two years from a monster. There is no guarantee except the market.

That’s why precursors are tradeable instead of account bound. In practice, it’s not the best way to handle things, but that’s what they designed before the game launched and they’re stuck with it now.

There’s nothing special about my account. It has already been demonstrated by JS that Dusk sells at a rate of about one per hour, and nearly every sale within the 60-hour period he posted is a different seller and a different buyer. Every day, hundreds of accounts get lucky drops/forges and hundreds of accounts have accumulated enough gold to buy precursors from the lucky players. I believe mine sold in less than a day, probably a few hours.

By design, obtaining a Legendary weapon is a lengthy and expensive process. As a singular event that is critical to obtaining that Legendary (as opposed to an incremental requirement like 100% map completion or collecting stacks of materials), the precursor is also a lengthy and expensive process. Dedicated players are naturally going to seek the path of least resistance, and if it’s too easy to obtain the pieces they need, the game will be flooded with Legendaries and that is a situation the devs do not want.

So, in your search for a precursor, persistence, patience, and luck are rewarded. Crying “it’s not fair!” on the forums is not rewarded, nor should it be. Any additional routes to obtaining the precursor need to respect existing methods, if it is much harder then the devs work will be ignored, and if it is much easier then alters the game in ways they don’t want.

During the life of this thread, hundreds, if not thousands, of players have “gotten lucky” and obtained a precursor of some sort. Thousands more have saved up gold and exchanged their riches with some of those players to obtain the precursors they want. If an individual is not among them, he should examine the way he is playing and whether he is actually moving towards his goal, or if the Legendary really is his goal at all. Demanding the devs bend the game to his liking is simply not going to lead to a Legendary. Playing the game and working towards that goal will eventually lead to it.

The info you’re mentioning only tells about the specific 3 days. It is not automatically valid for the rest of the game’s 2+ years.

Essence Snow.3194:

The info you’re mentioning only tells about the specific 3 days. It is not automatically valid for the rest of the game’s 2+ years.

The data was simply grabbed at the time of posting, it wasn’t cherry-picked and there is no reason to think that it was not a typical example of TP transactions.

I have two hands, and the majority of people I’ve met have two hands. I haven’t met all seven billion or so humans on the planet, but from my experience it’s reasonable to conclude that the majority of people have two hands. Exceptions exist, but when I meet a person with one hand I don’t conclude that everyone I haven’t met yet has only one hand.

tolunart.2095:

Essence Snow.3194:

The info you’re mentioning only tells about the specific 3 days. It is not automatically valid for the rest of the game’s 2+ years.

The data was simply grabbed at the time of posting, it wasn’t cherry-picked and there is no reason to think that it was not a typical example of TP transactions.

I have two hands, and the majority of people I’ve met have two hands. I haven’t met all seven billion or so humans on the planet, but from my experience it’s reasonable to conclude that the majority of people have two hands. Exceptions exist, but when I meet a person with one hand I don’t conclude that everyone I haven’t met yet has only one hand.

Way too different to be comparative. One has countless possibilities the other only has 3.

Assuming that the 1 sample is typical is like assuming that most cars must be white b/c the one gas station you saw on a Tuesday last month had mostly white cars there.

Is it a possibility? Ofc it is, but should we consider more data before claiming these things as fact? Without question we should.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

The nature of random distribution doesn’t work that way.
The system functions on those who are lucky, and average. The losers are not a part of supply.

You got lucky, I can tell you most people haven’t got a precursor in two years from a monster. There is no guarantee except the market.

That’s why precursors are tradeable instead of account bound. In practice, it’s not the best way to handle things, but that’s what they designed before the game launched and they’re stuck with it now.

There’s nothing special about my account. It has already been demonstrated by JS that Dusk sells at a rate of about one per hour, and nearly every sale within the 60-hour period he posted is a different seller and a different buyer. Every day, hundreds of accounts get lucky drops/forges and hundreds of accounts have accumulated enough gold to buy precursors from the lucky players. I believe mine sold in less than a day, probably a few hours.

