Precursors selling for 65 Gold on TP!
How about looking at it from a top down perspective.
Anet has a concept of how many hours of gameplay they think a legendary should generally require. In pre-launch interviews I recall that number being 6-12 months so mostly casual, but focused, gameplay. Is this accurate? I think so. If you only play one or two hours per day but make sure you use your time efficiently it shouldn’t take more than a year to make Twilight. So the system as it exists now is working as intended. if you think 6-12 months of casual gameplay is too long for a legendary that is a personal issue.
I’m not against some other alternative system of precursor acquisition, for what its worth, so long as the hours to obtain it roughly equals the hours to farm the gold to buy the median price precursor outright.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
problem has little to do with the price of the cheapest precursors, and more to do with the demand vs supply of the more expensive ones. Your example actually highlights how precursors are supplied in a way that is inconsistent and causes an unstable price.
Precursors are all supplied in a consistent manner, whether through forging or drops. The price of precursors are stable too. The highly demanded ones have spiked in price a few times based off of complete system(wardrobe) changes but then they have stayed stable.
Precursor availability is more important than the trading post.
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
How about looking at it from a top down perspective.
Anet has a concept of how many hours of gameplay they think a legendary should generally require. In pre-launch interviews I recall that number being 6-12 months so mostly casual, but focused, gameplay. Is this accurate? I think so. If you only play one or two hours per day but make sure you use your time efficiently it shouldn’t take more than a year to make Twilight. So the system as it exists now is working as intended. if you think 6-12 months of casual gameplay is too long for a legendary that is a personal issue.
I’m not against some other alternative system of precursor acquisition, for what its worth, so long as the hours to obtain it roughly equals the hours to farm the gold to buy the median price precursor outright.
Pretty much this. As it is, every current acquisition method is pure gambling. No one’s debating supply and demand, and (almost) no one is calling for a Happy Birthday Here’s a Precursor Day. People are willing to work for it, but there needs to be actual progression. Chasing a steadily increasing gold amount isn’t progression.
Given everything else that’s required for a Legendary, the precursor shouldn’t be the randomly-assigned gate to its development. Heck, make the scavenger-hunt/crafted/etc precursor account bound, so it can’t be sold on the market. Tie the recipe to finishing Living Story, just to make it take time to get. It’s not about people being “lazy” or “dumb,” it’s about a poor reward scheme that doesn’t do this game any favors.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
The real problem is:
Colin Johanson said:
We still plan to do both new legendary weapons, as well as a clear path (on top of the current random chance) to gain precursors which players can see their progress and understand how much work they have left to do to gain it.I dont see how this would add value to the cheap precursors.
Value doesn’t need to be added to cheap precursors. Cheap precursors have value already.
The more I read, the more this seems relevant.
http://kevinbolk.deviantart.com/art/Hey-Mr-Straw-Man-445823549
The more I read, the more this seems relevant.
http://kevinbolk.deviantart.com/art/Hey-Mr-Straw-Man-445823549
I think I get it. The guy calls out the straw-man and then the straw-man switches to ad-hominem. At which point, the guy just gives up and tells the straw-man what he wants to hear cause it’s not worth the effort.
Or words to that effect.
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
No, but it is more important than the trading post. People around here insist that making precursors super-available would wreck the TP like Scarlet wrecked Lion’s Arch, and maybe they’re right, but even if they are right, it’s a change that needs to happen. Let the damage come, let the damage be repaired, we’ll move on.
If you only play one or two hours per day but make sure you use your time efficiently it shouldn’t take more than a year to make Twilight. So the system as it exists now is working as intended.
Nope.
Value doesn’t need to be added to cheap precursors. Cheap precursors have value already.
Yeah, the cheap precursors are about where ALL precursors should be. They don’t need to make the cheap ones more expensive, they need to make the expensive ones more cheap.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
No, but it is more important than the trading post. People around here insist that making precursors super-available would wreck the TP like Scarlet wrecked Lion’s Arch, and maybe they’re right, but even if they are right, it’s a change that needs to happen. Let the damage come, let the damage be repaired, we’ll move on.
If you only play one or two hours per day but make sure you use your time efficiently it shouldn’t take more than a year to make Twilight. So the system as it exists now is working as intended.
Nope.
Value doesn’t need to be added to cheap precursors. Cheap precursors have value already.
Yeah, the cheap precursors are about where ALL precursors should be. They don’t need to make the cheap ones more expensive, they need to make the expensive ones more cheap.
So just to clarify your position:
You feel that precursors should be widely available to everyone at very low prices?
You don’t care about what impact this would have on the economy?
