Guild Wars 2

Well it’s finally settled, I am moving to China in order to finally WIN this game. Thanks!

insaneseagull.7063:

Beldin.5498:

The whole Teleport System is also already P2W .. you pay to be faster at your target.

This teleport system is on a massive cooldown,8 hours and 1 hour. Have you ever heard about waypoints? They are these special thingys which teleport you everywhere in the world,and if your friend isn’t excactly on the point,it’ll take you maybe 5 minutes max to get to him.
If not they have removed waypoints in the chinese version?….

With teleport system i meant indead the WAYPOINTs. Using Waypoints is P2W if paying to save a little time is P2W for people here.

You get the joke now ?

Essence Snow.3194:

In his or her 1st example the problem was time. Time gates mean a lot when you cannot buy around them, yet next to nothing when you can.

The analogy about the sky and cake is way off….btw, since time completely relates to the matter at hand.

Not sure if serious. So if I take a day off from work in order to play GW2, the game is now P2W? It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy!

Wanze.8410:

Pre Cursor prices have been stable for over 6 months now and I dont remember anybody from Anet stating that they think they are overpriced in the last 6 months.

Legendaries in general got more expensive in the last 6 months, that is true. But that is due to the ingredients for the gifts in general rising in price, not because of precursors.

this was over a year ago, when they started to hit 300g and kept rising some are more than twice that now. they said they were going to address it and haven’t. they keep stringing us along with posts like

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

" you will see a specific way to build precursor items on your way to a legendary. On top of this, you’ll also see new legendary weapons and new types of legendary gear in 2013."

and then do nothing

Shadow Blade.1324:

Wanze.8410:

Pre Cursor prices have been stable for over 6 months now and I dont remember anybody from Anet stating that they think they are overpriced in the last 6 months.

Legendaries in general got more expensive in the last 6 months, that is true. But that is due to the ingredients for the gifts in general rising in price, not because of precursors.

this was over a year ago, when they started to hit 300g and kept rising some are more than twice that now. they said they were going to address it and haven’t. they keep stringing us along with posts like

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

" you will see a specific way to build precursor items on your way to a legendary. On top of this, you’ll also see new legendary weapons and new types of legendary gear in 2013."
and then do nothing

Do you have a quote and a date when a dev said they think precursor prices are too high? Becaue im pretty sure that inbetween that statement and now, they made several adjustments towards precursors:

A slight adjustment in general for precursor droprates in general in 2012, high droprate during the Lost Shores Meta event, additional loot tables with the introduction of world boss chests and champ bags.

Personally, i am also waiting for the scavenger hunt, I just think that your argumentation, that Anet doesnt release this in order to sell more gems, is flawed, because if they would release it, prices for Legendaries would skyrocket due to material shortages, which would mean that Anet could sell even more gems.

Shadow Blade.1324:

Wanze.8410:

Pre Cursor prices have been stable for over 6 months now and I dont remember anybody from Anet stating that they think they are overpriced in the last 6 months.

Legendaries in general got more expensive in the last 6 months, that is true. But that is due to the ingredients for the gifts in general rising in price, not because of precursors.

this was over a year ago, when they started to hit 300g and kept rising some are more than twice that now. they said they were going to address it and haven’t. they keep stringing us along with posts like

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

" you will see a specific way to build precursor items on your way to a legendary. On top of this, you’ll also see new legendary weapons and new types of legendary gear in 2013."

and then do nothing

I’m quite certain they said they’re changing it because the current method is just incredibly cheesy, not because of the price. And many bloggers and stuff for GW2 have said that apparently they’re going to make the whole quest thing rather long and difficult. It’s not going to be some 24 hour thing. They’re going to do in a way where the prices don’t drop too much, but the acquisition is more consistent.

What I’m hoping is each boss has a unique sort of legendary “Tome of Quip” (I believe some items were datamined too) item it drops, and that acquiring it requires you to do certain conditions for the boss or pre-event. Meeting those conditions allows you a reasonable chance at that tome or whatever, which starts a story chain towards that item. Then, certain events and bosses will have special drops relevant to that chain and you’ll collect those and assemble them into a number of stages ending in a precursor (Like spinal blades chain) and that the last step will be the gifts and items that fuse together into ________.

I also imagine they’ll introduce it when they introduce new legendaries.

