Guild Wars 2

Some of the personal story stuff sounds a bit contrived.

The quest, event dialogues seem fine.

On the other hand – the random bits of dialogue you pick up while you’re running by NPCs are kind of awesome. I was idling in a tavern in Queensdale where one of the patrons starts speaking to the bartender about how his wife is pregnant again, and the dialogue there is hilarious. The stuff in LA is fun, too. There are small movie references sprinkled here and there.

The NPC bits outside of the personal story line seem like a deal of work went into them. Maybe they’re just much more fun to write.

If we compare GW2 to other story telling MMOs out there – GW2’s doing bad, really bad, job.
Although the new dialogue cut scene system looks good, it is… well, bad – the characters just look at each other from an awkward angle, with no body language, nor touch or anything – and every bad sentence tend to feel even more awkward.
Plus, background story were lame, and didn’t feel half heroic; We were a tool to present a narrative, not its content. “here is a sylvari in distress, do something for them”, “here some human bandits doing bad things, react”.

If you want to make ME the center of the universe, check out SW:TOR – it made you feel awesome and that everything you choose or say has a meaning – you started as a bloody slave and end up killing a sith lord and join the dark council.
On second hand, if you want to show me the world, look at The Secret World – it reveals only little to let you yearn to learn and see more of the secrets this world possesses – revealing clues of things to come, with twists and dark humor.

I also think the voice acting is not working most of the time, especially when it feels like conversations aren’t in a continuous flood.
It sometimes feels like the next speaker do not even know or heard what the previous one said.

And i believe some stories are feeling plain weird (maybe it’s just me).
My 2nd character (not even lv 20 yet) is good, fighting anything close to or being evil.
And she is a necromancer…
The good thing is that made me laugh a lot (maybe it’s intended).

I think another problem is how quickly things are forgotten.

For example, the orphanage/hospital burns down, and you never hear about it again. If a major character dies you never hear about them again. Once you leave your city you don’t ever get called back to catch up with your supposed life-long friends. Once your Orders main story is done, you don’t get called back for any extra assignments.

It feels very unrealistic that you just bounce between these sections of the story without much overlap or callback.

BobbyStein.2315:

We may address this at some point.

Address as in add some extra stuff for it’s conclusion or add a continuation?

Because the problem I have right now is after you finish the story arc you hear nothing about them and I haven’t seen anything about them elsewhere (like in the home instance). Picking up the story in the future is awesome but even a word about their current whereabouts while you go off with one of the Orders and then fight Zhaitan is what I (and what I think the person you replied to) is what is being looked for.

I find the dialog to be basically fine, minus trahearne.

My 2nd character (not even lv 20 yet) is good, fighting anything close to or being evil.
And she is a necromancer…

Necromancers aren’t considered “evil” by default in the Guild Wars universe. While they’re often ruthless, many of the Necro characters you’ll run into are just regular people, who are frequently good and lawful types as dedicated to fighting evil as anyone else.

The writing team has said that the player character is always presented as a hero in the personal story.

Bonefield.9813:

My 2nd character (not even lv 20 yet) is good, fighting anything close to or being evil.
And she is a necromancer…

Necromancers aren’t considered “evil” by default in the Guild Wars universe. While they’re often ruthless, many of the Necro characters you’ll run into are just regular people, who are frequently good and lawful types as dedicated to fighting evil as anyone else.

The writing team has said that the player character is always presented as a hero in the personal story.

The issue, I think, is that necromancers deal in death and undead, but are treated as having zero connection to Zhaitan. Despite sharing a method with the Big Bad, nobody seems to be the slightest bit concerned about necromancers as a whole, and where their loyalties lie.

Yes, we know that necromancers have nothing to do with Zhaitan. But that doesn’t mean all the NPCs in the world should know this. There’s plenty of room for hate groups and misunderstandings and a huge, wide gray area of misplaced hatred and uncertainty.

But Anet never capitalizes on it, which is a huge shame.

my personal complaint is the player controlled fem norn voice. the voice actress sounds terribly bored. she could be in the middle of the battle of the century and she’ll still talk like she’s in a cubicle giving tech support. her lack of expression goes beyond story cinematics, but abilities as well. compare a male human screaming things like “On my mark” and “Shake it off” to a fem norn’s.. she’s so monotone.

@Any dev here
Just to say, if you get to implement a replay of the personal story trough some way from your home instance cough a asura/charr replica of the scrying pool cough and get the VAs (or even new ones – would be better in some cases) to do different voice/character type options, i would buy em (and i mean real money, not gold to gems to shop), since it would be worth giving like 10£ so that i get a cynical, british, a tad pessimistic tomboy that doesnt cry because of a dead bone minion and sticks to the type of character i chose in conversations (as in if going all out diplomatic, you dont flirt or say that you will punch kitten or even worse say well this is the plan, run for it!) or a shy charr whos sire is a traitor, but that still tought him the powers to fight back oppressors, doesnt know how to make a giant freaking lazor cannon, but knows how to… well lets say summon a massive lightning elemental and likes to do the field research side, not kill this so that we get results or activate this so that we get results and after a while, when on orr and he finds a searing cauldron, remembers that it stands for everything that charr shouldnt do!

Seriously, general personality change packs would be epic for the store!

Andele.1306:

@Any dev here
Just to say, if you get to implement a replay of the personal story trough some way from your home instance cough a asura/charr replica of the scrying pool cough and get the VAs (or even new ones – would be better in some cases) to do different voice/character type options, i would buy em (and i mean real money, not gold to gems to shop), since it would be worth giving like 10£ so that i get a cynical, british, a tad pessimistic tomboy that doesnt cry because of a dead bone minion and sticks to the type of character i chose in conversations (as in if going all out diplomatic, you dont flirt or say that you will punch kitten or even worse say well this is the plan, run for it!) or a shy charr whos sire is a traitor, but that still tought him the powers to fight back oppressors, doesnt know how to make a giant freaking lazor cannon, but knows how to… well lets say summon a massive lightning elemental and likes to do the field research side, not kill this so that we get results or activate this so that we get results and after a while, when on orr and he finds a searing cauldron, remembers that it stands for everything that charr shouldnt do!