By design, obtaining a Legendary weapon is a lengthy and expensive process. As a singular event that is critical to obtaining that Legendary (as opposed to an incremental requirement like 100% map completion or collecting stacks of materials), the precursor is also a lengthy and expensive process. Dedicated players are naturally going to seek the path of least resistance, and if it’s too easy to obtain the pieces they need, the game will be flooded with Legendaries and that is a situation the devs do not want.

So, in your search for a precursor, persistence, patience, and luck are rewarded. Crying “it’s not fair!” on the forums is not rewarded, nor should it be. Any additional routes to obtaining the precursor need to respect existing methods, if it is much harder then the devs work will be ignored, and if it is much easier then alters the game in ways they don’t want.

During the life of this thread, hundreds, if not thousands, of players have “gotten lucky” and obtained a precursor of some sort. Thousands more have saved up gold and exchanged their riches with some of those players to obtain the precursors they want. If an individual is not among them, he should examine the way he is playing and whether he is actually moving towards his goal, or if the Legendary really is his goal at all. Demanding the devs bend the game to his liking is simply not going to lead to a Legendary. Playing the game and working towards that goal will eventually lead to it.

Not really, playing the game may lead to it. Neither the forge nor the random drop is something that is guaranteed to happen. The only one you can work towards is buying it on the TP, which means you have to compete with other people who want the item, and how much money they earn.
Many playstyles are not competitive in terms of earning.

Regardless to all that, the point I was getting at, is that things get warped when the supply is low, and the demand is high with precursors. People are not saying, hey i dont want to farm that(do the work for it) they are saying i dont believe in luck/gambling. Aka, for many players there is only one choice. And that choice is to compete at earning gold.

No. You can continue to run the belief that players do not set demand and supply onbth TP but you’ll continue to be wrong.

I’ll only become wrong when ANet is no longer determining the relative worth of items.

Again, you can like the way this economy is set up and argue that it shouldn’t be changed, but don’t argue that “supply and demand” is an explanation for the situation, because ANet continues to control both far more than any player does.

I’ve said it before, you’d be happiest with a vendor based economy where players had no impact. That’s essentially what yoy’re asking for when you’re demanding Anet to dictate what supply and price levels should be.

I’m not saying that they should, I’m pointing out that they already do, and always have, just not very well.

Ehh, you mean to say, make Precursors drop like rain, like porous bone or whatever so common? Would you like everyone runs with legendary? Is that what Anet and the majority of the playerbase wants? And if Anet or the majority likes it that way, where is the data that says so?

This is what is known as a “straw man argument.”

Why would a player even want a legendary/precursor in the first place? For sure, it’s not JUST the stats. For skin? I have seen people say it looks ugly, so it boils down to preference.

Why people would want one? That’s up to them. If they don’t want one certainly nobody should force them to take it. But if they do want one, they should have methods of getting it that are a bit more reasonable than the currently available systems. Not “dropping like rain,” not “no effort,” but with some effort, with the effort of playing the game seriously for a year or more, you should be able to earn one in a method that does not involve piling up stacks of gold.

Again, my example, other than the precursor, is the Mini Karka. It’s not even useful, so you like it to drop like rain too?

Again, not like rain, but if the demand is there then they could certainly up supply accordingly. Everyone who wants one should be able to get one, not for free, not effortlessly, but without breaking the bank.

Devs can’t change demand for certain precursors, since they are tied to player preferred weapons.

Sure they can. “Player preferred weapons” is largely in ANet’s control too, while players may have a sentimental attachment to being an archer or a swordsman, there are also significant gameplay strengths and weaknesses to each that make them under or overplayed. Greatswords, for example, are very strong weapons in four different classes. Torches are relatively useless in all of them.

I really like the design of Kudzu, but never would have equipped it before the Ranger changes which made longbow highly viable. And guess what, the price of the precursor jumped about 100-200g when they announced the Ranger changes. If they made tweaks that made Torch Rangers, Mesmers, and Guardians dominant in both PvP and PvE, you’d see the price of Rodgort’s Flame easily double within the week. Incoming Supply wouldn’t be changing, that’s demand being changed, even though the weapon has been available for two years now.