Shadow Blade.1324:

this was over a year ago, when they started to hit 300g and kept rising some are more than twice that now. they said they were going to address it and haven’t. they keep stringing us along with posts like

The prices mainly went up for 100% or whatever, when they announced ascended weapons and the new legendarys with changeable stats.

isn’t a monthly fee essentially pay2win……

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

In his or her 1st example the problem was time. Time gates mean a lot when you cannot buy around them, yet next to nothing when you can.

The analogy about the sky and cake is way off….btw, since time completely relates to the matter at hand.

Not sure if serious. So if I take a day off from work in order to play GW2, the game is now P2W? It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy!

I can spell it out if needed.

That aside: The main issue I see here is that people have different ideas of what P2W is. Since there really is no definitive definition of the term, at a point it is open to individual interpretation. This causes all kinds of problems specially in this sort of format. I see that for some it’s defined as an A-Y vs Z issue, while for others an A vs B-X issue. To further elaborate: win in the former is only Z, only the final determinate. In the latter win is an advantage, so the levels of win range from B-X. I’m sure there are other groups, but for the sake of simplicity I’ll just leave this to those.

I’ll try to explain the latter since it is the opposition.

In the latter it applies if an advantage is available for purchase. P2W here is a general descriptive terminology for something where this is a possibility. The amount or level of advantage does not matter. If there is one at all regardless of measurement it falls into P2W (paying for an advantage). In gw2 we have clever wording like convenience, which happens to be a synonym for advantage. Ergo paying for convenience is paying for advantage or P2W. So from this standpoint GW2 has always been P2W. Now the debate of “to what extent” (minor-major scaling), is a related, yet separate debate. Sort of like considering plants. Is a certain one a tree yes or no? If so, is it a 1in sapling or is it General Sherman or the Hyperion. The scaling (although massive) doesn’t apply to whether or not it is a tree.

“Does it make a difference if I can or cannot succeed in a scenario?”

This to me is the essential “is it win” question.

Things that save me time are valuable, certainly, but they are not involved in win/lose thresholds.

If VIPs got an extra armor slot, with the potential of adding 200ish stat points, yeah, I’d scream bloody murder. An expanded endurance bar that can hold up to 3 dodges? That’s a winning edge. Faster travel in PvE zones? Sure it nice, but its a convenience not an advantage.

For Gw2 to be P2W to me, they would have to do something like gate t6 or ascended mats behind the gemstore, require gems to unlock certain skills, or introduce a new combat mechanic that requires the gemstore to fully utilize.

^And even then, gw2 still probably wont be as P2W as some other games out there.

John Smith.4610:

Pie Flavor.1647:

And why do they have more disposable income? I thought the entire concept of First World meant that people on the First World would have more disposable income, yet again, a “statistic” not backed by any source

Economic Sidebar: While I don’t know about “First World” as a concept, there are several official ways in which economic development is measured.

continue on.

Great way to derail a completely useless topic (as it has nothing to do with the gem store I use in GW2) a little faster into off topic territory.

Essence Snow.3194:

~~~ snip ~~~

While it’s true everyone is free to interpret how the term “P2W” means, there’s only one true meaning, thus making everyone’s interpretation wrong.

In Asian gaming cultures, Paying 2 Win is a way to reward players prestigious or powerful items if they spent real money on the game. A powerful sword, an exclusive game card, extra HP, access to exclusive areas, etc. These offerings are not made to non-paying players. This business strategy forces people to have to spend real money in order to get the “VIP” treatment.

P2W is not a convenience . P2W is Paying to Win. The term “win” is also not open to interpretations. In PvP, winning means you defeated your opponents. In PvE, winning means you killed the boss. When a game company offers an item that makes “winning” easy, and these items can only be obtained through real money purchases, then the game is P2W.

Here are questions to determine if something is P2W:
1) Does it give you a statistical advantage in game?
2) Does it cost real money?
3) Is it only available to paying players?
If the answer to all three questions is “yes”, then it’s P2W.

Guild Wars, and Guild Wars 2 has never been, and hopefully never will be P2W. Having a fancy armor skin is not “winning”, as it fails #1. Running faster for an hour is not “winning”, as it does not count towards #1 since combat nullifies speed boosts. +5% damage or defense boosters? Oooooh that can be considered P2W. BUT, it fails #3, as all players are able to access this via Gold to Gem exchanges.

The Chinese GW2 comes close to P2W, but I don’t think they crossed that line yet. We’ll find out soon when official launch comes, and the Gem Store offerings are made public.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

~~~ snip ~~~

While it’s true everyone is free to interpret how the term “P2W” means, there’s only one true meaning, thus making everyone’s interpretation wrong.