Seriously, general personality change packs would be epic for the store!

I wouldn’t pay for it. That’s a total ripoff, and could be deemed a bait-and-switch.

another problem is that we have the same voices allover ther should ahve been more variety and also a chocie for our own char

read chioice sorry

Female charr sounds like a computerized telephone voice.

To LIS-ten TO YOUR new MEsages, PRESS one

To HEAR the MENU again, PRESS 0.

I don’t know, like she’s using a device to talk for her instead of using her own voice? The inflection is always in the wrong place. She sounds robotic like a golem. Really makes me think I’d just made a male charr.

“Yes-I-will-make-sure-to-get-to-the-bottom-of-thissssssss”

I was honestly surprised by the presence of a plot at all. I thought, “The only people who could care about this are the RPers, surely, and they’re the ones for whom none of it can ever be canonical.” I mean, if it were canonical IC, everyone’s character would have exactly the same back-story with a few variations. They would all have roughly the same personality (i.e. not much of one), etc.

I couldn’t help but wonder who the plot is actually for. It’s nice-ish to see a plot in an MMO, but I’m not really sure if it’s a suitable medium for that kind of storytelling. For sit-back-and-watch storytelling, sure, like playing a footsoldier in the background while the scripted, fleshed-out NPC heroes get all the glory. But with every single player being a fairly central character, with every single player being the glorious, laurelled hero, all of the accomplishments in the plot feel a bit cheap. You think, “How many Almighty Champions of Everything are in this room right now, other than me? 20? 30?”

This is my feeling on MMORPGs (Not RPGs, specifically MMORPGs) making You, the Player Character, The Hero: It doesn’t work. The very concept is immersion breaking. Being A Hero works, but not The Hero.

The best comparisons I can make are these games:

City of Heroes/Champions Online – Opinions on the games aside, and just focusing on how they approached it, you were A Hero, and became somebody special to the Big Names in the universe. It worked because of the whole concept – this is a world with a lot of spandex, and you’re one of many. The narratives were overarching and general, and it rarely came down to You Must Save The Day – it was usually you pitching in, so epic were these threats.

World of Warcraft – What I liked about this all seven years I played was that even when you did big things, you were always a cog in the machine, just another soldier/adventurer. Sure, you were around for some important moments, but you weren’t Leonidas giving the speech, you weren’t even one of his officers. You were one of the grunts. I thought it was pretty brilliant, considering the RTS roots. It helped the player world feel “lived in”, raid farming aside (and GW2 is just as guilty of instance farming if anyone wants to play that card).

The Old Republic – The problem with Old Republic is that no matter what, you were The Chosen One. You are the Chosen One of the Jedi Consulars. As an Operative/Agent you are a specific Darth’s “Hand”. You’re The Best Bounty Hunter in the galaxy, proof by contest. As a Smuggler, you’re essentially Han Solo with the Millennium Falcon – not any smuggler with a rustbucket, it’s a very specific tale. As a Jedi Guardian you…well, there’s a key story moment to the whole franchise there.

It sounds awesome…except in an MMO. Partied with friends or strangers of the same class? They have your exact sidekick. The same status, if you play together. It bugged me, and I’m not even a heavy roleplayer.

I truly do love most game’s lore and stories (even WoW,), but when you want to make the player character the focus in the way Old Republic or GW2 does …it doesn’t work, by virtue of the game being massively multiplayer.

PsionicDingo.2065:

This is my feeling on MMORPGs (Not RPGs, specifically MMORPGs) making You, the Player Character, The Hero: It doesn’t work. The very concept is immersion breaking. Being A Hero works, but not The Hero.

I seriously have never understood this issue. What’s so hard about ignoring the fact that other players are playing through the same story? How is it any different than two people playing the same singleplayer RPG? I don’t see how my personal story is cheapened in any way because someone else played through their personal story. I don’t look at other players and think, “Oh no, they’re all supposedly buddies with Destiny’s Edge too. I guess I’m not special.” I don’t see other players as factoring into the story, and I don’t think you’re supposed to.

Cliff.2803:

PsionicDingo.2065:

This is my feeling on MMORPGs (Not RPGs, specifically MMORPGs) making You, the Player Character, The Hero: It doesn’t work. The very concept is immersion breaking. Being A Hero works, but not The Hero.

I seriously have never understood this issue. What’s so hard about ignoring the fact that other players are playing through the same story? How is it any different than two people playing the same singleplayer RPG? I don’t see how my personal story is cheapened in any way because someone else played through their personal story. I don’t look at other players and think, “Oh no, they’re all supposedly buddies with Destiny’s Edge too. I guess I’m not special.” I don’t see other players as factoring into the story, and I don’t think you’re supposed to.

Well why should you have to ignore that others play the game? I’m not saying the highly personal story is really that bad but it does horribly break the immersion of the story. In a single player game you are not constantly surrounded by the evidence that everyone else is the chosen one and there is a lot more impact from your character in a single player RPG that an MMO really can’t live up to.

The story isn’t bad but from a character building standpoint I can’t regard it as much more as a pretty cinematic that happens every so often after I beat up a lot of things. It’s not a feeling of not being special, it’s more that it’s just so glaringly obvious you aren’t the big awesome hero the story says that it falls flat. The model where you are a hero but not THE hero works nicely because it balances you doing something impressive and heroic without having to ignore that everyone else in the game world is THE hero to feel immersed.

