Guild Wars 2

Voidrunner.5093:

he’s attractive
his voice is attractive
we are BFF’s

Like… really?

I liked Trahearne. He is second in Necromancy only to me.

Torvarren.6295:

I liked Trahearne. He is second in Necromancy only to me.

As in… he’s the first one you’ll make a minion out of?
I could see that.

I hate Trahearne, it’s true, I do.
I hate his talk.
I hate his walk.
I hate his everything.

I remember reading this thread and thought that I’d already posted re: my intense hatred of Trahearne, but I couldn’t find my post. So here goes:

The most important rule of storytelling is show, not tell.

Things told and not shown in game (as a non-sylvari):
Trahearne is the most knowledgeable person re: Orr
Trahearne has a good working relationship with the orders.
Trahearne has leadership experience and problem solving skills.
Trahearne is a powerful fighter (especially after acquiring the sword Caladbog).
Trahearne’s personal quest is to cleanse Orr and he has after two and a half decades of ??? suddenly developed the ability to do so.
The various orders are crippled by infighting (admittedly some of this is shown in game, but I would have appreciated actual conflict between the orders, more infighting / sniping at each other).

Shown in game:
A man with no personal charisma.
A man who is followed but who seems incapable of true leadership.
A stranger that makes me his second in command even though we’ve just met and I am closely affiliated with one order above the other two (indicating partiality re: one order above the others).
A man that fails to trust me (because he doesn’t actually know me) when Mesmer magic makes it look like I’ve done something terrible.
A Sylvari who’s motivations and history boil down to – ‘I am my mission’.

Trahearne is unable to connect to the playerbase because he is not a character, he’s a plot device. Depth of story and characterization require him to have flaws, history, and struggle — BEYOND the role that he’s been chosen to play, ie the cleansing of Orr. Ultimately he lacks all of them.

Ellen Keil, Rox/Brahm and even Lord Faren are far more effective characters and I’m happy to see that the game is progressing away from the Trahearne model. While I’m looking forward to seeing more about Marjory and Lady Kasmeer & el, I would still love to see additional conflict and drama in game.

Out of all of your characters I would have to say that I appreciate Logan’s place in the world the most. I love the way that other characters (notably Rytlock & Countess Anise) respond to and about Logan in game. I love that he’s more than a little bit arrogant, and also that he’s fairly unlikable due to his rigid code of conduct and his feelings about Jennah (who is way too young for him btw). It definitely gives me the sense of a dynamic world where the NPCs have thoughts and feelings of their own. I would love to see additional characters hatreds and loves show a little better, even if it’s just NPCs gossiping about them.

Trahearne is awful, but he’s just a victim of the writing that is almost universally bad in the game. Someone else pointed out the “Show, don’t tell” rule. Except, they don’t just tell you something. They yell it at you, send you a letter to confirm it, and then tattoo it onto their forehead so you can’t even look at them without being told once more.

What’s wrong about Treehorn? He’s the ideal leader of the Pact. You said it yourself, everyone hates him, so all three organizations are on equal footing.

Players want to be the star of the story. And not be forced to watch an npc’s story from the side of the stage.

This is the #1 problem with Trahearne, who in the human story, appears out of no where to steal the player’s thunder with zero lead-up. It’s understandable that WE can’t be the Hero remembered in the lore, I don’t think anyone expects the lore to be “And so the brave John Smith Pwns lead the pact, killed the elder dragon, and rose to glory.” but at a point where WE should be stepping up to a place of power or at least working up to equal footing to others in power, Trahearne magically steps in and sweeps that away.

I think the worst part is, he has no personality that we can even latch onto that makes him likable or believable. Tybalt felt like a person, Trahearne might as well be a golem. He is emotionless, seems to rely on us to help him out, and then runs off with all the glory. We are just there to be Trahearne’s forgotten, unimportant side kick. He personally doesn’t seem to value us, we build no personal feeling towards him.

I was left feeling like he stole the show and I’d rather not help him at all. Now Tybalt? I would have gone to the end of the world for… but Trahearne could rot for all I cared.

Unleashed.6195:

Trahearne is awful, but he’s just a victim of the writing that is almost universally bad in the game. Someone else pointed out the “Show, don’t tell” rule. Except, they don’t just tell you something. They yell it at you, send you a letter to confirm it, and then tattoo it onto their forehead so you can’t even look at them without being told once more.

Even better: show, don’t force the player to go and read the lore. Which most of the time is still disappointing.

Aerlen.5326:

It’s understandable that WE can’t be the Hero remembered in the lore, I don’t think anyone expects the lore to be “And so the brave John Smith Pwns lead the pact, killed the elder dragon, and rose to glory.”

If they need to mention the hero at all, they can just say that Zhaitan was defeated by the Pact, or by the hero of Shaemoor. You don’t need to call the character by name.

Trahearne is 100% not needed for the story. He has no reason to exist as a character (unless perhaps you are a Sylvari, but for the human/charr/norn/asura storylines, he could easily be left out).

Actually he cannot be left out. For only one reason: His Wyld Hunt about cleansing Orr. That is as important a part of defeating Zhaitan as any other step we take in Orr. Hoever, that could have been made into a simple mission chain without making him Marshal of the Pact on the way. Just like so many NPCs that you actually meet in your PS, then separate only to meet again in Orr later.

