Guild Wars 2

Illysharia.7286:

It’s ok if you don’t understand what the other players are trying to communicate here. Really, it is. You are not the target audience. The main point of this thread (and the two others) is to have the designers from ANET, who are making this content, hear the voices of their customers that object to being funneled into one playstyle to see Story completion.

I made a post regarding the Living Story and Personal Story here that you may find worthwhile to read.

lol. Do you feel better when you pretend people only disagree with you because they’re not in on your secret knowledge or something? It’s not that I don’t understand the complaint, more that I think the complaint is being laughably over-dramatised by people who got the majority of the content how they wanted it, then reached a stage where it ventured into another type of gameplay for a brief moment – about 40 minutes, in this case – and suddenly had an epiphany: that actually, in spite of how it seemed before it affected them, you can’t complete whatever aspect of the game you like by mere coincidence.

Only… almost all of it. That is, if the part you like happens to be solo instances and strictly non-committed cooperation. Should you exclusively favour the playstyle WvW, PvP, or dungeons offer, naturally you just have to deal with it and do something else for… let me check your notes here… ‘Weeks, and sometimes months, of working away at these Stories’. Yikes! I guess it’s lucky ‘If you don’t want to, or dislike, one aspect of the game you don’t even have to go near it’. …unless you want to go through the majority of any story at all, of course.

Please, do explain more about your plight…

Incidentally:

Illysharia.7286:

Look at the Daily and Monthly achievements. After sufficient feedback, the Devs changed them so they weren’t so rigid in what you had to do to complete them. Now you get to choose 5 out of a list of tasks and you don’t have to do any you don’t like. It was an immensely fair change that acknowledged there is a wide spectrum of their playerbase who all don’t do the same things.

This is great… for daily and monthly achievements. I can’t help but wonder though… would you rather occasionally have to do something you normally wouldn’t in order to complete a story, or get painfully slow to release (or maybe worse: rushed) stories because they were busy filling in ‘options’ for it to be completed in any type of gameplay? Somebody out there does have to make these things, you know. I have a feeling tracking your stats for a monthly or daily is less intensive by comparison.

Vulpis.8063:

Xalugami.2096:

Seriously though, at level 20 or 25 you get in-game mail telling you “oh hey dude, you need to start doing 5-man content because its part of the storyline”, so seeing the last quest take place in Arah is not even remotely surprising; unless you don’t care about the story enough to read the texts, in which case why worry about the story?

Huh—the one’s I got were basically ‘Those losers from Destiny’s Edge are begging for you and 4 other people to go help them in their own splinter story, if you feel like taking the time out of your own story to go help them. No ‘need’ involved in it whatsoever.

The ‘need’ he is referring to as in, you need to do it to get the story. The story dungeons are part of the story in the world and personal story. Destiny’s Edge is made up of your races mentors in the beginning, so right away they are part of your story. You run into all 5 of them in Lions Arch and again in the dream of Orr. They are also in the Arah Story mode dungeon, naturally. They are very much a part of the story, so if you want to have the full story, you need to do them.

I do not want to spoil anything, for people who have not completed the story, so I won’t say more from there regarding destiny’s edge’s part in the story.

Xalugami.2096:

ANet already stated that the challenging/ending PvE focus would be through the dungeons and not the open world, as to give groups something to work on doing. So making them solo-able would pretty much strike that idea down (granted they already changed a bunch of their concepts since launch).
People who only play one way can’t have access to everything. Such as if a player doesn’t want to PvP, they shouldn’t have all the PvP skins unlocked. If a player doesn’t want to group up, they shouldn’t (though still can for the few rare ones) be able to do the group-based content. There’s still the entire rest of the game out there to enjoy.

Hmm. I’m not sure whether this is more an apples-and-oranges argument, or a strawman here.
You’re quite right, someone who doesn’t PvP shouldn’t automatically get all the PvP stuff. Conversely, PvP is properly encapsulated, where PvP isn’t required to do PvE content, nor is PvE required to do PvP content. Similarly, if you take the Destiny’s Edge side story by itself, it’s almost properly encapsulated—the only PvE required is in general to level up to cause the next section to be unlocked—and that would be more of a complaint about the need to level-grind to unlock it. :-)
But with the Personal Story…it’s a case of throwing liver-wrapped asparagus in the peanut-butter at the very last moment. (I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to which applies to which content—keeping in mind there are the sorts like the pure PvPers who can’t stand either one. ;-) )

Living story…the fundamental problem is that they’re only providing content for one style at a time, and requiring you do every type to finish the event as a whole. If they’re going to be lazy and keep doing it this way every time, then at least let us know from the very start so we can go ahead and completely ignore it (what’s the point of doing any of it if you’re only going to get 4/5ths completion and no reward at all, after all?) Alternatively, they could stop being lazy and provide content of all types at each stage of the story. In other words instead of 1 collection task, 1 open world event task, 1 instance, 1 dungeon over the course of the multimonth event, they have in the first month a collection task, an open-world event task, an instance, and a dungeon. And then the next month, they have another collection task, another open-world event task, another instance, and another dungeon. Wash, rince repeat, with the final reward only requiring you to complete one of the tasks for each stage, though possibly with additional rewards for completing more than that.
That way, noone is left out, nor is anyone stuck with no option at all but to do something they loathe, no matter what that might be. (I’ve probably missed style types that need to be included, but you get the idea). Is this a lot of work? Quite probably. But frankly, if Anet can’t be bothered to put this much work into their events, they shouldn’t be running them at all, and working on permanant and/or expansion content instead.

Vulpis.8063:

Huh—the one’s I got were basically ‘Those losers from Destiny’s Edge are begging for you and 4 other people to go help them in their own splinter story, if you feel like taking the time out of your own story to go help them. No ‘need’ involved in it whatsoever.

I know The Herald sends a message before the Ascalonian Catacombs intro about the inclusion of dungeons to your story, although I can’t find any direct text (I have my character slots full so I can’t speed to 20 to check) of the message. So due to my lack of resources I’ll drop this point since I lack the facts. If anyone per chance has this message from The Herald, it would be nice to clear up what it says.

Vulpis.8063:

Once again, repeat after me:
There are more ways to have multiplayer interaction in this game other than 5-man teams.
I mean, really—we keep hearing this over and over again—are you that blind to all the other content that can be either soloed or grouped, as well as the ones that are designed for multiple players participating without needing for make a formal group?

There are definitely ways to do that, you’re right. You can feel free to do those quests without even needing a party.
However, a lot of players still enjoy testing their mettle in group-only challenging situations where it’s just the 5 of them (or less) and a couple terrible NPCs that die in a few seconds only to add to Daily Healer. Unlike the Dynamic Event system, there is no possible chance for a hero to walk by and help out for a bit. It’s just 5 people; we either do good and win, or do bad and not-win (shame GW2 has a lack of definitive failure, but I don’t mind that too much). Group-only content is still a thing, whether you enjoy it or not. Nobody can enjoy everything (and before somebody says they enjoy everything, there’s probably something un-GW2 related they dislike).

Vulpis.8063:

Reading comprehension please—the bait-and-switch doesn’t refer to there being dungeons in a MMO, it’s the problem that a dungeon is suddenly tacked on to the end of what up until then has been entirely soloable, and even the very name of the content indicates that it should be soloable from beginning to end. The Living story, you could barely justify by it not being a ‘story’ as such, but a ‘Some from column A, some from column B’ (amusingly the ‘collection of pies’ analogy fits better here—there actually is no big pie here, just a collection of small ones—with the problem that the event requires you to choke down the flavor that makes you vomit in order to complete it—whatever that flavor may be). The ‘Personal’ story has no such excuse, whatsoever.

