Guild Wars 2

Simply put, level 80s are way too powerful in low level dynamic events because downscaling does not nerf their gear (or nerf it enough). As a level 80 going around exploring the rest of the world, it’s really boring to two-shot everything. And as a lowbie doing events, it’s really boring when some guy is just mowing all the enemies down single handedly. It’s not much different than traditional MMOs at that point, where max level characters can come in and massacre entire zones.

If a lowbie is being helped by higher leveled guildmates… It’s okay.. But at the same time I can see how this makes it difficult for other lowbies that wanna enjoy the game.

/supported

errr no.

down scaling is working as intended.

please do not fix what is not broken.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

errr no.

down scaling is working as intended.

please do not fix what is not broken.

Get level 80 gear. Go to level 5 area.

Tell me scaling is not broken.

Actually gear is scaled (though weapon damage I can’t be certain of whether it caps at the low damage point on them or not) as its the end numbers that are scaled. It appears that the scalling is roughly done on a percentage of your current level to your reduced level to your maximum value. (so if your level 80 reduced to level 40 your maximum stats will be roughly halved).

Of course because high level gear has higher and more stats on it as well as having more trait points in stats you will be somewhat ‘tougher’ than a character of the actual level.

However if your finding those areas trivial, use lower level gear, that will make your totals lower and thus less powerful when you are reduced in level.

The only problem with downscaling is:
- You have more Traits
- You have more Major Traits
- You are likely to have higher quality armor.

What I mean to say is, if you had exotic gear at level 5, you’d feel nearly as powerful as a level 80 downscaled to 5 on his exotic gear.
But instead, at level 5 you usually have a mix of Normal and Fine gear.
Only at about level 20 do you start using Masterwork gear.
Only at about level 30 do you start having access to Rare gear, mostly from Dungeons, but with some effort from crafting too.
Exotic comes into play much later.

Now let’s get something straight. As you level up, you are meant to become – and feel – stronger.
If all you earn with level (skill synergies, increased gear quality and traits) is “compensated” when you downlevel, then what’s the meaning of progress?

This is not the answer.

I’m more in favor of getting rid of the concept of level entirely and making gear quality provide smaller jumps in power.

I totally agree with the OP.

All I know is, when I take my level 80 back to lower-level areas, it’s too easy to be fun. I have to equip lower-level gear just so it stays challenging.

I thought ArenaNet said gear was exempt from any kind of scaling. If that’s true, I’d like gear to scale down, somewhat, so I’m not two-shotting everything I encounter, without having to change gear.

If gear DOES actually scale, as some people seem to be saying, can someone please point me to an explanation of the system? Because it does not seem to be working as intended.

Its still fun in low lvl areas when it scale everything in my opinion.

I agree. Nerf the gear when downscaling. Not doing so defeats the purpose of downscaling.

I think the biggest culprit is the extra stats on gear. If a level 80 in any 80 gear goes to a level 5 area, they still get two more stats per piece of gear than a level 5 would in the same area.

Simple fix would be to assign a hierarchy for each stat on a piece of gear. There’s already a primary stat, just need to set a secondary and tertiary stat. Then, when you go to an area where that level only has one stat, you only get the primary stat and the others are ignored. For two-stat zones, you get primary and secondary.

Weapon damage also needs to scale better. A level 80 elementalist with an exotic weapon will do roughly three times as much damage as a level 5 elementalist with a blue weapon. It’s a bit extreme.

If they do this then they should also increase the rewards for that area right now there is no reason why anyone would go farm in a lower level area when event rewards is marginal.

Warning: I am a numbers geek. I have invested more time researching this topic than any sane person should. If you wish to refute anything I claim, you had better have numbers to back it up. I’m not going to go into depth regarding the scaling mechanics as you should have already done that before starting this discussion—there are many threads on that topic already—I know because I’ve answered most of them. I will say that I deal in normalized stats—these numbers are universal for any effective level and provide the best point of comparison.