Sleel.8365:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yumae.7256:

I personally really hoped they were setting up Traherne to be another Pale Tree type thing. He sacrifices himself to cleanse Orr, and becomes a tree similar to the Pale Tree that gives life to the country again. Was actually very disappointed with the actual ending.

I’m fairly certain there’s a better reason for that than “we’re bringing him back again later for the next story arc”. I’m also . . . fairly certain he will get a heroic sacrifice later on. I can see no other end to his story arc if it’s intended he be a hero alongside the player and Destiny’s Edge.

I suppose another end could be him being killed off to prove a future opponent is very seriously deadly, but I think that could be a colossal waste of the character.

And how, pray tell, would killing him off prove an enemy was seriously deadly? When your average trash mob can take him out?

The average trash mob can take you out too if you’re not paying attention. (The AI frequently doesn’t seem to.)

But, if you insist.

Imagine if you will the next dragon campaign we undertake, the Pact forms up at a forward base again, and the repaired Glory of Tyria is there to make a show that we mortals can fight back. Destiny’s Edge and Trahearne (and the player character) are there to discuss what they know and then rally the forces to begin the first push. All looks like it’s going to be just another long campaign of pushing into the territory of, oooh, Kralkatorrik.

Only to have . . . say, the Shatterer descend with the intent not of winning but of doing as much damage as possible until it falls. It divebombs the repaired Glory of Tyria and rips out the mechanics so it can’t simply be repaired but must be rebuilt. Destiny’s Edge scramble to get people to the escape vessels and Trahearne tries to help with evacuating people from the lower decks with the player character. Only to have something explode and he falls out without something to catch him.

The next segment the Pact tries to mount a rescue mission and tension has regrown between the orders over who could not have seen this coming, and Trahearne is found broken in the midst of some Branded who have put his body up as a display to intimidate the Pact. “We can take even him out, at the moment of your brightest beginnings. What chance do any of you have?”

lakdav.3694:

Actually he cannot be left out. For only one reason: His Wyld Hunt about cleansing Orr. That is as important a part of defeating Zhaitan as any other step we take in Orr. Hoever, that could have been made into a simple mission chain without making him Marshal of the Pact on the way. Just like so many NPCs that you actually meet in your PS, then separate only to meet again in Orr later.

He could have been someone we pledged to help or who pledged his service to us. He could have still helped unite the Orders without being made Marshal. The fact he comes out of nowhere and is suddenly respected and followed like a god is troubling. It would have been more believable to have a member of Destiny’s Edge take up that mantle because we at least see that they are capable and we have gotten to know one of them through the PS. Unless you are sylvari, you hear nothing about Trahearne until Claw Island – foreshadowing would have been very important for a character meant to literally replace the player character in the story.

Thinking on this – I don’t think it would have been as awful of a story if someone like Eir or Logan or anyone ELSE with actual emotion, flaws, and personality had to step up. Someone you’ve known since Day One and someone who will treat you as a valued second in command instead of “Trahearne’s Tank So He Doesn’t Die”.

Aerlen.5326:

Thinking on this – I don’t think it would have been as awful of a story if someone like Eir or Logan or anyone ELSE with actual emotion, flaws, and personality had to step up. Someone you’ve known since Day One and someone who will treat you as a valued second in command instead of “Trahearne’s Tank So He Doesn’t Die”.

I think it could have been . . . hm . . . it could have been better but not likely.

Looking broader, Destiny’s Edge was always intended to be the NPC group with you to go kill the dragons. Tying one of them down as leader of the Pact makes less sense than having them be able to go “screw this politics stuff and let’s just go already”. Not to mention allowing Logan to take the leadership of the Pact means then he’d have to either leave Divinity’s Reach and the Seraph under someone else or it could be seen as the humans trying to seize control of the fight for their own ends. (Almost anyone else could have the same argument, except Trahearne and possibly Caithe since the sylvari are always more straightforward . . . okay, almost always, thank you Scarlet, get out.)

It’s a similar reason as to why one of the three Orders couldn’t put a representative up there to become Marshall, only it’s buried a little more.

Honestly, what it makes little sense for is for Trahearne to stay in the lead after the fight moves away from Orr. He’s supposed to cleanse Orr, but that task is not done yet. He’s only just getting started, so I’d expect him to abdicate in favor of the player character to kick off the next PS segment.

Why? Because there’s no other character to slide into his place as easily.

You know what would be interesting to see? A Sylvari failing their Wyld Hunt.

As for the past, seeing as how our Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 accounts are linked, I don’t see why ArenaNet couldn’t import our old characters’ name into the ‘unnamed hero from the past’.

ThiBash.5634:

You know what would be interesting to see? A Sylvari failing their Wyld Hunt.

As for the past, seeing as how our Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 accounts are linked, I don’t see why ArenaNet couldn’t import our old characters’ name into the ‘unnamed hero from the past’.

Even without this, it could be the same as KOTOR 2. “Darth Revan did such and such and then he did this.” (player choice) 1. Oh yeah, and then what? 2. I thought Revan was a woman.

Except, you know, with “I thought she was a Norn, I thought she was an Engineer” etc.

I wanted to add only to prove the underwhelming delivery of our personal stories.

Trahearne should be our puppet, our sidekick, our fodder that we can use to save ourselves during our personal story.

Not. Our. Leader.

….

Please have him stand down from the leader role and hand us his sword. I would much rather lead my troop into battle than him.