I still believe The Herald alerts the player of this early on, but I won’t use that as a point since I don’t have the exact text on hand.

That being said, you had the whole Story to solo, and now that you’ve reached the end, it’s time to give players the final push they need to try out ANet’s target end-game PvE setting: a dungeon.
Don’t think of your final quest as “Locked quest unless I party up” because (as true as that is) it’s the wrong impression ANet was trying to push.
Your final story quest isn’t just a dungeon it’s being trusted to seek down the last reinforcements the Pact needs to finally assault the threat of the Elder Dragon Zhaitan. This is something you physically can’t do alone, so you must beseech the world of Tyria to find the final few heroes the Pact requires to secure a rather unthinkable victory.

Doing so both gives the player a unique objective (seriously, no other story quest asks you to find real, quality aid, so it’s a brand new mission objective for once) as well as introduces them into the end-game content ANet has created. Not to mention if this was a Dynamic Event, it would be so broken and unplayable I’m sure everyone would complain about it.

Sometimes the world needs a hero. Sometimes the hero is the one to rally powerful forces if the world is in great peril.

Jemmi.6058:

Vulpis.8063:

Xalugami.2096:

Seriously though, at level 20 or 25 you get in-game mail telling you “oh hey dude, you need to start doing 5-man content because its part of the storyline”, so seeing the last quest take place in Arah is not even remotely surprising; unless you don’t care about the story enough to read the texts, in which case why worry about the story?

Huh—the one’s I got were basically ‘Those losers from Destiny’s Edge are begging for you and 4 other people to go help them in their own splinter story, if you feel like taking the time out of your own story to go help them. No ‘need’ involved in it whatsoever.

The ‘need’ he is referring to as in, you need to do it to get the story. The story dungeons are part of the story in the world and personal story. Destiny’s Edge is made up of your races mentors in the beginning, so right away they are part of your story. You run into all 5 of them in Lions Arch and again in the dream of Orr. They are also in the Arah Story mode dungeon, naturally. They are very much a part of the story, so if you want to have the full story, you need to do them.

I do not want to spoil anything, for people who have not completed the story, so I won’t say more from there regarding destiny’s edge’s part in the story.

Huh again. From what I’ve seen, you meet them (or more or less try to) in LA, they have snit-fits and leave, and you spend nearly the entirety of the personal story gathering the allies and gear to save the world without them (only apparently, for them to pull an 11th hour A-Team Entrance.) They’re a splinter story, the Silmarillion to the personal story’s LOTR—yeah, it fills in extra info, but it’s not needed.

Let me, for the record, state:

I am NOT against ‘group content’. Neither am I against 5 man dungeons.

I am against content which forces you to form an organized party when, and only when, it is presented as the conclusion to an (until now) entirely soloable (or unpartied dynamic group event) chain of ‘personal storyline’/‘living storyline’ content.

Guild Wars 2 offered a constantly changing ‘personal story’, updated frequently. It offered the ability to complete group content without the need to form a party.

Tell me, what is ‘personal’ about doing a long chain of solo content only to see the ‘wrap-up’ of the party leader’s story, and not your own, in a 5 man dungeon with 4 other strangers?

I’m not saying to remove 5 man content. If anything, add more and make it a completely separate story from the solo content; much like the ’Destiny’s Edge’ storyline. But please, don’t tack it onto the end of my soloable personal or living story content.

Vulpis.8063:

Flat out honestly here? I think you have the situation backwards. Yes, we’re owed story completion, because that was what we’ve paid Arenanet to provide for us.

How exactly did you arrive at that conclusion? You paid for a game; you received a game. Buggy though it often is, as far as I’m aware it can be completed if it’s played as it was designed to be, and often even when it’s (seemingly) not.

It’s one thing to say there were parts of a game you didn’t like, would have preferred to be different, et cetera, – and really, when isn’t this the case? – but now you think that because the game’s campaign requires you to do a certain thing you’d rather not, you’ve been deprived of something you were owed? Like… really?

Vulpis.8063:

And it’s not people not wanting to do things the way they’re designed to be done, it’s purposely designing it so that the only way to finish it is completely counter to the entire rest of the story. I’m sure Arah is a fine end to the Destiny’s Edge story told in dungeons from beginning to end—but for a Personal story, which in it’s very name says it’s something for the individual, it’s a horrible and nonsensical way to end it.

Except it’s not ‘counter’ to it. There are remarkably few differences between a solo instance and a group instance (i.e. dungeon), you’re just treating it as being totally contrary because you happen to take exception to one of those differences. For the most part it’s just a bigger, tougher version of the same thing.

Vulpis.8063:

And what is with this ‘easy mode’ and ‘trivially completed’ manure? Absolutely no one is wanting that—just something that’s a difficult but reasonably completable challenge, without being dragged into the very content they’ve been doing this story to get away from?

Hrm… can you be owed completion, in the manner and difficulty of your choosing, but not allow for it to be completed trivially? I mean that’s not really consistent, is it? Or would you stop caring so long as they added an option easy enough for you, personally, to complete?

Vulpis.8063:

Huh again. From what I’ve seen, you meet them (or more or less try to) in LA, they have snit-fits and leave, and you spend nearly the entirety of the personal story gathering the allies and gear to save the world without them (only apparently, for them to pull an 11th hour A-Team Entrance.) They’re a splinter story, the Silmarillion to the personal story’s LOTR—yeah, it fills in extra info, but it’s not needed.

I am guessing you still have not completed Arah Story or any of the Dungeons in Story Mode? If so, I can understand how you wouldn’t know that they are needed for the story as a whole. Each of the characters of Destiny’s Edge is in a handful of story missions (depending on race) + all 5 in the two I mentioned. Plus you receive mails from your Herald about the story mode dungeons before and after you complete them. There is a lot of story you are missing out on that ultimately is very important on your final mission.

Do you read Game of Thrones? If so maybe this may help you. Imagine you hate the Lannisters, so you skip every single chapter on Cersei/Jamei/Tyrion. You are going to miss out on a lot of very important story, all because you hate the Lannisters. That is essentially what you are doing by skipping the story mode dungeons. You’re missing a crucial part of the story. It’s your choice to do it.

Elbegast.6970:

Guild Wars 2 offered a constantly changing ‘personal story’, updated frequently. It offered the ability to complete group content without the need to form a party.

Tell me, what is ‘personal’ about doing a long chain of solo content only to see the ‘wrap-up’ of the party leader’s story, and not your own, in a 5 man dungeon with 4 other strangers?

I’m not saying to remove 5 man content. If anything, add more and make it a completely separate story from the solo content; much like the ’Destiny’s Edge’ storyline. But please, don’t tack it onto the end of my soloable personal or living story content.

It’s just like I said above, but will paste here for easy reference:

Xalugami.2096:

Don’t think of your final quest as “Locked quest unless I party up” because (as true as that is) it’s the wrong impression ANet was trying to push.
Your final story quest isn’t just a dungeon it’s being trusted to seek down the last reinforcements the Pact needs to finally assault the threat of the Elder Dragon Zhaitan. This is something you physically can’t do alone, so you must beseech the world of Tyria to find the final few heroes the Pact requires to secure a rather unthinkable victory.

Doing so both gives the player a unique objective (seriously, no other story quest asks you to find real, quality aid, so it’s a brand new mission objective for once) as well as introduces them into the end-game content ANet has created. Not to mention if this was a Dynamic Event, it would be so broken and unplayable I’m sure everyone would complain about it.