I will consider three levels. Level 1, Level 40, and Level 80. Progression follows a 2nd order polynomial curve, and there are some interesting disparities around level 40, so all other levels fall somewhere between these in terms of interest.

Baseline
At level 1 you have 24 to all stats as your base.
At level 40 you have 308 to all stats as your base.
At level 80 you have 916 to all stats as your base.

These are the values used to determine scaling.

Traits
At level 1 you have 0 points from traits (0 normalized).
At level 40 you have 600 points from traits (1.95 normalized).
At level 80 you have 1400 points from traits (1.53 normalized).

This shows that the impact of traits actually diminishes as players approach 80. At level 11, when you get your first traits, it is (20/68) about 0.29 normalized. Level 39 is actually the peak at 1.96.

So traits aren’t to blame for level 80s being overpowered in low level areas. The benefit of trait points actually diminishes as you level from 39 to 80. You do, of course, get major and minor traits, but we’ll look at those elsewhere.

Weapons
I haven’t looked at stat scaling on weapons, only armor, so it is possible there is massive inflation on weapons, but given the other scaling, I find this very unlikely.

Armor
A level 1 cannot wear full blues—the gear is simply not available.
A level 40 in full blues receives approximately 160 stat points (0.52 normalized).
A level 80 in full blues receives approximately 613 stat points (0.67 normalized).

There is a slight inflation in normalized stats from gear, however it is worth noting that the decrease in stats from traits is far more significant. Even allowing for exotic gear (32% over fine) this is only 0.88 normalized, an increase of 0.36 over level 40. This is measured from a full set of armor—6 slots. If you were to add in accessories, rings, and an amulet, you would see the effects more closely balance out, but still find that from 40 to 80, there is no appreciable change in normalized stats.

Conclusion
Traits (major and minor, not stats from traits), runes, sigils, and utility/elite skills are where you will find the difference between characters of various levels. As high level characters have reached a gear plateau, you are more likely to find characters that have reached the maximum and invested more time in producing synergies that are either unavailable at lower levels or require high-level runes and effects.

Characters that are leveling tend to not have the best gear for their level—I know I don’t have a full set of gear with the most desirable stats waiting for my alts at every level.

Scaling and gear is not the issue, as the game design already takes this into account.

tom.7468:

If they do this then they should also increase the rewards for that area right now there is no reason why anyone would go farm in a lower level area when event rewards is marginal.

I go to lower-level areas explore, to play with low-level friends, and to try new events. And while I’m there, I’d like it to not be so dang easy so I could enjoy the combat experiences as well.

And I agree: if they make it harder, they might as well up the rewards too.

Fildydarie.1496:

Warning: I am a numbers geek. I have invested more time researching this topic than any sane person should.

You’re probably in a good position to solve our quandary then: If scaling is working as it should, why are low-level areas such a cakewalk for high-level, high-geared characters? Was this just how ANet intended it to be?

Well having put the time in to get to level 80 and the gear to go with it, I want the lower areas to be easy, I don’t want them to be the same as when I was level 5 or whatever.

If you make the difficulty level wherever you are and whatever level you are, it just makes the game the same all the time, pretty boring.

Jazhara Knightmage.4389:

if you dont like being a “over powered” for an area, strip ur cloths off and use a low level weapon…problem solved…..

That’s exactly what I do—equip lower-level gear. It gets annoying trying to keep all that gear on hand, or to procure a new set of gear every time I go slumming. It would be nice if there was an easier way, like a slider or something.

Also I’ve heard rumors that gear scales differently than level. I’m still looking for a thorough explanation of how it works, so I can work the system properly.

Fildydarie.1496:

Weapons
I haven’t looked at stat scaling on weapons, only armor, so it is possible there is massive inflation on weapons, but given the other scaling, I find this very unlikely.

This would be interesting to know for sure. Come to think of it…when I’m in a low-level area, I don’t seem ridiculously tough; I just seem ridiculously lethal.

