Liadri alienates a lot of gw2 players

Liadri alienates a lot of gw2 players

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Posted by: Dondarrion.2748

Dondarrion.2748

I feel alienated by the OP’s words. I’m in many of those categories, and I currently try to find a way to defeat Liadri for that elusive mini. Still no luck, but maybe by Tuesday next week I’m a happy man, if not it’ll be forced defeat and another chance next year.

No hard feelings; not leaving over it either, but I’d hate to see Liadri nerfed too. Everything fine as it is.

Lord Sazed / Hasla the Huntress / Seaguard Hala
Seamarshal Belit / Initiate Xun Tsu / Mistwarden Roshone
Seafarer’s Rest | Northerner @ Dragon Season

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Posted by: Shpongle.6025

Shpongle.6025

all the challengers would go crazy if they nerfed it LOL

but people like me, who take it slow and easy, who don’t stress, who wait for content to be nerfed, we would be very pleased if Liadri was made normal

Are you Shpongled?

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Posted by: Account.9832

Account.9832

With norn, charr and asura characters, this feels like a fight against the camera (same as many of the jumping puzzles; it’s as if the people creating the environments and the people coding the camera never bothered to talk to each other – or play the game).

With human and sylvari characters, it feels “merely” as a fight against the random number generator (especially phase 2) and the renderer (which sometimes doesn’t render the red circles at all, and sometimes blurs the entire image unless players turn off post-processing).

Having to walk aaaaaall the way back every single time is the cherry on top of the bad game design cake.

Complexity and skill requirement is great. RNG-based instant death followed by repetitive walking is not.

- Al Zheimer

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Posted by: Account.9832

Account.9832

At first it seem like that insanely impossible clock tower

I think the comparison with the Clock Tower is quite apt.

The Clock Tower was designed to be a solo instance (the puzzle’s designer confirmed this in the forum), and when played as such, it was challenging and fun.

But, for some incomprehensible reason, someone at Arena Net decided to throw (up to) 14 max-size charr and norn on top of you, which made it very hard to see your own character, or anything else, for that matter (it would be trivial to not render the other players, or render them as small halloween spiders), but someone at Arena Net decided that filling your screen with meat and fur made the puzzle better. In reality, it turned it from a fun and challenging jump puzzle into a frustrating mess.

Here (Liadri), we have an encounter that was probably playtested on a different arena (same size, but with a single-layer opaque floor, and without the domed ceiling), and was then transported into the “finished” map, where the geometry causes all sorts of problems with the rendering of the red circles and the game camera. Again, a potentially interesting encounter made frustrating and random by the fact that it wasn’t properly playtested. Simply removing the dome would immediately make it a lot more playable.

Not everyone needs to be able to succeed at everything.

Absolutely. But there’s a difference between skill-based gameplay and biased gambling.

Not everything needs to be fair and balanced.

Good game design does. It’s trivial to make a game challenging by adding a random chance to instantly kill the player, or by making players fight against the camera behaviour instead of the actual AI-controlled enemies.

But that doesn’t test players’ skill, it just tests their patience (or perhaps their level of autism) and their willingness to put up with bad game design. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this fight gives a mini, and I suspect a lot of players wouldn’t bother with it twice if it didn’t (and won’t set foot there again after they get it). When you have to bribe players with a unique item to get them to play through something, that means that part of the game isn’t very well designed.

It’s fine to give some players a reward based on a random number (like a lottery, or a low % chance of loot dropping), but in that case the game needs to be honest about it. The implication here is that the players who don’t get it “aren’t skilled enough”, which might be true in some cases, but ignores the huge role that the RNG plays in this fight (and also on the Strugar fight, but there it’s mitigated by the fact that you don’t die immediately if / when he throws the meat directly at the hound).

Kholer (in AC) is a good example of an encounter which is both challenging and enjoyable. Liadri’s difficulty relies not on players’ ability to read her actions and react to them, but on the randomness of the spawns / AoE location, and the horrible behaviour of GW2’s camera.

- Al Zheimer

(edited by Account.9832)

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Posted by: Calmwinds.4753

Calmwinds.4753

With norn, charr and asura characters, this feels like a fight against the camera (same as many of the jumping puzzles; it’s as if the people creating the environments and the people coding the camera never bothered to talk to each other – or play the game).

