Precursors selling for 65 Gold on TP!
Even if it became impossible to buy T6 mats on the TP, it would still be easier to farm for those than to get a high-end Precursor at current prices.
How do you figure that?
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Most? Perhaps you should look at the actual items that you need before making that claim and using it as an argument.
I have, and it remains true.
How do you figure that?
Because it’s easier to farm for the non-Pre ingredients of a high-demand Legendary than it is to farm for the pre, I don’t know how to explain it better than that. Why does this confuse you?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Most? Perhaps you should look at the actual items that you need before making that claim and using it as an argument.
I have, and it remains true.
How do you figure that?
Because it’s easier to farm for the non-Pre ingredients of a high-demand Legendary than it is to farm for the pre, I don’t know how to explain it better than that. Why does this confuse you?
- Gift of Fortune involves 10 items that can be purchased off the TP and 2 that cannot.
- Gift of Mastery involves 4 items than cannot be bought off the TP.
- Legendary Gift involves 8 items that can be purchased off the TP and 2 that cannot.
- Precursors can be bought off the TP.
So let’s see…
We have 22 items that can be purchased off the TP and 8 that cannot. Yep! Those that cannot are definitely in the majority since 8 is most definitely larger than 22. I’m so foolish to have thought otherwise.
I’m beginning to think that you want changes for things that you have no idea about. It kind of puts a lot of your arguments into perspective and why you were making them.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
Most? Perhaps you should look at the actual items that you need before making that claim and using it as an argument.
I have, and it remains true.
How do you figure that?
Because it’s easier to farm for the non-Pre ingredients of a high-demand Legendary than it is to farm for the pre, I don’t know how to explain it better than that. Why does this confuse you?
Why? because it’s easier to make money that it is to farm targetted materials … money comes from doing anything AND selling materials you don’t need, which you would have in way more abundance than the equivalent value of targetted ones you are after.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Most? Perhaps you should look at the actual items that you need before making that claim and using it as an argument.
I have, and it remains true.
How do you figure that?
Because it’s easier to farm for the non-Pre ingredients of a high-demand Legendary than it is to farm for the pre, I don’t know how to explain it better than that. Why does this confuse you?
Why? because it’s easier to make money that it is to farm targetted materials … money comes from doing anything AND selling materials you don’t need, which you would have in way more abundance than the targetted ones you are after.
its kind of illogical that the cheapest way that something comes in to the world is not by targeting it.
No one in the real world could run a business other than merchanting if this was the case.
Illogical or not, it’s the way it works. This is not debatable. Anyone that understands how players are rewarded in this game would not make such a remark. The random nature of loot distribution ensures that there are very few opportunities in this game to target and farm a specific material or specific level of material. Even in the instances where their is a target for specific mats, that doesn’t change the fact that it is not more efficient to farm them than it is to farm gold and buy them.
Should it be different? Maybe … that’s a different thread though.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Illogical or not, it’s the way it works. This is not debatable. Anyone that understands how players are rewarded in this game would not make such a remark. The random nature of loot distribution ensures that there are very few opportunities in this game to target and farm a specific material or specific level of material. Even in the instances where their is a target for specific mats, that doesn’t change the fact that it is not more efficient to farm them than it is to farm gold and buy them.
Should it be different? Maybe … that’s a different thread though.
And the natural result of a design that prioritizes non targeted rewards, is quantity over quality approach to obtaining things, and very difficult to balance supply systems.
unfortunately this does have something to do with precursor prices, because part of the reason precursors price/method of obtaining them is so grindy is to act as a sink for the overproduction of items withing the game. That overproduction is primarily a result of a quantity is the only way to get ahead method for obtaining virtually any item.
Which leads players to produce even more crap, which then goes down in value, which they then need to farm more crap. viscous cycle.
(edited by phys.7689)
We have 22 items that can be purchased off the TP and 8 that cannot. Yep! Those that cannot are definitely in the majority since 8 is most definitely larger than 22. I’m so foolish to have thought otherwise.
Again, it’s not about raw quantity, it’s about quality. The 8 that cannot take a great more effort to accumulate than the 22 that can be bought, even assuming that you do not just buy the 22. I mean, in the process of getting World Completion and Rank 25 in WvW you should get a large number of the mats needed as a freebie side effect.
Even in the instances where their is a target for specific mats, that doesn’t change the fact that it is not more efficient to farm them than it is to farm gold and buy them.
Well, remember the context of this discussion. We’re discussing these items in the framework that the economy had imploded, and apparently caused the market prices of these items to skyrocket for whatever reason. So at this point, they likely would be easier to farm than to buy, but that’s ok because they are farmable. By the time I had enough gold to even think about getting a Legendary, I already just had lying around all the T6 mats I would need, aside from a couple types where I’d spent mine on Ascended backpacks.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
The context of this discussion started with stating that not all precursors are priced out of the range of a fair chunk of players who play casually. Of course the precursors that aren’t are simply unpopular as weapons or only useful in an underutilized aspect of the game and therefore spending what’s required to promote them to legendary status isn’t seen as worthwhile.
But someone decide to hijack this thread into their own personal rant about the unfairness of market forces and reward methods of the game and simply can’t help but post this argument over and over and over again until they have, and I’m guessing here, a third of 680+ posts in this thread.
Point made. If you wish to chime in on rewards go to the RNG discussion thread.
Edit: But of course you are already there.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
The context of this discussion started with stating that not all precursors are priced out of the range of a fair chunk of players who play casually. Of course the precursors that aren’t are simply unpopular as weapons or only useful in an underutilized aspect of the game and therefore spending what’s required to promote them to legendary status isn’t seen as worthwhile.
But someone decide to hijack this thread into their own personal rant about the unfairness of market forces and reward methods of the game and simply can’t help but post this argument over and over and over again until they have, and I’m guessing here, a third of 680+ posts in this thread.
Point made. If you wish to chime in on rewards go to the RNG discussion thread.
Edit: But of course you are already there.
i know you dont like it, but essentially the point of the initial post was, stop complaining about precursors being overpriced, you can get these ones instead! The ones people want are meant to be out of your reach.