Then of course there are the weapons where the Legendary effects were considered underwhelming, and ANet specifically went in and made them more interesting. What is that if not an attempt to directly increase demand for the item? It is certainly within their power to tweak the desirability of any weapon specifically, and also of any similar weapons, as they see fit.

There are three methods to obtaining a precursor: random drops, the Mystic Forge, and buying it from the TP.

The Forge is still random, just with slightly better odds (at a higher buy-in) than enemy drops. And I’ve been playing steadily for two years now and never had a single Pre drop, not even a “junk” one. I know that it happens, but it’s not a reasonable method. It’s like saying you can get rich from playing the lottery, possible, but not practical.

Re-read this thread and do a shot for every time you see the word “entitlement” or a reference to socialism. Or don’t, unless you want to spend the weekend in the ER.

Add “supply and demand” and you’d be in a coma.

but that’s what they designed before the game launched and they’re stuck with it now.

Unless they decided to change it, in which case they could.

Those are the underwater ones.

Nobody makes them.

There’s no proper underwater combat, no maps completely underwater with anything fun or profitable to do there, very few meta-events completely underwater, no proper underwater support, not all skills have underwater counterparts, the “swim down” key which is absolutely a necessity to properly play underwater is not bound by default, and so people end up disliked underwater combat, and avoid being underwater as much as possible.

As a result, very few people will even bother going for the underwater legendaries, and very few people wants the precursors, and their price stays down.

As for Rodgort, it requires a ludicrous amount of destroyer and molten lodestones. And people will rather use that for Volcanus and the destroyer set (specially now that there’s collections and it may get a collection one day), and only 3 professions use torch, and none matches Rodgort’s “red flame” theme, so few would be interested in making it.

To make rodgort worthwhile, elementalist should be able to equip torches, preferably including skills with names such as “Obsidian Flame” “Mark of Rodgort” and “Rodgort’s invocation”.

Even better if it was not as offhand, but as main hand. Using the torch as the handle of a flaming sword with a fiery blade that is generated when the torch is unsheathed, kind of like light sabers. Then the autoattacks would be 4 3-skill chains that deal a condition on the third hit, starting with “Flame Sword”, “Frostfire Edge”, “Plasma Brand” and “Obsidian Blade”

Someone makes them so your whole post seems irrelevant.

The Supply vs Demand concept may sound simple to many non-business minded players, but it’s more complicated than just “1,000 players want Item A when there’s only 10 available”. Many factors play a role in determining demand for an item. This is where behavior research comes in to determine how to create more demand. Making an item rare may increase demand on some items, but the same strategy isn’t a “one size fits all” solution.

Anet, as with any company, can help to influence demand. They cannot create it outright. Just as they can influence value, but not determine it. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise doesn’t understand how businesses work.

Each person sees an item differently. Just because one player feels Dusk is overpriced, doesn’t mean that Anet should alter the entire economy to make that one player happy. Some items were meant to be rare. In the same breath, some items that were meant to be rare get a drop buff. Monocles and Mini Monkey Kings were super rare, and had a value that matched the rarity and demand. Anet comes in and buffs the drop rates with insane amounts, thus making the item less valuable. Yes they have the power to increase Supply, but it’s not something they should do with Precursors.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The Supply vs Demand concept may sound simple to many non-business minded players, but it’s more complicated than just “1,000 players want Item A when there’s only 10 available”. Many factors play a role in determining demand for an item. This is where behavior research comes in to determine how to create more demand. Making an item rare may increase demand on some items, but the same strategy isn’t a “one size fits all” solution.

Anet, as with any company, can help to influence demand. They cannot create it outright. Just as they can influence value, but not determine it. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise doesn’t understand how businesses work.

Each person sees an item differently. Just because one player feels Dusk is overpriced, doesn’t mean that Anet should alter the entire economy to make that one player happy. Some items were meant to be rare. In the same breath, some items that were meant to be rare get a drop buff. Monocles and Mini Monkey Kings were super rare, and had a value that matched the rarity and demand. Anet comes in and buffs the drop rates with insane amounts, thus making the item less valuable. Yes they have the power to increase Supply, but it’s not something they should do with Precursors.

I like how your pedantic post about supply and demand concludes in straight up opinion.