In Asian gaming cultures, Paying 2 Win is a way to reward players prestigious or powerful items if they spent real money on the game. A powerful sword, an exclusive game card, extra HP, access to exclusive areas, etc. These offerings are not made to non-paying players. This business strategy forces people to have to spend real money in order to get the “VIP” treatment.

P2W is not a convenience . P2W is Paying to Win. The term “win” is also not open to interpretations. In PvP, winning means you defeated your opponents. In PvE, winning means you killed the boss. When a game company offers an item that makes “winning” easy, and these items can only be obtained through real money purchases, then the game is P2W.

Here are questions to determine if something is P2W:
1) Does it give you a statistical advantage in game?
2) Does it cost real money?
3) Is it only available to paying players?
If the answer to all three questions is “yes”, then it’s P2W.

Guild Wars, and Guild Wars 2 has never been, and hopefully never will be P2W. Having a fancy armor skin is not “winning”, as it fails #1. Running faster for an hour is not “winning”, as it does not count towards #1 since combat nullifies speed boosts. +5% damage or defense boosters? Oooooh that can be considered P2W. BUT, it fails #3, as all players are able to access this via Gold to Gem exchanges.

The Chinese GW2 comes close to P2W, but I don’t think they crossed that line yet. We’ll find out soon when official launch comes, and the Gem Store offerings are made public.

