Guild Wars 2

First of all, let me say that splitting skills for PvP and PvE, is neither the easiest nor the best sollution, and below I will provide an alternative that does not cause its kind of side effects.
Secondly, this also addresses numerous issues with current PvE content, regarding both challenge and fun.

TL;DR

Balance PCs for PvP.
Balance PvE for PvP-balanced-PCs.

It is pretty obvious that balancing skills for both PvP and PvE is impractical for various reasons.
This is only true, because the differences between the 2 game modes make you use different tactics and thus value skill effects differently.

Before balancing PvP vs PvE, it is necessary to establish the fundamental differences between them.
Why do you use different tactics?
The fact an AI will never act like a player because it can’t think like a player is not the main reason, because if that was the case, you could say NPCs are like easy-mode PvP – but you can’t.
The real reason is simpler than that – players can do things NPCs cannot and vice-versa.

Let me reiterate – to make PvE similar to PvP, you do not need to make NPCs act like players.
You just them to make use of the same mechanics, instead of resorting to huge health pools, insane damage spikes, immunities and insane control abilities (3 second knockdowns, 6 second fears)

[Differences PvE enemies have from PvP]

1. Survival based mostly on Health pool size
2. Few skills (2-3)
3. Mostly telegraphed skills
4. Nearly inexistant defensive skills
5. Nearly inexistant Healing or condition removal
6. Nearly inexistant boon removal
7. Few punishing skills (retaliation, confusion)
8. Cannot attack while moving nor kite
9. Permanent or gradual Immunities

When speaking of bosses, all of these problems are amplified:
Monstrous health pools, and few, mostly damage-oriented skills, including a few telegraphed insta-down skills.

Players in PvE fight by spamming damage, with occasional dodge away -> heal/etc -> go back in.
Bosses are more of the same, sometimes in a more phased manner.

This is more than simply a problem between PvP and PvE – it is a problem within PvE itself, as seasoned players become bored with the simple PvE mechanics.

[Sollutions]

1. Lower enemy health (at least champion and bosses)
2. Give enemies more skills
3. Give enemies combos like breathe poison field then spit projectiles over the field
4. Give more enemies defensive skills (Evasion, Aegis, Protection, Blind, Daze, Stun)
5. Give more enemies Healing and Condition Removal, convert Conditions to Boons
6. Give more enemies Boon removal, convert Boons to Conditions
7. Give more enemies punishing skills (Confusion, Retaliation, projectile reflection, fire armor)
8. Allow enemies to use (some) skills while moving (even if at reduced speed)
9. Remove immunities from the game and add more interesting mechanics that reward player skill.
   - Replace immunity to certain conditions with effects triggered when affected by those conditions. Examples being Imps gaining Might few a few seconds when Burned, or Hylek gaining regeneration for a few seconds when Poisoned.
   - Unshakable no longer grants Defiance, and simply reduces the duration of certain conditions by 66%.
   - Certain skills used by Champions and Bosses grant them X stacks of Defiance, as a buffer against interruption.
   - Veterans are given the Hardy passive, a weaker version of Unshakable, reducing the duration of certain conditions by 33%.
10. Make some enemies able to spot you from far away and actually try to pre-empt you

Any and all of the above will:

• help make PvE more fun
• help players become better at the game
• make the game harder for bots
• allow ANet to improve the drop quality/quantity as enemies will be less facerolled
• make it alot easier to balance skills in a way that actually works for both PvE and PvP.

No thoughts on this?
Do you really think PvE is fine and just needs to have bigger numbers to be challenging?

I agree in open-world PvE something needs to be done, because at the moment it’s just a big zerg with only one or two things to look out for.

Nurvus.2891:

[Sollutions]

1. Lower enemy health (at least champion and bosses)
2. Give enemies more skills
3. Give enemies combos like breathe poison field then spit projectiles over the field
4. Give more enemies defensive skills (Evasion, Aegis, Protection, Blind, Daze, Stun)
5. Give more enemies Healing and Condition Removal, convert Conditions to Boons
6. Give more enemies Boon removal, convert Boons to Conditions
7. Give more enemies punishing skills (Confusion, Retaliation, projectile reflection, fire armor)
8. Allow enemies to use (some) skills while moving (even if at reduced speed)
9. Replace champion and boss immunities with “temporary” immunity skills, like Stability and whatnot.