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
No, but it is more important than the trading post. People around here insist that making precursors super-available would wreck the TP like Scarlet wrecked Lion’s Arch, and maybe they’re right, but even if they are right, it’s a change that needs to happen. Let the damage come, let the damage be repaired, we’ll move on.
That’s exactly why it won’t happen … while you may think this anarchist approach to the economy is OK because we will recover, it’s not the philosophy Anet has for it. Clearly, you have ignored the statements made by JS about how Anet values market stability and factored this into your thinking. This is why your position on the topic is considered to be a joke.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
problem has little to do with the price of the cheapest precursors, and more to do with the demand vs supply of the more expensive ones. Your example actually highlights how precursors are supplied in a way that is inconsistent and causes an unstable price.
Precursors are all supplied in a consistent manner, whether through forging or drops. The price of precursors are stable too. The highly demanded ones have spiked in price a few times based off of complete system(wardrobe) changes but then they have stayed stable.
Precursor availability is more important than the trading post.
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
i should say they are supplied in a way that causes inconsistencies in value.
problem has little to do with the price of the cheapest precursors, and more to do with the demand vs supply of the more expensive ones. Your example actually highlights how precursors are supplied in a way that is inconsistent and causes an unstable price.
Precursors are all supplied in a consistent manner, whether through forging or drops. The price of precursors are stable too. The highly demanded ones have spiked in price a few times based off of complete system(wardrobe) changes but then they have stayed stable.
Precursor availability is more important than the trading post.
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
i should say they are supplied in a way that causes inconsistencies in value.
Such as some are more desired than others causing them to have higher prices than the least desirable ones? Is that the inconsistency that you’re speaking of?
problem has little to do with the price of the cheapest precursors, and more to do with the demand vs supply of the more expensive ones. Your example actually highlights how precursors are supplied in a way that is inconsistent and causes an unstable price.
Precursors are all supplied in a consistent manner, whether through forging or drops. The price of precursors are stable too. The highly demanded ones have spiked in price a few times based off of complete system(wardrobe) changes but then they have stayed stable.
Precursor availability is more important than the trading post.
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
i should say they are supplied in a way that causes inconsistencies in value.
Such as some are more desired than others causing them to have higher prices than the least desirable ones? Is that the inconsistency that you’re speaking of?
such as they are created with very little link to peoples actual desire for them. (the cheaper ones)
This is why your position on the topic is considered to be a joke.
No, jokes are funny. This is like the hum of a fluorescent light bulb – an annoying side effect.
problem has little to do with the price of the cheapest precursors, and more to do with the demand vs supply of the more expensive ones. Your example actually highlights how precursors are supplied in a way that is inconsistent and causes an unstable price.
Precursors are all supplied in a consistent manner, whether through forging or drops. The price of precursors are stable too. The highly demanded ones have spiked in price a few times based off of complete system(wardrobe) changes but then they have stayed stable.
Precursor availability is more important than the trading post.
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
i should say they are supplied in a way that causes inconsistencies in value.
Such as some are more desired than others causing them to have higher prices than the least desirable ones? Is that the inconsistency that you’re speaking of?
such as they are created with very little link to peoples actual desire for them. (the cheaper ones)
Really? Why aren’t people rushing to make underwater legendaries with those precursors being so cheap? It’s because a lot of people don’t want to make them.
such as they are created with very little link to peoples actual desire for them. (the cheaper ones)
Really? Why aren’t people rushing to make underwater legendaries with those precursors being so cheap? It’s because a lot of people don’t want to make them.
So we all agree it is a demand issue?
i should say they are supplied in a way that causes inconsistencies in value.
You sir, are all over the place. It is not a supply issue.
problem has little to do with the price of the cheapest precursors, and more to do with the demand vs supply of the more expensive ones. Your example actually highlights how precursors are supplied in a way that is inconsistent and causes an unstable price.
Precursors are all supplied in a consistent manner, whether through forging or drops. The price of precursors are stable too. The highly demanded ones have spiked in price a few times based off of complete system(wardrobe) changes but then they have stayed stable.
Precursor availability is more important than the trading post.
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
i should say they are supplied in a way that causes inconsistencies in value.
Such as some are more desired than others causing them to have higher prices than the least desirable ones? Is that the inconsistency that you’re speaking of?
such as they are created with very little link to peoples actual desire for them. (the cheaper ones)
Really? Why aren’t people rushing to make underwater legendaries with those precursors being so cheap? It’s because a lot of people don’t want to make them.
we are talking about precursors not legendaries.
such as they are created with very little link to peoples actual desire for them. (the cheaper ones)
Really? Why aren’t people rushing to make underwater legendaries with those precursors being so cheap? It’s because a lot of people don’t want to make them.