Also, ascended crafting. Cough. Pricey to acquire and much less subject to supply&demand cost disparity. In fact, the disparity is almost entirely caused by the supply of silk and the disparate amount needed for each armor class (e.g. very little influence from players themselves).

For someone who is talking about how much goes into supply and demand, you seem to be ignoring how simple it is to make a system that isn’t so easily skewed in cost. It’s not about Anet making precursors easy to acquire. It’s about them making the cost to acquire them relatively balanced, instead of letting them be completely subject to the player market.

I see your business economy and raise you game design.

Hope you’re not bluffing.

Labjax.2465:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The Supply vs Demand concept may sound simple to many non-business minded players, but it’s more complicated than just “1,000 players want Item A when there’s only 10 available”. Many factors play a role in determining demand for an item. This is where behavior research comes in to determine how to create more demand. Making an item rare may increase demand on some items, but the same strategy isn’t a “one size fits all” solution.

Anet, as with any company, can help to influence demand. They cannot create it outright. Just as they can influence value, but not determine it. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise doesn’t understand how businesses work.

Each person sees an item differently. Just because one player feels Dusk is overpriced, doesn’t mean that Anet should alter the entire economy to make that one player happy. Some items were meant to be rare. In the same breath, some items that were meant to be rare get a drop buff. Monocles and Mini Monkey Kings were super rare, and had a value that matched the rarity and demand. Anet comes in and buffs the drop rates with insane amounts, thus making the item less valuable. Yes they have the power to increase Supply, but it’s not something they should do with Precursors.

I like how your pedantic post about supply and demand concludes in straight up opinion.

Also, ascended crafting. Cough. Pricey to acquire and much less subject to supply&demand cost disparity. In fact, the disparity is almost entirely caused by the supply of silk and the disparate amount needed for each armor class (e.g. very little influence from players themselves).

For someone who is talking about how much goes into supply and demand, you seem to be ignoring how simple it is to make a system that isn’t so easily skewed in cost. It’s not about Anet making precursors easy to acquire. It’s about them making the cost to acquire them relatively balanced, instead of letting them be completely subject to the player market.

I see your business economy and raise you game design.

Hope you’re not bluffing.

I’ll go all in with common sense.

Everything in the TP economy is interconnected. Sorta like how the real world works.

• Natural disaster in Asia caused hard drive manufacturing output to stop, thus leading to an increase in price to available hard drives, which lead to increase priced in PCs and/or downgraded specs to maintain price points.

• Large car manufacturer on the verge of closing due to a bad economy, putting panic on smaller suppliers who provide key parts to the vehicles. If the car manufacturer goes out of business, they take all the smaller suppliers with them.

• Dusk availability increased, leading to a mad rush to collect necessary mats from the TP. Dusk gets cheaper, but all T6 mats triple in value. Market panics, and John goes home early with a headache.

If Anet wants to provide an alternate method to get Precursors, that’s fine. But the problem here is also balancing what happens after such a mechanic is released. Some players don’t think beyond the “make it easier to get” argument.

Side note – to truly control the costs of high demanded items, you would need to eliminate them as drops, and just sell them for Gems in the Gem Store. 8k Gems sounds like a good price point.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Labjax.2465:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The Supply vs Demand concept may sound simple to many non-business minded players, but it’s more complicated than just “1,000 players want Item A when there’s only 10 available”. Many factors play a role in determining demand for an item. This is where behavior research comes in to determine how to create more demand. Making an item rare may increase demand on some items, but the same strategy isn’t a “one size fits all” solution.

Anet, as with any company, can help to influence demand. They cannot create it outright. Just as they can influence value, but not determine it. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise doesn’t understand how businesses work.

Each person sees an item differently. Just because one player feels Dusk is overpriced, doesn’t mean that Anet should alter the entire economy to make that one player happy. Some items were meant to be rare. In the same breath, some items that were meant to be rare get a drop buff. Monocles and Mini Monkey Kings were super rare, and had a value that matched the rarity and demand. Anet comes in and buffs the drop rates with insane amounts, thus making the item less valuable. Yes they have the power to increase Supply, but it’s not something they should do with Precursors.

I like how your pedantic post about supply and demand concludes in straight up opinion.

