“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson
Would Teq/Wurm be Better if Instanced?
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No. World events are world events. Dungeons are for instancing.
It really needs to scale in some way though, so that it can be done with fewer or more people as needed. Otherwise it will just end up as legacy content that everyone hears about but noone can remember ever actually doing.
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Not for me. If they were instanced and required a large number of people, I’d probably never do them.
That is to say, the kind of nonsense that usually goes with raiding is the kind of nonsense I could completely do without.
I kill Tequatl a couple of times a week with a bunch of strangers and some guildies. It’s a good time. But there’s no pressure at all.
If you don’t show up, no one calls you at home. If you make a mistake, no one knows. The only thing anyone usually gets called out for is if they die and they aren’t using a waypoint instead of rezzing.
Instance increase the pressure on the casual player base. I’m a decent player…but I’m not the best player in the world. I can run any dungeon in the game relatively easily. I can do high level fractals.
And I can understand why people want to control exactly who they do these events with, but you know…that smaller percentage of the people who would benefit would do so at the expense of the wider gaming population.
So no, I’d not prefer these encounters to be instanced and if they were, I’d likely not do them again.
I think they would be better if they were instanced. I personally think that Teq and Wurm could be Gw2’s way of introducing “raiding” content.
Why not both?
Have easier, pug friendly and less rewarding versions in the open world and harder, more complex and more rewarding versions as instanced guild missions. It would be similar to the difference between LFR and standard raids in WoW, and guild missions and Teq-style bosses are both intended to be ‘raid style content’.
Why not both?
Have easier, pug friendly and less rewarding versions in the open world and harder, more complex and more rewarding versions as instanced guild missions. It would be similar to the difference between LFR and standard raids in WoW, and guild missions and Teq-style bosses are both intended to be ‘raid style content’.
This….not to mention the one thing I simply hate about GW2 and that is not being able to play the game with my friends(Guildy’s) and the Worms and Marionette and Teq all have put half of a party in one overflow and the other in another and no way to join the main group cause the OF is Full. Nothing is more irritating than spending 20 minutes being the only one sent into overflow and clicking on a guild team members portrait over and over to try and join and the team does not want to move to the overflow as there are not enough players there or the possibility of a failure. So in the end you have to listen in TeamSpeak as they all succeed while you are stuck trying it with people you don’t know or maybe never even see again, and guess what the OF does fail.
What would be wrong with 20 or 25 man content? That would feel pretty good I bet. Currently 100man(?) looks rather messy.
Yes, instanced 25/50.. whatever man content that was coordinated would be better.
I do not consider myself a raider but EQ and WoW both did “raid” content much better. GW2’s raid content is extremely strange in that it requires strategy and coordination but forces you into a pug situation with a very large number of players.
Of course my perspective of GW2 content is skewed by the fact that I’m on an under-populated server. Just the same; raid content is raid content and the way GW2 is presenting raid content leaves much to be desired.
It should be instanced. I understand people want world bosses open. However from the other side, I hate being stuck with PuGs. And that is all that we really get when we are doing a world boss, that requires tactics. It would be better if we could control the instances. Just like when Word went out that we Killed Teq, we had even larger ques as everyone tried to crowd our Server to get those kills rather then trying to learn to do it themselves.
I don’t like relying on players I don’t know, when there is a factor of skill involved. Or at the very least knowing what is expected of them.
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Why not have a hard mode like GW1 that’s instanced and one that’s in the open world you can do with your server without hating them. Win/Win. Until then:
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Many people would enjoy it more.
But if you are not in a large guild. You probably dont’ like the idea.
yay this is a great idea. as long as its queueable for pugs. I dont like wasting a server jump to play a dead Teq battle that sent me to a over flow
+1 for instanced bosses
If you want to play with your friends/guildies and avoid the overflow, guest on an underpopulated server. If you are in a really big guild than can actually take on Tequatl and the Wurm, guesting on an underpopulated server would solve all your issues without the need of making it instanced.