The story I like but I can’t say it’s very personal.

PsionicDingo.2065:

It sounds awesome…except in an MMO. Partied with friends or strangers of the same class? They have your exact sidekick. The same status, if you play together. It bugged me, and I’m not even a heavy roleplayer.

I truly do love most game’s lore and stories (even WoW,), but when you want to make the player character the focus in the way Old Republic or GW2 does …it doesn’t work, by virtue of the game being massively multiplayer.

I’d definitely disagree. Particularly because in GW2, the personal story isn’t personal. If the issue is about having the same status, GW2 is the epitome of that. By the end of it all, all players have essentially become the same thing. Yet, you ignore that fact.

At least TOR made stories have important variation (the Imperial Agent in particular has quite a few important variables that are important in the plot). Things you did come back. GW2? Your choices have little to no significance . Insofar as what you are saying about equal status in TOR, that’s a personal issue with suspension of disbelief. Star Wars stories always take place in a haziness.

The Guild Wars 2 story will be the same. “Trahearne’s Lieutenant” will likely never get a specific race or gender or order. But the issue with the presentation here is that they will forever be known as Trahearne’s second in command and not anything else.

That is to say nothing of the terrible way in which the plot fails to branch. In fact, it is a reverse branch. As time goes on, a character’s story (and by virtue, the character) becomes less and less unique. It’s terribly lazy.

What personally kind of bothered me is even though I’m supposed to be a vigil warmaster. None of the vigil soldiers out there in the world seem to acknowledge this at all. They will adress my character exactly the same as any other person.
Aside from the fact that I can buy vigil weapons/armor and am allowed in through the asura gate to fort trinity, there is nothing that makes me feel that I’m part of the vigil outside of the personal story line.

Made a post with a few suggestions how to make this better over in the Suggestions forum:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Personal-Story-Immersion-dialog-suggestions/first#post367938

The first time around Trahearne didn’t bother me initally but his ‘This will not end well’ started getting on my nerves (though once I hit Orr, I totally agreed with him).

After seeing that I am going to have to tolerate him again on my 2nd and 3rd passes (2 remaining Orders) I feel like I should just cry, or buy a lawn l mower and prove Tra right…

Morthur.3894:

I’m sorry to say that I also found the dialogue in the personal story very weak. I think a large factor is also how the story is presented: all key events are set in stone – whenever a cut scene fires it’s basically “meh” because everything I did before it and everything that comes after are totally and utterly irrelevant and have zero impact on the cut scene. It’s like they happened in a universe of their own.

I would almost agree, but what I latch onto mostly is this:

Morthur.3894:

…everything I did before it and everything that comes after are totally and utterly irrelevant and have zero impact on the cut scene. It’s like they happened in a universe of their own.

The different branches from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, etc, all feel utterly and totally disconnected. Most characters you meet disappear entirely and completely, never to be seen or reflected on again, never to impact the story beyond the ten minutes you spent with them. The characters that do recur don’t really feel like they grow, develop, or change at all between story steps. I’d bet everything that happened outside of the current 10-level bracket is just some null oblivion in their memory.

Nothing has a lasting impact. Nothing.

And if the intended effect was that each 10-level story path was a short story all its own, that could stand on its own merits…

Well, each 10-level step is more like a page than a short story, you know what I mean? Very short. And of course each page is disconnected from the next. That’s how I feel having played this game. Like I just read 8 individual pages, each almost entirely independent from the last, some characters getting a paragraph’s worth of mention and others half a sentence before they disappear.

Not, satisfying.

So far the end of “The Steel Tide” is the worst example I’ve seen. The end battle, specifically the pacing and dialog between the two friendly NPCs. It all reminded me of a high school improv group I saw recently.

The “Sam! No! Not you Sam! Not you!” bit…wow.

Still not sure if that was an attempt at drama or parody. Either way it failed.

“My good and excellent friends! "
-Prince Rurik

I would say Anet has come along way! Some of the character interactions have actually touched me (Forgal here’s looking at you buddy) on a level usually reserved for a book series I am 4-5 five books into.

I say nice work guys and gals!

PsionicDingo.2065:

This is my feeling on MMORPGs (Not RPGs, specifically MMORPGs) making You, the Player Character, The Hero: It doesn’t work. The very concept is immersion breaking. Being A Hero works, but not The Hero.

I’ve felt for a while now a suitable MMO story is simple, there is a massive world war going on. There are multiple fronts, so multiple areas you may encounter, there’s your zones and variations, but all part of the same overall war. Use WW2 theater history for inspiration, but fit your lore/theme.

Every quest revolves something around forwarding the war effort for your side. No quests of “can you get me apples for a pie?” or “bandits over there being jerks”. It would be “go get these supplies so we can take them to the front line”," take these supplies to the front", “get this intel to the frontline”, “find the spies amongst us”, fight at the front, “return this from the front back home”. Play that scene out.

Then on to the next front, with it’s own story and characters, each growing in size and scope.

But all quest there is an urgency to support the war, because this is serious and we have to do it pronto or we lose everything. You don’t have to be the one, your just one moving the cause forward until success.

I believe it’s a simple formula, but a believable one of what would really happen in an epic story. No major off-shoots that make you lose focus of the grand story, constant direction of forwarding the war effort until the end.

CelticWish.2314:

PsionicDingo.2065:

This is my feeling on MMORPGs (Not RPGs, specifically MMORPGs) making You, the Player Character, The Hero: It doesn’t work. The very concept is immersion breaking. Being A Hero works, but not The Hero.