Nice suggestions. Also:

*make certain enemies resistant and weak to different Combo fields, even maybe immune unless you use certain types of fields to remove the immunity:

E.G. Fire does a bit extra damage to Jormag, while Water and Ice Fields and Finishers heal and remove Vulnerability (reforming the Ice), and Poison / Lifestealing Fields and Finishers do nothing to the Undead.

This should make the players co-ordinate more, rather than just throwing whatever down.

*If an event is completed successfully numerous times, then they become even tougher (more health, additional mechanics, spawns ect)

For example, Champion Abomination at the end of the Plinx event. Defeat him, say 5 or 6 times, and then they send a different Abomination with armour that can only be removed by the cannons at the outpost place (Caer something), so you need to kite him and keep him there while the armour gets destroyed. He also has some Veterans helping that heal / buff ect.

Nurvus.2891:

No thoughts on this?
Do you really think PvE is fine and just needs to have bigger numbers to be challenging?

Depends on who you ask. Some players like tank and spank / don’t stand in fire battles with huge health pools on enemies, others like bosses with more dynamic movements with a certain amount of unpredictability, and there are those who like partying up and having real synergy like in GW1. Unfortunately, GW2 isn’t really any of these right now and cultivates a zerg mentality while trying to pick up pieces from all 3 (different but not mutually exclusive) playstyles.

I think GW2 actually has the potential to be something more, but right now it’s being held back by a relatively shallow combat system. Because the developers haven’t taken advantage of synergy, skill chains, combo fields and finishers, etc… the game has forced many classes to rely playstyles which are relatively simple to completely mundane (SB ranger, I’m looking at you) just to remain competitive.

What it really comes down to is overhauling the combat system to give it more depth, balancing it out as much as possible for PVP since it’s the game type which is hardest to control, then tweaking PVE to match the difficulty they feel fits best for their intended goals (which haven’t really even been stated).

@TheDaiBish

I’m not sure weaknesses is a good idea because it is contrary to the purpose of this suggestion – wich is not only to make PvE more interesting, wich weaknesses would not interfere with, but also to make PvP and PvE obey the same rules in a balanced manner.
Unless resistances are added to players, wich would create more issues balancing skills and professions, it’s not practical.

@lolnotacat
Lowering health is just a compensation for giving enemies defensive skills and healing.
The “effective health” should remain similar – I’m not suggesting the fights should be quicker. I’m only suggesting the nature of the fight itself to be more similar to PvP, where health doesn’t simply get grinded down, it goes up and down.

It is arguable whether players that are said to enjoy tank and spank / don’t stand in fire battles aren’t simply just used to it.
Because more challenge is only not more fun when there’s some problem in the middle.

Group synergy isn’t something I suggest breaking – on the contrary, the mentality of group synergy you get in PvP would cross over to PvE by making PvE fights more similar to PvP.

some people just want to play the game in pve how they want. not get skills changed every week because of imbalance in pvp so they have to buy new trait books and weapons and learn skills over again they just want a standard. and they want a reason for why the skill got nerfed and why it nerfed something else than it was suppose to. a system where they favor pvp over pve is bad therefor it would be better to split skills.
gw1 had it and everyone was satisfied with it. so instead of changing mob health pool every week they could just split skills lot less work for arenanet and a much better solution.

@tom

Then that means you agree with my suggestions.

Currently, changing a skill due to PvP causes problems in PvE and vice-versa.
I’m suggesting that PvE creatures/bosses gain enough skills and features so that fighting them is closer to PvP, and thus removing the need to constantly rebalance player skills.

@lolnotacat
I wasn’t criticizing you, was just answering to the points made in your post, whether they were your points or not.

I think you completely misunderstood my post, as it was only a response to the rhetorical question I quoted.

Nurvus.2891:

Lowering health is just a compensation for giving enemies defensive skills and healing.
The “effective health” should remain similar – I’m not suggesting the fights should be quicker.

I never advocated for any changes in health pools, up or down, as the game designers need to decide how to tune PVE in the way they feel is best.

Nurvus.2891:

I’m only suggesting the nature of the fight itself to be more similar to PvP, where health doesn’t simply get grinded down, it goes up and down.

An interesting concept, I dunno how successfully it could be tuned, or if that’s something they’d even want to do.

