Guild Wars 2

This is more of a brainstorm, but it’s something that’s been itching me for a while, specially considering what made Guild Wars 1 so awesome.

One of the things I love about GW1, is that leveling is essentially a tutorial, and over 75% of the game is played at max level.

Despite this, end game still feels like progression, because you hunt for skins, perfect equipment prefix/suffix, perfect insignias, runes, skills and achievements.

In GW2, leveling has a function more similar to the conventional MMO, such as WoW, and creates similar problems without adding anything meaningful.

Note: What I say below applies to the process of leveling. Does not apply to max level.
One of the biggest problems, is constantly outleveling your gear.
No matter how much effort you put into crafting or making money to buy a piece of equipment, you soon MUST replace it. This is detrimental to the feel of Effort vs Reward.
This happens because leveling makes you weaker.
Your Level is limited by each area’s individual effective level (ELv) cap.
Example:
- You are Lv60 with Lv48 gear (5:4 ratio)
- You are in an area that adjusts you to Lv40
- Your gear is thus adjusted to roughly Lv32

If you level up, you will now be Lv61 with Lv48 gear, but due to the Lv40 adjustment, your gear will now be closer to roughly Lv31.

So you don’t feel like you progress to Lv61.
Instead, your gear feels like it regressed to roughly Lv31.

Wich means leveling is bad throughout the whole game, until you finally hit 80. you only feel stronger when you upgrade your gear – not when you Level up.

Ofcourse, this is somewhat (but not completely) mitigated by the fact you gain Traits and new skills, but my point stands.

Leveling should make you feel STRONGER.
Not the same.
Certainly not weaker, EVER.

In Dungeons, the consequences are harshly felt.

[Suggestion]

• Get rid of the conventional concept of Level – No more Base Stat Growth
  You can have Level as a means to keep track of the number of Skill Points/Traits earned so far, but it’s unnecessary.
  Essentially, make the gameplay similar to Lv20 in GW1.
  - You gain Experience
  - Every X Experience you gain 1 Trait Point (up to 70) and 1 Skill Point
• Adjust the stat growth in Traits and Gear
  With no Level Requirement on gear, you can make gear grow in smaller jumps, and focus on:
  - Types of stats (Mighty->Strong->Knight)
  - Quality (Fine, Masterwork, Rare, etc)
  - Number of Upgrade Slots
• No more need for Downleveling
• Adjust numbers in the game to a spot that feels comfortable
  Instead of downgrading all numbers to Level 1, it could be down/upgraded to around 40 or 50
  - A max Traited, Skilled and Geared (Exotic) character should feel somewhere around 5 times stronger than a new character.

No thoughts about this at all?
I think it is a very significant issue with the game that can easily be solved.

The whole game is pretty easy overall. If you don’t replace your gear for many levels it can be a problem, but a simple trip to a karma vendor or the TP or something can quickly remedy that. As long as your gear isn’t more than about 10 levels outdated you are usually fine.

Also, it is very easy/quick to hit level 80 and get a set of exotic gear. That is equivalent to the level 20 in GW1.

It’s not equivalent, Svenn.

In any MMO, and even in GW1, you can stay in an area making up for whatever you did wrong, in case you somehow mess your leveling, or fail to gather enough materials.

If you have level 10 gear, you can stay in a level 10 area, no matter what level you are.
You can stop in an area and keep improving your gear until you’re ready to move on.

That is not the case in GW2, because of Downleveling.
If you decide to stay in an area – say level 20 area.
You have level 15 gear – that’s 5 levels below you.
If you level up to 21, the game will keep you at 20, and make your gear equivalent to level 14. So by staying in the same area, you’re actually weaker than before because you leveled.

This is simply poor design, all because they decided to keep the conventional leveling system and implement downleveling, rather than getting rid of Levels entirely.

Downleveling is a great concept in itself, but the exact way it is implemented is problematic.

What I’m suggesting is essentially what the game should have been from the start.
The ideology behind downleveling is the same behind removing the concept of Level.
ANet just stopped halfway :P

Except that in any area of the game you can find gear of your level. If you are level 80 and go back to a level 2 area you will find a mix of level 2 and level 80 gear. You can level from 1-80 in the same area and continuously upgrade your gear there. I spent most of level 1-60 in level 15-25 areas and I had no problem with it, and my gear was fine.