Sometimes the world needs a hero. Sometimes the hero is the one to rally powerful forces if the world is in great peril.

And sometimes, the hero has to overcome themselves to achieve that goal.

Keep in mind this was a design decision to get players into dungeons. Maybe they’ll like them, maybe they won’t (and with the last boss battle, I’d assume they’ll never touch a dungeon again… great contradiction ANet). You’ll never know until you try, and what better a way to make it the finale of the game. That means more people will feel the need to try.
Brought up again in Flame & Frost, but with the best dungeon ever made (unless you count SAB). I’m sure loads more people are awaiting dungeons in the future after playing that masterpiece [compared to the jokes we have now].

Xalugami.2096:

I know The Herald sends a message before the Ascalonian Catacombs intro about the inclusion of dungeons to your story, although I can’t find any direct text (I have my character slots full so I can’t speed to 20 to check) of the message. So due to my lack of resources I’ll drop this point since I lack the facts. If anyone per chance has this message from The Herald, it would be nice to clear up what it says.

After consulting with the alt-fleet I did manage to find one where I hadn’t been cleaning the inbox, which contained this. AFAIK it’s the earliest thing they send you.

Bonus content from the screencap folder (apparently you can’t copy/paste in-game mail): Is it slanty in here or is it just me?

I enjoy doing dungeons but that doesn’t mean I like seeing the beginning of a storyline be completely soloable and then forced grouping be required to see the end of the storyline. I didn’t like it in our Personal Story and I didn’t like it in Flame and Frost.

If the Southsun story is going to end with grouped content then ALL of the storyline should be grouped content. If the Southsun story is going to start with soloable content, then the end should be solo-able as well. No bait and switch to get people into the story with one method of gameplay then change it at the end.

Given the option of making it available through forced grouped content or solo-able content I would vote for solo-able. And before that ridiculous argument of ’It’s an MMO’ get repeated, we’ve seen plenty of solo content in GW2 and virtually all modern MMOs. Dynamic events can be done without forced grouping. WvW can be done without forced grouping. Our Personal Story can be done without forced grouping.

GW2’s story should be experienced by every person who plays the game IMO. That includes player who don’t like dungeons or who can’t do them for scheduling or whatever reason.

The game’s story should be shared by the entire community, not just experienced by people who run dungeons. Dungeons have plenty of rewards on their own. (Note that I am NOT saying remove challenging content either, what I am suggesting only applies to the storylines not the gear progression/rewards)

I say let GW2’s story be the reward for the whole community for playing the game regardless of their playstyle, don’t make dungeons the only way to see it.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

…Dynamic events can be done without forced grouping. WvW can be done without forced grouping. Our Personal Story can be done without forced grouping.

Hypothetically speaking… suppose you had alternate-reality MF, with the sole difference being that to get in people walk up to the door, enter a queue, and are teleported into the instance 5 at a time.

Forced grouping, or ‘event’?

LameFox.6349:

Xalugami.2096:

I know The Herald sends a message before the Ascalonian Catacombs intro about the inclusion of dungeons to your story, although I can’t find any direct text (I have my character slots full so I can’t speed to 20 to check) of the message. So due to my lack of resources I’ll drop this point since I lack the facts. If anyone per chance has this message from The Herald, it would be nice to clear up what it says.

After consulting with the alt-fleet I did manage to find one where I hadn’t been cleaning the inbox, which contained this. AFAIK it’s the earliest thing they send you.

Bonus content from the screencap folder (apparently you can’t copy/paste in-game mail): Is it slanty in here or is it just me?

Ah ha, that seems about right. Thank you for taking the time for screen-capping that.

So I was incorrect in my memory of him/her saying you will be needed with Destiny’s Edge in the future. My apologies for bringing that up with false claims, however I feel that the Destiny’s Edge storyline was being so hard-pressed throughout your journey that one could argue it’s still a vital role in your Personal Story and bound to join the two at some point. I suppose you can think of it as the side-quests needed to get the “true ending”.

Most of your Personal Story is solo’ing, Most of the Destiny’s Edge story is dungeoneering. So (If you’ve followed [DE] in the Dungeons you knew their plan for Arah) gathering up a team of your own to combine with Destiny’s Edge and the Pact for the big dungeon “hurrah!” still shouldn’t be too big of a surprise, really.

If we’re bouncing around facts here, it never says Personal Story is pure solo content either, but it is easy to get into assumptions if nothing forces you to break the mold (something I feel Ascalonian Catacombs should have done to begin with, rather than “Surprise! Arah!”).

LOL, the idea that Story Mode dungeons aren’t necessary to get the entire story can only be from someone who hasn’t given them a chance. The world of this game isn’t contained in your own little bubble, and it was never intended to be. Dungeons are NOT separate from Personal Story. Just because it’s labeled “Personal” doesn’t mean it’s solitary. I’m guessing the entitlement to have access to what you want comes from paying for the game, but if you pay for the game and choose to skip out on content, that’s not Anet’s fault. For people who have yet to complete their Personal Story, and have neglected to do the Story Mode dungeons, don’t even bother finishing. You won’t have the necessary plot resources in order to fully understand it anyway.

If playing with strangers is a problem, make friends. Join a guild. These parts of the game are some of the most fun if you have a coordinated group. I’m not telling you how to play, I’m offering a suggestion to get more enjoyment out of this game as the developers have clearly intended. Grouping is a requirement to play many aspects of this game. This is a social game.

If you refuse, your inability to do so doesn’t fall on the responsibility of Anet. They will keep making the game as they intend it, and you will continue to “play how you want”, but don’t expect that those two will match up.

Vulpis.8063:

…requiring you do every type to finish the event as a whole. If they’re going to be lazy…

How is expecting you do participate in multiple types of content in order to earn rewards lazy? It sounds more like a lazy player not willing to put forth the effort to complete it because it’s not catered to them. It’s NOT a bait and switch. It’s a reasonable expectation. They’ve given you all of the tools you need to be successful, if you don’t use them it’s your prerogative.

LameFox.6349:

Hypothetically speaking… suppose you had alternate-reality MF, with the sole difference being that to get in people walk up to the door, enter a queue, and are teleported into the instance 5 at a time.

Forced grouping, or ‘event’?

And in this hypothetical case what happens if you don’t have exact multiples of 5 players trying to get in at a time? Or you only have 3 players? Are those players left outside the door wasting their time and needing to spam LFG to start the content? Are you forcing them to find other players to start the content?

Unless you can run this ‘MF’ with less than 5 people, or 7 people or any other number besides 5, you are talking about forced grouping. It requires a set number of people. You need to schedule with your friends when you’re going to play and you need to make certain you only have the right number of friends along every time. And if one of those friends has to leave halfway through because the cat just got caught in the dryer, you can’t go on with the content and everyone has just wasted their time.

None of the other systems I’ve mentioned (DEs, WvW, PS) have those limitations and it is brilliant of ArenaNet to have expanded on way to let people play together without requiring them to make fixed groups.

Unfortunately, that innovative thinking has been abandoned when it comes to their storylines for some unfathomable reason.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

If one of those people has to leave the group because the cat just got caught in the dryer, you can’t go on with the content.

I don’t mean to hop between you two discussing, but this made me chuckle.
Not in a “hah poor cat” kind of way, but a “glad to know people can still maintain humor” kind of way.

Poor kitty though. Get out of the dryer, you’re not a wet clothing article!

Now in both ways.