Which essentially brings in the whole, should high demand precursors be out of reach or not discussion. This thread was always meant to incite this type of debate. Penguin just chose to frame it in a way that diminishes one side.
We have 22 items that can be purchased off the TP and 8 that cannot. Yep! Those that cannot are definitely in the majority since 8 is most definitely larger than 22. I’m so foolish to have thought otherwise.
Again, it’s not about raw quantity, it’s about quality. The 8 that cannot take a great more effort to accumulate than the 22 that can be bought, even assuming that you do not just buy the 22. I mean, in the process of getting World Completion and Rank 25 in WvW you should get a large number of the mats needed as a freebie side effect.
You were talking about quantity, not quality. We’ll go ahead and assume that you were initially wrong and this is an entirely new argument.
The best farms usually net you around 10G an hour. The average legendary (that people want) costs around 2,700 gold to craft. That’s roughly 270 hours to farm the gold to get the legendary that you want.
So you’re telling me that it takes more than 270 hours to do world completion and farm EotM for badges and 1 million karma?
Yes, you can get those purchasable items while farming karma and badges. However the reverse is just as true as well. As someone who has done world completion numerous times as well as farmed EotM, you don’t get that many items that you need for the legendaries.
There’s also the fact that EotM is the best way to level quickly outside of using consumables or crafting. You’ll easily have enough badges and at least half the karma by the time you’ve reached level 80. You can also level to 80 by doing world completion.
i know you dont like it, but essentially the point of the initial post was, stop complaining about precursors being overpriced, you can get these ones instead! The ones people want are meant to be out of your reach.
Which essentially brings in the whole, should high demand precursors be out of reach or not discussion. This thread was always meant to incite this type of debate. Penguin just chose to frame it in a way that diminishes one side.
High demand precursors are only expensive if you buy them. All of the ones that are for sale came from somewhere, and every single player in the game has the exact same ability to make them appear out of thin air.
It isn’t a very fun, predictable, or rewarding process, but even the poorest player in the game can acquire the most expensive precursor for no gold.
Using the TP is a shortcut. As such, it carries a hefty premium. That premium goes up if there are players with more money than you who want that convenience more than you do.
This means that you’ve got three options:
1. Save up until you can outspend the other offers.
2. Grind out/luck into a precursor of your own.
3. Buy a less demanded precursor so that you can check off the “legendary” box.
High demand precursors are not out of reach, they are just difficult to reach because of their high demand.
Server: Devona’s Rest
I still don’t understand what the problem is when you can use the mystic forge to get the specific precursor you want. Just because Dawn is behind a RNG wall doesn’t mean you cant get one. Just keep plugging away the rares and exos to get it.
I still don’t understand what the problem is when you can use the mystic forge to get the specific precursor you want. Just because Dawn is behind a RNG wall doesn’t mean you cant get one. Just keep plugging away the rares and exos to get it.
lol you guys.
random means its possible that you will never get it. It isnt assured that you will succeed.
not everyone falls withing the average part of the distribution.
2% of people who attempt it with 1/900 chance, would end up having to try 3400 times. at .59 gold a rare, at 3 per attempt, thats 5884 gold.
1% of people, 3850 attempts, 6865 gold.
some poor smuck, mister 1/1000 people? 5700 attempts 10164gold.
could someone be this unlucky? well if the random is working according to the rules of random, most assuredly he would exist, if people didnt quit before then.
and thats not even the mr 1/10000 chance.
so yeah, its not a simple matter of just grinding it out. The nature of chance is that if you are unlucky, you will be screwed.
(edited by phys.7689)
I still don’t understand what the problem is when you can use the mystic forge to get the specific precursor you want. Just because Dawn is behind a RNG wall doesn’t mean you cant get one. Just keep plugging away the rares and exos to get it.
lol you guys.
I know, right? It’s not like RNG is considered fair and balanced™ or anything:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
I still don’t understand what the problem is when you can use the mystic forge to get the specific precursor you want. Just because Dawn is behind a RNG wall doesn’t mean you cant get one. Just keep plugging away the rares and exos to get it.
lol you guys.
It’s true. It’s just you don’t like the RNG factor about it which means that a small percentage may find themselves outliers on the wrong end.
You were talking about quantity, not quality. We’ll go ahead and assume that you were initially wrong and this is an entirely new argument.
/sigh, you misunderstanding my original point does not mean that it was incorrect. My point was always that the effort involved in acquiring the non-TP items was more significant than the effort required to acquire the TP-based ones, so if as an example a recipe required 500 items that each require a minute to gain but can be TPed, and one item that requires 20 hours to gain and must be done personally, then even though the former would be more numerous, the latter would represent more effort.
The best farms usually net you around 10G an hour. The average legendary (that people want) costs around 2,700 gold to craft. That’s roughly 270 hours to farm the gold to get the legendary that you want.
So you’re telling me that it takes more than 270 hours to do world completion and farm EotM for badges and 1 million karma?
I have no idea what you’re even arguing here. You’re comparing the costs of the entire Legendary to the cost of some of it’s components. Take that full cost and factor out the cost of the Precursor (since the argument is positing that the price of the Pre would be dropped to a reasonable level), and factor in that you will be earning many of the other materials as a free bonus while completing the WC, karma, and WvW requirements, and you’re likely talking something more in the 1000g range total.
Let’s take one of the pricier ones, Sunrise. The Gift of Metal would cost ~38g retail, but an experienced player would have all or most of the metal needed for that. A Gift of Light would cost a staggering 337g, largely due to the ridiculous price of Charged Lodestones (which I think most agree could also use a price correction), but again an experienced player would likely have at least a decent amount of those sitting around, and they are more farmable than many other ingredients if they are your goal. Then there’s about 100g in ectos, which again a player should have plenty of, then we have 823g in T2 mats.