If you want to play with your friends/guildies and avoid the overflow, guest on an underpopulated server. If you are in a really big guild than can actually take on Tequatl and the Wurm, guesting on an underpopulated server would solve all your issues without the need of making it instanced.
It’s not a solution, there’s a limited amount of servers too. You have to get in an hour before it starts to somewhat guarantee that you have your people there (probably not all of them because you’re too many) and then play Wait Wars 2 until the boss spawns. I don’t see why connecting these difficult bosses to guild “raids” you can start when you all have time to do it is a negative in anyway, as long as the open world versions are available and doable with a lower number of people (so it’s not completely ignored).
If you want to play with your friends/guildies and avoid the overflow, guest on an underpopulated server. If you are in a really big guild than can actually take on Tequatl and the Wurm, guesting on an underpopulated server would solve all your issues without the need of making it instanced.
It’s not a solution, there’s a limited amount of servers too. You have to get in an hour before it starts to somewhat guarantee that you have your people there (probably not all of them because you’re too many) and then play Wait Wars 2 until the boss spawns. I don’t see why connecting these difficult bosses to guild “raids” you can start when you all have time to do it is a negative in anyway, as long as the open world versions are available and doable with a lower number of people (so it’s not completely ignored).
On underpopulated servers you don’t have to get there 1 hour earlier since there is absolutely nobody there (they guest to higher populated servers) even 10 minutes earlier is enough to get on main and fight the boss, until of course more people understand this and use guesting for their guilds.
Many people would enjoy it more.
But if you are not in a large guild. You probably dont’ like the idea.
I’m not in a large guild, but I’d like if they were instanced. Instanced doesn’t have to mean putting a perfect group together and going in, it could have open lobbies or matchmaking. Instead of having one main server event and several overflow zone events start at the same time, you could have a handful of lobbies that start when they’re full…
The marionette fight seems to kind of work, or at least be close to the border between possible/impossible with random uncoordinated players.
As soon as fights require 80+ well coordinated people and you have to be lucky to get them all into the same server/overflow and randoms might cause failure,…
I acctually don’t get why arenanet still puts them into the open world, makes no sense to me whatsoever.
As it currently stands, in order to take part on your server, you stand there waiting for nearly an hour. This is no fun at all. Especially when you know, that due to the amount of random people around that don’t know what to do the event will fail.
Normal maps don’t give you the tools to organize such an amount of people. So why put it there?
I’d really appreciate to see the ideas implemented with “easy” less rewarding events as open world content and the actual hardcore stuff in instances that allow organisation.
In addition, hardcore content on which you will fail repeatedly before succeeding is horrible if you always got to wait that long before being able to try again. Those fixed start times destroy a lot of the motivation to even try.
(edited by Grax.9204)
+1 for instanced hard boss content. Either that or at least raise server capacity. Imho it is pretty embarassing that they can’t handle more people on one map while other MMOs with much much much much bigger instances can handle about 10 times more people without any lag.
Also the server capacity limitation sucks be cause not everyone is doing the boss.
‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong
‘would of been’ —> wrong
Open World Raid can let players wait a hour or above, Instanced can’t.
I honestly believe that the wurm and tequatl fights would make amazing raid content if balanced around 10-15 players. GW2’s newer dungeons, fights, and mechanics have proven that the dev team can create thought provoking encounters in a zerg, so I know they could make it work if they created raid style instances.
And when I say raid, I don’t mean gear treadmills. I mean fun content that requires an organized 10-15 man group. I really would love to see what ANet could pull off in that kind of environment.
They sure would. They would provide more of the experience large organized groups of players are looking for.
No. World events are world events. Dungeons are for instancing.
It really needs to scale in some way though, so that it can be done with fewer or more people as needed. Otherwise it will just end up as legacy content that everyone hears about but noone can remember ever actually doing.
That is precisely why it should have an instanced version for the guild challenge… and the open world easy mode version for the zerg – with vastly different loot tables.