With human and sylvari characters, it feels “merely” as a fight against the random number generator (especially phase 2) and the renderer (which sometimes doesn’t render the red circles at all, and sometimes blurs the entire image unless players turn off post-processing).

Having to walk aaaaaall the way back every single time is the cherry on top of the bad game design cake.

Complexity and skill requirement is great. RNG-based instant death followed by repetitive walking is not.

use the infinite watchknight tonic. Problem solved

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Posted by: KStudios.2850

KStudios.2850

The only people Liadri alienates are bad players.

…so I suppose that’s most of the gw2 community.

Learn her skills, watch a youtube video for a Liadri kill someone else did with your class, look on dulfy’s site, copy, win.

I’ve never done Liadri but I’m pretty sure if I just watched a youtube video I could beat her in maybe three tries, tops. Also, stop using bad gear and bad traits.

And yet you’ve not attempted it for yourself?

For the most part, the fight is indeed quite systematic, minus the cosmic orbs which toss in a dash of randomization (and even the orbs as far as I can tell are not completely random. By my estimation there are four to six specific set patterns to where they make their appearances. As far as I can tell however, which of these four to six patterns you end up with at the start of a match is indeed random). Even with the movement disability of my left hand the most common culprit for my demise in a Liadri match is indeed either the orbs or the 2 minute timer. I don’t function well with low tank high dps builds, as I simply cannot make up the difference and evade more to negate damage due to simple poor finger mobility. Saying that the fight by any means isolates “bad players” is a rather moot point. Seeing as the fight only really caters to one play style. Namely the high mobility, high dps method of play. Much like every other fight in the Gauntlet mind you, all of which require varying methods and strategies for completion. Some forcing you into melee or close quarters combat (Deadeye), some requiring extensive utilization of ranged attacks and one’s dodge abilities (Salazon), etc.

I will note and freely admit, that ever since I actually did have a friend assist me with Liadri to get the mini I coveted so and ultimately finished out the majority of the Gauntlet achievement line (not to mention the first year minis, of which she is the last), I’ve have went back and fought her simply to not waste my remaining tickets. I have found her a great deal more enjoyable. Simply because she’s no longer dangling a prize that I can literally never achieve on my own in my face (being a ardent mini collector, this was a horrifying excercise in inadequacy for me, and salt thrown into the wounds thereof). At this point she and the other Gauntlet contestants are simply a challenging and therapeutic test of dexterity on fingers that frankly need the workout to stay as nimble as possible.

I’m quite certain the jotun in the sPvP lobby area hasn’t by any means missed my morning warm-up sessions at all, and if he were programmed so, would likely be greatly relieved for the reprieve. Rofl!

Yumiko Togashii
Commander to [SLVR], Housepet to [GH]

(edited by KStudios.2850)

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Posted by: Aden Celeste.3650

Aden Celeste.3650

The liadri fight is discusting. why?

1- Camera is ALL OVER THE PLACE
2- Death from above, death from her, death from her shadows, death from the pulls those rifts do, the pet for a ranger is constantly dead, and again that awful camera

Has Anet tested this thing? shes just irritating with that camera!

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Posted by: Nick.6972

Nick.6972

I bet all the mediocre bad players are exited for the SAB returning.

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Posted by: Hunny Bunny.3506

Hunny Bunny.3506

Why is there a talk about challenging vs non challenging content here? It’s irrelevant, the Liadri fight isn’t challenging, it’s simply broken.

If you call it challenge to have to deal with broken content, I bet you will find it challenging if I punch a hole in your monitor and you have to pvp using it -fun!

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Posted by: Account.9832

Account.9832

Why is there a talk about challenging vs non challenging content here? It’s irrelevant, the Liadri fight isn’t challenging, it’s simply broken.

It’s challenging in the same way that rolling dice inside a burning ship during a storm (and having to get ten sixes in a row) is challenging.

Also, it relies on people not asking “what the hell am I doing with my life?”.