So in total we’d be looking at 1198g in TP-able materials, and that’s IF you start at zero on all of those. If we assume the player has half or more of the mats required as a side effect of the adventuring he needs to do to acquire the ingredients, it would be closer to 400g in mats, then plus the fixed costs of 220g for recipes and icy runestones. At current market values, the Precursor would still be the largest monetary expense involved.
High demand precursors are only expensive if you buy them. All of the ones that are for sale came from somewhere, and every single player in the game has the exact same ability to make them appear out of thin air.
Using current methods, the existing RNG options are just not worth even considering. The only ones that are even remotely reliable are no more affordable than buying the Precursor outright, unless you’re very lucky, and if you’re unlucky they can be even more expensive.
This means that you’ve got three options:
Yes, I don’t think there’s anyone here who does not have an accurate grasp on the EXISTING options available. What we’re asking for is more and better options to be added to the game.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I still don’t understand what the problem is when you can use the mystic forge to get the specific precursor you want. Just because Dawn is behind a RNG wall doesn’t mean you cant get one. Just keep plugging away the rares and exos to get it.
lol you guys.
It’s true. It’s just you don’t like the RNG factor about it which means that a small percentage may find themselves outliers on the wrong end.
a small % does not mean negligable.
2% is not a small number of people, if there were 500,000 people who attempted it 10, 00 people will have horrible experiences.
You diminish people who through no fault of their own will inevitably be on the bad side of a random distribution, and say oh well sucks to be you. only 1/2000 people die of car accidents? bleh may as well do nothing about that.
I still don’t understand what the problem is when you can use the mystic forge to get the specific precursor you want. Just because Dawn is behind a RNG wall doesn’t mean you cant get one. Just keep plugging away the rares and exos to get it.
lol you guys.
It’s true. It’s just you don’t like the RNG factor about it which means that a small percentage may find themselves outliers on the wrong end.
a small % does not mean negligable.
2% is not a small number of people, if there were 500,000 people who attempted it 10, 00 people will have horrible experiences.You diminish people who through no fault of their own will inevitably be on the bad side of a random distribution, and say oh well sucks to be you. only 1/2000 people die of car accidents? bleh may as well do nothing about that.
I never said negligible. I was just stating that your arguments usually involve that group of people. I wasn’t really making an argument.
I still don’t understand what the problem is when you can use the mystic forge to get the specific precursor you want. Just because Dawn is behind a RNG wall doesn’t mean you cant get one. Just keep plugging away the rares and exos to get it.
lol you guys.
It’s true. It’s just you don’t like the RNG factor about it which means that a small percentage may find themselves outliers on the wrong end.
a small % does not mean negligable.
2% is not a small number of people, if there were 500,000 people who attempted it 10, 00 people will have horrible experiences.You diminish people who through no fault of their own will inevitably be on the bad side of a random distribution, and say oh well sucks to be you. only 1/2000 people die of car accidents? bleh may as well do nothing about that.
I never said negligible. I was just stating that your arguments usually involve that group of people. I wasn’t really making an argument.
ah, sorry then
so when do we get some new legends .
it would be nice to have the twilight/sunrise version for all weps
I really want a legend short bow that does not shoot unicorns lol
Truth be told, there are those who will never understand how Capitalism works. This applies to both virtual worlds like GW2, or in the real world. The same person complaining about desirable Precursors being priced high would question why a Ferrari 458 Spider costs $250,000+. And the same argument would be made when saying they want Precursors and the Ferrari cheaper so everyone could afford them.
As mt stated above, you’re paying a premium price for instant gratification to get something everyone wants. If you’re unwilling or unable to pay the price others are willing to fork over, then you have other options. Pray that RNG has the item in question fall in your lap from mob loot, or feed Zommoros items and pray for RNG. You can increase your RNG odds by using lv 80 Exotics, or get even better chances when tossing in the same weapon type. I got a Chaos Gun from using 4 random lv 80 Exotics, and Spark from using only Daggers. Took a while, but that’s the downside to playing with RNG instead of buying it directly.
There are good debates and bad debates. I think the RNG thread John started is a great way to discuss the pros and cons of the RNG concept. Feeling Entitled to getting the luxury good for a price that you can afford isn’t a valid argument that can be debated seriously. Not caring about the health of the economy collapsing just so you can get your way isn’t a valid direction to take either. You play in a game with other players. If you’re so adamant to push an idea or suggestion who’s main point is to only help yourself get what you want, at the expense of balance and enjoyment of the rest of the population, then perhaps MMOs aren’t for you.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
That is such a crock of kitten and you know it. The costs associated ig and in rl are not even remotely comparable.
Your whole debate is NOT valid and you know it. To think it is would be claiming ignorance, insanity, or trolling…..and I think we all know which one it mainly is.
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
There isn’t anything crocky about it. The comparison makes sense regardless of the item is virtual or physical. The desire to own something expensive is the same.
How on earth does actual costs of production compare to game where there is no such thing?
Serenity now~Insanity later
/sigh, you misunderstanding my original point does not mean that it was incorrect. My point was always that the effort involved in acquiring the non-TP items was more significant than the effort required to acquire the TP-based ones, so if as an example a recipe required 500 items that each require a minute to gain but can be TPed, and one item that requires 20 hours to gain and must be done personally, then even though the former would be more numerous, the latter would represent more effort.
It’s not a misunderstanding where nothing in your posts or anything previously gave the impression that you were talking about effort. In fact, like I said already, your statement that “most of the other ingredients cannot be purchased on the TP anyways” clearly is talking about quantity. You changed it to be about effort to save face.
Your example is also flawed since you’re completely ignoring the effort that it would take to acquire the gold. This was mentioned in the other part of my post which you missed and I;ll address below.
So you’re telling me that it takes more than 270 hours to do world completion and farm EotM for badges and 1 million karma?
No. I’m telling you it’s the opposite. It takes more time (effort) to farm gold than it would take someone to farm the karma, badges, and dungeon tokens. That’s pretty evident considering large percentage of people already have them.