Simple question, though a complex discussion to be sure: Do you think the new mega-boss encounters would be better if they were instanced? Why or why not? Also, what rulesets would you like to see in place around these types of encounters?
Yes, it would be a blessing. As it stands now, any rando can run up and screw everybody who is actually participating correctly by playing poorly. Not that the Teq encounter was ever hard to begin with, and I probably won’t ever bother with the Wurm solely because of the open world only and overflow issues. It’s just not fun and tedious to carry random people who can’t be bothered to learn the game properly.
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Would Teq/Wurm be Better if Instanced?
Yes.
Would it be better instanced?
I can’t speak for the masses, but for me and mine the answer would be no. Simply put, we’d never get to do it if it we locked into an instance that required 80+ people.
The majority of content (including the large scale world battles), in my opinion, should not be locked behind barriers such as instancing. (Unless that barrier can be passed vie the use of npcs like heroes and hench for those that can’t necessary rally that many actual people – or don’t desire to) It reduces the likeliness that the majority of players will get to enjoy it. Most will look at the requirements, and shake their head in defeat and not bother trying to begin with. With an open world boss, that same person can instead simply ‘sneak in’ and give it a go without drawing too much attention to themself and decide if they want to try it again… maybe see if they can get into an organized group to attempt it. It allows them to get their feet wet, without any massive commitment.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
I prefer it in the open world, I just want a better solution than the current way overflows work.
Hell, even just an easier way than right-click/join to join your party would be great. There just needs to be something that makes it less of a pain in the behind to play with your friends.
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Depends. If the events require too many people (probably more than around 50), it’s probably better off just staying in the main world. Would take too long to fill up likely since the instanced content would be able to start any time. And any time takes the pressure off of doing it now.
If the content is scaled to need at least 20 people, probably better off instanced. A small guild group. 4 full “PUG” groups. A small group of friends. A small group of people who have loosely banded together to do various world content that are neither friends nor in the same guild.
What I’m reading is…… Do you want coordination, an actual skill cap and challenging gameplay to be added to the game?
Y/N?
The obvious answer is yes. The nay-sayers are just saying no for the sake of it… or they have no comprehension of how such a system could be put into the game without ruining the game for ‘them.’ (How it would, I simply cannot even-…)
Zerglings and players thirsting for a challenge can co-exist. Surely.
I’m not sure why people are jumping to the conclusion that the fight becoming playable in an ‘instanced’ version would instantly cause them to cancel the scripted event version. Both can simply co-exist – taking up the same daily reward. If you’re happy standing there spamming one button, do the usual. If you wan’t a challenge – do a heroic mo kittening raid with your guild.
Remember, some of us play games for a challenge – not for ‘loot’.
Blackgate
[MERC] – Oceanic
[MERC] – Oceanic
(edited by Baels.3469)
with vastly different loot tables.
Pls no. Don’t make it a tiered loot treadmill kittenfest like other MMOs, a lot of people came to Guild Wars specifically to get away from that. Fancier skins and minipets and kitten on harder content, sure, but not vertical progression.
No.
#TeamJadeQuarry
Why not have a hard mode like GW1 that’s instanced and one that’s in the open world you can do with your server without hating them. Win/Win. Until then:
lol +3 for the GIF
Having to wait in the main zone for at least an hour (to guarantee you get in) OR sit in an overflow hoping for a queue pop OR spam “join in” endlessly…
Yeah…that sounds like fun gaming to me! /s
Why not both?
Have easier, pug friendly and less rewarding versions in the open world and harder, more complex and more rewarding versions as instanced guild missions. It would be similar to the difference between LFR and standard raids in WoW, and guild missions and Teq-style bosses are both intended to be ‘raid style content’.
I agree. Solo, Party, Open world. All with the same rewards.
Overall; yes, I do feel these encounters would have been better instanced if ANet could have found some way to allow multiple groups inside instead of making them all 5mans.