You don’t have to replace your gear as you level up. I ‘ve hit level 60 wearing level 16 shoulder pieces, and I didnt’ care about it.
I was using pieces I got from mobs as drops and had no problems at all.

I like the idea of staying in starter zone and level up till 8o and gear up from there and after that start the storyline and do it continuously without level req interruptions

Svenn.5209:

Except that in any area of the game you can find gear of your level. If you are level 80 and go back to a level 2 area you will find a mix of level 2 and level 80 gear.

You actually get lvl 76 gear doing starting zones at 80.

This whole thing is fairly moot though as a set of blue gear at any level is stupidly cheap on the TP and it’s really all you need to survive.

Short version, I agree whole heartedly.

I must admit I don’t know how the weapon/armor/equipment works relating to level adjusting. So I haven’t thought about how that impacts things yet.

Anyways, as game is with the heavy use of level-adjustment, you almost never play you actual level, and almost always the “right level”. So I don’t see any point with having actual levels either. You could just as well make everyone “effective” level 80 (in stats) from the get go, and change the current “levels” to just skillpoints and trait points as you pointed out.

I would have done it like this:

Since at level 80 all stats are 916 or so in base before modifiers, use this as stats from level 1 and never improve them from levels. (Or set them to 900 or 1000 for simpler math).

Levels give: the util slots, weapon changing and other profession abilities like normal, skill points, and trait points up to 70 total. Keep the shiny number on the screen, as I think 90% of players would go berserk if they didn’t see that.

Make all weapons/armor/equipment essentially equal to level 80 gear in stats. And thus remove level requirement.

This would require them to go over and adjust all enemies/areas etc to fit with the new power curve, but it shouldn’t be very hard or a whole lot of work. After all, most of it is just altering the basic stats over the templates. (They really also should add some more “grunts” to the mobs, so not 90% of the monsters takes time taking down).

You will still have progression: Traits, SkillPoints, and the usual unlocking etc. And ou still have stat tweaking through equipment and trait lines.

And it still means that higher “level” areas have harder enemies, as they to would have bonuses from trait stats and equipments (or the monster equalent stuff). So going in as a starting character into a harder zone will still make you feel weak, but not getting oneshotted repetedly. You will just feel that you lack the weapons/tools to take on things (util slots, trait stat bonuses, having refined your build more etc).

TL;DR: Love it Nurvus, agree 99%, with only a few small tweaks!

The one and only reason I can see for actually keeping levels “as is”, is because 99% of players in MMO games expect levels, and a whole lot of them see leveling as the main aspect of such games. (Which again is just why I to loved the GW1 system so much).

Personally, I’m against this.

The fact that you have gear tiers is, in my opinion, a good thing. For example, when I started, a friend of mine pretty much told me to just buy level appropriate gear from the TP every 5 levels or so. I did this for a while, until I got into crafting.

Once I got into crafting, I actually had to do more than just go from quest to quest: I started mining ore, chopping trees and picking herbs. I kept going back to the armorsmith and weaponsmith stations to make new gear whenever I was getting close or was already at the next tier of new gear. For me, the new gear kept me in the game. Leveling up to 50, 60, 65, 70 and 80 was all for the new gear. I had already decided on my utilities, which I haven’t changed much since the beginning. Similarly, I had been playing around with traits so there wasn’t much to expect in that regard either.

Also, I think you’re mistaking the point of the Effective Level. It isn’t there so that you’re forced to get better gear. It’s there so that you can progress at a pace that you like. Some like crafting, so they might completely out-level an area, say the 55-65 area, without ever being there. Others want to see the highest level area as soon as possible, resulting in ignoring the lower range areas for other races. And if you’re not planning to make an alt of every single race, that means missing out on pretty much 60% of the world. Both of these things happened to me: I got way too many levels from crafting my own weaponry and armors, so I had no real reason to stop at a certain 50-60 area at all, seeing that I had pretty much skipped that level range totally due to crafting. Similarly, by focusing on only the areas I was pointed to by the story, by the time I arrived at Cursed Shore, I had only 33% of the map complete, with the Asura, Norn, Sylvari and Charr areas mostly completely unexplored. And trust me, without level scaling, I could just blaze through those areas and I’d be forced to make an alt to get a fun experience out of it. And you never, ever, want to force people to make alts just so that they can get fun out of the game.