I have no idea what you’re even arguing here. You’re comparing the costs of the entire Legendary to the cost of some of it’s components. Take that full cost and factor out the cost of the Precursor (since the argument is positing that the price of the Pre would be dropped to a reasonable level), and factor in that you will be earning many of the other materials as a free bonus while completing the WC, karma, and WvW requirements, and you’re likely talking something more in the 1000g range total.
Of course you don’t because you didn’t read and comprehend my post completely. I’m comparing the components that can be bought off the TP to the components that cannot. I had clearly stated that.
Nice try but you cannot take precursors out of the equation. You’re also neglecting that the price of the other items would undoubtedly increase as a result. Another thing is that whether or not precursor prices drop has nothing to do with the argument about whether there are more purchasable items than non-purchasable items. It’s also about 1,000G for a Gift of Fortune right now and an average of 312G for the legendary gift. You mentioned Sunrise which costs 478G.
All of these costs were pulled last night.
Let’s take one of the pricier ones, Sunrise. The Gift of Metal would cost ~38g retail, but an experienced player would have all or most of the metal needed for that. A Gift of Light would cost a staggering 337g, largely due to the ridiculous price of Charged Lodestones (which I think most agree could also use a price correction), but again an experienced player would likely have at least a decent amount of those sitting around, and they are more farmable than many other ingredients if they are your goal. Then there’s about 100g in ectos, which again a player should have plenty of, then we have 823g in T2 mats.
So in total we’d be looking at 1198g in TP-able materials, and that’s IF you start at zero on all of those. If we assume the player has half or more of the mats required as a side effect of the adventuring he needs to do to acquire the ingredients, it would be closer to 400g in mats, then plus the fixed costs of 220g for recipes and icy runestones. At current market values, the Precursor would still be the largest monetary expense involved.
It takes time to farm the materials for the gift of metal just as it takes time to farm the gold. You won’t have all of that ore by the time you had farmed all of the karma, badges, tokens, and world completion. The nodes are not as frequent and especially if you’re farming those non-TP components on the same map as the nodes take time to respawn.
Have you tried farming charged cores and lodestones? I don’t think so. I forgot what the level range was before certain enemies and bags started dropping them. However, you won’t really be farming these while going for the non-TP components. You’d maybe have a handful of charged cores and lodestones, if you’re lucky.
A stack of ectos can be bought for about 105G. You need 481 which puts the actual cost for ectos at about 203G. World completion will not net you many rares/exotics. I believe that there are only 4-5 zones that would give you rewards that can be salvaged for ectos. You’d probably get a few rares and maybe a lucky exotic while doing dungeon runs for the tokens. Farming karma normally involves farming things that give loot which could be rares and exotics. I’ve farmed EotM, which is currently the best place to farm karma, and I’m not really swimming in rares and exotics.
I have no idea what T2 materials are used but I’ll assume you meant T6. You’ll get maybe a few dozen of the tier 6 fine materials through playing and as a result of forging for mystic clovers. You will still need to farm or buy the majority of them.
It’s 1,478G for everything but the precursor if you’re going for Sunrise. You’re assumption that players will have acquired half the materials by the time they’ve gotten the non-TP items is a very large exaggeration. It’s also 100G for icy runestones and 10G each for the two legendary gift recipes.
I’ll go back to my point that I made in my post which you did not understand. Someone can expect to make 10G an hour which I think is a bit of a stretch but I’m going to use that for simplicity. It’ll take almost 150 hours to farm the gold for everything but the precursor. As someone who as farmed EotM for karma to craft their own legendaries, as well as leveled 6 characters through world exploration, it takes more time to farm the gold.
I’m still thinking that you’d never crafted a legendary, never farmed for any of the items, and never looked at how to create a legendary. I may even go as farm as to wonder if you even play this game as another user questioned. You make such large exaggerations and treat it as fact while not knowing anything about the very thing you’re talking about.
Let’s take one of the pricier ones, Sunrise. The Gift of Metal would cost ~38g retail, but an experienced player would have all or most of the metal needed for that. A Gift of Light would cost a staggering 337g, largely due to the ridiculous price of Charged Lodestones (which I think most agree could also use a price correction), but again an experienced player would likely have at least a decent amount of those sitting around, and they are more farmable than many other ingredients if they are your goal. Then there’s about 100g in ectos, which again a player should have plenty of, then we have 823g in T2 mats.
So in total we’d be looking at 1198g in TP-able materials, and that’s IF you start at zero on all of those. If we assume the player has half or more of the mats required as a side effect of the adventuring he needs to do to acquire the ingredients, it would be closer to 400g in mats, then plus the fixed costs of 220g for recipes and icy runestones. At current market values, the Precursor would still be the largest monetary expense involved.
It takes time to farm the materials for the gift of metal just as it takes time to farm the gold. You won’t have all of that ore by the time you had farmed all of the karma, badges, tokens, and world completion. The nodes are not as frequent and especially if you’re farming those non-TP components on the same map as the nodes take time to respawn.
Have you tried farming charged cores and lodestones? I don’t think so. I forgot what the level range was before certain enemies and bags started dropping them. However, you won’t really be farming these while going for the non-TP components. You’d maybe have a handful of charged cores and lodestones, if you’re lucky.
A stack of ectos can be bought for about 105G. You need 481 which puts the actual cost for ectos at about 203G. World completion will not net you many rares/exotics. I believe that there are only 4-5 zones that would give you rewards that can be salvaged for ectos. You’d probably get a few rares and maybe a lucky exotic while doing dungeon runs for the tokens. Farming karma normally involves farming things that give loot which could be rares and exotics. I’ve farmed EotM, which is currently the best place to farm karma, and I’m not really swimming in rares and exotics.
since the random chances are substantially less, its highly likely that you can work toward all other items in legendary, even if you choose not to buy it. For some items its gold earning ineffecient, but thats mostly due to them putting ever drop in every monster.
So essentially the prices for other items in the process, you have a very realistic, progressive method to earn all other components. It may be long but its fairly predictable.
The worst offenders were lodestones pre champ bag. You could farm lodestones for 2 hours and still see nothing. Essentially random chance starts to break down the lower the odds are. However, lodestones were still something you could work more towards than a precursor.