Also, ascended crafting. Cough. Pricey to acquire and much less subject to supply&demand cost disparity. In fact, the disparity is almost entirely caused by the supply of silk and the disparate amount needed for each armor class (e.g. very little influence from players themselves).

For someone who is talking about how much goes into supply and demand, you seem to be ignoring how simple it is to make a system that isn’t so easily skewed in cost. It’s not about Anet making precursors easy to acquire. It’s about them making the cost to acquire them relatively balanced, instead of letting them be completely subject to the player market.

I see your business economy and raise you game design.

Hope you’re not bluffing.

I’ll go all in with common sense.

Everything in the TP economy is interconnected. Sorta like how the real world works.

• Natural disaster in Asia caused hard drive manufacturing output to stop, thus leading to an increase in price to available hard drives, which lead to increase priced in PCs and/or downgraded specs to maintain price points.

• Large car manufacturer on the verge of closing due to a bad economy, putting panic on smaller suppliers who provide key parts to the vehicles. If the car manufacturer goes out of business, they take all the smaller suppliers with them.

• Dusk availability increased, leading to a mad rush to collect necessary mats from the TP. Dusk gets cheaper, but all T6 mats triple in value. Market panics, and John goes home early with a headache.

If Anet wants to provide an alternate method to get Precursors, that’s fine. But the problem here is also balancing what happens after such a mechanic is released. Some players don’t think beyond the “make it easier to get” argument.

Side note – to truly control the costs of high demanded items, you would need to eliminate them as drops, and just sell them for Gems in the Gem Store. 8k Gems sounds like a good price point.

Sounds like you feel Entitled to keep the status quo.

Labjax.2465:

I see your business economy and raise you game design.

Game design doesn’t dictate it should rain endgame loot on players. In iether instance of economy or design, there isn’t a case to push for more accessible precursors, especially considering the long and short term consequences on the economy.

Besides, the whole point of this thread is that a legendary weapon is VERY accessible. There isn’t a cost barrier to it; it’s simply a matter of doing the work.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ll go all in with common sense.

Everything in the TP economy is interconnected. Sorta like how the real world works.

• Natural disaster in Asia caused hard drive manufacturing output to stop, thus leading to an increase in price to available hard drives, which lead to increase priced in PCs and/or downgraded specs to maintain price points.

• Large car manufacturer on the verge of closing due to a bad economy, putting panic on smaller suppliers who provide key parts to the vehicles. If the car manufacturer goes out of business, they take all the smaller suppliers with them.

• Dusk availability increased, leading to a mad rush to collect necessary mats from the TP. Dusk gets cheaper, but all T6 mats triple in value. Market panics, and John goes home early with a headache.

If Anet wants to provide an alternate method to get Precursors, that’s fine. But the problem here is also balancing what happens after such a mechanic is released. Some players don’t think beyond the “make it easier to get” argument.

Side note – to truly control the costs of high demanded items, you would need to eliminate them as drops, and just sell them for Gems in the Gem Store. 8k Gems sounds like a good price point.

Common sense. Not bad.

I have why do you think they’re taking so long to design an alternative system in my hand though, so I think that wins. Sorry.

Of course when I talk about an alternative, I am setting aside the effects that it will have on the economy to remove precursors as a rare sink, exotic sink, and so on. Those are important effects and need to be considered. But I’m not the one with monstrous excel spreadsheets of data in front of me either.

There is a difference between “what is and is not favorable game design,” and “how best to go about implementing it smoothly.” I’m not going into detail on the latter because I lack a metric ton of information that would be necessary to calculate it all out. Not to mention the raw economic experience that someone like John has (that might help too).

But it doesn’t change the fact that what I’m referring to is a perfectly strong way to make precursors available, in principle.

As for your thing about a mad rush, I call pure speculation. Would there be something of a mad rush if precursors had a more clear and linear path to acquire them? Well, probably. It’s not that far-fetched a thing to assume. But you are also assuming that the market is incapable of balancing itself out after the fact.

And please, remove the trick straw-man card from your hand. It’s rather appaling. I have already stated numerous times that what myself and many others are asking for is a system that will ultimately mean close-to-equal cost for the acquisition of a precursor. What that price ends up being is markedly less important and quite beside the point.