Xalugami.2096:

I know The Herald sends a message before the Ascalonian Catacombs intro about the inclusion of dungeons to your story, although I can’t find any direct text (I have my character slots full so I can’t speed to 20 to check) of the message. So due to my lack of resources I’ll drop this point since I lack the facts. If anyone per chance has this message from The Herald, it would be nice to clear up what it says.

In all fairness, it’s matter of viewpoint and interpretation of tone. What it really says basically boils down to ‘Hey, we unlocked a dungeon for you.’, with no indication of it being mandatory.

Xalugami.2096:

There are definitely ways to do that, you’re right. You can feel free to do those quests without even needing a party.
However, a lot of players still enjoy testing their mettle in group-only challenging situations where it’s just the 5 of them (or less) and a couple terrible NPCs that die in a few seconds only to add to Daily Healer. Unlike the Dynamic Event system, there is no possible chance for a hero to walk by and help out for a bit. It’s just 5 people; we either do good and win, or do bad and not-win (shame GW2 has a lack of definitive failure, but I don’t mind that too much). Group-only content is still a thing, whether you enjoy it or not. Nobody can enjoy everything (and before somebody says they enjoy everything, there’s probably something un-GW2 related they dislike).

And here we have the crux of the argument. Yep, groups do enjoy doing group-required content. That’s their option, and more power to them same as for other play styles like PvP. And yes, group-only content is a thing, which again is fine as long as it’s properly encapsulated, providing the option to avoid it.
The problem is that in order to complete the personal story, this group-only content is not an option, it’s mandatory, tacked onto content where otherwise there has been absolutely no group-only mandatory content to proceed. It takes the last page out of an English-language story and printed it in a mix of Sanskrit and Klingon (choose your own completely incompatible pairing of languages as needed).

(Gah, have to split this up again due to the forum software complaining about the message length. Anet, could you please add a character-count feature to your forum software, please?? )

(part 2)

I still believe The Herald alerts the player of this early on, but I won’t use that as a point since I don’t have the exact text on hand.

That being said, you had the whole Story to solo, and now that you’ve reached the end, it’s time to give players the final push they need to try out ANet’s target end-game PvE setting: a dungeon.
Don’t think of your final quest as “Locked quest unless I party up” because (as true as that is) it’s the wrong impression ANet was trying to push.
Your final story quest isn’t just a dungeon it’s being trusted to seek down the last reinforcements the Pact needs to finally assault the threat of the Elder Dragon Zhaitan. This is something you physically can’t do alone, so you must beseech the world of Tyria to find the final few heroes the Pact requires to secure a rather unthinkable victory.

Heh. From what I recall, the Herald never says anything about dungeons being necessary to do—it just tells you that there is one that you’ve been given access to, and how it connects to the Destiny’s Edge story.

And yes, I had the entire Personal story to do solo, as it focuses around my efforts, my deeds, my accomplishments, and my heroism…because it’s my story. It’s not the story of these 4 other people I suddenly have to drag along with me just to finish the job. And ‘Target endgame content’ being the dungeons?? that’s so outdated an idea that it’s not funny, not to mention it doesn’t even match the content provided in the world. It would have made far more sense to epilogue with something along the lines of ’You’ve killed the big bad, but there’s still lots of clean-up to do, and lots of people to help’. GW2’s dungeons aren’t ‘end-game’ at all.

Locking out the end of the story unless I party up may not be the message Anet intended to push, but it is the one that they have pushed in practice.

As for your intepretation of the last mission—that’d fly if it had been grouped content all along, but not so much for one presented all along as personal—in fact, doing it that way rather demolishes what sense of accomplishment is there. I am the final hero Tyria needs to defeat the Elder Dragon. I have gathered the allied needed to do the job—the Pact. But instead, I end up having the scene stolen by a 5-team that’s spent their story trying to get the band back together, and get stuck with 4 others who equally think this should have been their shining hour as I think it should have been mine? Weeeeak, and would be classified as a wallbanger had it been put in print rather than a game. There are far better ways to try to lure players to a different play style (ignoring for the moment that at this point it’s rather far too late to be doing so—if they haven’t had any desire to do the previously offered dungeons, why in blazes would they want to do one now??) than to force-feed it like this.

Xalugami.2096:

I don’t mean to hop between you two discussing, but this made me chuckle.Not in a “hah poor cat” kind of way, but a “glad to know people can still maintain humor” kind of way.
.

Glad to see that got a laugh And I’m even more glad to see the post is actually being read

I try to throw in some humor when I can. It helps to keep things in perspective that this is a all about a game and fun should be the main goal.

Vulpis.8063:

The problem is that in order to complete the personal story, this group-only content is not an option, it’s mandatory, tacked onto content where otherwise there has been absolutely no group-only mandatory content to proceed.

My point as well. If the entire Personal Story had required grouped content through the missions, I would have been fine with the finale also being grouped content. But to make 99% of it soloable, then make conclusion only available through grouped content is inconsistent and extremely annoying. I’ve seen others call it a bait and switch and I’ve taken up that description as well because the more I think about it, the more accurate I’m afraid I find it to be.

I think the idea is that you didn’t do it alone. You had help the whole time. So it’s more of a selfish thing, then?

Vulpis.8063:

In all fairness, it’s matter of viewpoint and interpretation of tone. What it really says basically boils down to ‘Hey, we unlocked a dungeon for you.’, with no indication of it being mandatory.

The dungeons are portrayed as mandatory as the personal story. That is, neither are mandatory. They are only needed if you want the story. Your first clue that Destiny’s Edge are part of the story is when you see them bicker in Lions Arch and then shortly after receive mail saying that Eir has run off to Ascalonian Catacombs (which she hinted at in the personal story instance).

TBH, I am surprised as a story lover that you were not hooked at the mystery around why she ran to AC. In the personal story instance, she said

Eir Stegalkin: It’s sad to see Logan and Rytlock argue. If only there was something to bond them together…
Eir Stegalkin: Yes, I know what might help. Caithe, I have to leave as well. I fear this meeting was a mistake, but maybe I can fix it.

I was like wait where is she going? Then AC popped up and I was like “oh hey, there she is!” and instantly went to check it out.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

And what happens if you don’t have exactly multiple of 5 of playerstrying to get in? Or you only have 3 players? Are those 3 players left outside the door wasting their time and needing to spam LFG to start the content?

Ready-up checkbox.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

Do Dynamic events require 4 other people to start one?

Is that a trick question? Of course they don’t require that enough people be there to start… but on the other hand, you may need a minimum >1 to finish (successfully).

DoctorOverlord.8620:

Does WvW completely stop unless you have 4 other people with you?

In the sense that the server closes? No. In the sense that doing anything meaningful becomes impossible? Well, if you count enemies amongst the 4, it’ll stop a lot sooner than that, since they’re the whole basis of the content. If those are still plentiful… well, do you feel lucky?

DoctorOverlord.8620:

Do you have to wait for 4 other people to walk up to the door and teleport into your Personal Story instance to start it?

That would be silly. Only one of us needs walk to the door, then the rest get a confirmation message.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

You are talking about forced grouping. It requires a set number of people. If one of those people has to leave the group because the cat just got caught in the dryer, you can’t go on with the content.

Are you assuming this because it’s a hypothetical situation, or are you under the impression it actually enforces that five-person thing? ‘Cause… it doesn’t. MF in particular can be done with 1-5, completely. Those with mechanics that require more will still let you in, even then. If you really desperately need to replace someone dislodging their cat, you can even send someone out to find a replacement and return, or invite someone from your contacts list (they get the prompt to join you there upon entering the appropriate zone).