Effective Level also allows higher levels to educate lower levels without diminishing the experience due to being able to totally wtfpwn everything in their way. And that’s good, because a lot of games have an issue where lower levels get told to level up fast.

And I wonder, do you even realize that your suggestion is pretty much asking them to take most of the core mechanics of the game and re-invent them from scratch? That would be a ton of work.

“One of the biggest problems, is constantly outleveling your gear.”

In a game whereby items drop very readily from mobs whilst leveling and skins from “old” items that a player likes the look of can be re-used with any new items they get, one question has to be asked:

What exactly is so evil about out leveling your gear in a game where you can re-use the skins you like?

“Wich means leveling is bad throughout the whole game, until you finally hit 80.”

Why exactly is it so bad?

The only time when a player actually requires full use of all of the “levels” they have obtained is when they are progressing into higher level content (i.e. tougher content). And until that time, the fact that they are perpetually hitting a “ceiling limit” in a particular area is therefore irrelevant. They really don’t have a need for those extra stats (unless ofc they just wish to trivialise the content in lower level zones, which goes against the very design principles of this game).

To me, it just looks like the OP is substituting one grading scale (stats obtained through leveling) for another (stats gained from traits earned via level).

So, let’s say you completely remove the concept of leveling and have a “level playing field”, where the only difference is a players “trait build”. What you are talking about is changing the fundamental design of the game. Because progression through content is dependant on the players “potency” (a.k.a. the stats they gain from leveling and getting better gear). Such a change essentially removes a large portion of the concept of progression. And that is a VERY bad idea for an MMO. No / very little sense of progression means that everyone conceivably can do anything, at any time, without any restriction. And that is bad.

The fact is, the traditional game system of “leveling” works better in GW2 than it did in many MMO’s simply because of the de-leveling process. Theoretically allowing players of ANY level to get together and not actually end up trivialising content.

There has to be a pretty compelling argument to completely rewrite the entire game, and to be honest OP, you haven’t provided one. Whether a player likes the concept of “levels” or not, the system is working. And working pretty well.

TLDR: Progression simply means moving from one state to another. If you don’t want to out-level your gear, don’t progress into higher level zones. Stay wherever you are, and enjoy whatever gear you’re wearing. If you’re staying there, you really have no need for the benefits of higher levels anyhow.

And in doing that, you have your desired level-less system right there.

I don’t bother leveling my gear that often; seems like a lot of trouble and, so far, it doesn’t make that much of a difference to my enjoyment of the game. I replace stuff that breaks or if I find something with a matching level and/or better stats. (You can purchase almost any sort of white, blue, or green item on the TP for vendor price + 1c using a custom WTB offer — the longest it has taken me to pick up an item has been overnight.)

I don’t love spending weeks at less than Level 80, but I use it the way the OP described: as a tutorial. I spend 5-10 levels using one weapon set and then change up as I learn new slot skills or add traits. I don’t enjoy the L1-10 period at all, but after that, it’s a lot of fun learning a new class.

Would I have been happier with only 20 levels, the same as in GW1? Probably. But I’m finding a lot to enjoy about the current system, too.

I think it’s a valid, well-thought-out point to make. I would certainly try/buy such a game.

However…I don’t see how that could be applied to an already-released game. I would make this argument for games in the future, but how in the heck would you expect a dev team to make these kinds of drastic changes post-launch?? I like the ideas…but just don’t see how it’s relevant to this game at this time.

Obsidian.1328:

I think it’s a valid, well-thought-out point to make. I would certainly try/buy such a game.

However…I don’t see how that could be applied to an already-released game. I would make this argument for games in the future, but how in the heck would you expect a dev team to make these kinds of drastic changes post-launch?? I like the ideas…but just don’t see how it’s relevant to this game at this time.