Nurvus.2891:

It is arguable whether players that are said to enjoy tank and spank / don’t stand in fire battles aren’t simply just used to it.
Because more challenge is only not more fun when there’s some problem in the middle.

Of course there’s something to be said for familiarity, but challenge and fun are subjective concepts which you seem to be trying to pin down based on your preferences.

Nurvus.2891:

Group synergy isn’t something I suggest breaking – on the contrary, the mentality of group synergy you get in PvP would cross over to PvE by making PvE fights more similar to PvP.

I never said you wanted to break group synergy — which makes me think you didn’t read my post. I was stating that there was little real synergy to begin with, at the individual and group levels. Because of this, combat seems shallow and mundane.

As I said before you deleted your post/reposted:
I wasn’t criticizing you, was just answering to the points made in your post, whether they were your points or not.

Regarding challenge and fun, they are subjective indeed, but I like to think the fun you get from a challenge, have to do with what is required of you, and what you get as a reward.
When tank & spank is more fun than dynamic combat, it usually has something to do with how good or bad the reward is comparing to the “extra” effort being required of you.

As an example, simply increasing the health of an enemy is NEVER more fun.

Instead, adding a defensive skill may or not be more fun, depending on how it changes the way you feel about the effort and the reward.

Adding a defensive skill but lowering health, is – in my opinion – only less fun, if it makes the fight not worth the effort.

You’re basing your entire approach on your own opinion. You don’t want the split so you look for ways to support your argument. You want to change the entire PvE game rather than split skills.

Sorry. Splitting skills is the smartest way to overcome the problem of PvP/PvE being adversely affected by balance changes necessitated by the other. Why is it smarter? Because it draws the line and makes a clear distinction. <- PvE that way / PvP that way →

You want to turn PvE into a PvP simulation? Good luck. Give the enemies a player skillbar and then what… expect the AI to know when not to use a skill, the way a player would? To make critical decisions based on when to use their condition removal? If you like PvP, awesome. I hope they split the skills so when some stupid possibility/combination is discovered in PvE, your gameplay won’t be affected. Or do you like PvE but want to feel like you’re PvP worthy without finding out? Sorry, I don’t know what to tell you in that case.

Your proposal is to radically change the whole PvE design and force every other player of this game to make radical adjustments in how they play. Whether they want to or not. You propose this over the idea of simply splitting skills. If a player can’t remember “I’m in PvP, this is how Chaos Storm [random example] behaves”, I don’t think making PvE more like PvP is going to help them at all.

Sorry, but as a player who enjoys PvE but also enjoys finding ways for everyone to enjoy the game, then I have to suggest that making a PvE/PvP split is better than your proposed idea.

Ofcourse it’s what I think should be done to the game. It’s my opinion.
I don’t pretend my opinion is everybody’s opinion.

You think splitting PvE and PvP skills is is the smartest way.
You don’t mind the gameplay issues it brings.
See what I did there?

I don’t want to turn PvE into a PvP simulation. But I don’t want PvP and PvE to feel like two different games either – I want my character to be one, not two in one.

I want PvE to be what ANet said it would be: Dynamic, alive, nothing like the conventional tank & spank MMOs.

Is any of my suggested Sollutions a bad thing for this game? If so, why?
I don’t suggest things that don’t exist in the game, so it’s nothing radical.

• Why don’t you remove boons from NPCs? Or rarely.
• Why don’t they heal or remove their conditions? Or rarely.
• Why don’t they move while attacking?
• Why don’t they kite you? Why don’t they backpeddal or strafe?
• Why do creatures barely use defensive skills, and when they do it’s usually damaging at the same time and/or very obvious?

The way you dismiss any validity to my suggestion without an explanation and focus on a subject I stated this thread was not meant to discuss makes it feel like you are arguing against my thread just for the sake of defending the splitting of skills.

My suggestion fixes 3 problems in 1 go.

1. It makes PvE more interesting by making it less about nuking huge health pools and more about making use of all the skills in the game at the right time.
2. It makes skills easier to balance, since they will be as attractive in PvP as in PvE.
3. It makes it unnecessary to split skills into PvE and PvP versions.

Yes, I identify splitting of skills as a problem.