I’ve felt for a while now a suitable MMO story is simple, there is a massive world war going on. There are multiple fronts, so multiple areas you may encounter, there’s your zones and variations, but all part of the same overall war. Use WW2 theater history for inspiration, but fit your lore/theme.

Every quest revolves something around forwarding the war effort for your side. No quests of “can you get me apples for a pie?” or “bandits over there being jerks”. It would be “go get these supplies so we can take them to the front line”," take these supplies to the front", “get this intel to the frontline”, “find the spies amongst us”, fight at the front, “return this from the front back home”. Play that scene out.

Then on to the next front, with it’s own story and characters, each growing in size and scope.

But all quest there is an urgency to support the war, because this is serious and we have to do it pronto or we lose everything. You don’t have to be the one, your just one moving the cause forward until success.

I believe it’s a simple formula, but a believable one of what would really happen in an epic story. No major off-shoots that make you lose focus of the grand story, constant direction of forwarding the war effort until the end.

It can even work if you don’t have the PCs start as part of the war effort. Wherever they start, the war should touch that area. “Beat up the bandits because they robbed me” doesn’t hold nearly as much context as, “Bandit attacks are on the rise, because the war has left the local militia thin and unable to properly police the roads.”

After browsing the forums, I have seen a lot of posts/complaints about the dialog/personal story and similar issues. First let me state that I did not buy GW2 expecting a riveting story, I wanted a cool, fun game, which I got. Being an author myself and rather picky about what I read, I look at this as a game, not as a quality literary product. That being said, some things could be improved. A lot. And it all has to do with immersion.

For me, GW1 took one big step towards being an immersive world with Nightfall. Did the writing suddenly turn stellar? Was the plot more original? Not really. The main difference was the fact that suddenly you were one of a group of people working against a common goal, people that traveled with you as heroes, that saved your life and which you grew to love (or hate). I found myself drawn to actually liking some of them, and by the end Koss was my bro, instead of the annoying prat I had him pegged for at the start.

I can see that Anet is trying something similar here, with the Destiny’s Edge framework. The problem here is that here we have no interaction with most of the characters, and thus form no bonds. We are spectators to someone else’s RP campaign, and just like it is never a good idea to talk about the awesome campaign you just finished at a party, this is another case of you had to be there. It falls flat without the framework of the heroes.

So what has GW2 done well?

Dynamic events and NPC’s out in the world. They are brilliantly done, I don’t know if it is a different writing team, or whether it is just the creativity that comes from working without constraint, but here everything flows. I often find myself lingering to listen in on conversations in bars and camps, dynamic events flow nicely in and out of each other, and there are enough little gems out there that makes me smile at least once per session. The only thing I want here is more, and well, I have no doubt that more will be added as the game ages and focus can shift from bugs and balance to fine tuning and adding content. I can never go back to quest the old fashioned way, ever again. Big thumbs up here.

So why do the personal story kitten so hard then? Three reasons.

The cutscene movies. I realize they can’t be changed now, but never, EVER do this again. The best script in the world would fall flat with this treatment, it tears you right out of immersion and into first year school play. If you can’t go the whole nine yards like in DA2 (understandable), then stick to game environments and game figures like in the world events. Seriously. That way our own brains will fill in a lot of the information missing. As it is now, it is like first generation computer effects in movies, just awkwardly bad. For me, this feel like a budget cut, that more might have been intended but time and money ran out. Skip it.

It tries to pretend it is about you. In Nightfall, for example, you were never given any character. You were the nameless hero hanging out with these dudes, leaving you free to make up your own background. Once you have established friends and family, you need to go for it, otherwise people will just feel cheated. Add to this the lack of reply options (apart from paths), the lack of use for the personality bar, people just fading away when there is no use for them, the empty home instance… it just feels shallow. In this case, the cake is a lie.

The dialog/VA. This varies. Some VA are great, others not, some writing is done well, other lines make me cringe. But everything could be improved by one small thing: For kitten’s sake, stop using the character’s title everywhere! I know you can’t use every person’s name. It’s not that. It’s about the first rule of how characters talk. You do NOT mention the other person by name all the time. Seriously. This is one of the basic rules of screenwriting. Sometimes a title is appropriate, but the way people use it here is a lazy, sloppy way to make sure we know people are talking to us, and not someone else. You can write dialog that does that without the constant ‘Valiant’ or ‘Hero’. Trust me. This is half of what makes it smell like a bad C-movie.

The lack of movement and facial expression is what does it for me. Some of the dialogue is campy, sure, but when they are delivering lines with deadpan faces and postures, it kills it for me. The lines themselves can be cheesy as long as they’re delivered right and there’s more to delivery than voice.

EDIT Snipped a broken quote.

I really hope ANet people are reading these, because many of the posters above make very sensible arguments/suggestions, particularly the idea that the personal story should only ever attempt to treat you like a decent adventurer/credit to the team, not as a central figure, because that leads you to ask: “If I’m so gosh-darn important, why can’t I make any of the important choices?”

Also:

I seriously have never understood this issue. What’s so hard about ignoring the fact that other players are playing through the same story?

It’s the fact that all these players are obviously just as capable as you. As soon as you leave your personal story instance, you go back to a world that will never recognise you as anything extraordinary – you’re just another combat adventurer with a job to do. That’s exactly how you should be treated in the PS as well.

^Right, you should be treated as a soldier. Thanked for your hard work and dedication, nearly anomalously.

I was analyzing a bit for fun and thought that I would write down everything regarding the flaws in GW 2 that revolve around narrative (how you tell the story) and the story (what is actually happening), but I noticed it would take far too much of my time to do so (even this post took me far greater time then I intended). I also suspect no one wants to read through several pages of text, so I just want to throw my voice into the others and say that there are significant problems and I hope you can find the solution for them in the midst of all this feedback.