So we all agree it is a demand issue?
i should say they are supplied in a way that causes inconsistencies in value.
You sir, are all over the place. It is not a supply issue.
my point is that the fact that some precursors cost 70 gold, and some cost 1300 is due to the fact that the items supplies dont match the demand at all.
you have the ones on the lower end, whose supply is is higher than its demand per day
and you have ones on the higher end whose supply is low compared to its demand per day.
Essentially precursors are supplied to the world via drop irrelevant to their demand, which causes the prices to be skewed. If the system was one where people created precursors by choice, you would see their value primarily determined by the total supply introduceable versus the demand.
this is why you dont see such a large disparity in ascended inscriptions and insignias. Even though some are a lot less desired, the market simply makes less of them.
The fact that there are 60 gold precursors is not a testament to supply and demand it is a testament that the system of item creation creates inconsistent values across various items that are supposed to be in the same teir as far as difficulty to obtain.
see, in a good system, supply and demand accurately reflects how hard something is to obtain, How worth it, it is to produce this item. This is not the case for many items in the game.
it is very much a supply issue.
problem has little to do with the price of the cheapest precursors, and more to do with the demand vs supply of the more expensive ones. Your example actually highlights how precursors are supplied in a way that is inconsistent and causes an unstable price.
Precursors are all supplied in a consistent manner, whether through forging or drops. The price of precursors are stable too. The highly demanded ones have spiked in price a few times based off of complete system(wardrobe) changes but then they have stayed stable.
Precursor availability is more important than the trading post.
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
i should say they are supplied in a way that causes inconsistencies in value.
Such as some are more desired than others causing them to have higher prices than the least desirable ones? Is that the inconsistency that you’re speaking of?
such as they are created with very little link to peoples actual desire for them. (the cheaper ones)
Really? Why aren’t people rushing to make underwater legendaries with those precursors being so cheap? It’s because a lot of people don’t want to make them.
we are talking about precursors not legendaries.
Legendaries drive people to buy precursors as there’s absolutely no reason for people to get them (except to resell). So the what legendary a weapon goes to is very relevant when it come to demand.
such as they are created with very little link to peoples actual desire for them. (the cheaper ones)
Really? Why aren’t people rushing to make underwater legendaries with those precursors being so cheap? It’s because a lot of people don’t want to make them.
So we all agree it is a demand issue?
i should say they are supplied in a way that causes inconsistencies in value.
You sir, are all over the place. It is not a supply issue.
Good. Supply for precursors does not have to ever be changed then. Also kind of odd that Phys is talking about supply in a later post. Hmmm….
such as they are created with very little link to peoples actual desire for them. (the cheaper ones)
Really? Why aren’t people rushing to make underwater legendaries with those precursors being so cheap? It’s because a lot of people don’t want to make them.
So we all agree it is a demand issue?
i should say they are supplied in a way that causes inconsistencies in value.
You sir, are all over the place. It is not a supply issue.
my point is that the fact that some precursors cost 70 gold, and some cost 1300 is due to the fact that the items supplies dont match the demand at all.
you have the ones on the lower end, whose supply is is higher than its demand per day
and you have ones on the higher end whose supply is low compared to its demand per day.Essentially precursors are supplied to the world via drop irrelevant to their demand, which causes the prices to be skewed. If the system was one where people created precursors by choice, you would see their value primarily determined by the total supply introduceable versus the demand.
this is why you dont see such a large disparity in ascended inscriptions and insignias. Even though some are a lot less desired, the market simply makes less of them.The fact that there are 60 gold precursors is not a testament to supply and demand it is a testament that the system of item creation creates inconsistent values across various items that are supposed to be in the same teir as far as difficulty to obtain.
see, in a good system, supply and demand accurately reflects how hard something is to obtain, How worth it, it is to produce this item. This is not the case for many items in the game.
it is very much a supply issue.
There are other factors at work as to why ascended inscriptions and insignias are all relatively the same price. Hint: It has nothing to do with the final output.
Yes, supply and demand levels are not the same across all precursors. This does not mean that something needs to be done though. The drop rates for precursors do not have to be manipulated because their demand outweigh their supply. Anet intended for precursors to be a long term goal on the basis of everything you have to gather to craft one.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
There are other factors at work as to why ascended inscriptions and insignias are all relatively the same price. Hint: It has nothing to do with the final output.