These encounters are just very poorly tuned and the developers seem completely out of touch with the type of game they’ve made here. As it stands right now these boss encounters are horrendously difficult for the time invested and rewards received. If every player got an ascended item and only the unique skin was a rare drop, perhaps. But for what you get these encounters are too much.
The simple fact that we still have servers that haven’t downed Tequatl should tell ANet that they’ve missed the mark with these bosses. Most players want to see it, they’ll kill the bosses once and will never do it again.
Not for me. If they were instanced and required a large number of people, I’d probably never do them.
That is to say, the kind of nonsense that usually goes with raiding is the kind of nonsense I could completely do without.
I kill Tequatl a couple of times a week with a bunch of strangers and some guildies. It’s a good time. But there’s no pressure at all.
To the above, there is no reason an instanced mega-boss would have to be a “hardcore” raid encounter. It could remain at the exact same difficulty as today, except it would always be properly scaled to a specific number of people, and it would alleviate several of the open world issues that are occurring today with these encounters.
In other words, if it had the same difficulty as today, you could still complete it with a bunch of strangers and some guildies with little pressure. That is more of a factor of how the encounter is tuned, not how it is accessed.
If you don’t show up, no one calls you at home. If you make a mistake, no one knows. The only thing anyone usually gets called out for is if they die and they aren’t using a waypoint instead of rezzing.
Instance increase the pressure on the casual player base. I’m a decent player…but I’m not the best player in the world. I can run any dungeon in the game relatively easily. I can do high level fractals.
Again, the argument above is about how the content difficulty is tuned. If it is tuned to be extremely difficult for the hardcore crowd (of which I am most assuredly not), it will increase pressure on casuals. However, there is no necessity that it be super difficult just because it resides within an instance.
In the second paragraph above, you acknowledge that you can currently clear all of the instanced content in the game. Do your guildies call you when you don’t show for dungeons and fractals? Do current dungeons and fractals increase the pressure on the casual player base?
I think a lot of people assume that instanced means super hard. These two concepts are not necessarily related. In an ideal world, there may even be multiple difficulties to choose from, in order to appease everyone (of course ANet would need to balance that with added development cost).
And I can understand why people want to control exactly who they do these events with, but you know…that smaller percentage of the people who would benefit would do so at the expense of the wider gaming population.
That’s part of it, sure, but instancing also provides other benefits such as the encounters being balanced around a reasonable and consistent number of participants. Also, instancing would allow you to have better coordination among your team (VoIP), if desired. It would also solve the overflow issues and waiting games.
I also disagree that only a small percentage of people would benefit from this. What percentage of people do you think actually clear Tequatl regularly?
Coming from a different perspective, do you think the wider gaming population would benefit if current instanced dungeons were made into fully open world encounters with 2 hour spawn timers?
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson
Yes, instanced 25/50.. whatever man content that was coordinated would be better.
I do not consider myself a raider but EQ and WoW both did “raid” content much better. GW2’s raid content is extremely strange in that it requires strategy and coordination but forces you into a pug situation with a very large number of players.
Of course my perspective of GW2 content is skewed by the fact that I’m on an under-populated server. Just the same; raid content is raid content and the way GW2 is presenting raid content leaves much to be desired.
I think one of the challenges in the open world environment is that you cannot assume everybody will coordinate. Some players will decide to buck the system, while others may just not understand what is going on around them. It seems odd to me that GW2 is pushing for so much coordination in open world fights, when, by definition, you cannot ensure everyone present is willing to work together as a team.
IMO, one of the benefits of executing these types of encounters in an instanced environment is that you can integrate mechanics that requires significant party coordination and safely assume that all of the players in the encounter are on the same page.
Imagine for a minute: A brand new player to GW2 is questing through Lornar’s Pass and stumbles across the marionette event at level 33 in random blues. Would you think that experience is going to be a good one?