So honestly, more expensive prices for other goods wouldnt be as bad as more expensive precursors. the range from unlucky to lucky would often be as wide. Also, if the price of materials all goes up, once you have hunted enough of one thing, you get more money from selling it.
If all lodestones go up 3x times their gold cost, it will still take the same amount of excess onyx to get one charged
(say charged is 5 gold and onyx is 1, triples in price charged is 15 gold onyx is 3, its still 5 onyx for every one charged, hypothetical)
It really would be more ideal if farming was more targeted though
Truth be told, there are those who will never understand how Capitalism works. This applies to both virtual worlds like GW2, or in the real world. The same person complaining about desirable Precursors being priced high would question why a Ferrari 458 Spider costs $250,000+. And the same argument would be made when saying they want Precursors and the Ferrari cheaper so everyone could afford them.
As mt stated above, you’re paying a premium price for instant gratification to get something everyone wants. If you’re unwilling or unable to pay the price others are willing to fork over, then you have other options. Pray that RNG has the item in question fall in your lap from mob loot, or feed Zommoros items and pray for RNG. You can increase your RNG odds by using lv 80 Exotics, or get even better chances when tossing in the same weapon type. I got a Chaos Gun from using 4 random lv 80 Exotics, and Spark from using only Daggers. Took a while, but that’s the downside to playing with RNG instead of buying it directly.
There are good debates and bad debates. I think the RNG thread John started is a great way to discuss the pros and cons of the RNG concept. Feeling Entitled to getting the luxury good for a price that you can afford isn’t a valid argument that can be debated seriously. Not caring about the health of the economy collapsing just so you can get your way isn’t a valid direction to take either. You play in a game with other players. If you’re so adamant to push an idea or suggestion who’s main point is to only help yourself get what you want, at the expense of balance and enjoyment of the rest of the population, then perhaps MMOs aren’t for you.
its not really like a luxury car at all. luxury cars cost more because they are better designed, and not as optimized manufacturing wise, they are also specially designed, so you have to pay the developer the price they want for it. Fact is, a lamborghini simply costs more to make, and you are also paying for how much an artist values his work. Its not really pure capitalism at work anyhow, because patents/copyrights are a big part of it, which lowers competition. Not to mention that all goods are not uniform.
Now, if they allowed people to design their own legendaries via graphics editing software, and then attached skill and time into crafting the items. which overall effected the performance of the weapon. Then, legendaries might be like luxury cars, where you are paying for higher production costs, and the genius/artistry/intellegience of the designers.
but this is not the case.
btw, i would love it if the game could actually add that.
so when do we get some new legends .
it would be nice to have the twilight/sunrise version for all weps
I really want a legend short bow that does not shoot unicorns lol
This is a different issue, but also a valid one. They definitely could stand to make new Legendary quality weapons, because many of the existing ones, while of high quality, are not suited to the tastes of the person who uses that weapon. For example I’d love to see a “shadow-based” legendary dagger, one with blackened steps, a swirling black aura, and a dancing black flame for the blade, something like that.
Truth be told, there are those who will never understand how Capitalism works. This applies to both virtual worlds like GW2, or in the real world. The same person complaining about desirable Precursors being priced high would question why a Ferrari 458 Spider costs $250,000+. And the same argument would be made when saying they want Precursors and the Ferrari cheaper so everyone could afford them.
And there are also people who understand capitalism, but that understand that they do not always agree with how it is applied. moderate capitalism is by far the best basis for an economic model, but absolute free market capitalism is as destructive a system as communism or any other, because while communism too freely redistributed everything down to a featureless gray, absolute capitalism concentrates wealth far too much in the hands of a few. The ideal is a balance in the middle, in which some make more than others, but nobody makes way too little or way ore than others, just a reasonable amount more or less based on effort.
Feeling Entitled to getting the luxury good for a price that you can afford isn’t a valid argument that can be debated seriously.
In the real world, where the price of most items reflects materials costs, it reflects personnel costs, it reflects transportation costs, all of which are not things in the virtual world. Now if it’s something they are selling on he gem store, then fair enough, that actually has designer costs, and we’re paying cash money for it to help pay off those costs. If it’s an ingame item though, where I’m just paying someone who RNGed their way to owning one, then I do believe there’s room to complain.
My complaint isn’t with the player asking for that price, that is of course the price the market demands and he’d be a fool not to insist on it,. My complaint is with the game designers that put the mechanisms in place that caused that to be the fair market value, by giving the item a high desirability, while alos providing a mechanism that ensures a relatively low supply.
I do not want players who own a Dawn to “kamikaze” it and throw it on the TP with a 250g sell order, I want ANet to change the conditions under which Dawn can be acquired so that the fair market value will drop down to a more reasonable level. If Ferrari could produce an infinite number of 458 Spiders at ZERO cost for each, and they would receive no profit themselves regardless of the price they sold for, then I would definitely want them to produce one for each person who wanted one.
It’s not a misunderstanding where nothing in your posts or anything previously gave the impression that you were talking about effort. In fact, like I said already, your statement that “most of the other ingredients cannot be purchased on the TP anyways” clearly is talking about quantity. You changed it to be about effort to save face.
You can continue to be incorrect in believing that.
Of course you don’t because you didn’t read and comprehend my post completely. I’m comparing the components that can be bought off the TP to the components that cannot. I had clearly stated that.
But no Legendary costs the amount in components that you list, unless you include the precursor.
Nice try but you cannot take precursors out of the equation.
But that’s exactly what we’ve been doing. Your argument was that if they made the cost of the precursors negligible, then it would drive up the price of all the remaining materials to unaffordable levels. So the theory would involve the Pre price dropping to a relatively low level, and what would happen to the rest.
It’s also about 1,000G for a Gift of Fortune right now and an average of 312G for the legendary gift. You mentioned Sunrise which costs 478G.