Yes, supply and demand levels are not the same across all precursors. This does not mean that something needs to be done though. The drop rates for precursors do not have to be manipulated because their demand outweigh their supply. Anet intended for precursors to be a long term goal on the basis of everything you have to gather to craft one.
i never said it had to do with the final output, it has to do with the cost/difficulty to create. Since insignias are all created with intent, and all have similar difficulties(costs of materials/time investment required), their costs are similar.(with regards to ascended inscriptions and insignias)
The point is precursor item creation is extemely poor at adapting to supply on the low level, and just moderately poor at adapting to demand at high levels.
On the low level, you have precursors that are very difficult to create, but have no value due to overproduction based on their demand.
On the high level you have a system which only people with a substantially greater amount of money than a precursor costs have the resources to normalize the rng in order to be able to add to the supply at a predictable level. (therefore it cannot be created with reliability versus its market value)
- this leads to low value precursors having no value
- and high value precursors seeming unattainable other than on the market, (for people who can only afford one) IE, creating more market demand, aka increasing the price. (this is less drastic than the low value implications)
There are other factors at work as to why ascended inscriptions and insignias are all relatively the same price. Hint: It has nothing to do with the final output.
Yes, supply and demand levels are not the same across all precursors. This does not mean that something needs to be done though. The drop rates for precursors do not have to be manipulated because their demand outweigh their supply. Anet intended for precursors to be a long term goal on the basis of everything you have to gather to craft one.
i never said it had to do with the final output, it has to do with the cost/difficulty to create. Since insignias are all created with intent, and all have similar difficulties(costs of materials/time investment required), their costs are similar.(with regards to ascended inscriptions and insignias)
The point is precursor item creation is extemely poor at adapting to supply on the low level, and just moderately poor at adapting to demand at high levels.
On the low level, you have precursors that are very difficult to create, but have no value due to overproduction based on their demand.
On the high level you have a system which only people with a substantially greater amount of money than a precursor costs have the resources to normalize the rng in order to be able to add to the supply at a predictable level. (therefore it cannot be created with reliability versus its market value)
- this leads to low value precursors having no value
- and high value precursors seeming unattainable other than on the market, (for people who can only afford one) IE, creating more market demand, aka increasing the price. (this is less drastic than the low value implications)
Sorry. Didn’t mean for it to come off as you were suggesting it. I was just using output as a placeholder for ascended weapons. Perhaps I should of just been direct about it.
My point about inscription/insignia costs is that the costs have nothing to do with them being part of ascended equipment. All of the insignias/inscriptions are exactly the same with the exception of the orichalcum inscription type. This is only ~5 tier 6 fine materials which are largely insignificant in relation to the other costs. Those tier 6 fine materials are also regulated by other factors in the economy than ascended.
I agree with the rest of your post for the most part. I still don’t agree with you that there must be a balance between demand and supply levels but that’s something we’re never really going to agree on.
You feel that precursors should be widely available to everyone at very low prices?
You don’t care about what impact this would have on the economy?
Not VERY low, but reasonable. The 50-250g range someplace, or work equivalent to that.
And yes, I don’t care about the impact. They should try to reduce the impact as much as they can manage, but if they can’t manage it to have zero impact, then so be it. The economy serves the players, not the other way around.
Clearly, you have ignored the statements made by JS about how Anet values market stability and factored this into your thinking.
Not “ignored,” “fundamentally disagree with.” It’s Anet’s second most offbase public stance, right there behind “we refuse to talk about systems that haven’t been implemented yet.” If we aren’t willing to consider that ANEt might change their mind about things then why even bother participating on the forums. If everything they think is automatically the right call then the game would just work out without our involvement.
So we all agree it is a demand issue?
There’s no such thing as a demand issue or a supply issue, all economic issues are both supply vs. demand issues, and in games, since the developers control both of these, all economic issues are developer vs. player issues. If something is too little demand, it is also too much supply, and if it’s too much demand then it’s also too little supply.
But you are at least part right about it being a demand issue. They could reduce demand for Precursors like Dusk and Dawn, say by releasing a “Sunrise, Twilight, and Eternity skin threepack” in the gem store for, say, 800 gems. Hell, maybe even 1600, I’d pick that up, and it should reduce demand for those precursors a little.
we are talking about precursors not legendaries.
Precursors have no real value outside of crafting a legendary. A Dawn that you cannot turn into a Sunrise is only worth a little over 4g. Hell, a Rage that you cannot turn into a Frenzy goes for twice that.
Eithinan had a point though about this being a demand issue, how about this, what if they left all Precursors completely alone, but changed the Legendary recipes to allow ANY exotic weapons of the appropriate type, rather than just one of them? That way they wouldn’t have to mess with Precursors at all, but people who want a Legendary can get the one they want for a fairly reasonable price. It would probably even cause a modest rise in most existing exotics (but never too high since you can always craft your own from scratch without too much hassle).