PlayerX.5307:

I wanted to add only to prove the underwhelming delivery of our personal stories.

Trahearne should be our puppet, our sidekick, our fodder that we can use to save ourselves during our personal story.

Not. Our. Leakitten lease have him stand down from the leader role and hand us his sword. I would much rather lead my troop into battle than him.

Exactly because he is your puppet he has to be the commander. If things go bad, he’ll take responsibility.

It would be cool if you gave him orders and remembered him that he is Grand Marshal as long as we need him.

redslion.9675:

PlayerX.5307:

I wanted to add only to prove the underwhelming delivery of our personal stories.

Trahearne should be our puppet, our sidekick, our fodder that we can use to save ourselves during our personal story.

Not. Our. Leakitten lease have him stand down from the leader role and hand us his sword. I would much rather lead my troop into battle than him.

Exactly because he is your puppet he has to be the commander. If things go bad, he’ll take responsibility.

It would be cool if you gave him orders and remembered him that he is Grand Marshal as long as we need him.

I want him to refer to me as “Supreme Commander of Allied Pact Forces in Greater Tyria” or some other such long impressive sounding title.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No, write both Trahearne and Destiny’s Edge out, and make the player the main character.

I understand your feelings, but I prefer it that way. In a traditional game, I do prefer to be the main character, but in a massive online game, not everyone of us can be the guy who killed Zhaitan. Simply put, there is not enough Zhaitans.

I prefer it that way: the legendary team is Destiny’s Edge, the commander is Trahearne, and I am one of the heroes who was on the flying boat, cleaning its deck from mobs and gunning down the dragon. That way, the story is the same for all of us, and our chars can “talk” with each other without killing themselves for being too much of a lier.

The problem here is that Trahearne is a plain character. Anyone of the partners from the three orders is A LOT more charismatic, and A LOT more closer to our characters. If Tybalt -for example- were the one saying “hey, I killed that Zhaitan, thanks to my buddy here!”, no one would complain about it. But Trahearne is not Tybalt, but a plain character imposed to us.

I didn’t reat the whole thread, but I was surprised that Zhaitan was not named too, because it seems those characters were developed by the same person. But lets just state the facts:

1.) Trahearne is in most missions totally weak and of no use, but he tells everyone what he has to do.
2.) He has no leadership and no character at all.
3.) Most people I talked with wished he’d be erased from the game.
4.) He is totally inferior to every other character in the game in style of concept etc.

Those are the main problems, but lets say something about Zhaitan:

1.) The end fight is long and a stupid bashing of key 2, nothing else. Only the animation is fairly cool.
2.) You always get to know what a kitten he’d be, but in the end, he got shot down by simple cannons and nothing else. As the whole story progresses towards Orr and Zhaitan, it is a bad joke.
3.) You always get informations about him, and most of the story is by far harder than the Boss himself. Meaning he is a sore loser commanding a lot of kitten undeads that are sometimes brutal. But in fact, even the temples of Orr that are before Arah, are by far harder than Zhaitan. Every Champ in the starter areas is by far harder than Zhaitan lol.
4.) And at least, what is said about HIM really? Just a dragon that wakes up, raises some undeads and needs to be killed. Wow, gr8. And about anything else I mean…? In GW1, we had the Lich, we had Shiro, we had Abaddon and we had at last the great destroyer and all of them were kittenes themselves with really unique histories. What is it here, really?

You understand the point I am trying to show? It is about the whole conception of character that is so much flawed here in GW2, especially for the end content. It is more like some kind of Arcade-Game, showing that this and that boss needs to be killed. In fact, the start of the story was by far more interesting than the end of the story. All those characters of the different orders, even the dungeon stories, everything was more interesting than Trahearne or Zhaitan would ever be.

Both of them lack the kitten, it is not really believable that they’d command such armies as they do. In fact, you are most likely more interested in the story missions before Zhaitan than in the story mission with Zhaitan himself. It is the same fail as with Trahearne, and therefore the same mistake that is shown through the whole story.

Trahearne is the Cartman to my Jimmy in the Fishsticks episode of Southpark.

DaKillaOfHell.5907:

I didn’t reat the whole thread, but I was surprised that Zhaitan was not named too, because it seems those characters were developed by the same person. But lets just state the facts:

1.) Trahearne is in most missions totally weak and of no use, but he tells everyone what he has to do.
2.) He has no leadership and no character at all.
3.) Most people I talked with wished he’d be erased from the game.
4.) He is totally inferior to every other character in the game in style of concept etc.

Those are the main problems, but lets say something about Zhaitan:

1.) The end fight is long and a stupid bashing of key 2, nothing else. Only the animation is fairly cool.
2.) You always get to know what a kitten he’d be, but in the end, he got shot down by simple cannons and nothing else. As the whole story progresses towards Orr and Zhaitan, it is a bad joke.
3.) You always get informations about him, and most of the story is by far harder than the Boss himself. Meaning he is a sore loser commanding a lot of kitten undeads that are sometimes brutal. But in fact, even the temples of Orr that are before Arah, are by far harder than Zhaitan. Every Champ in the starter areas is by far harder than Zhaitan lol.
4.) And at least, what is said about HIM really? Just a dragon that wakes up, raises some undeads and needs to be killed. Wow, gr8. And about anything else I mean…? In GW1, we had the Lich, we had Shiro, we had Abaddon and we had at last the great destroyer and all of them were kittenes themselves with really unique histories. What is it here, really?