- Al Zheimer

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

Why is there a talk about challenging vs non challenging content here? It’s irrelevant, the Liadri fight isn’t challenging, it’s simply broken.

It’s challenging in the same way that rolling dice inside a burning ship during a storm (and having to get ten sixes in a row) is challenging.

Also, it relies on people not asking “what the hell am I doing with my life?”.

Got it in 50-60 tries, 30-40 to get the character and build and 20 to actually defeat her with it.
I never had the feeling It was luck at all. Just wll timed dodges, paying attention to where the shadows fall and making a build that dealt with her cripple and improving my movement speed and dodges.

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

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Posted by: kingbread.6174

kingbread.6174

best way, dont attach an achivement to killing her

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Posted by: Zerroth.2401

Zerroth.2401

Why is there a talk about challenging vs non challenging content here? It’s irrelevant, the Liadri fight isn’t challenging, it’s simply broken.

It’s challenging in the same way that rolling dice inside a burning ship during a storm (and having to get ten sixes in a row) is challenging.

Also, it relies on people not asking “what the hell am I doing with my life?”.

Dude this^^ I have also noticed that the necro animation frames it takes to get up take the exact same time as the a full aoe attack ie. 3 secs which makes that a totally unfair attack as due to the camera I didnt even know the rift was there in the first place….

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Posted by: JanNier Kryn Yaren.7968

JanNier Kryn Yaren.7968

My main problme is that the game drags itself here on my pc even with the lowest settings, this isn’t very dificult if you know what to do, it is difficult if you are seeing with a 1 second delay, and the games dragging due to the mobs around and the “shinnies” effects. On my Pc it will be very difficult to do the 8 orbs achivement.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

Got it in 50-60 tries, 30-40 to get the character and build and 20 to actually defeat her with it.
I never had the feeling It was luck at all. Just wll timed dodges, paying attention to where the shadows fall and making a build that dealt with her cripple and improving my movement speed and dodges.

Took me 86 tries from start to finish. Wasn’t until around ticket 70+ that I really had the hang of things and it was down to me not making mistakes.

However, there IS still an element of luck involved with the Cosmic Orbs, since where they spawn is random. If you’re lucky, it’ll spawn right next to you in Phase 2 and you can destroy it easily, but if you’re unlucky it’ll spawn on the other side of the arena and force you to take a risky detour to destroy it before it pulls you at a very inopportune time.

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Posted by: athanor.7410

athanor.7410

I had fun doing those bosses but Liadri is remaining xD
There are few things I don’t like :
- camera problems with the dome
- rift can only be destroyed with AoE and the looks to be random (I think they should be removed)
- it is far from a TP for a solo activity
- it is hollidays and we have less time to do this (and it requires time for the hardest bosses)

What I like :
- I had to tried new builds with my differnent characters
- it should be a permanent activity
- some bosses could be added in new dungeons
- the difficulty

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Posted by: Account.9832

Account.9832

Got it in 50-60 tries […] I never had the feeling It was luck at all.

So now you can do it consistently (meaning more than 50% of the times), can you? How many times have you gone back there, by the way?

Please…

Half the difficulty is dealing with the camera (the same applies to many jumping puzzles, by the way), and if you get unlucky with the location of the spawns two or three times in a row (sometimes even a single one), you’re instantly dead, regardless of how well you play, how fast you react or what your character’s build is.

I got to phase 2 (and almost killed her) on my second attempt at this fight. Which made me wonder what all the fuss was about. And then I died almost instantly on the third attempt when a shade spawned on top of me. And then on the fourth when the camera got stuck in a wall and the whole image got blurred. And then on the fifth when a rift spawned on top of the AoE and pulled me, while my camera was busy showing me a piece of the floor. On the sixth try, an orb spawned on the other end of the arena and pulled me. I got knocked down, and the AoE was cast and killed me before my character even got up (in other words, no chance to react). And so on.

And, after about 10 tries, I decided that if I want to play dice, I’ll just go play dice and save some electricity.

Note that it took me a lot more than 10 tries to be able to solo Kholer (for example), but I could see my progress, and I could see that there was a connection between my skill and how far I got. Here, it’s mostly luck and willingness to go through the dice-rolling dozens of times during your leisure time, when you’re supposed to be having fun (yes, I know, some people find that rolling dice is “fun”, but I never got that).