Fildydarie.1496:

Warning: I am a numbers geek. I have invested more time researching this topic than any sane person should. If you wish to refute anything I claim, you had better have numbers to back it up. I’m not going to go into depth regarding the scaling mechanics as you should have already done that before starting this discussion—there are many threads on that topic already—I know because I’ve answered most of them. I will say that I deal in normalized stats—these numbers are universal for any effective level and provide the best point of comparison.

I will consider three levels. Level 1, Level 40, and Level 80. Progression follows a 2nd order polynomial curve, and there are some interesting disparities around level 40, so all other levels fall somewhere between these in terms of interest.

Baseline
At level 1 you have 24 to all stats as your base.
At level 40 you have 308 to all stats as your base.
At level 80 you have 916 to all stats as your base.

These are the values used to determine scaling.

Traits
At level 1 you have 0 points from traits (0 normalized).
At level 40 you have 600 points from traits (1.95 normalized).
At level 80 you have 1400 points from traits (1.53 normalized).

This shows that the impact of traits actually diminishes as players approach 80. At level 11, when you get your first traits, it is (20/68) about 0.29 normalized. Level 39 is actually the peak at 1.96.

So traits aren’t to blame for level 80s being overpowered in low level areas. The benefit of trait points actually diminishes as you level from 39 to 80. You do, of course, get major and minor traits, but we’ll look at those elsewhere.

Weapons
I haven’t looked at stat scaling on weapons, only armor, so it is possible there is massive inflation on weapons, but given the other scaling, I find this very unlikely.

Armor
A level 1 cannot wear full blues—the gear is simply not available.
A level 40 in full blues receives approximately 160 stat points (0.52 normalized).
A level 80 in full blues receives approximately 613 stat points (0.67 normalized).

There is a slight inflation in normalized stats from gear, however it is worth noting that the decrease in stats from traits is far more significant. Even allowing for exotic gear (32% over fine) this is only 0.88 normalized, an increase of 0.36 over level 40. This is measured from a full set of armor—6 slots. If you were to add in accessories, rings, and an amulet, you would see the effects more closely balance out, but still find that from 40 to 80, there is no appreciable change in normalized stats.

Conclusion
Traits (major and minor, not stats from traits), runes, sigils, and utility/elite skills are where you will find the difference between characters of various levels. As high level characters have reached a gear plateau, you are more likely to find characters that have reached the maximum and invested more time in producing synergies that are either unavailable at lower levels or require high-level runes and effects.

Characters that are leveling tend to not have the best gear for their level—I know I don’t have a full set of gear with the most desirable stats waiting for my alts at every level.

Scaling and gear is not the issue, as the game design already takes this into account.

I do have to ask, have you tried tying in trait points to armour stats? Wouldn’t that see a much more significant increase in the normalised figure?

Im not a numbers geek like you, i dont even know how you normalised it.

Also, did you take into consideration at what point traits are given? your model wouldnt fit for a level 80 in a level 5 zone, seeing as you get your first trait point at level 11.

Also, i think the tiers of not only utility skills and major and minor traits would affect it as well.

You’d see a significant change in a players capability once they start reaching higher tiers of utility skills. Thieves have much more survivability when they gain the skill shadow refuge, which is a 6 skill point ability, than they would have with just blinding powder.

Also, until level 40, each tier has a limit of ten trait points allowed per trait line, which by 39 would be very spread out even in most points allotted per trait line. when you get to 59 you have a similar deal, but it’s much more concentrated than when at level 39 because you can have 20 per trait line.

i think its more of a case of looking at the whole thing and how it intertwines rather than which specific thing is at fault.

Also, couldn’t we argue that a player who has played to level 80 would be much more skilled than a player at level 10? and that players skill would also be a factor at the level of difficulty of playing at lower levels?

Shabudua.7601:

Fildydarie.1496:

Warning: I am a numbers geek. I have invested more time researching this topic than any sane person should.