Please by all means reference this " one true meaning". Given your whole premise is based from it, I would assume you have access to it.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

~~~ snip ~~~

While it’s true everyone is free to interpret how the term “P2W” means, there’s only one true meaning, thus making everyone’s interpretation wrong.

In Asian gaming cultures, Paying 2 Win is a way to reward players prestigious or powerful items if they spent real money on the game. A powerful sword, an exclusive game card, extra HP, access to exclusive areas, etc. These offerings are not made to non-paying players. This business strategy forces people to have to spend real money in order to get the “VIP” treatment.

P2W is not a convenience . P2W is Paying to Win. The term “win” is also not open to interpretations. In PvP, winning means you defeated your opponents. In PvE, winning means you killed the boss. When a game company offers an item that makes “winning” easy, and these items can only be obtained through real money purchases, then the game is P2W.

Here are questions to determine if something is P2W:
1) Does it give you a statistical advantage in game?
2) Does it cost real money?
3) Is it only available to paying players?
If the answer to all three questions is “yes”, then it’s P2W.

Guild Wars, and Guild Wars 2 has never been, and hopefully never will be P2W. Having a fancy armor skin is not “winning”, as it fails #1. Running faster for an hour is not “winning”, as it does not count towards #1 since combat nullifies speed boosts. +5% damage or defense boosters? Oooooh that can be considered P2W. BUT, it fails #3, as all players are able to access this via Gold to Gem exchanges.

The Chinese GW2 comes close to P2W, but I don’t think they crossed that line yet. We’ll find out soon when official launch comes, and the Gem Store offerings are made public.

Please by all means reference this " one true meaning". Given your whole premise is based from it, I would assume you have access to it.

Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.

I don’t buy into the “only available via cash” requirement. By that logic if it we available by any amount of ig gold (for example), like 1million gold for a statistical advantage, then by that exemption it wouldn’t be P2W even though the ig amount is preposterous.

Essence Snow.3194:

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.

I don’t buy into the “only available via cash” requirement. By that logic if it we available by any amount of ig gold (for example), like 1million gold for a statistical advantage, then by that exemption it wouldn’t be P2W even though the ig amount is preposterous.

ok, let me explain on a childish yet simple way:
player 1 doesn’t have money to pay for in-game stuff
player 2 has loads of money to pay for in-game stuff

there is an item in the gem store that gives you the ability to do 100DMG x level, it’s impossible to get this normally in-game.
player 1 can’t buy this item, player 2 buys about 20 of them for each character.
now player 2 has the advantage against player 1, no matter what player 1 tried it’s impossible to win against player 2 because of this item.

that’s the true definition of P2W, you buy something in the store that gives you the advantage over anyone who doesn’t buy that item.

sorudo.9054:

that’s the true definition of P2W, you buy something in the store that gives you the advantage over anyone who doesn’t buy that item.

But player 2 will buy a pickaxe, mine aaaaallll that millions of sprockets and throws player 1 to death with all those sprockets

sorudo.9054:

Essence Snow.3194:

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.

I don’t buy into the “only available via cash” requirement. By that logic if it we available by any amount of ig gold (for example), like 1million gold for a statistical advantage, then by that exemption it wouldn’t be P2W even though the ig amount is preposterous.

ok, let me explain on a childish yet simple way:
player 1 doesn’t have money to pay for in-game stuff
player 2 has loads of money to pay for in-game stuff

there is an item in the gem store that gives you the ability to do 100DMG x level, it’s impossible to get this normally in-game.
player 1 can’t buy this item, player 2 buys about 20 of them for each character.
now player 2 has the advantage against player 1, no matter what player 1 tried it’s impossible to win against player 2 because of this item.

that’s the true definition of P2W, you buy something in the store that gives you the advantage over anyone who doesn’t buy that item.

Here’s the kicker…..you simply don’t have any thing backing up that definition, so it’s no more valid then the next. I understand what you think is the definition. It’s not hard to figure out what you mean. I simply don’t believe your definition is any more valid than anyone else’s based on you have nothing to back it up. I’ll repeat…..no reference material, no authority, or legality to cite opens the definition of P2W to debate. And atm ya’’ll have not concreted the validity of your opinions to fact, thus are no more correct in your definition.

Edit: Had to add this note as evidently it’s hard to figure out. I’m not saying that an example where Joe Smoe buys a +200 sword is not p2w when that sword is not available anywhere but via rl cash and is beyond anything else. What I am saying is that is not the only aspect of P2W, the only parameters, that P2W extends beyond what some have decided it may or may not include.

Essence Snow.3194:

sorudo.9054:

Essence Snow.3194:

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.

I don’t buy into the “only available via cash” requirement. By that logic if it we available by any amount of ig gold (for example), like 1million gold for a statistical advantage, then by that exemption it wouldn’t be P2W even though the ig amount is preposterous.