I’ll leave with some quick tips (SPOILERS AHEAD).

Focus on improving dialog by:
Making sure you know the characters and make sure they have real depth to them. I’ve always found making character diamonds help if you want to be sure you know that you have a real character. If you feel you don’t need to make a character diamond to someone as his/her role is so small, then you probably don’t need that character at all.

Keep the characters:
You introduce (sometimes very poorly) and kill off characters too quickly for anyone to get a real connection to them, hence they feel insignificant and a waste of time. Keep them around, have fewer characters and make sure you they get more then one minute screen time before you bid them farewell.

Don’t be afraid of bringing someone back later as well, either alive or dead.
I still remember the shock of meeting Rurik…

Zhatain, go kill it:
If you introduce the goal for my journey in the very beginning, then there is no tension.

Why?

Because I know I will achieve it and survive it as this is a mmo game, so you can’t kill my character. If you introduce the goal in the beginning, you also need a factor of uncertainty which usually revolves around survivability.

Lord of The Rings is a great example as you don’t know if Frodo will survive or what toll it will take on him. Nightfall is a good example (as it’s GW) where you didn’t know you’d be up against Abaddon yet you knew it somehow revolved around him, so it was a very interesting journey to have compared to GW2.

It is of course possible in a game to have tension and introduce the goal in the beginning, if something/someone is at stake that makes it interesting.
I feel GW 2 does not have this.

Story Structure:
The structure for the story is rather weird as it’s very sporadic and very little actually goes together. I’d say streamline it and focus on fewer events (say three acts, always a good fallback to use) which stretches on for longer and contains more interesting missions.

Story Missions:
Right now most story missions end too quickly and contain very little interesting events. Why not take a look at how you did it in Guild Wars? Some of those were actually very interesting and the length usually provided ample opportunity to introduce characters and different events that you needed to know about. It’s at least better than:

1) Jump into a lake 2) Swim to the point
3) Grab the Object 4) Return where you started.

That is an actual story quest for those who’re wondering.
I also don’t mean to just add more combat to a mission as that would not help the issue.

And finally, as this has gone on far too long as it is:

Focus on making choices actually matter. There is little to no effect from the choices I do, so there is little incentive for me to care. This also makes the whole “personal” story not very personal.

Please also do a check on the “Set to Blow” story mission. Here your character is talking to Tybalt about things you have no idea about. When was this mentioned? Why did my character know this? This actually left me very confused and I even had to check the wiki to see if I had missed anything, which I hadn’t. In other words, make sure you have presented the information before you make my character act like he knows it.

Now I’ve certainly written far too much so I hope this was an intresting read for someone.

edit:
Malin.2490 is completly right as well. Good post.

Along with some of the hookie dialogue is some really horrible choices for voices. Without providing too much of a spoiler, one of my toon’s personal stories has him interact with Ogres. The Ogre chief is obviously male. The voice actor is obviously female, trying to talk with a deep voice to impersonate a man… trying to sound like an Ogre.

I’ve noticed this a number of times where they really didn’t consider the voice for the NPC. Sad really; they could have done much much better.

BobbyStein.2315:

Greyfeld.7104:

Garrus.9803:

Actually I disagree. I admit that some of the dialogue isn’t that great but overall I think it’s pretty good. Tybalt Leftpaw (an Order of Whispers character) had some of the best dialogue I’ve seen in an MMO. If you came into this game expecting Mass Effect quality dialogue you’re going to be disappointed. But if you take it for what it is it’s good.

If by “Mass Effect quality dialogue,” you mean “dialogue that’s natural and believable,” then yeah, I did.

Nobody TALKS like this. That’s my point. It’s stilted and extremely campy and sounds like something you would expect from amateur hour at your local community theater.

For the record, it’s not the fault of the voice-actors, it’s the script that’s the problem.

In what content is the writing/VO problematic for you? The ambient world stuff? The personal story? The dungeons? They were all handled differently. The more specific examples you give, the better we can understand your feedback. I realize that this post is in the personal story section, but I want to know if your criticism is limited to that.

Thanks!

I always find my self not even listening to the cutscene dialogue, when it’s over I’m always like “wait, whats going on ? Can I play that back ?” I always have to read the objective summary in the corner to grasp what’s going on.

The thing I hate most is my own character’s dialogue (human noble) and how she is so dang chummy with Lord Farren.
I hate Lord Farren and I want my character to hate Lord Farren too.

I made my human character after deleting my Norn version of her. My norn character was a big dumb hot-headed go-getter who’s every line was “leave it to me, I’ll bring home the biggest baddest trophy in all of Holbrak !”
Oh God Norn sure you will…..

I’m a big fan of the bad guys in a movie or game, for example the Sith in the Starwars saga (never played the old republic so I have no idea). I’d like my character to have somekind of evil or antagonistic personality, rather than be the super hero that everyone praises.

Idk, if I’m concerned with a story line maybe I should stop complaining here and go try out swtor, although I’m afraid to after hearing all the bad reviews.

Voice Acting
The voice quality drew me out of the story a bit, although, I love the voice of the male charr. Yes, and the script is just as guilty. Some conversations had a good feel, at some points I even laughed, but on far too many occasions I just shook my head. For the expansion, it really requires some work.

Dialogue scenes
When I first read about the inclusion of dialogue cutscenes, it intrigued me, because it was something different. Now, I can honestly say its terrible. It feels so rigid, and formal. As Malin pointed out, there’s the simple matter of immersion, which it completely throws out the door. You feel taken away, and I can’t help but think that the whole thing could have been done better.