You understand the point I am trying to show? It is about the whole conception of character that is so much flawed here in GW2, especially for the end content. It is more like some kind of Arcade-Game, showing that this and that boss needs to be killed. In fact, the start of the story was by far more interesting than the end of the story. All those characters of the different orders, even the dungeon stories, everything was more interesting than Trahearne or Zhaitan would ever be.

Both of them lack the kitten, it is not really believable that they’d command such armies as they do. In fact, you are most likely more interested in the story missions before Zhaitan than in the story mission with Zhaitan himself. It is the same fail as with Trahearne, and therefore the same mistake that is shown through the whole story.

Not only that, the dragon is so vulnerable its supply systems are simple undead. Which he can recreate.

Seriously, was this guy a menace? Charrs should be MUCH more afraid of Ascalonian Ghosts.

trahearne is the absolute biggest wet towel/kitten/useless POS main character in any game iv ever played. he is simply written to be as utterly boring and useless as possible. every decision he makes (that you cant make for him) is ether utterly kittened or seriously flawed. and every time you decide for him he steals all the glory in a upper class snobby (i want to punch trahearne in the mouth every time he opens his stupid gob) sort of way…

in combat he’s worse than useless, iv found more than once that its actualy easier/quicker to let him die so i can properly aoe stuff and then res him after. than have him “try” and help. he’s more squishy than a player in a full glass cannon build yet does less damage than a player in a full bunker build…

2ldr

trahearne is worse than useless…

if it was up to me. after the last current story mission is complete. there would be a mission where you kidnap trahearne and lock him in a dungeon, so that when ever the player feels frustrated with anything in game or irl they can go punch him in his stupid tree hugging face… instant relaxation….

It is not that we all hate Trahearne even tho that is our words. It is that we never get to know his history. If we could get some insight as to how this bookworm has history with all the orders and build him into the early parts of the PS people would not have these feelings towards him.

Yes Anet did drop the ball with his introduction into our PS by not giving true insight into who the heck he is other then little snippets from our mentors of “Hey Trahearne long time no see, How goes the reading you shut in.”

This guys biggest mission in his life is to cleanse Orr of it’s plight and people (even most npc’s) have no clue who he is. He needed a more fore front role in the character stories.

Something like: He is the go to guy for info about everything and is reffered to on a constant basis for said knowledge. Also this would allow people to understand why he is not so charismatic and very obsessed about his personal wild hunt over even saving Tyria.

I don’t hate the guy I just feel I was left clueless as to who he was and how improtant his role truly is in the telling of the story. Let us know why he is a shut in book worm. Why he has the social skills of a gnat and what not. These are instrumental in laying the grounds for him taking over the pact later in the story line. Instead we get one to two missions and he is the savior and we are his over shadowed lackey.

I want to give my two cents on this topic.

Warning contains spoilers! Read at your own risk

There are a lot of mixed reviews and thoughts on Trahearne as a character, his role in the overall story, and what happens with him when he’s entering combat. Also, going into this know that if you still hate him at the end that’s for you worry about in your next play through. I am writing this as a counter argument to some of the people who have written arguments, fan stories, or done fan-art that completely bashes him as a character. You can still bash him. This is just one thought out of the many.

From what I’ve seen a lot of people think that Trahearne “stole” their story. While I do see why they think this, I am going to state, he doesn’t. How? While he does become leader of the Pact and some people had issues with this, think about what a game would be like if you became Pact leader. Can you seriously imagine how boring it would be to play as Trahearne? I think I wouldn’t have bought the game. That wouldn’t be a fun game. All it would be is planning and then going out only on a few of the missions to help out the commander who is the driving force behind moving the story forward. Trahearne is there as a guide to the player (commander). Now, if being his second in command really causes that much of an issue, then what did you want? I can see at some point here how his wyld hunt seems “all important,” but let’s back track a bit here. If Trahearne had never meet the player character, then he’d never have completed his wyld hunt…

Another issue someone had on him was that he was the leader of the Pact and was going out into the field. That is seemed rather childish to make this happen in the story line. Well, real examples here: leaders do go to the front in war! Sure the president does but there are times in our history (over all human history) where leaders will head to the front and be in battles. Then there is the fact that Trahearne is the only one who can do some of the cleansing rituals preformed or is the only one to really know enough about Orr’s history to be of use in that situation. He helps the understanding of the story and events of that take place throughout your journey through Orr to the cleansing of it.

Trahearne isn’t as random of a character as people may believe he is. If you’re paying attention he does have a reason for appearing when he does in your personal story if you’re not a sylvari character. He’s coming from Orr with a warning about the risen attacking. Random? No. It’s introduced during this part as well that he is held in high regard at least by the order the player character joined in their story.

Now, on the fact players didn’t like him because he was squeeshy. Well, I just completed another play through of the story on an ele and he died a whole three times because I was being an idiot and charged into the battle without thinking in which case all pact members including myself died. But most of the time he wasn’t taking damage at all because either I or an npc were taking all the agro. This might be a bug fix as well.

continues on reply

His personality. “He’s whiny” I beg your pardon, in what way? Sure the quote “This won’t end well” can sort of (stretching it there) come off as whiny, but it’s more something the writers would’ve or might’ve put in there to remind players of what Trahearne has been through. He did travel Orr for nearly twenty-five years on his own! He is bound to weary, if not a little uneasy, at entering battle. The Orr he was traveling isn’t nothing like the Orr we see in game, there were no outposts and no one else there besides him. There is also the fact people need to keep in mind, Trahearne, by nature, is a loner and is trying to get used to a situation he was thrown into by the player character and the Orders.