Now imagine that same player got ported to a platform with only one other player. That experience is not going to go well at all…
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson
It should be instanced. I understand people want world bosses open. However from the other side, I hate being stuck with PuGs. And that is all that we really get when we are doing a world boss, that requires tactics. It would be better if we could control the instances. Just like when Word went out that we Killed Teq, we had even larger ques as everyone tried to crowd our Server to get those kills rather then trying to learn to do it themselves.
I don’t like relying on players I don’t know, when there is a factor of skill involved. Or at the very least knowing what is expected of them.
I know what you mean about the server crowding. Up until last week, I still had to log into Sparkfly about 40 minutes before Teq spawn during prime time to actually land on my home server. First time I saw my home server’s Lornar’s Pass since Tuesday is right now, because I logged in 90 minutes (1.5 hours!) before the next marionette spawn. Hence, all the time on the forums (sadly, time not actually playing the game).
Instancing would also alleviate guesting issues, since we can run cross-server instances.
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson
Many people would enjoy it more.
But if you are not in a large guild. You probably dont’ like the idea.
I am not in a large guild; I like the idea. Don’t make the mistake of assuming instancing requires added difficulty. Also, LFG tool.
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson
I honestly believe that the wurm and tequatl fights would make amazing raid content if balanced around 10-15 players. GW2’s newer dungeons, fights, and mechanics have proven that the dev team can create thought provoking encounters in a zerg, so I know they could make it work if they created raid style instances.
And when I say raid, I don’t mean gear treadmills. I mean fun content that requires an organized 10-15 man group. I really would love to see what ANet could pull off in that kind of environment.
IMO, marionette @ 25 people (5 people per lane, 1 person per platform) would be an amazing encounter.
The lane groups would require a good amount of coordination between back guard, siege builders, siege users and champ killers. The platforms would emphasize individual skill. There’s so much potential there, but laning in it’s current incarnation is kinda bleh imo.
ETA: In my 25 man scenario above, it would be good if they could add a way for the shields to lower on the platforms phase, allowing DPS characters to help tanky / support characters after finishing their own platform.
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson
Would it be better instanced?
I can’t speak for the masses, but for me and mine the answer would be no. Simply put, we’d never get to do it if it we locked into an instance that required 80+ people.
The majority of content (including the large scale world battles), in my opinion, should not be locked behind barriers such as instancing. (Unless that barrier can be passed vie the use of npcs like heroes and hench for those that can’t necessary rally that many actual people – or don’t desire to) It reduces the likeliness that the majority of players will get to enjoy it. Most will look at the requirements, and shake their head in defeat and not bother trying to begin with. With an open world boss, that same person can instead simply ‘sneak in’ and give it a go without drawing too much attention to themself and decide if they want to try it again… maybe see if they can get into an organized group to attempt it. It allows them to get their feet wet, without any massive commitment.
What if it were tuned around 15, 25 or 50 people instead of 80?
What if there were an easy and hard mode?
What if the LFG tool supported putting together pugs so that it made the content more accessible for casuals?
Would any of the above propositions assuage some of your concerns?
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson
yes. 15 characters
Yes, yes, and YES.
Instances will let guilds play when they want, and will also help casuals, because they can ask for ‘’a spot’’ and get helped by guildies more skilled.
I would like to throw my hat in the ring and say that I wish GW2 would get back to the manifesto. With these fights that require highly organized 80+ teams of people, the “burn phase” feels like, I swing my sword, I swing it again, and again, and again, and… I like that the worms have some cool tactics for getting them into a burn phase, but please stop spiking their hp so high all I do is pray everyone is swinging their weapons fast enough. It would be wonderful if the scaling started at 20 and would move up as more people came. Please Arena Net, I love the dynamic system of scaling, don’t go away from it!
im not sure about that, the only problem is that people use overflow to do them, and instances will solve the problem of getting DC and then not being able to get back in again
Mesmers Shall Rule Tyria!