Story Impact
I loved compiling a biography, and seeing it play out was amazing. Then, nothing mattered any more. Euryale, the survivor of my warband, faded into the background; the fact that I helped redeem my father, a shaman, was never referenced again; even the order I chose made little difference in Orr. Nor did the choices I made during the Orrian mission really have any impact.

Now it’s fun to point hindrances out, but here’s how I would have liked it to have played out:
- When I joined my order, I would have liked it if my warband and chosen legion perhaps had in impact on that. Sure, it’s a new beginning for my character, I appreciate that fact, but my heritage should have played into that.
Maybe my warband could have assisted on some missions, and helped out at a few spots.

- I allied with the skritt, and gained their trust, but honestly, did it mean anything. Why didn’t they help me out at Claw Island. Or more to the point, why weren’t they at my side at Orr. Which brings me to my biggest complaint…

- Orr. Everything before Orr felt irrelevant. My warband, supposedly my brethren through thick and fin, wasn’t even at my side. The skritt, whom I toiled to aid me in the troubles ahead, didn’t assist me on my missions. But most of all, the orders blended into one encompassing pact. That didn’t even make any sense. Why were the Priory (scholars), and the Whispers (agents of espionage) all on the front lines.

Why didn’t past decisions play into Orr, and why didn’t the pact differentiate themselves a bit more. The vigil doing missions head on, the Priory focusing on lost artifacts and arcane lore, while the Whispers reconnoiter to find weaknesses.

Even the choices at the end should have had unique impacts. Rather than strings of missions that eventually met up at the same point, why couldn’t choices have changed entire aspects of the level. Like changing the enemies, or adding in new objectives, or causing quest parameters to flow in a different way.

The problem was, yeah, we had choices, but it felt like none of it really mattered.

Greyfeld.7104:

The only character I’ve really connected with like that, thusfar, is Magister Sieran. Her tendency toward quirky curiosity, desire to devour knowledge, and propensity for bucking off the rules to do just that, made me love the hell out of her. Not to mention the fact that she’s the proof that Sylvari blondes actually exist.

Love her.

The problem with her is, after five minutes of watching her antics i understood why noone takes Priory seriously. And the fact that my character was supposed to agree with her on everything (suggesting i was a dangerously naive idiot as well) was terribly irritating.

Also, it’s not her curiosity that is her defining feature. It’s the fact that she seems to have misplaced her brain somewhere. She is a flat stereotype that is just completely wrong in the place of your mentor.

Forgal is a good and likable character, you can really see him as a person. Destiny’s Edge… they would be okay if they were not so central to the story. I still dislike most of them, but i do dislike them as a people, and because they try to crowd me out of the storyline so much.

Trahaerne… don’t let me start on him. We don’t need more Kormirs in the game (and Kormir was actually less of a cardboard cutout)

Edit: also, i completely agree with the poster above on all of his points.

I found the personal story forgettable as a whole. It adds nothing to my personal character as every choice is forgotten by the next mission. The only positive I saw in it is the snippets of lore you could gain from missions, but that had nothing to do with the way the story was handled, only that they included lore in the story.

This can’t be considered a branching story, branches diverge, they never converge. Decisions consist of doing a couple of alternative missions, then completely forgetting that decision ever existed in the first place.

More on topic with the title of the thread, the dialogue was pretty hit and miss. I wasn’t overly distressed by it, but I wouldn’t consider it good. I have low expectations, I guess.

Hmm… maybe it’s really a personal preference. To be honest, I found the concept of having a personal story refreshing and very enjoyable compared to other MMO’s like WoW. Maybe you guys play the game with a different mindset, but I really dig the fact that my character is a main actor in the story leading to the defeat of the Elder Dragons. It made me that much more invested in the character of my Avatar.

I really don’t think, “gosh, everyone else playing this game is playing THE hero as well”. There’s a certain level of suspension of disbelief that you need to get past and just enjoy imagining your avatar as the hero.

I certainly don’t have problems with the dialogue. As someone who never played Mass Effect or Dragon Age or SW:TOR, I came into this game with just the expectation that the story telling would be just like WoW – you know, you come across an NPC, help her kill the spiders in her apple orchard, and you’re done – and you can’t help feeling that you’re doing chores for people. I was pleasantly surprised to see that they had actually fleshed out a story for YOUR character in this game, and this is actually one of the highlights of GW2 for me.

The dialogue really doesn’t bother me, and I like it enough that I take the time to listen to them talk.

What I am really deeply concerned about, however, is the fact that after level 40, the story shifts from you on to Trahearne. I have nothing good to say about this guy, and it was such a major disappointment to have him “star” in the story when you’re the one doing the actual footwork. Whatever virtual sense of accomplishment you have on your character goes down the drain. It really doesn’t help that his character is very bland, very unconvincing, and very very flat.

ANet, I DON’T want to be part of a “team” as the other people here have indicated. I would have beem extremely fine with the state of the personal story, were it not for Trahearne. I play this game, I’m the one doing the stuff – why should anyone else get credit? It just doesn’t make sense to me.

Personal stories must remain just that – a story centered around YOUR character.

As for the dialogue, I love the dialogue in this game, whether it be the one off dialogues in the cities, or the dialogues in the personal story. The voice acting is fine for me. Again, all of these are good, except for Trahearne. I don’t know why there is a radical shift in quality when it came to this character but it seems that everything that could go wrong with Trahearne just really went really really wrong (voice acting, dialogue, role in the personal story, etc etc).

I’ve actually been enjoying the personal stories, but now I have two of my characters up past 60 and I can see how much the same they are. Before then, they really did feel different, but what others have mentioned really stand out for me now. What happened to my sister (human), where is my warband (charr), and I honestly don’t remember a thing about caladbolg with my sylvari.