So congratulations on doing it after “only” 50 or 60 tries (I suspect I’d probably get it too, considering I got so close on my second attempt), but I really have better things to do with my time (both in GW2 and outside it) than bang my head on a randomly-moving wall 60 times in a row until I get lucky so I can convince myself that it was a demonstration of skill.

Remove the outer dome (to at least reduce the camera issues), fix the “obstructed” messages when trying to kill the rifts with ranged attacks, fix the rendering of the red circles on the transparent ground (sometimes they don’t render at all), and maybe this can be an interesting and challenging fight. As it is, it’s a RNG-based fight against the interface, not against Liadri.

- Al Zheimer

(edited by Account.9832)

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Posted by: vhiran xergo.7802

vhiran xergo.7802

It just makes me angry that I have ZERO chance to beat her because I have trouble with colors and the circles to warn me of the insta down aoe are completely invisible. The game’s camera has been very difficult for me from day one. A few jumping puzzles are harder than they need to be because the camera is so bad.

Minis are one of the biggest reasons I play this game and I can’t get this one.

Another thing that really bugs me is how you have to wait several minutes to fight a boss that can insta kill you. Wait 5 minutes. Fight 12 seconds. Die.

This and a few other issues related to the last couple of releases have frustrated me enough that I’m probably going to quit playing entirely. I don’t think community input has any bearing on what happens in their development cycle.

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Posted by: timidobserver.7925

timidobserver.7925

I am all for decreasing the difficulty of this boss. It is basically bias against melee/tank types. There should not be anything that oneshots you 4-5 different ways.

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Posted by: timidobserver.7925

timidobserver.7925

At first it seem like that insanely impossible clock tower

I think the comparison with the Clock Tower is quite apt.

The Clock Tower was designed to be a solo instance (the puzzle’s designer confirmed this in the forum), and when played as such, it was challenging and fun.

But, for some incomprehensible reason, someone at Arena Net decided to throw (up to) 14 max-size charr and norn on top of you, which made it very hard to see your own character, or anything else, for that matter (it would be trivial to not render the other players, or render them as small halloween spiders), but someone at Arena Net decided that filling your screen with meat and fur made the puzzle better. In reality, it turned it from a fun and challenging jump puzzle into a frustrating mess.

Here (Liadri), we have an encounter that was probably playtested on a different arena (same size, but with a single-layer opaque floor, and without the domed ceiling), and was then transported into the “finished” map, where the geometry causes all sorts of problems with the rendering of the red circles and the game camera. Again, a potentially interesting encounter made frustrating and random by the fact that it wasn’t properly playtested. Simply removing the dome would immediately make it a lot more playable.

Not everyone needs to be able to succeed at everything.

Absolutely. But there’s a difference between skill-based gameplay and biased gambling.

Not everything needs to be fair and balanced.

Good game design does. It’s trivial to make a game challenging by adding a random chance to instantly kill the player, or by making players fight against the camera behaviour instead of the actual AI-controlled enemies.

But that doesn’t test players’ skill, it just tests their patience (or perhaps their level of autism) and their willingness to put up with bad game design. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this fight gives a mini, and I suspect a lot of players wouldn’t bother with it twice if it didn’t (and won’t set foot there again after they get it). When you have to bribe players with a unique item to get them to play through something, that means that part of the game isn’t very well designed.

It’s fine to give some players a reward based on a random number (like a lottery, or a low % chance of loot dropping), but in that case the game needs to be honest about it. The implication here is that the players who don’t get it “aren’t skilled enough”, which might be true in some cases, but ignores the huge role that the RNG plays in this fight (and also on the Strugar fight, but there it’s mitigated by the fact that you don’t die immediately if / when he throws the meat directly at the hound).

Kholer (in AC) is a good example of an encounter which is both challenging and enjoyable. Liadri’s difficulty relies not on players’ ability to read her actions and react to them, but on the randomness of the spawns / AoE location, and the horrible behaviour of GW2’s camera.