Such level of drastic changes have been tried in the past, it seemed like such a good idea…on paper. And the fundamental changes ended up back firing.

What the OP is essentially asking for is a fundamental shift in the design of the game, from a level based system, to one whereby:

1) Players hit “max potency” pretty quickly, and thus players will hit a potency “ceiling limit” quicker than they do now. This is due to the intent of ensuring that players are within a similar “potency range”, and thus not end up trivialising content (after all, the proposal doesn’t cater for a the inclusion of a “de-leveling system”). Of course, this also means the entire progression system throughout the game would have to change too in accordance with the changes to the level system.

2) The proposal essentially just substitutes one grading scale (potency gained from stats, which in turn are gained from leveling) with another (potency gained from traits, which in turn are gained from leveling).

So, the game wouldn’t actually gain much from the proposed system, other than no longer being a level based system. So all that hard work into changing the leveling system and the entire progression system, would reap very little reward (and maybe a lot of back lash due to the extent of the changes).

Tarkaroshe.8370:

If you don’t want to out-level your gear, don’t progress into higher level zones. Stay wherever you are, and enjoy whatever gear you’re wearing. If you’re staying there, you really have no need for the benefits of higher levels anyhow.

And in doing that, you have your desired level-less system right there.

I underlined the part that shows you either don’t quite understand how downleveling works, or didn’t really bother reading what I wrote at all.

You can’t “stay wherever you are, enjoying the gear you’re wearing”.
You know why? Because you’ll level up, whether you want to or not.
If I am level 30, my gear is level 28, and I’m in an area level 20, here’s what will happen:
- My effective level will be 20
- My gear will be equivalent to roughly level 18 gear
If I level up, I will become 31. Here’s what will happen:
- My effective level will be 20
- My gear will be equivalent to roughly level 17 gear -> I became weaker.
You know why? Because the difference between my level and my gear increased, and that difference is kept when downleveling.

So what I’m saying, and you seem to be readily dismissing, is that, while progression is great (skills, tiers of gear (quality, etc), traits, and so forth), the notion of level itself is pointless in GW2, because of downleveling.

If you…
- have no level
- gain 1 skill point every X experience, up to 300 or something
- gain 1 trait point every X experience, up to 70
- have a smaller growth in gear power
- have base stats and gear stats adjusted to the current level 40 or 50 or 80… whatever

…you’ll lose nothing at all in terms of fun, and there will be absolutely no issues with “downleveling” whatsoever, because it won’t be necessary.
You could effectively stay in an area if you wanted.
Any player could go explore tougher areas without getting insta-gibbed due to level difference.
The game will finally be truly explorable.
You will finally be able to play wherever you want, with whomever you want.

Because let’s be honest, when you level up and get gear for your level, you “reset” the difficulty, and the new enemies are as hard to kill as the ones you were fighting a few levels ago (in weaker gear).

So why not instead make monsters actually become slightly tougher in tougher areas, and get rid of levels?

Maybe not in implementation, but I completely agree in theory.

Leveling is a chore, and the brief “Phew” it provides upon dinging a new one is completely abysmal compared to being locked out of the rest of the game.

So every 5-10 levels spend 2 silver on new blue gear from the TP. You are really blowing the gear downscaling out of proportion. It seems like the idea of “becoming weaker as you level” is really bothering you when it doesn’t matter at all in practice.

2 silver every 5-10 levels? That may be true for the first 20 levels.
But it’s still beside the point.
You should never weaken because you level up. It’s ridiculous. It’s purely bad design.
Downleveling was created to fix a problem generated by Level.
In turn, downleveling generated its own problems.
Getting rid of Level and Downlevel fixes everything and doesn’t really take anything away.
No one levels for the pleasure of seeing their health grow by 100.
And their base stat increase is NEVER felt, because of downleveling!
Levels in GW2 are only useful for traits, skill points, and determine when you get new stuff (skill slots, weapon swap, etc).
That’s it!

And this is not an issue I felt often while leveling.
I only started feeling it when I got into dungeons, and into higher level areas, and then became clearer on my third and fourth characters.

Alot of players in my guild and others I’ve played and chatted with shared their troubles with the game.