And don’t be sorry for something you believe in.

arjeidi.2690:

Your proposal is to radically change the whole PvE design and force every other player of this game to make radical adjustments in how they play. Whether they want to or not. You propose this over the idea of simply splitting skills. If a player can’t remember “I’m in PvP, this is how Chaos Storm [random example] behaves”, I don’t think making PvE more like PvP is going to help them at all.

I find this particular part of your post interesting.

Players already know how skills work right now.
Players already know how PvP and PvE feels.

My suggestion is making PvE feel more like PvP – something they already know.
Your suggestion is making either PvP or PvE more distinct, and force them to learn 2 versions for every single skill.

I’ll use your own words:
Splitting skills will actually radically change either the whole PvE or PvP design and force every other player of this game to make radical adjustments in how they play. Whether they want to or not. You propose this over the idea of simply making PvE similar to PvP. If a player can’t adapt to playing PvE in the same fun, dynamic way they play PvP, I don’t think splitting skills for PvE and PvP is going to help them at all.

I quite like this idea. Can I ask if the following sum-up is accurate?

Balance PCs for PvP. Balance PvE for PvP-balanced-PCs. ANet seems to only currently be doing the first half, so it would be good if they could also do the second half.

Is that about right?

Illiander.8049:

I quite like this idea. Can I ask if the following sum-up is accurate?

Balance PCs for PvP. Balance PvE for PvP-balanced-PCs. ANet seems to only currently be doing the first half, so it would be good if they could also do the second half.

Is that about right?

Yes, pretty much it.

Essentially just give the NPCs the same tools as PCs and replace the NPC-only stuff (like immunities) with skills that give temporary immunities (like stability, etc).

Anet already has a place where this exists, i.e. the test professions in the Mists. I wouldn’t mind seeing this at all in PvE.

In GW1 and 2 Anet give the player a suggestion build right when they jump into pvp. Making up 3 or so of those and applying them to mobs should be fairly straight-forward, and would make it somewhat closer to GW1, where most general mobs used skills and had builds that the players did or could have.

The AI issue has somewhat already been solved by those test profs in the Mists, as they play a bit more dynamic than normal pve mobs. You could even differentiate between “smart” and “animal” AI, allowing certain mobs to act in ways representative to their perceived intelligence etc. I’ve always wondered how well fighting those Mists mobs would translate to actual pvp, as I’ve yet to jump into that.

Nurvus, I completely agree.
The sparring NPCs in the Heart of the Mists further prove that the AI is there (except maybe kiting), most monsters in PVE are simply – intentionally or not – extremely lazily designed, with the mindset of a classical MMORPG behind.

I think you should reopen this thread, which unlike most suggestions here invites discussion, in the General section, because I get the impression ANet seldom actually considers the suggestions here, and it’s more of a designated landfill for the “we need mounts” garbage.

I think part of the problem is that a monster’s skill-set is entirely defined by it’s name. So the centaurs in Hrathi Hinterlands are exactly as difficult as the centaurs in the Human tutorial instance, after you account for stats. The only reason the Risen in Orr are harder than in Caladon Forest is because they introduced new types of Risen there.

Something that was wonderful back in GW:Beyond, was that they gave the monsters quality builds based off players, and the AI to use them.

One thing: Bots would probably go extinct as well.

ANet certainly have the tools to adjust the monster behavior.
The lesser monsters can be given “less quality builds”, while veterans can be given “high quality builds”, and bosses “ultimate builds”

But it’s not just about the skills themselves.
Giving monsters the below makes a tremendous impact:
- kiting
- strafing (moving towards you in a semi-circle to avoid some linear attack)
- backpeddaling (moving out of range if they calculate they’ll take too long to get to you)
- skill activation while moving (making it harder to kite them)

The goal is not making monsters fight like humans, because that’s not possible, or even if it was possible to make them fight very similarly, it’d probably strain the server too much.

The goal is making the monsters move and use skills similarly-enough to PvP, such that the player values and uses his own skills in the same way for PvE – thus making skills balanced for both aspects of the game.

Illiander, that is certainly one thing worth looking at, but I don’t see how that’s part of the PvP vs PvE problem.

In light of the announcement regarding changes to Dungeons, I think this topic has become more relevant.

In GW2, most creatures are just a health bar with 1 auto-attack and 1 telegraphed skill.
This doesn’t make the world feel rich.

I have adjusted the original post and added specifics regarding how to change Defiant and Unshakable boons that Bosses have.