ok, let me explain on a childish yet simple way:
player 1 doesn’t have money to pay for in-game stuff
player 2 has loads of money to pay for in-game stuff

there is an item in the gem store that gives you the ability to do 100DMG x level, it’s impossible to get this normally in-game.
player 1 can’t buy this item, player 2 buys about 20 of them for each character.
now player 2 has the advantage against player 1, no matter what player 1 tried it’s impossible to win against player 2 because of this item.

that’s the true definition of P2W, you buy something in the store that gives you the advantage over anyone who doesn’t buy that item.

Here’s the kicker…..you simply don’t have any thing backing up that definition, so it’s no more valid then the next. I understand what you think is the definition. It’s not hard to figure out what you mean. I simply don’t believe your definition is any more valid than anyone else’s based on you have nothing to back it up. I’ll repeat…..no reference material, no authority, or legality to cite opens the definition of P2W to debate. And atm ya’’ll have not concreted the validity of your opinions to fact, thus are no more correct in your definition.

Sorry mate. Our definition of P2W is the correct one. You may not fully understand the Asian game culture, but there’s a reason why Pay 2 Win games exist. It’s to prey upon the egos of players willing to throw endless money for virtual goods to be “the best player evar”. Certain players are willing to pay for these statistical advantages because they guarantee “wins”. Advantages not available to non-paying players.

Guild Wars 2 is not such a game. I can’t “win” from having a mining tool that gives me magical sprockets. I can’t “win” from running around out-of-combat faster. And I could win from having a +5% damage boost, but so can everyone else, thus not P2W.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

sorudo.9054:

Essence Snow.3194:

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.

I don’t buy into the “only available via cash” requirement. By that logic if it we available by any amount of ig gold (for example), like 1million gold for a statistical advantage, then by that exemption it wouldn’t be P2W even though the ig amount is preposterous.

ok, let me explain on a childish yet simple way:
player 1 doesn’t have money to pay for in-game stuff
player 2 has loads of money to pay for in-game stuff

there is an item in the gem store that gives you the ability to do 100DMG x level, it’s impossible to get this normally in-game.
player 1 can’t buy this item, player 2 buys about 20 of them for each character.
now player 2 has the advantage against player 1, no matter what player 1 tried it’s impossible to win against player 2 because of this item.

that’s the true definition of P2W, you buy something in the store that gives you the advantage over anyone who doesn’t buy that item.

Here’s the kicker…..you simply don’t have any thing backing up that definition, so it’s no more valid then the next. I understand what you think is the definition. It’s not hard to figure out what you mean. I simply don’t believe your definition is any more valid than anyone else’s based on you have nothing to back it up. I’ll repeat…..no reference material, no authority, or legality to cite opens the definition of P2W to debate. And atm ya’’ll have not concreted the validity of your opinions to fact, thus are no more correct in your definition.

Sorry mate. Our definition of P2W is the correct one. You may not fully understand the Asian game culture, but there’s a reason why Pay 2 Win games exist. It’s to prey upon the egos of players willing to throw endless money for virtual goods to be “the best player evar”. Certain players are willing to pay for these statistical advantages because they guarantee “wins”. Advantages not available to non-paying players.

Guild Wars 2 is not such a game. I can’t “win” from having a mining tool that gives me magical sprockets. I can’t “win” from running around out-of-combat faster. And I could win from having a +5% damage boost, but so can everyone else, thus not P2W.

Again the burden of proof falls upon you since you claim something as fact. Since not one of you can prove this “definitive definition” it simply isn’t. Not a hard concept..at least I thought. But by all means try that same stance anywhere else and see how far it’ll get ya. I’d be more than confident that it wouldn’t get ya very far. “It is that way because we say it is”…ya not gonna fly.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

sorudo.9054:

Essence Snow.3194:

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.

I don’t buy into the “only available via cash” requirement. By that logic if it we available by any amount of ig gold (for example), like 1million gold for a statistical advantage, then by that exemption it wouldn’t be P2W even though the ig amount is preposterous.

ok, let me explain on a childish yet simple way:
player 1 doesn’t have money to pay for in-game stuff
player 2 has loads of money to pay for in-game stuff

there is an item in the gem store that gives you the ability to do 100DMG x level, it’s impossible to get this normally in-game.
player 1 can’t buy this item, player 2 buys about 20 of them for each character.
now player 2 has the advantage against player 1, no matter what player 1 tried it’s impossible to win against player 2 because of this item.

that’s the true definition of P2W, you buy something in the store that gives you the advantage over anyone who doesn’t buy that item.