Anet intended for precursors to be a long term goal on the basis of everything you have to gather to craft one.
Look, the “[Legendaries] are meant to be a long term goal,” while true in and of itself, does not excuse precursor prices. They are already a fairly long term goal for most players given all the non-money costs involved, and are fairly effortless to pick up on a whim if you happen to have a ton of money, which may or may not be a long term goal. “[Legendaries] are meant to be a long term goal,” fair enough, let’s keep that element intact, 100%, but make that long term goal based on a factor OTHER than gold collection. Make the gold collection portion of crafting the Legendary fairly negligible, and make other, actual gameplay elements the major portion.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Legendaries work wonderfully as a long-term goal except for the precursor (also to a lesser extent lodestones, which have needed a reliable method of aquisition for ages).
The only gold you should have to spend on making one is the 100g of runestones plus the 20g for the two gift recipes.
Not “ignored,” “fundamentally disagree with.” It’s Anet’s second most offbase public stance, right there behind “we refuse to talk about systems that haven’t been implemented yet.” If we aren’t willing to consider that ANEt might change their mind about things then why even bother participating on the forums. If everything they think is automatically the right call then the game would just work out without our involvement.
Nothing offbase about them supporting a system they designed and implemented. There is little point making suggestions that go completely against the things they value. They want market stability and your suggestion is to allow for complete chaos. It would be like pushing for democracy in N Korea. You don’t recognize there are suggestions that are simply unreasonable considering the statements we’ve already been given. Yours is one of them.
Nothing offbase about them supporting a system they designed and implemented. There is little point making suggestions that go completely against the things they value.
Of course there’s value in it, as ultimately they are creating a consumer product, not a pet project, and if the consumers fundamentally disagree with the things they value then it would behoove them to change the things they value. I’m not saying that my views definitely represent the majority, but they should at least consider that they might, and try to determine if they do.
There is evidence that they do listen, they have changed numerous other areas of the game as they’ve gone.
It would be like pushing for democracy in N Korea.
How awful.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Nothing offbase about them supporting a system they designed and implemented. There is little point making suggestions that go completely against the things they value.
Of course there’s value in it, as ultimately they are creating a consumer product, not a pet project, and if the consumers fundamentally disagree with the things they value then it would behoove them to change the things they value. I’m not saying that my views definitely represent the majority, but they should at least consider that they might, and try to determine if they do.
You can’t use random opinions by a few players as the basis for change. Even if a majority were to back a push for “free 1k Gold to all players”, doesn’t make it a smart idea. To compare your thoughts to real life, in the United States, women didn’t used to have voting rights, and slavery was seen as being acceptable. Was that ok? No, but a lot of people thought so. When women earned the right to vote, and when slavery was abolished, a lot of people fundamentally disagreed with it.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I think raising a child would be a better example. Parents have different perspective than children. If you give in to every demand you end up with a child who eats nothing but cake and candy, stays up until midnight every night, never goes to school or takes a bath, etc. The child doesn’t understand the importance of a balanced diet, proper hygiene and getting rest and education, he is focused only on what he wants now and does not appreciate the big picture.
Likewise, if Anet gives players what they want right now they will quickly become bored with what they have and want more. So devs will need to either introduce a gear treadmill to keep players distracted by the new shiny or see the game population dwindle because they already have all the shinies.
I think raising a child would be a better example. Parents have different perspective than children. If you give in to every demand you end up with a child who eats nothing but cake and candy, stays up until midnight every night, never goes to school or takes a bath, etc. The child doesn’t understand the importance of a balanced diet, proper hygiene and getting rest and education, he is focused only on what he wants now and does not appreciate the big picture.
Likewise, if Anet gives players what they want right now they will quickly become bored with what they have and want more. So devs will need to either introduce a gear treadmill to keep players distracted by the new shiny or see the game population dwindle because they already have all the shinies.
To add to your post:
And yes, I don’t care about the impact.
This sums up all the arguments for change. Some players feel they deserve everything NOW, regardless of the consequences. There’s a term for this, but it escapes me at the moment…
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
^^^^^^^^^ This also helps to encapsulate this thread
This is wrong. Precursor availability is not more important than a core element of the game world.
No, but it is more important than the trading post. People around here insist that making precursors super-available would wreck the TP like Scarlet wrecked Lion’s Arch, and maybe they’re right, but even if they are right, it’s a change that needs to happen. Let the damage come, let the damage be repaired, we’ll move on.
That’s exactly why it won’t happen … while you may think this anarchist approach to the economy is OK because we will recover, it’s not the philosophy Anet has for it. Clearly, you have ignored the statements made by JS about how Anet values market stability and factored this into your thinking. This is why your position on the topic is considered to be a joke.