Not everyone follows a walkthrough or plays super conservatively – some like (and have fun) trying and dying and trying again.
Before they know it, they have repair bills that far outweight whatever they gained, and instead of earning currency, they lose it.

As I said, at level 80 all of this is moot.
I’m talking of the whole concept of exploration, playing where you like – both of those could be done alot better.

i’m not sure if i believe Nurvus on how downlevelling works between “effective level” and gear.

If it’s true i guess i’m such an /awesome/ player it doesn’t hurt me, which i doubt.

i am level 61. and i am actually wearing gear that ranges between level 40 .. and level 59. Or to be even more specific:

mask = level 59
shoulders = level 55
chest = level 57
gloves = level 49
pants = level 40
boots = level 48
short bow = level 46
long bow = level 45

…i am currently playing in Snowden Drifts which is level 15-25. Where i am in the area right now is causing my “effective level” to be level 23. Based on Nurvus’s theory, since my pants are /21/ levels minus my actual level (i’m level 61, they are level 40).. then while i am effective level 23, my pants are /still/ supposedly 21 levels below me. Which would make them (in Nurvus’s theory) effectively level 2 pants.

All my gear stats (while i am really level 61 ..in snowden drifts – with my current gear) would be:

mask = level 21
shoulders = level 17
chest = level 19
gloves = level 11
pants = level 2
boots = level 10
short bow = level 8
long bow = level 7

This seems very silly since i am completely /blazing/ through Snowden Drifts … in what is “super low level gear” according to Nurvus’s theory.

So either the theory Nurvus has presented is /not quite accurate/…. ooor… i am just a super awesome amazing player, apparently.

DinoDoll.3682:

So either the theory Nurvus has presented is /not quite accurate/…. ooor… i am just a super awesome amazing player, apparently.

He’s just blowing the effects out of proportion. Like I said, in practice is doesn’t really matter.

In my examples I said roughly.
I don’t think it’s a static “minus X” either.
I think it’s probably closer to a percentual adjustment.
So if you’re 20 with 15 gear, that’s 75% your level, so if you go to a lv8 area, your gear would be equivalent to lv6.

Regardless of how it is exactly, it’s still a bad design.
Though I agree it might take too much effort to fix something a couple days of leveling fix.
Whether they do something about it or not it won’t affect me much, nor for long.
This is mostly a brainstorm towards improving the overall feel of the game for all the potential new players out there.

Cheers.

The core of this discussion – for me – is how the moment you gain a level in an area where your level is being adjusted, automatically makes you weaker until you improve your gear.

Why does it make you weaker? Because the difference between your level and your gear level is taken into account when downleveling – probably in proportion.

So Lv20 gear worn by a Lv30 is probably be equivalent to Lv14 gear in a Lv21 area (2:3 ratio).

It’s not that I can’t advance – I did.
But in the gaps between updating my gear, I grew weaker instead of stronger, and that is just awful design.

Leveling is completely unnecessary in a game with Downleveling…

The game “The secret world” has a great system like this , their limitations are the amount of equip
They have item tiers , when even you “level” you get a rank with some points, the rank only shows your experience , nothing else
they had about 12tiers if im right , you started with tier 1-4 , you had to do dungeons to get to tier 5-6 and if lucky7 , once you got those you could give 7-8 a shot… this would completely change the game , in a good way in my opinion
and Anet is already using the same equipment skins over and over.. (the basic bow… at every level there are 5 different bows that use the same skin) same with armor..

And the level to strenght ratio? my stats were higher in WvW at level 10 than its now at 80 , except for weapon attack and condition damage , the more you advance in this game, the weaker you get if you get downleveled in certain areas (and 90% of the dungeons delevel you…) , At least adjust the monster level instead… and dont make them overkill

At lvl 35 I brought a set of gear, and use it to lvl 55 and then brought a new set and use that until lvl 80, and kept it until I got enough stuff to get the lvl 80 gear I wanted.

One thing you made a major mistake at is, GEAR NEVER scale, it does not scale down are up.

guessing you miss that fact when arenanet was explain how scaling works.

Buying new gear is essential to creating demand in the economy. As it is all gear except the best is at vendor price in the TP so I think it is silly to say getting new gear is a problem.