This guy called it right here. If not for the mini and the achievement I would not have tried it a second time. Basically, Anet is releasing crap content and forcing you to do it in order to get the rewards. Fighting the camera should not be a fundamental element in any fight.

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Posted by: Mireles Lore.5942

Mireles Lore.5942

After completing this boss i got to say the gauntlet was a great idea, but the implementation of one hit mechanics to skills the boss is not even casting was sheer laziness. One hit mechanics is a indicator of laziness and lack of creativity on the devs part. This was a micro skillz boss nothing more that required some luck nothing more, I was very disappointed in this boss, was not fun at all just a source of anxiety and annoyance.

The thing liadri herself was not hard, its the one hit mechanics you added… you can add that to any of the bosses and you would have the same fight as liadri. Very lazy….

And yes in reference to the convo above this is comparable to how poorly tested and thought out as the mad king clock tower… after the event was done the person who designed it said he could not beat it without his dev tools and that it should not have been made to hard, and stated that one will not be this hard again. So by all means use it to support your argument why it should not be nurfed and undermine yourself.

Director – Xunlai Heroic Service Agents [XHSA] | Yak’s Bend
http://xunlaiheroes.wix.com/xhsa

(edited by Mireles Lore.5942)

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Posted by: Account.9832

Account.9832

It just makes me angry that I have ZERO chance to beat her because I have trouble with colors and the circles to warn me of the insta down aoe are completely invisible.

It won’t make you feel any better, but it’s not just you. Quite frequently, on my system, the circles don’t render at all (seems to depend on the height of the camera). The same happens in other fights, by the way (for example, the orbs in the Masticus fight won’t render at all against the dome, so I have to make sure the camera is pointed at the floor, or they’re invisible).

The real achievement here is beating the camera, the RNG, and the game’s rendering engine. Liadri is just an extra.

- Al Zheimer

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Posted by: Celinda.6027

Celinda.6027

Dear arenanet. I have to say that after 80+ tries in order to beat Liadri, with buffs, different char’s etc. and I still didn’t manage to beat her. I lost my will to play gw2. It might be because I’m a bad player that I didn’t manage. But everything I tried failed. I watched videos, read posts, etc. And the sad part is… I only wanted the pet. I don’t really care about the achievements. Sad to say, I won’t be playing too much in the future. Was fun while it lasted. But this is too much of a waste of time when it becomes this difficult.

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Posted by: Have No Faith In Me.1840

Have No Faith In Me.1840

How is this thread still alive?

The entitlement of some people….

Not to mention the outright selfishness of wanting to take the only solid content away from more skilled players. Think about other people not just yourself.

Either you have the skills to pay the bills, or you don’t.

I did Light Up The Darkness, it took me about 120 tries as an estimate. And I loved every single attempt.

Thankfully this thread will be finished in 3 days.

People also bring up the mad king JP.

It shows just how memorable and epic that JP was, because they still talk about it nearly a year later. It was a challenge, but by no means impossible, just like Liadri.

(edited by Have No Faith In Me.1840)

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Posted by: HumaCarrionEater.8254

HumaCarrionEater.8254

the only thing that bothers me is how quickly you can face plant with a single mistake, if only because it doesn’t leave much opportunity to learn the fight organically.

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Posted by: Account.9832

Account.9832

It shows just how memorable and epic that JP was, because they still talk about it nearly a year later. It was a challenge, but by no means impossible, just like Liadri.

You should probably read the posts made by the Clock Tower’s designer at the time. The thing that players complained about (having a ton of other players blocking your view) was not part of the original design. The puzzle was designed and tested as a solo instance (and was great fun when done that way, or with only 2 or 3 players), and people were absolutely right to complain about the last-minute changes. It was meant to be a jumping puzzle, not a game of “try to see through that blob of charr meat”.

Likewise, I bet Liadri was tested on an arena without a dome and without glass effects on the floor, so the camera and rendering issues that a lot of players are having were not actually part of the design, they were last-minute problems that made it into the live game due to poor testing (which seems to be a recurring issue with GW2).

It’s not a matter of being impossible (like I mentioned, I got her down to about 30% HP on my second attempt), it’s a matter of confusing “challenging” with “hard”.