I will say, I did love the children at the Destiny’s Edge meeting. And one of the best lines that made me truly laugh, I was in a Norn bar, I stopped in to look at the ‘Giganticus Moosicus’ head on the wall. Out of nowhere, a male charr exclaims in a VERY loud voice, “I want to drink something that’s on fire!”

More awkward dialogue with Tactician Beirne and Crusader Deborah:

In no more than 2 lines of dialogue, Deborah switches from “Oh no, this can’t be happening” to an uninterested “Oh well, I couldn’t care less. Come dog, we’re getting out of here.”

Also the switches between calling him Sam and Beirne seem weird.

Play an Asuran. Alot of the dialogue is from Zojja, voice-acted by Felicia Day.

If you do not like that story, you shouldn’t be playing MMOs, because she is the coolest person on the interwebz!

I’m fine with being a team player in the story – that makes sense for an MMO, actually.

But if Trahearne is supposed to be the leader / manager / diplomat and I’m supposed to be the field lieutenant / commander, why is Trahearne showing up in the field missions? Isn’t the whole point of him being the Pact leader that he knows about Orr, Zhaitan, etc and is the general of the whole shebang? Generals lead in the large battles, sure, but they have a command tent set up in the back. For smaller missions, they stay at HQ. Commanders go to the front lines. These are 2 totally different jobs, and the way Trahearne gets both is kind of annoying. If that was cleared up and if it was made clear that Trahearne’s position was the faction leader I think that would help.

Also, any way you can tie the storylines together would be good. For Charr, maybe the warband backs you up on the story missions. For Sylvari, a reprise of Tiachren or Carys and Tegwen? Asura could call on their krewe. Not sure about other races, but I’m sure there could be a pool of people to call on for Norn and humans too. That would make the story a lot more meaningful right away.

World recognition might be good also. Random spoken dialog about your victory over Zhaitan probably can’t really be updated without breaking immersion for new players, but when a PC talks to an NPC adding a check to change the greeting to “Hero of Tyria!”, or something would be nice. I haven’t seen any of that, if it is in the game somewhere.

Basically just adding in little bits of NPC awareness of the PC would make the world a lot more meaningful.

My issues with the personal story:

1. Not everyone can be a kitten, Arenanet. It’s hard to feel proud of being the commander of a coalition of the three major Orders and the slayer of Zhaitan when EVERYONE ELSE IN THE GAME can say the same thing. No, not everyone has completed Arah or even finished their personal story, but if they took the time to do that then that is exactly what would occur. When everyone’s a hero, nobody is.

2. As mentioned in another thread, the entire point of a branching storyline falls apart when it all leads to the same ending. For (sort of) the same reason most people hated the Mass Effect 3 ending, no matter what choices I make in my journey to get there, I always become the slayer of Zhaitan. Not only does it make these choices seem weightless, but it adds to the problem in #1. I know it takes a massive amount of development time and effort, but I think myself and the community would be suitably impressed if you managed to make multiple possible endings for your personal story. For example,

- You fight Zhaitan and help cleanse Orr. Basically what we already have.
- You boss it up in Frostgorge Sound and help the Kodan against Jormag. (I haven’t explored there thoroughly yet. I’m assuming there’s kodan and stuff, but I don’t have a good grasp on the area’s storyline.)
- You help gather up Destiny’s Edge for Round 2 against Kralkatorrik.
- Building on my early Asura personal storyline, Kudu steals my Infinity ball and tries to destroy the world with it. Would culminate in Crucible of Eternity somehow.

I think multiple endings would definitely help the personal story be more personal.

3. Stop killing people off without a kitten good reason. The sacrifice of Tybalt was pretty well-done, but once Orr comes around this just falls apart.

-One of the Pale Reavers dies because she stays behind so that she can signal the artillery strike. First off, I probably would have actually felt something if I was a sylvari and experienced them from low level, but being an asura, (who are both arrogant and used to people spontaneously dying from experiments gone wrong) I didn’t really know or care for her. Second, and more importantly, why didn’t we realize one of us wasn’t going to make it out alive earlier!? Surely one of us would have commented to Geargrind, “Hey, wait a minute, if one of us stays behind to send the signal, won’t that kill us?” You don’t send soldiers this high up on the totem pole on a suicide mission without letting them know its a suicide mission. Why didn’t you make the signal fail to go off or something, giving the Sylvari a reason to stay behind and fix it or something?

-There was some type of escort mission with the people from the human starting area, who, again, I didn’t particularly care about. All’s going well until a champion wraith appears! Oh no! What will we do?! Luckily for us, the wraith has about 1/10th of its proper HP and no damage, so the group kills it in about 10 seconds. But wait! It healed back up to half health again! Suddenly a wild cutscene appears, and the NPCs are complaining about how the Wraith is “too strong!” They’re helpless against the Wraith as it’s about to finish one of them off! But then another NPC I didn’t know or care about sacrifices herself to save him! Meanwhile, what the hell am I doing as the group’s leader during the cutscene? Charging for a kamehameha? Possibly. When the cutscene ends, we kill the Wraith again in about 9 seconds this time. Probably the least believable quest I’ve ever seen in an MMO.

To end on a positive note though, you guys at Arenanet have come the closest by far to creating not only A personal story, but a good one. The final battle against the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan was an absolute blast, and the first time in the game that I’ve managed to make it past the first track in my BossBattle playlist! And the personal story from levels 1-30 was absolutely fantastic! It’s clear from that alone that you guys are more than capable of making a great personal story.

Edit: Gilosean.3805 have you finished the personal story? I got almost 10 levels worth of content in Orr about Tegwyn and Carys in my personal story, despite not knowing jack about them beforehand. If someone else is actually getting my krewe to help them, I’m gonna be mad…

Alright, I know that I’m going to restate a lot of what has already been said in this thread, but I’d rather talk too much than not give the devs sufficient feedback.