Last point: his position in game vs. yours in the storyline. When players look at some of the lines it can be shown that he did get more credit or is getting more credit than the player character, but most of it refers, not to his skill in battle but to his knowledge of the elder dragon and Orrian history. When it comes down to bare bone of the matter, you’re still going to be the major hero of the story. You lead the frontal assaults, you get the epic battles, you get face and kill an elder dragon. Trahearne gets to plan and cleanse a land with only sometimes tagging along when he’s needed. He doesn’t face an elder dragon (he has no weapon at that point would be sort of hard for him to do so as it is). Also if you look at the lore regarding the previous game for those of you coming in from Guild Wars 1, you’re character’s not even mentioned. It was the people around you in that game that got all the credit (completely different matter though). At least this time you’ll get a place in history as “the Commander.”

Now that I am said this, I would like to hear (or read) other thoughts on him. If you like him and why. And if you still hate him and why.

He’s Batman.

We’re Robin:

Also, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN0W2j-XWR8

Trahearne is just one of a series of adventuring characters that players dislike. The adventuring characters have their stories advanced by going into dungeons and fighting alongside player characters. On the face of it, this is good since the players see key moments in the story first hand as the characters develop. It isn’t just told to the players but shown through events. The problem is that the players recognize the story isn’t about them but about the adventuring characters (even though the Pact Commander does indeed get all the credit and all the rewards). The living story in particular advances a global story and global characters whilst the player starts with no history and leaves with no history, since all players have full access to all living story content (by design).

This isn’t just about Trahearne. It also affects Kiel, Destiny’s Edge and could soon affect Braham and Rox.

Since the first time I met this dude in game I hated him. So does my hubby. And frankly our entire guild >.> He is obnoxious, he doesn’t have a personality besides acting like he’s a big shot, while he never really does anything worthwhile.It’s like he let’s everybody work their bums off and takes all the credit. His voice is also annoying -.- I really wouldn’t mind a Living Story twist that gets this guy out of the game for good…

Im just contemplating, what do you guys think? Would Trahearne (and by extension the fact that the last PS instance is a dungeon) be more tolerable if the Herald guy who sends you those letters about the dungeons as you level would be replaced by him sending those letters? Of course rewritten to fit him more, maybe fleshing out some personality? I think that could be a relatively cheap and efficient way to slowly introduce him before the bomb of Chlore Island is dropped on the PS.

Stooperdale.3560:

This isn’t just about Trahearne. It also affects Kiel, Destiny’s Edge and could soon affect Braham and Rox.

Nope.

Braham and Rox are presented very differently and have a very different attitude to the PCs (much more respectful and much more “I need your help!”-oriented). This is not a random thing, I suspect, ArenaNet are learning on the job.

As for the OP, it’s fine to like Trahearne, but you can’t argue people into liking him, and really everything he tries to claim as “objective truth” is merely poorly argued personal opinion on this part.

To the OP I say this: it is NOT a meme or a random event that the vast majority of players dislike or even hate Trahearne. This not just some accident or illusion. It is because of how Trahearne is presented, compared to the rest of the story.

We are told that this is our PERSONAL story. Up until Trahearne arrives, that appears to be true. Mentors and friends come and go, we remain, and we make the decisions, by and large. Post-Trahearne, we suddenly stop really making decisions except from amongst options he provides, and we keep coming back to him.

Every big event stars HIM, with the PC secondary or not starred at all. It is very much as if we are Robin, and he is Batman.

If they ever intended to progress the personal story (and I guess they do not), they need to retire or kill off Trahearne, and have the PC clearly “surpass” him. If they had not called it your personal story, not said it was about you, not made you the absolute star for levels 1-30 of it, this would not be an issue. But they did, and it is!

The OP also needs to face fact and accept that, however much he loves Trahearne, other people’s dislike of him is every bit as valid and honest as that. Trahearne is a “cold fish” – unemotional, humourless, without much in the way of wit or charm, and who is obsessed with his mission. Some minority of people like that kind of thing – but it is not common.

I think in general that he simply is too bland. Which is actually well done and the OP raises (or reminds me personally) a few good points.

Perhaps it’s simply that he does not stand a chance after meeting Warmaster Forgal Kernsson. He (Forgal) doesn’t treat me anything special but you sort of want to prove yourself to him. Is it a very complex character? I don’t think so, pretty straight forward. Which is why you can “trust” him.

If someone spends 25 years behind enemy lines I expect him to be a battle hardened veteran and act like one. With Traherne I’m more on edge, he could have gone nuts, right? How do I know he still has it in him? He talks like in trance, you almost expect him to betray you at some point because zhaitan had already turned him.

Well ok, going a bit overboard here perhaps, this is just meant for illustration.

At the end of the day Traherne just did not pique my interest. On the other hand I did not feel like he was stealing my show either, I was adequately celebrated. Perhaps too real having to listen to boring speeches.

Rouven.7409:

If someone spends 25 years behind enemy lines I expect him to be a battle hardened veteran and act like one. With Traherne I’m more on edge, he could have gone nuts, right? How do I know he still has it in him? He talks like in trance, you almost expect him to betray you at some point because zhaitan had already turned him.