So I think the system of gear leveling is fine. It makes it necessary to upgrade. Anyway what kind of player wants to spend all his/her time in one zone? Not the majority.

Did you notice how you contradict yourself?
1 – You say that “Buying new gear is essential to creating demand in the economy.”, implying that by forcing players to constantly buy new gear, it benefits the economy.
2 – You state that all gear except the best is at vendor price in the TP.
(I’ll have to say that high level Rare gear is also above vendor price because it’s used in Mystic Forge, and so on).

But all that is beside the point.
I’m not complaining about wanting to upgrade the gear.
My suggestion doesn’t make upgrading gear less attractive.

I’m complaining that you should never EVER feel weaker when you level up, not even for 1 second.

When you level up, all your stats decrease, most noticeably your crit chance.
Why? Because your level and your gear is adjusted to keep their relative difference.
Since that difference increases, your gear will seem to have become weaker.

So there’s always this window bewteen leveling up and getting new gear, where you feel weaker.
And that is simply bad design.

There is absolutely nothing that Leveling brings to the game.
Nothing at all!

Downscaling should be separate for you and gear. When you are downscaled to the local maximum so should your gear. Looking at the difference makes no sense. When I am 80 running through a lvl30 zone with lvl40 gear. I should be 30 in 30 gear not practically naked, because my gear is still better than what the area originally asked for. It makes no sense!
As it is now, I watch myself getting weaker as I levelup and that can’t be the intended effect.

It even becomes a problem when I get downscaled in dungeons and am almost the weakest in the group with the highest lvl character just because they called me mid-levelling. That was kind of weird.

You got my vote, a player’s level should play a tad bit more of a significant role. Unfortunate feeling to always be part of the herd and not an individual.

Instead of doing something so drastic as wanting to have no leveling period, why not make a change to what we have currently? If the gear down scaling is making you weaker due to not being in at level gear, then why not suggest that down scaling gear always give you maximum stats for the down scaled level provided you are equipped with gear at or higher level then the zone? This wouldn’t break the game in any way because a level 80 in a level 10 zone would still be using the max stats a level 10 could possibly achieve. In my opinion, this feels like the most constructive way to attack your problem.

They have to balance it out at some point. My warrior had 100% crit chance until I was in the higher 20’s just because of a trait.

I’m not sure if any of you is familiar with Final Fantasy X, for PS2.
In that particular game, you gain experience, and each time you accumulate a certain amount of experience, you gain 1 SP, wich you can use to move in the Sphere Grid.
The Sphere Grid is comparable to GW2’s Trait system.

Even though you have experience and advancement, you have no concept of Level, as there is no need for such.
The same holds true for GW2.
If there was no level, but you still gained experience, skill points and traits, and unlocked various features along the way, you would lose no gameplay value.

But BowmasterSol.3457’s idea is good too.

I tend to agree with you that a game that does away with the whole increase level → get bigger numbers/gear → move on to next level zone would be great, but I doubt that it’s practical for GW2 at this point.

What I’d really love to see (even though it’s no more practical) is to have gear and crafting completely divorced from your ‘experience’ level. Why on earth can’t my level 5 character put a level 80 shirt on – what property does it have that requires life-changing wisdom or expertise just to differentiate the head holes from the arm holes? I’ve always found the concept behind the ‘gear grind’ bizarre.

If, on the other hand, some gear was practically out of reach because it was prohibitively expensive or difficult to craft, and it simply wasn’t worth the deterioration through wear and tear on a level 5 character who has no special need of it – then I think that makes much more sense. I’d also be so much more inclined to participate in the crafting and resulting economic game if it was more than a simple vertical grind of industrial production. Of course there are lots of bots – this system is perfect for that! In some ways it doesn’t offer much more than an exchange NPC, except that you have to do hundreds of unwanted exchanges before you get to the one you actually want.

The best thing crafting has at the moment is the legendary weapon goal at the end, but even then it seems very much based more on having enough commodities to exchange rather than any particular crafting choices or skill. What if you could grow your crafting ability in terms of opening up more choices in cosmetic appearance or the types and versatility of bonuses, rather than simply increasing the numbers the more you do it? What if I had to choose from a limited deck of possible improvements and ways to increase my chance of success or efficiency, similar to the deck of combat abilities? Maybe my tailor has accumulated enough different crafting abilities that means his crafted items are substantially different from your tailor who uses a completely different build?