I’ve said this is another thread, and I’m against the implementation of big multiplayer instances. The more of these there are, the less people are in the world. That’s why I don’t believe open world versions could coexist with instanced versions.
Only X number of people play. Only X number of people will show up for these big events. If you make it instanced and balanced for smaller numbers, particularly with equal rewards, a good percentage of those in the open world would do that instead.
This affects my game, because I don’t want to hide away in an instance. I want to be able to do these events in the open world.
I don’t want to try to coordinate 20 people from my guild to get together at the same time to do this. I don’t want to leave player 21 and 22 out, because we don’t have slots for them.
Instances in other games are fraught with problems that I tried to get away from in the first place. It’s why I’m here.
I’d rather Anet worked on a better system for open world raids than they instance stuff that I feel would be better in open world.
im not sure about that, the only problem is that people use overflow to do them, and instances will solve the problem of getting DC and then not being able to get back in again
People use overflow in order to get an exclusive instance for the people that they want to play with with minimal interference from people going afk near the event who increase scaling without contributing; and other undesirables…
It’s kind of telling that the groups that have any reasonable chance to complete these events are circumventing the system in order to create and “instance-like” environment, is it not?
People use overflow in order to get an exclusive instance for the people that they want to play with with minimal interference from people going afk near the event who increase scaling without contributing; and other undesirables…
It’s kind of telling that the groups that have any reasonable chance to complete these events are circumventing the system in order to create and “instance-like” environment, is it not?
This. I’m not sure how people don’t get that this stuff already is instanced. Except it’s really clunky and poorly designed, allowing players little to no choice of which instance they join. Also, if you don’t want to be in a raiding guild, pug raids, anyone? C’mon, MMOs have been around for a while, all your complaints have been ironed out by now, the problem is in Anet that desperately want to be a unique snowflake instead of relying on tried and proven solutions.
Count me in the no to instanced group. The less loading screens I have to get through to get to the boss the better. Also, I like the size and relative anonymity of zergs. If overflows were refined or certain changes were made to help that’d be best. I’d rather most stuff happen out in the game world than in its own little bubble. So…no to instanced, no to clunky overflows.
Guild: Northern Wolf Clan [WOLF]
I’d prefer no instance either, but when people at these events start asking for (new) players on the map doing other events/map completion and playing the game as well to leave to an overflow, something needs to be changed.
Yes. I usually don’t like WoW ideas, but a guy in our guild says that fights like this are instanced there, 50 people or so. There are too many variables that don’t make this fun at all. ONE troll could keep attacking at 1% on worm body and fail it for the lolz. People can afk and ruin it. People can be upleveled. People can have broken armor. People can have no ascended gear, let alone even exotic gear. All this is OUT of the player’s control. This is basic psychology, it puts us into unwinnable situations (which actually lead to fight or flight, which is why people go nuts in TS on each other but that is a whole other topic in of itself). It takes the joy out of the game. Worm is just an absolutely stupid fight that you have to have 150+ people, do it all right, THEN you get a two minute timer. Idiotic. Marionette is possibly greatest fight in any game I played…with the sole exception that you CANNOT pick the parties that go on the pads, so once again ONE person, ONE troll or ONE party of five can fail the whole thing. This is so close to perfection, I don’t know why Anet who was brilliant in GW has included a fault in almost every major fight in this game. New staff or something, but in short they need to pull their heads out of their behinds. And make no mistake, this is NOT elite content. As I pointed out, a person could be afk for most of fight, take a few swings and get credit right at end. So what is the point? What is the point of a 150 person “raid” that is so dependent on teamwork and timing, yet some could barely contribute and still get full credit? Makes zero sense. Bring back 8 party dungeons/instances, 12 party dungeons/instances, and as my guildy said, 25 or even 50 party instances. And if you anet folks just HAVE to have a full map of players for your egos, make it so we can AS A GUILD get a completely clean map where WE can invite the 150 players WE WANT. Trying not to rage, but right on the edge of raging here.
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