This is part of the problem with Trahearne. He’s a classic archetype – the Keeper of Forgotten Lore, the Man who Knows What is Not Meant to be Known, and so on, but instead of having issues because of that, or being tempted to do dangerous/risky/evil things, Trahearne is as calm and collected as can be, in all situations, under all circumstances (to the point where it actually becomes suspicious, as noted).

Indeed, I think this comes up a couple of times, and he basically blandly tells us that he is automatically immune to all that because he is a Sylvari (okay, fair enough, I guess, but not very interesting) and that indeed even his pets/powers can’t be influenced by Zhaitan because they were “never alive” (ORLY?!).

So he is a completely calm, boring guy, who has no real past, because he was just locked in a room with books and no people (as far as we know), no loves or hates, no personal attachments or dislikes or the like, no weaknesses (because being calm, without attachments and a Sylvari eliminate all potential there), plenty of strengths, but all boring ones (he knows everything and is super-necromancer), and worst of all, no strong beliefs that he ever talks about beyond “beat Zhaitan” (he doesn’t even talk about Sylvari beliefs/ideals much).

Trahearne doesn’t just steal the spotlight. He replaces legitimately interesting characters (Sieran, Tybalt) as the main companion.

He also:

1. Gets immediately pinned down by a net when a fight starts and orders everybody to “RALLY TO ME” while lying on his back.
2. Runs slower than molasses uphill.
3. Asks for my opinion and then doesn’t let me talk.

I felt like in the personal story that trahearne was taking all my glory- so now I know what it feels like to be the main character playing a co-stars role.
Atleast he will revive you I guess….

grr they merged my topic >:(

I don’t hate Trahearne as a character, even if he is an incredibly boring character with no real personality or character development, what I hate is how he is used as an unnecessary plot device by writers with very heavy hands.

If you think about it, Trahearne actually serves no purpose within the story. His knowledge of Orr couldn’t possibly be useful to stopping Zhaitain because Zhaitann is so completely different from Orr (Zhaitan being a dragon who predates Orr and Orr being created through the ritual of some humans who used to live there). His quest to cleanse Orr isn’t even that important in the larger scheme of things. Your purpose is killing Zhaitain, you don’t really care about what happens to Orr either way because except for the fact that Zhaitain decided to use it as a place to mobilize his forces it really, the normal undead who were living there weren’t really bothering anyone. And even if you think his knowledge or Orr was important, you must concede that his knowledge of Orr was completely irrelevent in regards to killing Zhaitain as you didn’t use some cool magic ritual to kill Zhaitain. No, you shoot Zhaitain in the face with a cannon for like 5 minutes. We could have killed off Zhaitain within the first 2 minutes of creating our characters considering that anyone could have gotten on these ships, flown them to Orr and shot Zhaitain in the face with the cannons. There was no purpose in creating the Pact, no purpose in marching all the way to Orr, no purpose in helping Trahearne cleanse Orr, no purpose to any of it. Worse, there is no attempt made to make the player actually believe that Trahearne holds special knowledge or is unusually talented or gifted. All the player’s saying how they owe or love Trahearne when the player themselves never experience a single moment which makes them feel the same only leads the player to suspect that they are being duped.

The last quest completely nullifies every single part of the story that came before it because it is focused on a group of characters who come out of nowhere with no reason for being where you find them, in a location that your character has no reason for being in especially when your character was supposed to be boarding a different airship with the rest of the Pact (and all members of the Pact and all their airships are completely missing from the last quest), becomes focused on a ship that one of those characters pulls out of his bleeping kitten after he should have been killed but was saved via a plot hole, has you shooting a boss who decides half way into the fight to just give up and sit on a pillar out in the open so that the players’ characters can take their sweet time shooting him with cannons.

And to top the amazingly terrible last quest off, there’s a good chance your character won’t even be the one doing the talking which only makes your presence in this last quest that much more unnecessary. Had your character decided to become a farmer when they were level 1 instead of going off on an adventure the world would have been just as well off. And that is the worst insult. Using Destiny’s Edge and airships to kill Zhaitain was the worst possible choice the writers could have made, and that’s what they went with!

I also refute the assertion that the player character can’t be the star of the chain of personal instances quests in a MMO. From the player’s perspective they are the only character who is performing and taking the actions they are taking. Especially because the story the player experiences clearly isn’t actually taking place outside the personally instanced story areas of which they are the sole participant. Sure only one person can be dealt the Ace of Hearts, but when you’re the only person playing the game you’re the only one who could be dealt the Ace of Hearts.

And for the fact that Trahearne’s position seems boring, I would point out that in most fantasy novels, it is the people who are at the top of the chain of command who are the ones who go out and have grand adventures. This is especially true for Kings, Princes, Lords, Ladies, High Priestesses, Grand Wizards and the like. Even if you don’t accept that, you will have to accept that as second in command your character should already be performing all the same, if not more, boring tasks that Trahearne has to handle. In fact as second in command you’ve probably also be in charge of the more mundane clerical work.

I actually enjoy Trahearne’s voice acting. Although it’s deadpan, I think Matthew Brenher has a very interesting voice.

However, I agree with many other posters that his character feels like some fanfiction writer won a secret contest, and got their character incorporated into the game. There just isn’t enough information given about his personality for me to really like him.