You can’t use random opinions by a few players as the basis for change.
I know, but nor can you dismiss them out of hand. It’s their responsibility to gauge what the overall player population would prefer, not to just assume that their way is the right way. That’s what gets us things like the NPE.
To compare your thoughts to real life, in the United States, women didn’t used to have voting rights, and slavery was seen as being acceptable. Was that ok? No, but a lot of people thought so. When women earned the right to vote, and when slavery was abolished, a lot of people fundamentally disagreed with it.
Yeah, but both were ultimately passed by majority rule. There will always be disagreement, what matters is finding out what is best for the majority. You can’t argue that the current Precursor* prices are good for the majority.
Likewise, if Anet gives players what they want right now they will quickly become bored with what they have and want more. So devs will need to either introduce a gear treadmill to keep players distracted by the new shiny or see the game population dwindle because they already have all the shinies.
To be fair, it’s been two years, there should be more shinies. But I like your “the players are spoiled children” philosophy I’m sure that will win over converts.
This sums up all the arguments for change. Some players feel they deserve everything NOW, regardless of the consequences. There’s a term for this, but it escapes me at the moment…
Condescension? No, something else. . .
*In this context referring to the higher end ones, not the lower end ones, to had of pedantry.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
And yes, I don’t care about the impact.
This sums up all the arguments for change. Some players feel they deserve everything NOW, regardless of the consequences. There’s a term for this, but it escapes me at the moment…
False generalization? Taking an anecdote as evidence of the population?
Ohoni may have stated (many times) about not caring about the economic impact. That doesn’t mean the entire argument is invalid, nor does it mean proponents want to see the economy crash and burn just so that everyone has their shinies.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
I think raising a child would be a better example. Parents have different perspective than children. If you give in to every demand you end up with a child who eats nothing but cake and candy, stays up until midnight every night, never goes to school or takes a bath, etc. The child doesn’t understand the importance of a balanced diet, proper hygiene and getting rest and education, he is focused only on what he wants now and does not appreciate the big picture.
Likewise, if Anet gives players what they want right now they will quickly become bored with what they have and want more. So devs will need to either introduce a gear treadmill to keep players distracted by the new shiny or see the game population dwindle because they already have all the shinies.
the problem is people arent asking for it right now, they are asking for a way to achieve it.
Lets say a kid wants a bike, but you want him to learn to have long term goals and work for it.
you tell him he has 3 methods;
win the lotto.
every time he goes to school, he can deal himself 5 cards, if he gets a full house, he gets the bike.
make enough money to buy 1000 shares in micron technology in a lump sum. lets say its currently valued at 600 dollars but is showing a growth of 300% over the last 18 months.
one might say, hmm why dont you just tell him you ll get him the bike if he gets all As, this year, or tell him if he helps the old lady down the block for a month. Or helps his mom around the house until summer or something.
The key is anet should figure out what is the ingame purpose of precursors, and design a system that encourages the type of play they would like to incentivize, that is satisfying for most players.
The issue not just about how to implement any type of Precursor crafting and/or Scavenger Hunt, but also with what will happen to the economy should that happen. The delay here is probably due to factors that us BLTP lurkers have foreseen, which is a very big shock to the market.
The system can’t just be to satisfy most players. It has to satisfy most players while not breaking economy, while still adhering to Anet’s internal vision of the game.
1) Is precursor crafting something being held back because of technical concerns or because of economic concerns, ie a massive surge in demand for certain types of materials? I know you’re limited in what you can speculate, but I have a theory that the crafting is largely being held back because legendaries and precursors are possibly the biggest driving force of the economy and a change in how they function could cause massive waves. Wanted to know if I was correct in this.
1. All I will say about this is that any discussion about precursors, that I’m involved in, involves a discussion about the materials and markets involved.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
This sums up all the arguments for change. Some players feel they deserve everything NOW, regardless of the consequences. There’s a term for this, but it escapes me at the moment…
No, it really doesn’t. Not even close. The argument that precursors should be easier to acquire is a very specific argument. And it is not the same as arguing that precursor acquisition should be more akin to ascended crafting, in that acquisition would be a moderately reliable path, rather than being rooted in RNG.
There’s a term for misrepresenting the arguments at hand to further your agenda of maintaining the status quo, but it escapes me at the moment…
Wait, never mind. I got it. Dishonesty.
Or words to that effect.
The issue not just about how to implement any type of Precursor crafting and/or Scavenger Hunt, but also with what will happen to the economy should that happen. The delay here is probably due to factors that us BLTP lurkers have foreseen, which is a very big shock to the market.