Essence Snow.3194:

Sounds like you feel Entitled to keep the status quo.

The status quo works just fine, so why would you want to change it to make it worse? Proof everything is working as intended is in the pictures I posted in this thread. If you want something valuable and in high demand, you pay the prices. You’re not Entitled to getting it cheaper or for free just because you desire it more than other players. If you want a cheap Precursor, you don’t have to look very far.

Labjax.2465:

What that price ends up being is markedly less important and quite beside the point.

This is why we’ll never see eye to eye. Price is more important than everything else. Price of the Precursor, price of the T6 mats, price of the T5 like Large Bones or Mithril, etc. You can only think about the end result. I’m thinking of the consequences to the different steps of the journey to your end result. In other words, the price of your happiness does not equal the price of a collapsed economy.

Obtena.7952:

Game design doesn’t dictate it should rain endgame loot on players.

Straw-man.

Obtena.7952:

In iether instance of economy or design, there isn’t a case to push for more accessible precursors, especially considering the long and short term consequences on the economy.

Why not?

Obtena.7952:

Besides, the whole point of this thread is that a legendary weapon is VERY accessible. There isn’t a cost barrier to it; it’s simply a matter of doing the work.

Factually inaccurate, unless you’re going for a very strange definition of cost and accessibility.

The facts are:

A few different types of precursors (most of them rather unpopular) are relatively cheap to acquire in relation to the rest of the precursors. And in fact, it’s easy to see that they are relatively cheap precisely because most people don’t want them.
There is a cost barrier. (In what world does cost mean something that doesn’t involve work/effort expenditure of some kind?)

Labjax.2465:

Obtena.7952:

Besides, the whole point of this thread is that a legendary weapon is VERY accessible. There isn’t a cost barrier to it; it’s simply a matter of doing the work.

Factually inaccurate, unless you’re going for a very strange definition of cost and accessibility.

The facts are:

A few different types of precursors (most of them rather unpopular) are relatively cheap to acquire in relation to the rest of the precursors. And in fact, it’s easy to see that they are relatively cheap precisely because most people don’t want them.
There is a cost barrier. (In what world does cost mean something that doesn’t involve work/effort expenditure of some kind?)

There’s only a cost barrier if you decide to buy every required mat from the TP. Otherwise, you can do some good, old fashioned hard work by farming for all items.

Also, unpopular Precursors have the same drop rates as popular Precursors. How could they not? They’re all Precursors. The main difference here is Supply and Demand.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

This is why we’ll never see eye to eye. Price is more important than everything else. Price of the Precursor, price of the T6 mats, price of the T5 like Large Bones or Mithril, etc. You can only think about the end result. I’m thinking of the consequences to the different steps of the journey to your end result. In other words, the price of your happiness does not equal the price of a collapsed economy.

That’s quite the alarmist statement, talking about a collapsed economy. See, the difference between you and me is I’m leaving the economic details to the guy who has both the expertise and (most importantly) tons of information that none of us have access to.

You can be concerned all you want, but your detailed analysis will forever be limited by the information that you don’t have and never will have because you’re not an employee at Anet. I’m just taking it one step further and saying, “Not worth the effort, since my information is so limited.”

In other words, I’m perfectly capable of thinking about the consequences of each step and I often do in other aspects of game design. It’s just that this is one area where having access to data on a large scale is rather important to getting detailed about design choices.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

There’s only a cost barrier if you decide to buy every required mat from the TP. Otherwise, you can do some good, old fashioned hard work by farming for all items.

Also, unpopular Precursors have the same drop rates as popular Precursors. How could they not? They’re all Precursors. The main difference here is Supply and Demand.

1st paragraph: See “(In what world does cost mean something that doesn’t involve work/effort expenditure of some kind?)”

2nd paragraph: Um, duh? Exactly no one is contesting that point.

Labjax.2465:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Also, unpopular Precursors have the same drop rates as popular Precursors. How could they not? They’re all Precursors. The main difference here is Supply and Demand.

2nd paragraph: Um, duh? Exactly no one is contesting that point.