I added up the prices for Sunrise, including both of those gifts it only came to ~823+ Dawn.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
It’s not a misunderstanding where nothing in your posts or anything previously gave the impression that you were talking about effort. In fact, like I said already, your statement that “most of the other ingredients cannot be purchased on the TP anyways” clearly is talking about quantity. You changed it to be about effort to save face.
You can continue to be incorrect in believing that.
Of course you don’t because you didn’t read and comprehend my post completely. I’m comparing the components that can be bought off the TP to the components that cannot. I had clearly stated that.
But no Legendary costs the amount in components that you list, unless you include the precursor.
Um wow. How about you sit down and calculate the entire cost of a legendary. Of course I included the precursor! You’re the one who decided to leave it out when it was not even part of the discussion. This entire discussion has dragged on because you are unwilling to admit that were wrong when you sated that there were more materials that could not be bought than there were that could be bought off the TP.
Nice try but you cannot take precursors out of the equation.
But that’s exactly what we’ve been doing. Your argument was that if they made the cost of the precursors negligible, then it would drive up the price of all the remaining materials to unaffordable levels. So the theory would involve the Pre price dropping to a relatively low level, and what would happen to the rest.
You’re taking something from another discussion with another player. It had nothing to do with this one.
It’s also about 1,000G for a Gift of Fortune right now and an average of 312G for the legendary gift. You mentioned Sunrise which costs 478G.
I added up the prices for Sunrise, including both of those gifts it only came to ~823+ Dawn.
You added incorrectly. You adding 312G to 1000G and getting 823G kind of shows that. The 478G was for the legendary gift for Sunrise.
EDIT: I ran the numbers again and the legendary gift for Sunrise is 485G. The 100 charged lodestones alone are 328G.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
It takes time to farm the materials for the gift of metal just as it takes time to farm the gold. You won’t have all of that ore by the time you had farmed all of the karma, badges, tokens, and world completion. The nodes are not as frequent and especially if you’re farming those non-TP components on the same map as the nodes take time to respawn.
Have you tried farming charged cores and lodestones? I don’t think so. I forgot what the level range was before certain enemies and bags started dropping them. However, you won’t really be farming these while going for the non-TP components. You’d maybe have a handful of charged cores and lodestones, if you’re lucky.
If you’re deliberately starting from zero and trying to farm up 250 platinum, yeah, might take a while. If you’re a normal player who is playing up through the content, you should just accumulate plenty through casual gameplay, salvaging mats and harvesting what you come across with no intent. And as for Charged Lodestones, you may not get the full 100 yourself, but I just checked and I have 53 of them, through no effort of my own, and I’ve probably spent a decent amount of them along the way.
Again, remember that my goal here is not to evaluate the cost for a hardcore legendary crafter who is starting from scratch and powering to meet the requirements to make a legendary for resale, but rather for a casual gamer who is seeking to acquire his first legendary and has accumulated a lot of random stuff along the way.
It’s also 100G for icy runestones and 10G each for the two legendary gift recipes.
Yes, I counted those in the final calculation.
I’m still thinking that you’d never crafted a legendary, never farmed for any of the items, and never looked at how to create a legendary.
And as I said, you can continue to be wrong.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
It takes time to farm the materials for the gift of metal just as it takes time to farm the gold. You won’t have all of that ore by the time you had farmed all of the karma, badges, tokens, and world completion. The nodes are not as frequent and especially if you’re farming those non-TP components on the same map as the nodes take time to respawn.
Have you tried farming charged cores and lodestones? I don’t think so. I forgot what the level range was before certain enemies and bags started dropping them. However, you won’t really be farming these while going for the non-TP components. You’d maybe have a handful of charged cores and lodestones, if you’re lucky.
If you’re deliberately starting from zero and trying to farm up 250 platinum, yeah, might take a while. If you’re a normal player who is playing up through the content, you should just accumulate plenty through casual gameplay, salvaging mats and harvesting what you come across with no intent. And as for Charged Lodestones, you may not get the full 100 yourself, but I just checked and I have 53 of them, through no effort of my own, and I’ve probably spent a decent amount of them along the way.
Again, remember that my goal here is not to evaluate the cost for a hardcore legendary crafter who is starting from scratch and powering to meet the requirements to make a legendary for resale, but rather for a casual gamer who is seeking to acquire his first legendary and has accumulated a lot of random stuff along the way.
Of course I’m going from zero. It would be highly variable and misleading if you didn’t. I could make the argument that someone with 3 million karma, 10k badges, 5k tokens, and 6 world completions. This would be misleading. This is why when you’re comparing the two, you must start with each at zero.
You were farming for loot which is why you have all of those lodestones. You do not get them from doing world completion. You do not get them from doing dungeons unless you do CoE but you only need 500 tokens so the chances of getting a ton from this are slim. WvW player loot bags have a chance (or maybe it’s the heavy bags you sometimes get) I believe although I don’t particularly remember getting any. Karma farming is normally done concurrently with loot farming.
If you started at zero with everything,m a player would have all of the non-TP items well before they have everything else.
It’s also 100G for icy runestones and 10G each for the two legendary gift recipes.
Yes, I counted those in the final calculation.
Then I don’t know where you went wrong with your calculation. It’s likely some missed detail or mistake that caused it.
I’m still thinking that you’d never crafted a legendary, never farmed for any of the items, and never looked at how to create a legendary.
And as I said, you can continue to be wrong.
Perhaps I am wrong about what you quoted. It’s just that you leave that impression to me. I really do hope that I am wrong about that by the way.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
Of course I’m going from zero. It would be highly variable and misleading if you didn’t. I could make the argument that someone with 3 million karma, 10k badges, 5k tokens, and 6 world completions. This would be misleading. This is why when you’re comparing the two, you must start with each at zero.
I’m just saying, we’re talking what the requirement would be for an average player who is playing the game for fun, and decides he can reasonably make a run at his first and likely only Legendary, the reasonable average player experience, not a player starting at level 1 and deciding “I’m going to hardcore work on achieving a legendary in the minimum time possible,” nor an established player who already blew their inventory on a legendary or two and is starting from scratch on their next one.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
How on earth does actual costs of production compare to game where there is no such thing?