Ahem. I got slightly off-topic there, but ah well, I can dream!

Personally, I think leveling needs to be removed completely… at least in the way games have it currently. Just have players play purely on skill.

They could still keep a bit of “gearing up” by having several types of armor (the traditional light, medium, and heavy for example) and maybe even diversify that by a bit by having a quality for the armor (basic, well-crafted, expertly crafted, etc.). The biggest difference in armor stats would be between the type of armor though; plate would have better defense, but would cause payers to move a bit slower (not attack speed, just movement oriented) maybe even taking a toll on the player by using more stamina or something for dodges, etc.; cloth would be light on defense, but would provide a slight bonus to movement and cost less stamina for certain actions. This kind of system would also allow players of any class to equip any type of gear they want too.

Similar thing with the weapons, but they would rely on quality.

Personally, I would still go light on the differences between gear (unless it really made sense in a logical way and not based on an illusion of progression).

Games should be based on skill though; positioning, aiming, judging distance and timing, etc.

Skills in my vision of how an MMO should be would be designed with more variability in mind; instead of aiming that three slash attack directly at your enemy, you could aim it just slightly off to the side and use it evasively to move around them while hitting them, effectively using it as a sort of dodge while also just keeping your opponent actively engaged and on their toes.

Things such as stuns and dazes would be bonuses for certain actions such as landing a powerful strike from behind an enemy, other conditions would be similar and be designed to be a bit difficult to actually land (pvp wise, PvE enemies are always too predictable anyways lol), but could turn the tide of a battle if done.

Why would you remove leveling? It’s the very concept that defines this game, infact any MMO. Leveling is part of gaining experience, not only in game but also the player him or herself.

Leveling provides knowledge to be learnt. It’s like a piece to an unfinished puzzle. You simple cannot continue without it. If no leveling were to occur, whats the point of calling this game an mmorpg. Seriously.

You are mistaking something here, YumCHA.

No one is suggesting to remove the concept of progression.

In MMOs, level doesn’t say much about your character.
It’s merely a time sink.

What really can speak about your character is the equipment quality, the skills, traits/talents, etc.

You can keep all of that, but remove that tiny useless number called Level.

I am not sure about the scenario presumed by the OP.

Perhaps just let my lvl 80 toon go naked, play in a lvl 1-15 area, and get back to you. My bet is there won’t be any issue.

OK. I removed all my gears from my level 80 toon. I went to the area where my effective levels are between lvl 59 and lvl 61. I still kill the mobs without any noticeable hindrance.

Oh, I forgot some skills are not even scaling with gears… Even a great part of damages scale with levels….

I believe if I am lvl 50 or lvl 55, I will not survive against lvl 60 mobs without at least some blue gears.

But with lvl 80, even downscaled to lvl 60, I still can beat lvl 60 mobs without any gear.

I understand many people may just try to hit lvl 80 asap if there exists such a leveling mechanism. But to me, I did take time progressing very slowly at my own pace because I wanted to appreciate the game content step by step. I knew I would not play a second char and repeat the same game content ever again. At least I don’t find leveling at any rate decreased the fun of the game for me.

In my opinion, the OP’s point is a complete non-issue (no disrespect intended). Getting adequate gear is stupidly simple. You absolutely do not need maxed gear to do anything well in this game. Frankly, the only reason you need max gear is to satisfy the elitists who won’t let anyone in their dungeon group who does not have max gear. But for the other 99% of people, it’s all good.

I enjoy the system as it is currently implemented, I would prefer that no changes be made. Just my opinion to throw into the mix.

gears have been made very irrelevant to whether you can enjoy the most part of the game content in this game, i believe.

The cash you get for drops more than pays for your armor, weapons, trait books etc. I don’t get why it is such a big deal.

Well I agree with the current system as a team to get acceptable apparatus face a range of levels is very easy and / or cheap and fast reaches the maximum level which is where teams are expensive.