DoctorOverlord.8620:

None of the other systems I’ve mention have those limitations and it is brilliant of ArenaNet to have expanded on way to let people play together without forcing them to play together. Unfortunately, that innovative thinking has been abandoned when it comes to their storylines for some unfathomable reason.

You include events in this? And WvW?

What actually constitutes being forced together, if things like being unable to finish (or progress in WvW’s case, since it can’t be ended early by victory conditions) don’t count?

LameFox.6349:

DoctorOverlord.8620:

…Dynamic events can be done without forced grouping. WvW can be done without forced grouping. Our Personal Story can be done without forced grouping.

Hypothetically speaking… suppose you had alternate-reality MF, with the sole difference being that to get in people walk up to the door, enter a queue, and are teleported into the instance 5 at a time.

Forced grouping, or ‘event’?

Honestly…it would at least help a little. By no means perfect, as you’re still stuck in a 5-man instance with it being a carp-shoot whether the others are competant or completely worthless, but it’d help. Combine this with a checkpoint for each room (not necessarily a respawn point, but a checkpoint), so that whenever someone drops out, you’ll immediately have someone else dropped near the group with a minimum of wait for them to catch up.
One of the big strengths of GW2 as far as multiplayer goes is their open-world events, where people can drop in and leave as they choose (and as they realize they’re in over their heads, or don’t have enough time, or whatever), with no need of tired old formal partying and all the problems that go along with it. As few or as many people can participate at a time as feel like it, without feeling forced to join in just because you were in the vicinity. Options, and choice, where the current story-enders take away any choice other than ‘party up or get nothing at all’.

Vulpis.8063:

…I am…I have…mine…

I’m really very surprised that someone who seemingly cares so much for this story has not paid attention to any of it. The thread that links the entire personal story together is that we can not do this alone. We NEED help. We MUST band together. Why WOULDN’T you need more people for the final push? Why are you so wrapped up in complaining about something that held a message you didn’t pay any attention to?

Vulpis.8063:

Weeeeak, and would be classified as a wallbanger had it been put in print rather than a game.

Well now it’s just a matter of tastes. If I read something in which one person is the end all be all most powerful greatest person ever, it’s a snooze fest. I want to see companionship and teamwork, not some mary sue story where the main character can just do everything alone and is the best winner evar. Just because your tastes don’t line up with Anet’s doesn’t make it a bad choice on their part.

Jemmi.6058:

The dungeons are portrayed as mandatory as the personal story. That is, neither are mandatory. They are only needed if you want the story.

And that’s the crux of the issue with me. The story is given to us without any need to group. We’re shown the vast majority of the personal story without any need to group.

Then after we’ve gotten invested in following the story, suddenly we need to group to see the end.

It’s like watching Game of Thrones for the entire season then finding out you have to go out to bar with 4 of your friends (not 3 friends or 7 friends but only 4) to see the last 20 mins of the season finale. Sure you can do it, but that doesn’t make it any less irritating.

I didn’t know that the Story Mode dungeons were optional but I completed them anyways and got to see Logan and Rytlock kiss… and make ou-up. Make up. It was a very touching moment and the greatest thing ever and now I know why there’s a charr ghost in the game.

The only charr ghost ever. True fact. He’s like classic evil villain now.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

Jemmi.6058:

The dungeons are portrayed as mandatory as the personal story. That is, neither are mandatory. They are only needed if you want the story.

And that’s the crux of the issue with me. The story is given to us without any need to group. We’re shown the vast majority of the personal story without any need to group.

Then after we’ve gotten invested in following the story, suddenly we need to group to see the end.

It’s like watching Game of Thrones for the entire season then finding out you have to go out to bar with 4 of your friends (not 3 friends or 7 friends but only 4) to see the last 20 mins of the season finale. Sure you can do it, but that doesn’t make it any less irritating.

Oh my god, that would be the coolest thing ever! Please show me what bar has HBO on their TV!

Xalugami.2096:

LameFox.6349:

Xalugami.2096:

I know The Herald sends a message before the Ascalonian Catacombs intro about the inclusion of dungeons to your story, although I can’t find any direct text (I have my character slots full so I can’t speed to 20 to check) of the message. So due to my lack of resources I’ll drop this point since I lack the facts. If anyone per chance has this message from The Herald, it would be nice to clear up what it says.

After consulting with the alt-fleet I did manage to find one where I hadn’t been cleaning the inbox, which contained this. AFAIK it’s the earliest thing they send you.

Bonus content from the screencap folder (apparently you can’t copy/paste in-game mail): Is it slanty in here or is it just me?

Ah ha, that seems about right. Thank you for taking the time for screen-capping that.

So I was incorrect in my memory of him/her saying you will be needed with Destiny’s Edge in the future. My apologies for bringing that up with false claims, however I feel that the Destiny’s Edge storyline was being so hard-pressed throughout your journey that one could argue it’s still a vital role in your Personal Story and bound to join the two at some point. I suppose you can think of it as the side-quests needed to get the “true ending”.

Most of your Personal Story is solo’ing, Most of the Destiny’s Edge story is dungeoneering. So (If you’ve followed [DE] in the Dungeons you knew their plan for Arah) gathering up a team of your own to combine with Destiny’s Edge and the Pact for the big dungeon “hurrah!” still shouldn’t be too big of a surprise, really.

If we’re bouncing around facts here, it never says Personal Story is pure solo content either, but it is easy to get into assumptions if nothing forces you to break the mold (something I feel Ascalonian Catacombs should have done to begin with, rather than “Surprise! Arah!”).

True enough—a more consistant game plan might have been to, say, have a mandatory dungeon at the end of each of the personal story chapters instead of the ‘Rocks fall, everyone Dungeons’ 2×4-to-the-head method they did use. Granted, it would drive a significant portion of players away from bothering with the Personal story at all (and possibly away from GW2 as a whole, given that one of their big selling points from the start was this personal story focused around you) but at least they could validly claim this is the way it was set up all the way through.

The fact that you find it irritating is not Anet’s doing. That’s your own thing.

I’m still curious as to why people push so hard to make this game fit how they want to play it, instead of going out and finding a game that fits how they actually want to play.

Whatever you’re looking for, it clearly isn’t here.

The game he’s looking for is very clear!

He wants to play Guild Wars 1.

Quick question! Have you taken the time outside of the game to read the GW2 novels to further build upon your Personal Story?

DoctorOverlord.8620:

Jemmi.6058:

The dungeons are portrayed as mandatory as the personal story. That is, neither are mandatory. They are only needed if you want the story.

And that’s the crux of the issue with me. The story is given to us without any need to group. We’re shown the vast majority of the personal story without any need to group.

Then after we’ve gotten invested in following the story, suddenly we need to group to see the end.

It’s like watching Game of Thrones for the entire season then finding out you have to go out to bar with 4 of your friends (not 3 friends or 7 friends but only 4) to see the last 20 mins of the season finale. Sure you can do it, but that doesn’t make it any less irritating.

The point of what others were saying, and that I was adding on to, was that Personal Story Dungeons were shown to you at level 30. This is hardly tacked on at the end. These are as much a part of the story as the Arah Story mode.

I understand why it can be annoying that it changed at the end, as the rest was solo. As I have already stated though, here are my counter thoughts:
1. I would have preferred every single story step be a mission requiring a group (like GW1)

2. They are providing content that appeals to all crowds, and that means sometimes you will be disappointed and sometimes I will be disappointed. It’s the nature of trying to please everyone.