For one thing, he doesn’t seem to have any emotions, ever—and I don’t just mean with vocal nuance. He didn't seem to have one kitten to give after Tybalt died, and essentially blew off his death with "Yep, sorry about that." Meanwhile, I was emotionally devastated, and I had evidently known Tybalt much more briefly than Trahearne had.

There’s a lot of personality facets that we get with more fun, likeable characters, but not Trahearne. What does he want in life (outside of his Wyld Hunt)? What excites him? What’s his sense of humor like? Does he have any regrets or prejudices (towards Asura perhaps, after what happened to Malomedies)? Has he ever done anything stupid? Does he have any funny Sylvari stories? What does he do with himself when he isn’t worrying about Risen and Zhaitan? Does he have any hobbies, like tap dancing or playing drunk checkers? Has he ever fallen in love?

TL;DR Trahearne is a flat character. People will like him more if he’s given an engaging personality, or at least an interesting history.

Also, I hope that the 3 unrevealed Firstborn don’t follow Trahearne’s unfortunate precedent.

“Oh, hello. I’m an NPC you’ve never met before and I have no personality, but you suddenly need me. Why? Because my Wyld Hunt is about this thing you need to kill/find/do, of course. Isn’t that amazingly convenient? But anyways, I’m the new main character until this part of the Living Story is shelved. The backseat is thataway.”

Can we arrange Trahearne’s death by Scarlet?

I think the point that a lot of the Trahearne supporters are trying to hit on is how we think we should be the grand hero in all of this, and we should be crowned King of Tyria. I may not speak for everyone else but im glad im not, im happy to be another cog in the wheel of the machine that saves the world. I never cared for MMOs that makes it out that you’re the only person ever that can do what the other tens of thousands of players are doing, that just dumb. The problem (for me anyways) isn’t that this boring cabbage man is stealing my glory, its that he’s stealing my story. While I may not be the savior of the entire friggen world, I am the main character in the main story, which is MY story. Or at least it was. It was a joy watching the choices I made having an impact on the story, and I was thrilled at the prospect of making a new character to see how and where the other branches would lead me. Then Cabbage Man shows up and now my story is about as fun as watching an episode of Antique Roadshow, because I feel that my choices have no real purpose. We all hit the wall, and that wall was named Trahearne.

Exosferatu.2961:

Can we arrange Trahearne’s death by Scarlet?

Heck no, I mean..I hope not lol

PapaBear.5249:

I think the point that a lot of the Trahearne supporters are trying to hit on is how we think we should be the grand hero in all of this, and we should be crowned King of Tyria. I may not speak for everyone else but im glad im not, im happy to be another cog in the wheel of the machine that saves the world. I never cared for MMOs that makes it out that you’re the only person ever that can do what the other tens of thousands of players are doing, that just dumb. The problem (for me anyways) isn’t that this boring cabbage man is stealing my glory, its that he’s stealing my story. While I may not be the savior of the entire friggen world, I am the main character in the main story, which is MY story. Or at least it was. It was a joy watching the choices I made having an impact on the story, and I was thrilled at the prospect of making a new character to see how and where the other branches would lead me. Then Cabbage Man shows up and now my story is about as fun as watching an episode of Antique Roadshow, because I feel that my choices have no real purpose. We all hit the wall, and that wall was named Trahearne.

Your choices still affect how Trahearne responds and what course the Pact take. Without you the story would go one linear path, there are several ways to affect the story after you are made Commander.

Imagi.4561:

I actually enjoy Trahearne’s voice acting. Although it’s deadpan, I think Matthew Brenher has a very interesting voice.

TL;DR Trahearne is a flat character. People will like him more if he’s given an engaging personality, or at least an interesting history.

I agree, I hope they flesh him out more in the next personal story.

reapex.8546:

Your choices still affect how Trahearne responds and what course the Pact take. Without you the story would go one linear path, there are several ways to affect the story after you are made Commander.

TBH the choices (to me anyways) don’t really seem to have much impact on anything after Trahearne. They mostly boil down to do you want to do A or B, do you want to kill A or B, or should we go to A or B. Compared to what came before they fall short. It seems that from the start the choices were many and varied, and I enjoyed making them. Then came Cabbage Head, and with him his liner paths of Bleh.

reapex.8546:

Your choices still affect how Trahearne responds and what course the Pact take. Without you the story would go one linear path, there are several ways to affect the story after you are made Commander.

Not in any meaningful way. The story is effectively completely linear. All you are doing once the Pact is formed is deciding what scenes to “get in on”, essentially.

It’s really bizarre. Even the “end” of your personal story is essentially about Trahearne, not about you. Which is really the precise opposite of all four GW1 campaigns (I note all the GW1 campaigns gave you a really solid, last-forever-type reward, too, where this personal story just gives you a yellow with a so-so skin).

I’ll just leave this here

PapaBear.5249:

I think the point that a lot of the Trahearne supporters are trying to hit on is how we think we should be the grand hero in all of this, and we should be crowned King of Tyria. I may not speak for everyone else but im glad im not, im happy to be another cog in the wheel of the machine that saves the world. I never cared for MMOs that makes it out that you’re the only person ever that can do what the other tens of thousands of players are doing, that just dumb.

This is one of the most easily counterable arguments in the world.

Your argument is that I can’t be the hero of a story which from my perspective I am the only one acting in because other player’s who are the only actors in their stories , which is the same story I am now reenacting without their presence, before me. I already showed why your logic doesn’t work.