Didnt know forging a precursor isnt cost intensive anymore…
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Didnt know forging a precursor isnt cost intensive anymore…
Again, it’s an artificial cost. There is a cost that exists because ANet says it exists.
If you’re building a Ferrari, there is a manufacturing cost that cannot be ignored. You need a lot of very specialized, complex machines. You need a bunch of well trained professional workers, and pay them according to their skill. You need at minimum thousands of dollars in high quality metals, plastics, and leather which exist in limited quantities. It is impossible to produce a Ferrari for $0 (even if they chose to make one for free, it would come by them eating the fixed costs, so someone is effectively paying for it).
If you’re “building” a GS Precursor via the forge, then even if you remove RNG from the equation and assume you’ll always have an “average” pull, it would involve throwing in hundreds of GSs into the forge (because ANet says that the drop rate has an average in the hundreds), and those GSs have a value of around 60s+ each (because ANet says that they cost a certain amount of mats to craft, or a certain number of green MF swings to craft, or only randomly drop into the world at a certain rate).
If ANet were to say that every four rare GSs that get chucked in results in a precursor, then the instant value of Dawn would become ~5g, or the cost of four rare GSs, then doubled since you’d have a 50/50 chance of getting a Dusk instead. Of course this might result in a temporary rise in demand for rare GSs, but since they’re easy enough to craft then even if the material costs rise a little it could never reasonable rise to more than 10g per Dawn/Dusk. Long term it would likely lead to a drop in GS prices, to around the 40s that other weapons go for, dropping the price of Dawn/Dusk to ~3.2g.
Now I’m not saying that’s what they should do, I’m not saying that should be the target, I’m just making the point that it would be within their power to do that, and that in terms of actual effort it would take almost nothing on ANet’s part to make that much of the change (making it a stable practice would take a little more work). I’m pointing out that this is a purely artificial price barrier in a way that is NOT true for any real world physical object, and thus analogies using real world physical objects are of limited value.
Now what I believe they should do is something that splits the difference a bit, one of numerous options available to them to reduce the player cost and effort in crafting a Precursor, not to make it as easy as in the example above, but to make it easier than it is now, as if God came to the Ferrari plan and waved His hand, and lo, the trees outside the plant were turned into autopart trees, magically growing engine fruits and chassis fruits and upholstery fruits, so that all they’d need to do is cut the parts down and slot them into the car, turning a 2-3 months it would take the better part of an afternoon, and instead of costing thousands of dollars in raw materials alone it would be practically free. That is the sort of magic wand that is available to ANet that was never available to Enzo Ferrari, and I’m asking them to wave it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Didnt know forging a precursor isnt cost intensive anymore…
Again, it’s an artificial cost. There is a cost that exists because ANet says it exists.
If you’re building a Ferrari, there is a manufacturing cost that cannot be ignored. You need a lot of very specialized, complex machines. You need a bunch of well trained professional workers, and pay them according to their skill. You need at minimum thousands of dollars in high quality metals, plastics, and leather which exist in limited quantities. It is impossible to produce a Ferrari for $0 (even if they chose to make one for free, it would come by them eating the fixed costs, so someone is effectively paying for it).
If you’re “building” a GS Precursor via the forge, then even if you remove RNG from the equation and assume you’ll always have an “average” pull, it would involve throwing in hundreds of GSs into the forge (because ANet says that the drop rate has an average in the hundreds), and those GSs have a value of around 60s+ each (because ANet says that they cost a certain amount of mats to craft, or a certain number of green MF swings to craft, or only randomly drop into the world at a certain rate).
If ANet were to say that every four rare GSs that get chucked in results in a precursor, then the instant value of Dawn would become ~5g, or the cost of four rare GSs, then doubled since you’d have a 50/50 chance of getting a Dusk instead. Of course this might result in a temporary rise in demand for rare GSs, but since they’re easy enough to craft then even if the material costs rise a little it could never reasonable rise to more than 10g per Dawn/Dusk. Long term it would likely lead to a drop in GS prices, to around the 40s that other weapons go for, dropping the price of Dawn/Dusk to ~3.2g.
Now I’m not saying that’s what they should do, I’m not saying that should be the target, I’m just making the point that it would be within their power to do that, and that in terms of actual effort it would take almost nothing on ANet’s part to make that much of the change (making it a stable practice would take a little more work). I’m pointing out that this is a purely artificial price barrier in a way that is NOT true for any real world physical object, and thus analogies using real world physical objects are of limited value.
Now what I believe they should do is something that splits the difference a bit, one of numerous options available to them to reduce the player cost and effort in crafting a Precursor, not to make it as easy as in the example above, but to make it easier than it is now, as if God came to the Ferrari plan and waved His hand, and lo, the trees outside the plant were turned into autopart trees, magically growing engine fruits and chassis fruits and upholstery fruits, so that all they’d need to do is cut the parts down and slot them into the car, turning a 2-3 months it would take the better part of an afternoon, and instead of costing thousands of dollars in raw materials alone it would be practically free. That is the sort of magic wand that is available to ANet that was never available to Enzo Ferrari, and I’m asking them to wave it.
Thanks for agreeing with me that right now forging precursors is cost intensive.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Thanks for agreeing with me that right now forging precursors is cost intensive.
That was never in doubt by anyone, the point is that it doesn’t have to be.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Thanks for agreeing with me that right now forging precursors is cost intensive.
That was never in doubt by anyone, the point is that it doesn’t have to be.
That depends on what the purpose of Legendary weapons is.
If the purpose is to be an item that everyone has multiple of, then you are right, it doesn’t have to be cost intensive to get a precursor.
If, however, the purpose is to be a long term goal that carries the prestige of being both time consuming and rare, then, yes, there must be a cost intensive aspect. Having that aspect be a single item is far less destabilizing to the economy than if you were to spread out the cost across multiple items (especially if they are used for other things).
Server: Devona’s Rest
If the purpose is to be an item that everyone has multiple of, then you are right, it doesn’t have to be cost intensive to get a precursor.