It’s trivial to make a fight “hard” by adding a random chance of instant death, or by having the geometry interfere with the game camera in such a way that you can’t even see the fight properly. And that’s what Liadri is. It’s mainly a fight against the camera and the random number generator (and sometimes the renderer, which fails to render the effects at all, so you have no idea where to move), and only last a fight against the NPC in question.

Remove the dome, make the floor opaque (or change the effects so they render properly), and maybe the result is a “challenging” fight. As it is, it seems to appeal mainly to gamblers (who are willing – and have enough free time – to walk up that ramp 120 times and roll dice 120 times, or however many times it takes to get lucky).

- Al Zheimer

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Posted by: Have No Faith In Me.1840

Have No Faith In Me.1840

It’s trivial to make a fight “hard” by adding a random chance of instant death, or by having the geometry interfere with the game camera in such a way that you can’t even see the fight properly. And that’s what Liadri is. It’s mainly a fight against the camera and the random number generator (and sometimes the renderer, which fails to render the effects at all, so you have no idea where to move), and only last a fight against the NPC in question.

Completely incorrect, but I can see why’d you would not bother to not focus on patterns considering the rest of the game has taught you to AFK faceroll the content.

- Visions spawn in the same locations, every attempt.
- Red circles appear in the same locations, in the same sequence, every attempt.
- Rifts seemingly spawn randomly, but also follow a pattern of opposites.

The only thing “random” is the players actions, if the player is not taking it upon themselves to replicate their movement patterns each run. If the player does a different movement path each run, he/she is just going to confuse themselves. If you replicate your movements, you will pull the same visions into the same white circles at the same time, every run. You can replicate the same run 100x over, just like dead eye farming. There is no RNG.

There is nothing random about Liadri, and 1 hit KO mechanics are completely fine, the game is built around block/evade/dodge roll, it is the core of the game, learn to use the core of the game proficiently.

(edited by Have No Faith In Me.1840)

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Posted by: HumaCarrionEater.8254

HumaCarrionEater.8254

What I don’t understand about the arena design is why it isn’t the same as the place where you fight Scarlet. That’s a perfectly open, viable floor plan that wouldn’t screw you over.

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Posted by: MithranArkanere.8957

MithranArkanere.8957

I’d love to try this fight without looking only at the floor or my character’s back.

I was able to do the Mad King’s clocktower looking at the floor, but there wasn’t random invisible entities coming in my direction and invisible circles of death popping cyclically.

They are invisible because they are out of my field of vision no matter what I do with the camera. Move it up, it sicks to the floor. Move it down, it sticks to my character back.

Even FIRST PERSON would help!

A floor and a ceiling that let me see what happens is all I want to even ATTEMPT this.

SUGGEST-A-TRON says:
PAY—ONCE—UNLOCKS—ARE—ALWAYS—BETTER.
No exceptions!

(edited by MithranArkanere.8957)

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Posted by: KStudios.2850

KStudios.2850

How is this thread still alive?

The entitlement of some people….

The thread title speaks for itself. It began as a complaint thread for those of us like myself, who could not beat Liadri due to inability or disability. Those like myself (disability in my case: refer to former posts), and it’s still a HUGE amount of the player base. I personally, know of at least 4 people who had to resort to paying, bribing, bargaining, etc another player to complete it for them. Most of us had no issue with the difficulty itself, or even the achievement, it was all about the mini.

Keep waving that anti-entitlement flag… Waving an ingame material item in front of someone who can NEVER attain it on their own is wrong. Especially the disabled.

Yumiko Togashii
Commander to [SLVR], Housepet to [GH]

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Posted by: Nanashi.6297

Nanashi.6297

the camera is your worst enemy in this kitten… the fight itself is not so hard. it’s just that kittenign camera that doesn’t show you what you want to see thanks to the dome around you.

What I don’t understand about the arena design is why it isn’t the same as the place where you fight Scarlet. That’s a perfectly open, viable floor plan that wouldn’t screw you over.

^this.
as soon as I have the kittening mini I will never ever enter that dome again. it is just so annoying.

edit: so. 30 tries later I managed to beat her. kittening dome will see me never again unless aernanet changes the camera

(edited by Nanashi.6297)