3. You can look at it that it started with solo and ended with group. I look at it that waaay to much of the content is soloable and boring and only a fraction is group stuff and fun.

4. In terms of story, it made sense that a group was suddenly required. The Elder Dragon can supposedly kill gods, so why do you think you can kill it solo? I think they should have simply not made killing Zhaitan part of the personal story, and had it end at the mission before. This would have made a large portion of the story crowd happier I think.

5 In terms of Living Story, which is what this is focused on, it wasn’t a consistent set of many solo missions ending with 1 group event like personal story. It was an evolution of the story. First you just saw refugees, then you had a lost and found scavenger hunt, then you had 1-man mini dungeons, then you had a group dungeon. No two parts of the story evolution was the same, so you cannot state that it was one-way throughout and ended another. If you take that argument, there should have been no combat as it started without combat. (I hope you can agree with me that no combat would have been silly and boring).

LameFox.6349:

In the sense that the server closes? No. In the sense that doing anything meaningful becomes impossible? Well, if you count enemies amongst the 4, it’ll stop a lot sooner than that, since they’re the whole basis of the content. If those are still plentiful… well, do you feel lucky?

I have played lone-wolf countless times in WvW. If you played WvW at all then you must have been ganked by a solo thief more than once. You can play WvW entirely by yourself, that’s actually a very interesting change of pace from following the zerg.

I won’t address your other points because I think there is a communication issue here.

MF in particular can be done with 1-5,

You need to clarify what exactly are you talking about, because it is nothing like the 5-man dungeons that are the topic of this thread. Again what happens to people if you don’t have mutiples of 5?

What do you mean by ‘Ready-up checkbox’? You need to go into more details about what you’re talking about.

Jemmi.6058:

DoctorOverlord.8620:

Jemmi.6058:

The dungeons are portrayed as mandatory as the personal story. That is, neither are mandatory. They are only needed if you want the story.

And that’s the crux of the issue with me. The story is given to us without any need to group. We’re shown the vast majority of the personal story without any need to group.

Then after we’ve gotten invested in following the story, suddenly we need to group to see the end.

It’s like watching Game of Thrones for the entire season then finding out you have to go out to bar with 4 of your friends (not 3 friends or 7 friends but only 4) to see the last 20 mins of the season finale. Sure you can do it, but that doesn’t make it any less irritating.

5 In terms of Living Story, which is what this is focused on, it wasn’t a consistent set of many solo missions ending with 1 group event like personal story. It was an evolution of the story. First you just saw refugees, then you had a lost and found scavenger hunt, then you had 1-man mini dungeons, then you had a group dungeon. No two parts of the story evolution was the same, so you cannot state that it was one-way throughout and ended another. If you take that argument, there should have been no combat as it started without combat. (I hope you can agree with me that no combat would have been silly and boring).

Very true. I don’t mind fixing signs or clicking on wounded npcs but oh my god, if I have to go on another scavenger hunt across Southsun Cove for a broken toy soldier who’s place changes every day and I have to use Dulfy to find it… I’ll… I’ll… Huff and I’ll puff and I’ll do it anyways! Annoying as it was, it was some interesting bit of personal lore about some npcs I never met and will never talk to ever again once they disappear from LA. Every bit of the Living Story was different and only Rox/Braham’s “Save the peoples/critters” was the only thing that was a copy of Personal Story quests.

Vulpis.8063:

LameFox.6349:

DoctorOverlord.8620:

…Dynamic events can be done without forced grouping. WvW can be done without forced grouping. Our Personal Story can be done without forced grouping.

Hypothetically speaking… suppose you had alternate-reality MF, with the sole difference being that to get in people walk up to the door, enter a queue, and are teleported into the instance 5 at a time.

Forced grouping, or ‘event’?

Honestly…it would at least help a little. By no means perfect, as you’re still stuck in a 5-man instance with it being a carp-shoot whether the others are competant or completely worthless, but it’d help. Combine this with a checkpoint for each room (not necessarily a respawn point, but a checkpoint), so that whenever someone drops out, you’ll immediately have someone else dropped near the group with a minimum of wait for them to catch up.
One of the big strengths of GW2 as far as multiplayer goes is their open-world events, where people can drop in and leave as they choose (and as they realize they’re in over their heads, or don’t have enough time, or whatever), with no need of tired old formal partying and all the problems that go along with it. As few or as many people can participate at a time as feel like it, without feeling forced to join in just because you were in the vicinity. Options, and choice, where the current story-enders take away any choice other than ‘party up or get nothing at all’.

The waypoints already allow pretty much that same function: if you replace someone they’ll come in the door, then (when nobody is in combat, which… oddly enough… includes fighting the ground with their face, or stomping environmental fire to death) they can teleport to the latest waypoint. Not sure if that’s just for MF, or dungeon wp’s in general don’t activate on a per-person basis now. If I remember maybe I’ll see if one activates when people run to it ahead of me next time I do AC or something (not that I’m likely to remember). So really all that’s missing is the queue.

As for the difficulty… I’m not sure how well shooting carp actually works, but don’t go to Orr.

Jemmi.6058:

Vulpis.8063:

In all fairness, it’s matter of viewpoint and interpretation of tone. What it really says basically boils down to ‘Hey, we unlocked a dungeon for you.’, with no indication of it being mandatory.

The dungeons are portrayed as mandatory as the personal story. That is, neither are mandatory. They are only needed if you want the story. Your first clue that Destiny’s Edge are part of the story is when you see them bicker in Lions Arch and then shortly after receive mail saying that Eir has run off to Ascalonian Catacombs (which she hinted at in the personal story instance).

TBH, I am surprised as a story lover that you were not hooked at the mystery around why she ran to AC. In the personal story instance, she said

Eir Stegalkin: It’s sad to see Logan and Rytlock argue. If only there was something to bond them together…
Eir Stegalkin: Yes, I know what might help. Caithe, I have to leave as well. I fear this meeting was a mistake, but maybe I can fix it.

I was like wait where is she going? Then AC popped up and I was like “oh hey, there she is!” and instantly went to check it out.

chuckle That is indeed a part of it as well—whether you actually have any liking for Destiny’s Edge or feel they have any worth to the current situation.

That scene in LA—shows me a group of has-beens who think they’re all that because they fought the last time. But instead of putting aside their differences and actually being useful now, they do nothing but squabble pettily and go running off their own directions. Why would I even want to associate with these people, much less go help them solve their little snit-fits? I’m busy with this thing called ‘Saving the World’—if they’re not going to help, I’d just as soon they stay out of my way so I can get the job done. If anything they’re a lesson in what not to do.

It seems like this whole thing is a matter of semantics. The game never tells you it’s “required” or “mandatory” to play the dungeons. Not in those words, nah. But the level 30 story for every. single. player. is a meeting of Destiny’s Edge. It MAKES it personal, and it marks the beginning of that story thread. It makes the story of this game versatile in that you get a main plot and a sub plot, but they’re all part of the whole story. There’s not a single piece of good fiction out there that only has one plot line. That’s tedius and boring. While Luke is fighting Vader, I also want to see what the others are up to on Endor. Even Shakespeare threw multiple sub plots into his plays, that’s how core this is to good story telling.

While it doesn’t beat you over the head with verbiage that says “now go here and do this because you have to”, and it isn’t progress blocking if you don’t complete them, you NEED to complete the Story Mode dungeons in order to fully consume the entire story. Just because you chose to play the portions of the story you did solo doesn’t mean you were “given access to all the story content solo” the entire way through, you just didn’t play the other parts. If you’re going solely by quest markers in the corner, maybe you’re missing the point of a living world.