Here’s the kicker…..you simply don’t have any thing backing up that definition, so it’s no more valid then the next. I understand what you think is the definition. It’s not hard to figure out what you mean. I simply don’t believe your definition is any more valid than anyone else’s based on you have nothing to back it up. I’ll repeat…..no reference material, no authority, or legality to cite opens the definition of P2W to debate. And atm ya’’ll have not concreted the validity of your opinions to fact, thus are no more correct in your definition.

Sorry mate. Our definition of P2W is the correct one. You may not fully understand the Asian game culture, but there’s a reason why Pay 2 Win games exist. It’s to prey upon the egos of players willing to throw endless money for virtual goods to be “the best player evar”. Certain players are willing to pay for these statistical advantages because they guarantee “wins”. Advantages not available to non-paying players.

Guild Wars 2 is not such a game. I can’t “win” from having a mining tool that gives me magical sprockets. I can’t “win” from running around out-of-combat faster. And I could win from having a +5% damage boost, but so can everyone else, thus not P2W.

Again the burden of proof falls upon you since you claim something as fact. Since not one of you can prove this “definitive definition” it simply isn’t. Not a hard concept..at least I thought. But by all means try that same stance anywhere else and see how far it’ll get ya. I’d be more than confident that it wouldn’t get ya very far. “It is that way because we say it is”…ya not gonna fly.

There’s no burden of proof needed, since I’m correct. I’ve already laid out examples in previous posts.

Can’t stop laughing………………………………

Pay = provide compensation for
to = preposition used to express motion toward a point
Win = to achieve victory

Granted, the proof requires a degree of English competency, but it’s right there in the name.

Kick=strike or propel forcibly with the foot. or in this case: succeed in giving up (a habit or addiction).
The =used to point forward to a following qualifying or defining clause or phrase
Bucket=a roughly cylindrical open container, typically made of metal or plastic, with a handle, used to hold and carry liquids or other material.

yep that couldn’t possibly apply to someone dying………………………lol

I leave you to figure out the correlation between that and the case at hand (maybe I should do case at hand as well…lol)

mtpelion.4562:

Pay = provide compensation for
to = preposition used to express motion toward a point
Win = to achieve victory

Granted, the proof requires a degree of English competency, but it’s right there in the name.

My wife has a Masters degree in English, and she approves of this. She’s much smarter than I, so I have no choice but to believe her.

Essence Snow.3194:

Kick=strike or propel forcibly with the foot. or in this case: succeed in giving up (a habit or addiction).
The =used to point forward to a following qualifying or defining clause or phrase
Bucket=a roughly cylindrical open container, typically made of metal or plastic, with a handle, used to hold and carry liquids or other material.

yep that couldn’t possibly apply to someone dying………………………lol

I leave you to figure out the correlation between that and the case at hand (maybe I should do case at hand as well…lol)

The obvious difference between “Pay to Win” and “Kick the Bucket” is that one is an explanation of a concept that perfectly fits the definition of the sum of its parts while the other is an idiom.

Correlation* key word…lol. and you suggest I have an English competency issue.

Beat – strike (a person or an animal) repeatedly and violently so as to hurt or injure them, usually with an implement such as a club or whip.

Dead – no longer alive or living

Horse – one of two extant subspecies of Equus ferus. It is an odd-toed ungulate mammal belonging to the taxonomic family Equidae.

Edit – Someone asked me to clarify what this means. The phrase is an idiom that means a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed or otherwise resolved, and any attempt to continue it is futile; or that to continue in any endeavour (physical, mental, etc.) is a waste of time as the outcome is already decided.

Essence Snow.3194:

Correlation* key word…lol. and you suggest I have an English competency issue.

I pointed out that your correlation is invalid as you are comparing an explicit description to an idiom, which are two completely different things.

Apples and oranges, to use another idiom…

The correlation was: In English there are words with multiple meanings like idioms for example. It is proof that explicit descriptions are not the only validity for a given words or sum of words unless otherwise noted.

I figure we will be infracted soon, which will end the beating of this horse, but only that since ya’lls arguments are not cutting the mustard in terms of being definitive.

Nuance.4872:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

mtpelion.4562:

Pay = provide compensation for
to = preposition used to express motion toward a point
Win = to achieve victory

Granted, the proof requires a degree of English competency, but it’s right there in the name.

My wife has a Masters degree in English, and she approves of this. She’s much smarter than I, so I have no choice but to believe her.

[Citation Needed]

Would a copy of her long form Birth Certificate suffice?

Nuance.4872:

So still no definition of pay too win has been provided with a source?

I am my own source, as my expertise in Asian gaming culture is quite extensive. I’ve played P2W games before, and can tell you without a doubt that GW2 is nowhere close to being P2W.

To add, Farmville and other FB games are not P2W as well. They’ve come up in debates before, so I’m just shooting that argument down preemptively.

Nuance.4872:

I am also an expert in Asian gaming culture and have quite extensive expertise in the field. Wow that was easy. I am not lying, what kind of person would post made up things on a forum, especially if they provided nothing to backup said posts.