While it is true that if this story were real there is only 1 dragon that could be slain, however from there is a problem. Each person who does the quest slays the dragon and from that player’s perspective they are the only one who not only slays that dragon but is the only person who could have possibly slain that dragon, all the other people who are taking on the same quest and all the dragons laying devastation to the land are outside the perception and interaction of the player and effectively do not exist for the player. The only thing that matters is how the single player interacts with the game world, and not how the 10,000 other people interact with the game world.

When the player is given the quest, when they perform and complete the quest the player is told that this is the only dragon laying waste to the land, that they are the only person who can slay the dragon and save the land, etc. It doesn’t matter that the same NPC gives the same quest to each of the 10k players, what matters is how the quest itself is structured and how it makes the player feel. Also relevant is what the player sees and experiences when performing this quest. In the MMOs of the past, it wasn’t feasible to make seperate instanced zones for players to play out the quest in so every person who wished to finish that quest would have to get inline to wait their turn to kill that specific dragon when it respawned. Where was no doubt in the player’s mind that not only was their involvement in the world unnecessary but also that the threat itself wasn’t really a big deal since there was this huge mob of people who were already in place to stop any threat the moment it appeared. But that wasn’t by design, those quest creators didn’t make quests for the purpose of making the player feel unnecessary or unimportant. Any feelings of that type that the player had were against the wishes of the quest designer and caused solely by technical limitations that prevented the quest designer from being able to fully realize the quest and storyline that they wanted the player to experience.

Only now that MMO designers are able to create individual instances for players to experience a quest by themselves are quest designers able to implement the quest as they meant it to be experienced. That is the quest designer really does want the player to feel like the hero, like the only person who could possibly slay the dragon and save the land from this dragon which is definitely laying waste to the countryside because there aren’t a mob of people waiting to kill it the instant it spawns. And they are able to do this by giving the player a personal instance where they are the only actor. We have seen these sorts of quests in WoW (beginning with WotLK and much more heavily in Cataclysm), in KOTOR where according to the writers the player really is the hero of the story and is the only hero of the story which in the case of the Jedi character is supposed to make the player feel like their character is Luke Skywalker or Anakin, and even in GW 2. If you follow the actual storyline of the GW2 quest, you will see that the player really is meant to feel like the hero, is meant to perceive themselves as the hero and that this was all the intention of the various quest designers.

Continued from above:

The problem with GW 2 where I think a lot of people are getting hung up is because in GW 2 there is a lot of discontinuity between the seperate arcs, whereas the player goes from essentially nobody to the hero that saves the day in each seperate arc/chapter. In the first arc you go from a low level nobody to a local hero. In the second arc you go from a local hero who nobody knows about because they aren’t a member of your community (but they do know that you are considered a hero within your community) to the hero that saves a broader community and becomes the hero of a nation or much broader community, specifically the citizens of the areas surrounding Lions Gate because your character themselves and not any other player’s character saves all those citizens. In the third arc every single character including your own has amnesia and completely forgets that you are a national hero and so you start off as fresh meat within one of the 3 organizations where you work your up to being both savior and hero of that organization to once again being the savior and hero of the Lion’s Gate nation. That’s right, your character by themselves because the hero of an entire nation and they are meant to think they are the only hero.

In the 4th arc everyone once again has amnesia and forgets how you just saved the day and so they decide to appoint Trahearne as the general for no other reason than because he happened to be there and they thought it was Trahearne who had saved the day instead of your character. Trahearne however actually remembers that it was your character who saved the day so he appoints you as his second in command which gives you nearly as much power as Trahearne wields and prompts the exact same conflict of issues problems that would have been prompted were you appointed the de facto leader of the Pact (but the writers seem to completety ignore this plot hole). Once you are made second in command you and Trahearne go on a quest together where you learn about how it is you and Trahearne’s special destinies to save the world from the evil dragon Zhaitain. Yep, not you and the 10,000 other players, but you and Trahearne. Thus the story itself completely refutes the argument that the player is not and should not be made to consider themselves the only person who could and does save the day and it does this for 80 levels of story telling.

The only time the story deviates from this route is during the last quest which is so antithetical to the design, pace, storyboarding, etc. of every prior storyline quest that it cannot be considered exemplary or indicative of the ideology that the story was designed around.

Eurhetemec.9052:

reapex.8546:

Your choices still affect how Trahearne responds and what course the Pact take. Without you the story would go one linear path, there are several ways to affect the story after you are made Commander.

Not in any meaningful way. The story is effectively completely linear. All you are doing once the Pact is formed is deciding what scenes to “get in on”, essentially.

It’s really bizarre. Even the “end” of your personal story is essentially about Trahearne, not about you. Which is really the precise opposite of all four GW1 campaigns (I note all the GW1 campaigns gave you a really solid, last-forever-type reward, too, where this personal story just gives you a yellow with a so-so skin).

No, it’s every bit as much about you. In fact, Trahearne can speak in his own defense.

“Here, at the end, I am glad that it’s just you and me. We will cleanse Orr together-as were meant to do.”

It’s you AND Trahearne. He does the cleansing, but he can’t do it without you protecting him. Further, that’s not the end of the story. There’s one more personal mission, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Trahearne. You may have forgotten about that one, cus the ending does suck, but it does exist and it has nothing to do with Trahearne.