The system can’t just be to satisfy most players. It has to satisfy most players while not breaking economy, while still adhering to Anet’s internal vision of the game.
1) Is precursor crafting something being held back because of technical concerns or because of economic concerns, ie a massive surge in demand for certain types of materials? I know you’re limited in what you can speculate, but I have a theory that the crafting is largely being held back because legendaries and precursors are possibly the biggest driving force of the economy and a change in how they function could cause massive waves. Wanted to know if I was correct in this.
1. All I will say about this is that any discussion about precursors, that I’m involved in, involves a discussion about the materials and markets involved.
That’s common sense. Most seem to comprehend that other things will have to be balanced if something like that were to occur. On that understanding they know that it is still a possibility.
I’m not sure why there is a train of thought that “it cannot be done because other things would have to be balanced too”. That’s nonsense plain and simply put.
Serenity now~Insanity later
The system can’t just be to satisfy most players. It has to satisfy most players while not breaking economy, while still adhering to Anet’s internal vision of the game.
No. If it satisfies most players, then it’s a win. The economy does not exist for itself, it only exists to satisfy most players. If the market is failing at that, then it deserves to die. If both can be saved, then all the better, but we can’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
The system can’t just be to satisfy most players. It has to satisfy most players while not breaking economy, while still adhering to Anet’s internal vision of the game.
No. If it satisfies most players, then it’s a win. The economy does not exist for itself, it only exists to satisfy most players. If the market is failing at that, then it deserves to die. If both can be saved, then all the better, but we can’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.
The economy does benefit the majority of players. Precursors are not the only items in the economy.
The economy does benefit the majority of players. Precursors are not the only items in the economy.
They just need to explain the risks to people, "we’re planning to do [something] that will drop the prices of all precursors into the 50-250g range. This will likely cause a secondary drop in the price of [items X, Y, and Z] because much of their trading value is based on gambling for Precursors under the current model. It would also cause a rise in [items A, B, and C], which are needed to craft Legendaries out of those Precursors. Understanding this, however, we have made [this correction to those item’s availability and/or relative necessity] that should balance them out to roughly the same market value.
The final result will be cheaper Precursors, more common Legendaries, cheaper [items X, Y, and Z], and roughly equivalent pricing on [items A, B, and C]. Now, if you think this is ok, vote Yes, if you think it would be bad, vote No."
Maybe make it an ingame story thing, Evon Gnashblade has been hoarding Precursors to keep the market prices high and Kiel’s on to him, but understanding the risks involved she puts it in Tyria’s hands, do they throw the Precursors into Mt Maelstrom to maintain market stability, or do they throw them into the Mystic Forge in a ritual that will cause them to be distributed into the loot pool?* Dump account-bound, activity-earned tokens into respective baskets.
*or however they prefer to justify it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
The economy does benefit the majority of players. Precursors are not the only items in the economy.
Side note: I’m quite happy with the economy as a whole. I’m glad enough to sell my bits and bobs, and in other MMOs, I’ve always been a materials supplier. So yeah, the economy works. I’d hate to see that ruined by a hasty precursor implementation.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
There is evidence that they do listen, they have changed numerous other areas of the game as they’ve gone.
They will listen if the ideas don’t directly oppose their goals and values. They strive to minimize the impact game changes have on market stability. Your suggesting they do whatever is necessary to appease players regardless of consequence to the market stability … it’s completely obtuse.
It would be like pushing for democracy in N Korea.
How awful.
That’s another obtuse answer. My point is that it’s simply not going to happen by the powers that be … just like current Anet isn’t going to allow anarchy to reign in a segment of the game where they value stability. Do you even realize they have hired well educated and knowledgeable staff to simply monitor the economy and suggest adjustments to minimize instabilities? All the signs are there, you just ignore them thinking there is a chance in hell someone at Anet listens to you.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Making players happy while sacrificing the health of the game is counter productive. It’s sorta like a situation where you have a family that can barely make ends meet, and their child wants that Xbox. The child cries for the Xbox, not caring that his parents have to work 2 jobs to pay the rent. But the parents know better, and while they can’t make their child happy in that moment with an Xbox, the family is better off by focusing on their long term goals.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Making players happy while sacrificing the health of the game is counter productive. It’s sorta like a situation where you have a family that can barely make ends meet, and their child wants that Xbox. The child cries for the Xbox, not caring that his parents have to work 2 jobs to pay the rent. But the parents know better, and while they can’t make their child happy in that moment with an Xbox, the family is better off by focusing on their long term goals.