There are several completely separate problems with the personal stories at the moment. I’m going to address them individually and offer suggestions for the next game / expansions (it’s unreasonable to expect major changes from existing content).

1. One-Dimensional Characters: As others have already stated, an NPC’s race seems to completely determine its mentality. This wouldn’t be major problem if it was handled subtly or interestingly, but it isn’t. The only exception I’ve run across is Tybolt. He was interesting precisely because he was a contradiction to his race. If you want a compelling story, you need to make unique characters. Give serious thought to their motivations, mind-set, and quirks. (That does not mean to always avoid stereotypes.) Above all, have an interesting antagonist. Zhaitan failed miserably in this regard. He was barely even present. IMO, the most interesting enemy is someone who might actually be doing the right thing. My favorite villain of all time (in games) is Saren from Mass Effect 1. Why? Because he truly believed he was doing the right thing, and there was a decent chance he was correct. He could easily have been the protagonist, and Shepard the antagonist.

2. Voiced Protagonist: This one is somewhat arguable based on personal preference. But many people have their own expectations for their characters. For example, I created a hulking Norn who I imagined was extremely dim-witted but fond of violence (sort of like the Hulk). However, my character breaks that fantasy every time he opens his mouth in a cut-scene. Having a silent protagonist is much preferable for role-players (Skyrim is a perfect example), and I would recommend at least considering it for GW3. Let players select their choice of responses from a limited selection, or at the very least tailor automated player responses to their personality score.

3. No Choices / Consequences: I realize that making branching and intertwining story paths is extremely hard and time-consuming. But if you want a genuinely personal story, there is no getting around it. Players need to be able to make decisions which effect their game 20+ levels on. Having a squad of potential followers (Bioware style) would be a huge benefit in this regard. They would allow for consequences without requiring massive changes to the larger story. However, if you’re feeling particularly ambitious, then feel free to include massive story branches as well (maybe the player wants to side with the antagonist in GW3?)

4. No Protagonist Progression: If the player character is a hero by the end of the prologue, then what room is there to advance? In your effort to make everyone always feel like a hero, you’ve done the exact opposite. There’s a reason why “peasant rising from obscurity to become a hero” is a fantasy stereotype (it is effective at creating character growth). If you really want players to start at the top, then you have to arrange for them to fall back to the bottom later on before climbing back again (this can sometimes repeat multiple times). Failure defines character every bit as much as success does. Just don’t make it predictable. Most failures should occur suddenly, without warning.

5. Lack of Plot Complexity: This is a big one. Most of the stories from level 1-20 were pretty good (if predictable). But afterwards the story takes a nosedive. The story needs to grow more complex, not less. Hint at things and let players figure them out instead of telling players outright. Have plot twists, but make sure they are sensible and rare enough not to be anticipated. Lastly, do not be afraid to include an abundance of moral quandaries. Players will remember those hard decisions long after they would have forgotten standard quests.

The Pale Reaver that dies actually really made me upset, you see her a fair bit in one of the Sylvari storylines, but I’ve also seen her in at least three other storylines on non-Sylvari characters. I’ve found the deaths in Orr are much more ‘effective’ when you’ve played through on a few different characters, made different choices and the like, since you see much more of most of the NPCs you meet in Orr: Elle, Zott, Jayne, Tegwyn, Galina, Snarl, and some others I can’t remember off the top of my head.

I have to really disagree with a lot of people here. I’ve played all human options, two to 80, making a point of picking different options to experience every variant I can.

I loved the human male noble VO. I loved the acting, the way the lines were delivered. I loved the lines. I loved the wry good humour of dealing with Faren’s buffoonery. I laughed and cheered in delight at how the human male noble accepted the entitled behaviour of his friend, because in my books, that sealed the deal for him being a believeable character.
I very much enjoyed the human female commoner storyline. The actress was spunky, determined, and strong. The lines were plausible, empowered without being rebellious when she spoke with the Seraph Captain, deferential without being obsequious with Countess Anise, and generally level headed and a great female character.

Also…
The lines mentioned where you tell the Asuran woman her husband is dead were some of the best moments I’ve had in a game. her reaction is SO flat that it underscores the trauma. Her flat denial of forgiveness for the player, her total rejection? Freaking brilliant. Great script, amazing delivery.

The only complaint I honestly have, and it’s hardly one, is that playing 3 storylines, you’re going to repeat the voice actor eventually. It was wierd hearing my awesome human noble be a street rat!

Actually, a second. The name of the sister.
My human male noble is Ascalonian. I went with a Saxon name: Ahrwit. It combines terms relating to honour with a suffix for cunning.
So having Ahrwit blather about “Debs” kind of.. bugged me. I treat that section as not ‘me’.
<.<

Was doing one of the later Orr missions and were paired up with a couple of bickering charr. The exclamation from one of them right before the first fight is priceless

Greyfeld.7104:

For the record, I don’t have a problem with the visuals on the cutscenes (I’ve played plenty of low-budget RPGs that went the “cardboard cutout” route), but admittedly, I think I’d rather just watch the characters stand around in the real world and chat, rather than cut to a separate screen to do it.

That all said, I’m sure that a lack of movement and facial expression has something to do with the dialogue problems, but I’m not sure exactly how much. The dialogue itself is pretty cringe-worthy, before taking visuals into account.

I agree to this point. The cutscenes lack touch with reality. The characters’ facials and gestures just don’t fit what they say most of the time and it looks like it’s fake.
I’d rather just text boxes like we had them in Guild Wars 1. There’s no need to try to make it feel realistic, if it doesn’t seem realistic in the end. Just stick with the good old chat box.