Thing is, I’m right. That trumps pretty much all arguments. I even went as far as giving the scientific equation to determine what a P2W game is. I’ll quote it below for reference:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Here are questions to determine if something is P2W:

1) Does it give you a statistical advantage in game?
2) Does it cost real money?
3) Is it only available to paying players?

If the answer to all three questions is “yes”, then it’s P2W.

Nuance.4872:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nuance.4872:

I am also an expert in Asian gaming culture and have quite extensive expertise in the field. Wow that was easy. I am not lying, what kind of person would post made up things on a forum, especially if they provided nothing to backup said posts.

Thing is, I’m right. That trumps pretty much all arguments. I even went as far as giving the scientific equation to determine what a P2W game is. I’ll quote it below for reference:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Here are questions to determine if something is P2W:

1) Does it give you a statistical advantage in game?
2) Does it cost real money?
3) Is it only available to paying players?

If the answer to all three questions is “yes”, then it’s P2W.

Thing is I disagree with that statement (Its not an equation I know this because i asked someones wife who has a masters in science), if it costs real money then it can only ever be available to paying players, making 3 redundant. Since your statement is flawed it is wrong.

Actually, in GW2, there’s a thing called the Gem Exchange, where you can convert in game Gold to real money bought Gem currency. Thus by allowing paying and non-paying customers access to the same things across the board, Guild Wars 2 is not P2W.

Again, this isn’t up for debate. Realize that any argument you make counter to mine, is in essence wrong.

^^ KABLAMO … people tend to forget this and it’s extremely significant in this discuission.

Every player has access to gemstore items, regardless of how you want to pay for it. You can label it what you wish, but owning an item that anyone can purchase is not ‘winning’. It’s as much winning as the kid who gets the participation award for being last place in a race.

Give the Chinese game P2W. Who cares? LOL geeeze go play the game for a change…

I don’t know I think a lot of you posters are getting caught up in semantics and not seeing the real issues here. There was a statement by the Chinese publisher that it’s version would not have VIP status (basically P2W if you’re not too swift.) Shortly after that, VIP status was alive and well in the Chinese GW2 beta. You can imagine if you’ve been connecting to EU or NA servers as a Chinese or South East Asian player that you have a real taste of what GW2 we enjoy is like, what is acceptable as additional cost via Gem Store, etc. The Chinese beta so far is something that bears the title of GW2 in name and design aesthetic only. Really read that reddit article instead of badgering the OP. There’s a reason why this thread hasn’t been closed already, though an Arenanet employee has commented on it.

The OP is concerned about the Chinese gaming market and how some seem to be getting exploited over there. Cultural differences and gaming markets aside, if a user base is being exploited, that effects everyone that enjoys this game. You and me. I’m fine with this being in general discussion, but I must say that some of the usual names I see in this thread have disappointed me with their self-centered statements. “Who cares? it’s China” Really? I don’t want any gamer that enjoys this game at a disadvantage when I play with them or face them in PvP. It also sets a callous precedent for how this game may change in ways us western players would be weeping and ranting about if the same were instituted in our version of GW2.

The real question is why Arenanet or NCSoft would be okay with the new gem store gating put into play for the Chinese release only? Do they find it an acceptable negative so that the Chinese publisher has enough financial power to destroy those who may exploit the Chinese servers or clone GW2 content? Are we really okay with Chinese GW2 players being bled dry as long as we get great new content, expansions, or whatever? That’s what I’m really concerned about and I will always be okay with players looking out for other players.

Probably they were requested to add in the code to gate content by the Chinese publisher. It’s a relatively easy thing to have our servers when queried to say everything is unlocked for our players.

It’s been 18 months since they aligned themselves with them to add the code as well as coordinating the localization port.

What is a “Dye Evaluator”?

The people who are arguing they can reinterpret pay to win to mean something besides pay to win remind me of the character in Through the Looking Glass, Humpty Dumpty, as he explains how he can use any word he wants any way he wants.

http://sabian.org/looking_glass6.php
‘I don’t know what you mean by “glory”,’ Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. ‘Of course you don’t — till I tell you. I meant “there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!”’
‘But “glory” doesn’t mean “a nice knock-down argument”,’ Alice objected.
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.’

His argument is nonsensical, however users of words in real life need to stick to commonly accepted meanings so everyone knows what they are discussing and to keep discussions from digressing into arguments about what everyone means.

I think ya’ll are misunderstanding. While ya’ll are trying to convince those like me that p2w only applies if there is a set level of advantage (which ya’ll can’t reference), we are saying there are levels of it.