I hate it when the forums do this, I’ll just respond as a big chunk going down from reading your posts in another tab.

Vulpis.8063:

M-M-M-Multi Post

I agree that ANet took the absolute worst time to push a Dungeon, when it really should have forced Ascalonian Catacombs first, at Lv.30.
“The Order needs time getting you registered, so why don’t you see what your old mentor is up to?”. Cue message from your mentor explaining the basis for AC Story mode, and why you should assist. * Added as a Personal Story step *.
That would have had the same end result ANet wanted, a dungeon intro, but without being at a ridiculous point in the story to do so.

Again, Personal Story was never solidified to be a Solo-Only story mode, it’s all just assumptions based on its entirety until the last mission. That being said, Personal Story is separated out of PvE, as are Dungeons, both of which being linked together (very weakly… again ANet’s fault for that). Neither of which are actually mandatory. You will have to play by ANet’s rules to beat ANet’s game though, no way around that. It was their [terrible] choice to wait so long to force dungeons, and the playerbase pays the price.

The Herald was my mistake, as posted earlier with help taking a screenie. But he is one persistent dude/tte, and the main story dungeon characters are tied directly into your Personal Storyline itself. So it was foreseeable.

Don’t wanna be this guy, but a certain saladbowl wielding vegetation kind of steals your story halfway in anyways. That’s besides the point.
The Pact has proven to be full of terrible members who repeatedly get one-shot in both gameplay and cutscenes alike, so it’s no surprise that they can’t handle a real threat. You need actual heroes. People without glass bones and paper skin. You aren’t alone in Tyria, and you do need their aid. Did you honestly expect to fight (ha) an Elder Dragon all alone? They eradicated everything in the past (save for a few lucky-luckies out there) and you think one lone hero would suffice? Cute, but noble; the world of Tyria is big, and so are the Elder Dragons.

This awkward push is again due to ANet’s laughably rushed storyline (its like they quit from Lv.55-76ish, and never looked at the earlier quests after making them).

Dungeon Stories still further your personal storyline, your mentor helped you and now you help your mentor (or skip it all for some reason and see the climax because ANet didn’t want dungeon progression? Yeah, even that sounds bad for the best excuse… helpful for alts though). All of that is grouped content so ending off in your 8/8th group content area doesn’t seem so foreign.

This last bit seems so insanely selfish I don’t even want to mention it, but here I go.
You aren’t the only hero, and you specifically need to find 4 more, so of course you all get equal credit. The fate of the world is in the balance and you complain that since people helped you, all 5 of you become nobodies? Not only that, but if you do the Story dungeon, you are the one to reform Destiny’s Edge. They’re only able to help because of your acts of valor. But then you claim they steal the show? They’re practically your [non-join-able] Guild now!

Besides, the battle is so horrible, you’ll feel terrible for finishing it. I’d rather kick a puppy and get a medal, same concept but with 10 minutes less of pressing [ 2 ] and sleeping on my desk.

I still agree, it was a ridiculously bad design flaw not to force the dungeons in the first place. Despite not being called Personal Story Dungeons, they still make up a huge portion of your story, clearly shown by the fact the final mission is a dungeon itself.

A hero’s gotta do what a hero’s gotta do. Like it or not. It’s up to you to decide if it’s worth a try, or let it sit & whither.
This is ANet’s game with ANet’s [awkward] ruleset. They wanted a dungeon push, and they added one [horribly].

Vulpis.8063:

chuckle That is indeed a part of it as well—whether you actually have any liking for Destiny’s Edge or feel they have any worth to the current situation.

That scene in LA—shows me a group of has-beens who think they’re all that because they fought the last time. But instead of putting aside their differences and actually being useful now, they do nothing but squabble pettily and go running off their own directions. Why would I even want to associate with these people, much less go help them solve their little snit-fits? I’m busy with this thing called ‘Saving the World’—if they’re not going to help, I’d just as soon they stay out of my way so I can get the job done. If anything they’re a lesson in what not to do.

Just going to start out by saying that this is going to be my last post on this subject in here. I think I have stated my opinion and points. However, I’d like to address your most recent post.

One reason you may want to go check out these people is because they may tell you what not to do.

Another reason you may want to go check out these people is because one of them was your mentor for the previous 20 levels.

Another reason you may to go check out these people is because they have actually gone and battled dragons before.

So you do not like their characters and decide to ignore their story completely. That is your own fault that you are ignoring a significant part of the story. IMO their story is much more important to the primary plot of the game than 3/4 of the personal story missions.

You are showing that you clearly do not know how the story ends, as you are disregarding them so quickly. That is also a poor choice on your own part, and an example of something not to do.

If you like the story at all, I strongly recommend you go play the story mode dungeons in order. I’d even be happy to go along with you if you like.

Main point: just because you do not like a character, does not mean they are not vital to the story as a whole. I do not know of a story where there isn’t at least 1 important character that I personally do not like.

@ OP:
I hope it does. ^^

Jemmi.6058:

1. I would have preferred every single story step be a mission requiring a group (like GW1)

On this point I agree 100%. If the ending of a story arc is going to require a group then ALL of the story arc should require a group.

People who can’t or don’t like to do dungeons would never even see that story arc and they would never even know what they are missing anything because it would all be in the dungeons.

Keep in mind, I would only see this as a good idea this logic was follow and there would also be story and lore content offered that can be accessed solely through solo content. That story and lore could be what would be shared by the entire GW2 community. I assume you’re not suggesting that ALL story and lore should accessibly only through grouping?

4. In terms of story, it made sense that a group was suddenly required. The Elder Dragon can supposedly kill gods, so why do you think you can kill it solo?

How about putting my character in charge of an army, or at least an assault force like the fort battle?

If you take that argument, there should have been no combat as it started without combat. (I hope you can agree with me that no combat would have been silly and boring).

I’m not talking about the content, I’m talking about the way the content is presented. Same as the point above, there is a difference between playing solo with a bunch of NPCs and seeing nothing but your character alone on the screen.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

If you take that argument, there should have been no combat as it started without combat. (I hope you can agree with me that no combat would have been silly and boring).

I’m not talking about the content, I’m talking about the way the content is presented. Same as the point above, there is a difference between playing solo with a bunch of NPCs and seeing nothing but your character alone on the screen.

Argggh I said the last post was my last, but I could not resist.

You only copied half my quote and then misunderstood entirely! The content is presented in different ways throughout each step in an evolution. Read it again:

First you just saw refugees, then you had a lost and found scavenger hunt, then you had 1-man mini dungeons, then you had a group dungeon. No two parts of the story evolution was the same, so you cannot state that it was one-way throughout and ended another.

Snype Cyclos.7391:

The fact that you find it irritating is not Anet’s doing. That’s your own thing.

I’m still curious as to why people push so hard to make this game fit how they want to play it, instead of going out and finding a game that fits how they actually want to play.

Whatever you’re looking for, it clearly isn’t here.

Well, that’s the problem here—I did go out and find a game that fits how I play and paid for it—and then find out that in the very last page of the story, they suddenly change things up to the very gameplay I was trying to get away from by playing this game in fhe first place.

In another post you make a comment about dungeons having ‘Story Mode’. Quite right! However, it’s a different story. The dungeons are Destiny’s Edge’s story, rather than your story as the Personal story is.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

I have played lone-wolf countless times in WvW. If you played WvW at all then you must have been ganked by a solo thief more than once. You can play WvW entirely by yourself, that’s actually a very interesting change of pace from following the zerg.