I would say it’s more like a family where the father or mother works all the time under the premise that more money makes everything better, but forgoing on the relationship. The significant other grows discontent and starts looking outside the marriage for what they have been missing. Things don’t change and no extra work is put into the relationship side of things and next thing you know, the unhappy partner has left for greener pastures, b/c money is not everything.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Money is not everything, so the unhappy partner should understand they’re not Entitled to optional luxury purchases. Just because you can’t get the new Mustang convertible, doesn’t mean the relationship should end over a used Honda Fit.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
That’s another obtuse answer. My point is that it’s simply not going to happen by the powers that be … just like current Anet isn’t going to allow anarchy to reign in a segment of the game where they value stability. Do you even realize they have hired well educated and knowledgeable staff to simply monitor the economy and suggest adjustments to minimize instabilities? All the signs are there, you just ignore them thinking there is a chance in hell someone at Anet listens to you.
I’m aware that they have an economist on staff, but still, the game’s economy exists in service of the players, not the other way around, so if someone up the chain says “ok, they’ve suffered enough, let’s give them more Precursors,” then it’s not the economist’s job to tell him “no,” (or at least it shouldn’t be), it should be the economist’s job to say ok, if we’re going to do that, then here is the best possible route that would fulfill that goal with the minimal stress to the economy. Look at Ascended crafting and account bound dyes as an example of this principle in action.
Making players happy while sacrificing the health of the game is counter productive.
The economy is not the game. Many of the issues around this sub-forum stem from a misunderstanding of that fact.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I’m aware that they have an economist on staff, but still, the game’s economy exists in service of the players, not the other way around, so if someone up the chain says “ok, they’ve suffered enough, let’s give them more Precursors,” then it’s not the economist’s job to tell him “no,” (or at least it shouldn’t be), it should be the economist’s job to say ok, if we’re going to do that, then here is the best possible route that would fulfill that goal with the minimal stress to the economy. Look at Ascended crafting and account bound dyes as an example of this principle in action.
That’s a nice story … that doesn’t change the fact that Anet isn’t going to purposefully introduce anarchy into the market to appease players when they dedicate specific and valued resources to ensure destabilizing effects on the market are avoided and minimized.
The economy is not the game. Many of the issues around this sub-forum stem from a misunderstanding of that fact.
Funny, the exact same thing can be said about legendaries.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
The economy is not the game. Many of the issues around this sub-forum stem from a misunderstanding of that fact.
Funny, the exact same thing can be said about legendaries.
What arenanet should learn is that something like this (high endgame cosmetics) should not be put behind a paywall. Everyone who played for example 1000 hours of this game should be able to get a legendary, because if not a legendary is worse than a full time job and nobody wants that whilst they’re playing a game.
Make alternative ways to get a precursor: e.g. buy them with dungeon tokens, buy them with badges of glory, buy them with laurels, buy them with karma etc etc etc
If you disagree… well too bad for you.
What arenanet should learn is that something like this (high endgame cosmetics) should not be put behind a paywall. Everyone who played for example 1000 hours of this game should be able to get a legendary, because if not a legendary is worse than a full time job and nobody wants that whilst they’re playing a game.
Make alternative ways to get a precursor: e.g. buy them with dungeon tokens, buy them with badges of glory, buy them with laurels, buy them with karma etc etc etc
If you disagree… well too bad for you.
Yay, lets all get a legendary, after letting secondary accounts go afk for 1000 hours.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
What arenanet should learn is that something like this (high endgame cosmetics) should not be put behind a paywall. Everyone who played for example 1000 hours of this game should be able to get a legendary, because if not a legendary is worse than a full time job and nobody wants that whilst they’re playing a game.
Make alternative ways to get a precursor: e.g. buy them with dungeon tokens, buy them with badges of glory, buy them with laurels, buy them with karma etc etc etc
If you disagree… well too bad for you.
Yay, lets all get a legendary, after letting secondary accounts go afk for 1000 hours.
I’d buy that for a dollar.
Then transfer it to my main account so everyone can know how hard I afk’d worked for it. Lol.
(edited by Astral Projections.7320)
What arenanet should learn is that something like this (high endgame cosmetics) should not be put behind a paywall. Everyone who played for example 1000 hours of this game should be able to get a legendary, because if not a legendary is worse than a full time job and nobody wants that whilst they’re playing a game.
Make alternative ways to get a precursor: e.g. buy them with dungeon tokens, buy them with badges of glory, buy them with laurels, buy them with karma etc etc etc
If you disagree… well too bad for you.
If you have played for 1000 hours and made 1.5 gold per hour you would have 1,500 gold. Currently, all precursors can be purchased for less than 1,500 gold at sell offers.
And I would argue that gold is a token since all tokens are just another form of currency.
Congratulations on your precursor.