This basically goes back to the whole point of this thread. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Precursors in this game. Nothing wrong with the RNG to get them, and nothing wrong with the prices they demand. So if it ain’t broke, no need to fix it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Labjax.2465:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Also, unpopular Precursors have the same drop rates as popular Precursors. How could they not? They’re all Precursors. The main difference here is Supply and Demand.

2nd paragraph: Um, duh? Exactly no one is contesting that point.

This basically goes back to the whole point of this thread. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Precursors in this game. Nothing wrong with the RNG to get them, and nothing wrong with the prices they demand. So if it ain’t broke, no need to fix it.

What? How did you extrapolate that from what I said? No one is contesting that “unpopular Precursors have the same drop rates as popular Precursors.” Or that “the main difference here is Supply and Demand.”

That doesn’t mean there’s nothing wrong with the system.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Labjax.2465:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Also, unpopular Precursors have the same drop rates as popular Precursors. How could they not? They’re all Precursors. The main difference here is Supply and Demand.

2nd paragraph: Um, duh? Exactly no one is contesting that point.

This basically goes back to the whole point of this thread. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Precursors in this game. Nothing wrong with the RNG to get them, and nothing wrong with the prices they demand. So if it ain’t broke, no need to fix it.

problem has little to do with the price of the cheapest precursors, and more to do with the demand vs supply of the more expensive ones. Your example actually highlights how precursors are supplied in a way that is inconsistent and causes an unstable price.

Anet, as with any company, can help to influence demand. They cannot create it outright. Just as they can influence value, but not determine it. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise doesn’t understand how businesses work.

Sure, but the “influence” they have is massively higher than any player has over either supply or demand for the item, and far more than most real-life companies, including Apple, could even DREAM of having.

I mean, Anet can infinitely increase supply on anything if they so choose, or cut off supply entirely, or anywhere in between. Obviously they aim for somewhere in between, and players usually have some influence over how much they deliberately seek out a given item type, but if ANet wants the supply of an item to be higher, then they can just cause the [things players are already doing] to start rewarding that type of item, and if they wanted to reduce supply, they could just cause the existing methods to drop less of that thing, or in some cases none at all.

Players can take the existing system and cause it to generate more or less of an item than casual play would produce, but ANet can completely flip the script at their whims.

Likewise on demand, a player can hype up an item, slightly increasing demand, but for the most part players have no influence on demand. ANet, on the other hand, can make items considerably more or less useful to have, or more or less interesting, as they see fit. You’re free to argue “but Ohoni, players have the choice to not desire a sword that does 5% more damage than other existing swords,” but this is a foolish position to take, it’s like arguing that people don’t need water, they can choose to dehydrate to death.

At the end of the day, ANet controls the rules, and they can always make items more or less desirable. This doesn’t mean that they always get it right, they are only human themselves and can always underestimate how much players will like an item or how much they might not care, but these are not ballistic projectiles, if they guess wrong and demand is higher/lower than they had assumed, they can always make tweaks to either the supply or demand side to balance it out.

If for example a weapon’s stats make it far more desirable than others, and they feel this is a bad state, then they can either change its stats to make it less desirable, change the usefulness of those stats to make other stat combos more desirable, or just accept that everyone loves that stat combo and make the supply so available that everyone who wants one can get one.

If Anet wants to provide an alternate method to get Precursors, that’s fine. But the problem here is also balancing what happens after such a mechanic is released. Some players don’t think beyond the “make it easier to get” argument.

If increasing the availability of Precursors causes certain elements of the economy to implode, then it’s a bubble correction that needs to take place. It might not be pretty, but it should still happen. Precursor availability is more important than the trading post.

I have why do you think they’re taking so long to design an alternative system in my hand though, so I think that wins. Sorry.

Because ANet takes forever to do anything? If this game weren’t so fun people would complain more about how glacially slowly the game actually accomplishes anything. I’ve also been playing Marvel Heroes lately and they add a new class, and completely overhaul two others, every couple weeks. Just because ANet doesn’t do something for a few years doesn’t mean they don’t want to, or that it wouldn’t be easy to do, it just means they’re ANet, and ANet moves in Tortoise-years.