So have I, but while it’s viable in an ‘I can run around and kill/annoy things’ sense, the broader objectives aren’t really going to happen if there aren’t a few other players on your side to help fight against the swarm (unless you wait until most of them get bored of it and leave, I guess).

DoctorOverlord.8620:

I won’t address your other points because I think there is a communication issue here.

MF in particular can be done with 1-5,

You’re saying this hypothetical thing can be done with 1-5 people? You need to clarify what exactly are you talking about, because it is nothing like the 5-man dungeons that are the topic of this thread. You said that this thing would bring in people in groups of 5. Again what happens to people if you don’t have mutiples of 5?

Both the hypothetical and actual MF can be done with no less than one, and no more than five. The pop-up saying five are recommended is not actually binding. Not only will it let you inside alone or with a small group, but if you’re the sort of person who felt Diablo 3 was too easy pre-Inferno (and it kinda was), you can even finish it alone.

Some dungeons do need you to do things one person literally cannot complete though, like in CoF where you all flip separate switches simultaneously. It’ll still let you in though, you’ll just have some issues being in so many places at once. Or be frustrated at the stupidity of your mesmer clones.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

What do you mean by ‘Ready-up checkbox’? You need to go into more details about what you’re talking about.

Suppose you’re on a dead server at a dead time of day: you enter the queue, and there are three other people. Nothing changes for a bit. You figure you might as well give it a shot, since anything is better than sitting at the door, so you click ‘ready’ on the ‘would you like to enter blah blah blah’ context window. The others see a green tick next to ‘player 4’ or your name, depending how much detail it wants to go into, and two of them also click ‘ready’. A short timer counts down, and the three of you are warped in, while the last guy sits outside using his keyboard as a pillow.

It actually seems convenient for completely unrelated reasons to me, not sure why they don’t have such a thing.

Jemmi.6058:

DoctorOverlord.8620:

Jemmi.6058:

The dungeons are portrayed as mandatory as the personal story. That is, neither are mandatory. They are only needed if you want the story.

And that’s the crux of the issue with me. The story is given to us without any need to group. We’re shown the vast majority of the personal story without any need to group.

Then after we’ve gotten invested in following the story, suddenly we need to group to see the end.

It’s like watching Game of Thrones for the entire season then finding out you have to go out to bar with 4 of your friends (not 3 friends or 7 friends but only 4) to see the last 20 mins of the season finale. Sure you can do it, but that doesn’t make it any less irritating.

The point of what others were saying, and that I was adding on to, was that Personal Story Dungeons were shown to you at level 30. This is hardly tacked on at the end. These are as much a part of the story as the Arah Story mode.

Except…they aren’t Personal Story dungeons, they’re the story of Destiny’s Edge and what they did after they ran away from that meeting in LA, leaving you to go gather the Pact and such to save the world without them. Arah needs to be split—the first part, where you finish up getting DE back together and help them jack a ride to the Big Battle needs to remain a dungeon, just like the rest of the story. But the part actually at the battle, where you lead the Pact allies you’ve been collecting through the Personal story into the fight, (and have the Edge swoop in A-Team style), through to beating the Big Bad? That should be group-optional, same as the entire rest of that story.

Vulpis.8063:

In another post you make a comment about dungeons having ‘Story Mode’. Quite right! However, it’s a different story. The dungeons are Destiny’s Edge’s story, rather than your story as the Personal story is.

You missed my post that said both stories are two plots of a single story.

Snype Cyclos.7391:

It seems like this whole thing is a matter of semantics. The game never tells you it’s “required” or “mandatory” to play the dungeons. Not in those words, nah. But the level 30 story for every. single. player. is a meeting of Destiny’s Edge. It MAKES it personal, and it marks the beginning of that story thread. It makes the story of this game versatile in that you get a main plot and a sub plot, but they’re all part of the whole story. There’s not a single piece of good fiction out there that only has one plot line. That’s tedius and boring. While Luke is fighting Vader, I also want to see what the others are up to on Endor. Even Shakespeare threw multiple sub plots into his plays, that’s how core this is to good story telling.

laugh Yep…it makes it personal that I want to stay away from these people, and not have their squabbling make the job even harder. And equally, yup we saw what was happening back down below—but at the same time, Luke was up there finishing his personal story with his father and the emperor—he didn’t suddenly pull along a pack of Ewoks to help.

Snype Cyclos.7391:

Vulpis.8063:

In another post you make a comment about dungeons having ‘Story Mode’. Quite right! However, it’s a different story. The dungeons are Destiny’s Edge’s story, rather than your story as the Personal story is.

You missed my post that said both stories are two plots of a single story.

Right—with one being a side plot where depending on how you’re looking at it (at least the way it’s presented her), it doesn’t especially even make sense that you’re even there in it.

Then again, it occurs to me I’m rather influenced by having just read the entire Dragonriders of Pern Trilogy again, which has a companion trilogy, Harper Hall. The stories are primarily separate but running in parallel, with characters crossing over between the two, and incidents in influencing or being referenced to in the other, without the reader actually having to read both trilogies to get the story (though getting more understanding of the whole if they do).

Xalugami.2096:

I hate it when the forums do this, I’ll just respond as a big chunk going down from reading your posts in another tab.

Vulpis.8063:

M-M-M-Multi Post

<Much snippage.>

Yeah, I hate splitting up a post like that—and not too fond of making a lot of postings, either—but I’’d rather quote relevant parts as best I can and respond to them in detail. I’ve seen too many times of people twisting words with ‘creative editing’ of what they’re quoting to be comfortable otherwise.

As for the rest of your post—not really much to reply to pointwise, but overall, I quite agree with you. Pacing and organizing the gameplay the way you describe would have been a lot more consistant, sensible, and to a degree more professional quality-wise than the way Anet has done it. OTOH, it definitely would not be a game I’d pay money for and play personally, but what can you do.

I just wanted to make a quick comment here really fast about the term “Personal” Story.

It seems to me like some people are using it as a point as “I AM THE STORY!”, but not following through with it. Yes, the story is personal because you are taking part in the actions happening in the game, at all times. The Personal Story Steps are chosen to guide you along the overarching goal of confronting an Elder Dragon, but everything you do in between is still your personal story, albeit undocumented.

So don’t get locked into the notion of “If the game isn’t focusing me directly, it’s not a story point”.

.

Side Note: If you guys really want to, we can run the dungeon(s) together someday, but you guys can all hide the Party UI, and we can all talk through /say if it makes you feel more comfortable. There’s literally nothing wrong with the party system, and I find the dungeons are very.. err.. palatable after a few runs & knowing the mechanics.
Feel free to accept/decline my offer as ever you wish, your choice (send me a mail in-game if you’d like). You’ll never know until you try it.

Also probably my last post here tonight, as I’m going to head onto GW1 to help some Guildies get started for the HoM, and then hop onto GW2 for dailies. I believe I’ve posted enough about my opinions, but feel free to message or whisper if you’d like to chat about anything else. Glad to finally toss around a topic without anyone resorting to insults or profanity and anger.

Again, it’s a semantics thing. It’s called a Personal Story because you personalize it. You choose which paths your start with, which paths you take, but everyone ultimately ends up at the same place. They called it a Personal Story for those reasons, because depending on which paths you choose your story could have different paths than someone else, all ultimately ending in the same goal of taking down a dragon.

You’re confusing “Personal Story” with “the only story important to the game”. It’s not. If it’s the only segment of the story that you care about, fine. But just know that you’re going to be disappointed when the game continues on around you and you’re not willing to take part in it.