Many seem to think by me saying that GW2 falls into P2W it must be a massive advantage, which is not the case at all. It is on the low end of the scale. There are advantages to be had via rl cash in GW2 over those who don’t spend rl cash in GW2 even if those are only saving time. Ya’ll can try to argue that saving time is not an advantage, but that will be an extremely hard position to stand on as time is renowned for being one of our most valuable assets.

Essence Snow.3194:

sorudo.9054:

Essence Snow.3194:

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.

I don’t buy into the “only available via cash” requirement. By that logic if it we available by any amount of ig gold (for example), like 1million gold for a statistical advantage, then by that exemption it wouldn’t be P2W even though the ig amount is preposterous.

ok, let me explain on a childish yet simple way:
player 1 doesn’t have money to pay for in-game stuff
player 2 has loads of money to pay for in-game stuff

there is an item in the gem store that gives you the ability to do 100DMG x level, it’s impossible to get this normally in-game.
player 1 can’t buy this item, player 2 buys about 20 of them for each character.
now player 2 has the advantage against player 1, no matter what player 1 tried it’s impossible to win against player 2 because of this item.

that’s the true definition of P2W, you buy something in the store that gives you the advantage over anyone who doesn’t buy that item.

Here’s the kicker…..you simply don’t have any thing backing up that definition, so it’s no more valid then the next. I understand what you think is the definition. It’s not hard to figure out what you mean. I simply don’t believe your definition is any more valid than anyone else’s based on you have nothing to back it up. I’ll repeat…..no reference material, no authority, or legality to cite opens the definition of P2W to debate. And atm ya’’ll have not concreted the validity of your opinions to fact, thus are no more correct in your definition.

Edit: Had to add this note as evidently it’s hard to figure out. I’m not saying that an example where Joe Smoe buys a +200 sword is not p2w when that sword is not available anywhere but via rl cash and is beyond anything else. What I am saying is that is not the only aspect of P2W, the only parameters, that P2W extends beyond what some have decided it may or may not include.

ok, since you simply don’t want to listen, show us an example that is also P2W to you.
i already shown the way it’s literally, now it’s your turn to come with your own prove.

The sheer ability to gain objectives quicker with cash then w/o. Saving time is an advantage since time is a limited resource to us. I’m not saying it is a massive advantage, just that it is one.

Essence Snow.3194:

The sheer ability to gain objectives quicker with cash then w/o. Saving time is an advantage since time is a limited resource to us. I’m not saying it is a massive advantage, just that it is one.

In that case, do you agree that Guild Wars 2 was created and advertised as a Pay to Win game (based on your definition) since gem store items were available from the very beginning that do exactly what you described your understanding of Pay to Win to mean?

To an extent yes. I guess you were never active on GWGuru during GW1 as I extensively debated the topic there prior to GW2 release.

Essence Snow.3194:

I think ya’ll are misunderstanding. While ya’ll are trying to convince those like me that p2w only applies if there is a set level of advantage (which ya’ll can’t reference), we are saying there are levels of it.

I don’t need to convince you of anything. Please feel free to call “P2W” whatever you wish. As long as you understand, deep down, that your definition is flawed and incorrect. Why? Every argument that you make fails the litmus test. Please refer to the following quote:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Here are questions to determine if something is P2W:

1) Does it give you a statistical advantage in game?
2) Does it cost real money?
3) Is it only available to paying players?

If the answer to all three questions is “yes”, then it’s P2W.

Until you can manage to pass that test, your side of the debate fails.

Essence Snow.3194:

To an extent yes. I guess you were never active on GWGuru during GW1 as I extensively debated the topic there prior to GW2 release.

No, back during GW1 I was still stuck using dial up internet, so forums were off limits (as was competitive GW1 game modes… and the survivor title).

So, if you knew/know that GW2 is P2W based on your definition of P2W, where do you draw the line for “so much P2W that I won’t play”?

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

To an extent yes. I guess you were never active on GWGuru during GW1 as I extensively debated the topic there prior to GW2 release.

No, back during GW1 I was still stuck using dial up internet, so forums were off limits (as was competitive GW1 game modes… and the survivor title).

So, if you knew/know that GW2 is P2W based on your definition of P2W, where do you draw the line for “so much P2W that I won’t play”?

By his definition, when you upgraded to a broadband DSL or Cable modem, you just paid extra to win.

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

To an extent yes. I guess you were never active on GWGuru during GW1 as I extensively debated the topic there prior to GW2 release.

No, back during GW1 I was still stuck using dial up internet, so forums were off limits (as was competitive GW1 game modes… and the survivor title).

So, if you knew/know that GW2 is P2W based on your definition of P2W, where do you draw the line for “so much P2W that I won’t play”?

Oh that idk. That is a different question, which I have not contemplated enough to answer.