I don’t think everyone should have a full set of Legendaries. I do think that by this point, every player who’s been playing regularly since launch should have at least one.
More importantly, while I accept the idea that Legendaries should be “rare” and “special,” I do not believe that the current mechanisms support this rarity in the proper manner. Currently the dividing line between whether you have the Legendary you want or not, outside of extreme luck, is in how much gold you have. Those that have multiple Legendaries are often not the very best of the best in the game, but rather are just those who have accumulated the most currency.
Now maybe you earned this gold through thousands of hours of hardcore gameplay, grinding away at core content and accumulating your wealth, or maybe you just spent a lot of time having out in LA fidgeting with the TP interface, or maybe you just have a lot of cash money and converted it into gems.
I feel that if Legendaries are meant to be rare, meant to be a sign of real effort and distinction, then the lockouts that prevent a player from having one should be entirely based on core gameplay skill and effort, NOT on gold acquisition. For Legendaries to truly fit that purpose, they would need to be BoP, with more focus on the self-earned ingredients like Gift of Battle and Gift of Exploration, use of karma, use of dungeon tokens, basically use of “things you have done in the game that are of merit.” Gold can be a part of it, the Icy Runes, for example, but should really be a very minor part of it, a far simpler part of it, rather than requiring around two thousand gold to craft one of the higher end legendaries.
In the current form, in which so much of the Legendary construction is TP-able, and even the final outcome can be bought for cash, I’m sorry but that is just not an “item of prestige,” it’s just an expensive toy. Think of it like this, if you want to consider a Legendary to be like an Olympic gold medal, then that’s fine, but consider it a bit like a gold medal that you can earn either by running the 100m sprint the fastest in the world, OR by paying $50K and getting to start the 100m sprint 10m from the finish line, OR by just paying $200K and getting the medal for doing nothing else, under those circumstances how could you consider owning one to be a significant achievement?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Thanks for agreeing with me that right now forging precursors is cost intensive.
That was never in doubt by anyone, the point is that it doesn’t have to be.
Right now, you can pay 100 bucks for gems to buy a precursor.
Give me 1 reason why Anet should devaluate their product just because they have the posibility to do so?
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Thanks for agreeing with me that right now forging precursors is cost intensive.
That was never in doubt by anyone, the point is that it doesn’t have to be.
Right now, you can pay 100 bucks for gems to buy a precursor.
Give me 1 reason why Anet should devaluate their product just because they have the posibility to do so?
For their reputation. I myself don’t buy any gems because I think their game is, at its current state, not worth my money and I’ve seen dozen of threads with many players claiming the same. And the acquisition of precursors isn’t exactly a poster child for this game.
It’s not that it should be particulary easy, but a clear goal rather than just a RNG chance would be cool.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
They could become the next EA or Ubisoft…that’d be great right?
Serenity now~Insanity later
How on earth does actual costs of production compare to game where there is no such thing?
You’re taking his example too literally. He’s not making a 1:1 comparison. His point is simple. People want luxury goods for cheap and it’s because they don’t understand how stuff is valued.
Thanks for agreeing with me that right now forging precursors is cost intensive.
That was never in doubt by anyone, the point is that it doesn’t have to be.
Right now, you can pay 100 bucks for gems to buy a precursor.
Give me 1 reason why Anet should devaluate their product just because they have the posibility to do so?For their reputation. I myself don’t buy any gems because I think their game is, at its current state, not worth my money and I’ve seen dozen of threads with many players claiming the same. And the acquisition of precursors isn’t exactly a poster child for this game.
It’s not that it should be particulary easy, but a clear goal rather than just a RNG chance would be cool.
No, that would actually damage their reputation. There is a very real effect where people associate quality with value. If Anet were just giving away stuff for almost nothing after the valuation they have put on their items, I would have VERY real concerns about the state of the game.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
No, that would actually damage their reputation. There is a very real effect where people associate quality with value. If Anet were just giving away stuff for almost nothing after the valuation they have put on their items, I would have VERY real concerns about the state of the game.
For example: Everyone wants to show off their Gy….something ghost dog mini pet.
No one runs around with Mini Queen Jennah.
They are both equally useful, but one had people complaining about occupying bank space while the other had people offering to pay thousands of gold for a non-account bound version.
The difference between them is that one was scarce and the other was common.
Humans are incredibly vain creatures. It’s why shiny things are expensive even if they aren’t useful.
Server: Devona’s Rest
Thanks for agreeing with me that right now forging precursors is cost intensive.
That was never in doubt by anyone, the point is that it doesn’t have to be.
Right now, you can pay 100 bucks for gems to buy a precursor.
Give me 1 reason why Anet should devaluate their product just because they have the posibility to do so?For their reputation. I myself don’t buy any gems because I think their game is, at its current state, not worth my money and I’ve seen dozen of threads with many players claiming the same. And the acquisition of precursors isn’t exactly a poster child for this game.
It’s not that it should be particulary easy, but a clear goal rather than just a RNG chance would be cool.No, that would actually damage their reputation. There is a very real effect where people associate quality with value. If Anet were just giving away stuff for almost nothing after the valuation they have put on their items, I would have VERY real concerns about the state of the game.
Where did I say I want precursors for free? Seriously, where did you get that nonsense from? I’m questioning their way of acquiring precursors, not the time one needs to get precursors.
Nowhere … I didn’t accuse you saying you wanted precursors for free. I used an extreme example there. In no way should Anet reduce ANY of their valuations just because of some perceptions players have of the state of the game. THAT is nonsense. There is NO link to reducing people’s concerns over the game state and selling something for less or cheap.
There is a VERY clear goal for precursors because there is a market value attached to them.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Thanks for agreeing with me that right now forging precursors is cost intensive.
That was never in doubt by anyone, the point is that it doesn’t have to be.
Right now, you can pay 100 bucks for gems to buy a precursor.
Give me 1 reason why Anet should devaluate their product just because they have the posibility to do so?
if precursors were meant to be gem store item, they should just have put it in the gem store and been done with it.
I dont think they were created for that purpose though