You’re probably in a good position to solve our quandary then: If scaling is working as it should, why are low-level areas such a cakewalk for high-level, high-geared characters? Was this just how ANet intended it to be?

A large part of the ease comes down to internal build synergies. While I was leveling, it was a rarity to equip 2 matching minor runes. Now, at 80, I have 5 matched Superior Krait runes (6th only applies underwater).

As you level, you tend to replace your gear as you have upgrades available. Due to downscaling and/or progression of content, you’re really treading water. At 80, with no more scaling, every upgrade is a genuine upgrade. When you couple this effect with targeted purchases, the effects of customized stats (as you level you get to choose how you want them distributed more and more in line with your desired build than at lower levels), rune and sigil bonuses (those do scale directly at higher levels), and major/minor trait selections, you do have an overall power creep.

When I go to a really low level area, it is pretty simple for me. I can take on almost any odds and win—it just isn’t very rewarding. Slightly higher level areas, however I still have to be careful—I can get overwhelmed and I am not invulnerable. As a seasoned adventurer going back to my old stomping grounds, this is how I would expect things to play out—as a hero, I should be able to perform heroic acts in these areas.

If you didn’t feel stronger, you would have the grind present in so many other games—it wouldn’t matter how much effort you put out, you would never actually get stronger in relevant content. Downscaling is a means to prolong the relevancy of content, not prevent the trivialization.

Also, I took a look at weapons; I only looked at weapons from 5-35, but they followed the same general trend as armor, specifically the damage on fine weapons drops relative to your base stats, suggesting that masterwork, rare, and exotic are necessary to keep pace with stat growth.

castlemanic.3198:

Also, couldn’t we argue that a player who has played to level 80 would be much more skilled than a player at level 10? and that players skill would also be a factor at the level of difficulty of playing at lower levels?

For me it isn’t really a general feeling of being stronger. It’s a very specific phenomenon: I two-shot everything. I doubt my increase in player skill causes my individual attacks to be that much more lethal.

@castlemanic.3198: At very low levels you lack so much in so many different areas, it is very hard to make any meaningful comparison. Until level 30, you don’t have your full set of skills. You probably won’t have a full set of armor before 10. This is part of the disparity—if I neglected to mention that incomplete gear is part, well… I’m only sylvari.

My goal was to illustrate that from 40-80 you don’t actually get stronger from gear, so it isn’t scaling and gear that is at issue. If you want to point fingers, it is that your typical new adventurer is ill-equipped to face the world.

At 30, you are now, in the strictest technical sense, ready to face the world as a hero—you have weapons, armor, and a full skill bar. Your power will not vary greatly from this point on.

Player skill is certainly a factor, much like having a full set of gear is.

Scaling in a nutshell (including definition of normalized stats):

At each level you have a base amount of power/toughness/vitality/precision. This is the base I mentioned above. To scale to another level, divide one of your stats (including food, gear, traits, etc) by this value. This will give the normalized value. To find your stats at a different level, you now multiply by that level’s base value.

there is another solution also take off your armor and pick up a crappy weapon there you go its hard again.

Fildydarie.1496:

@castlemanic.3198: At very low levels you lack so much in so many different areas, it is very hard to make any meaningful comparison. Until level 30, you don’t have your full set of skills. You probably won’t have a full set of armor before 10. This is part of the disparity—if I neglected to mention that incomplete gear is part, well… I’m only sylvari.

My goal was to illustrate that from 40-80 you don’t actually get stronger from gear, so it isn’t scaling and gear that is at issue. If you want to point fingers, it is that your typical new adventurer is ill-equipped to face the world.

At 30, you are now, in the strictest technical sense, ready to face the world as a hero—you have weapons, armor, and a full skill bar. Your power will not vary greatly from this point on.

Player skill is certainly a factor, much like having a full set of gear is.

Scaling in a nutshell (including definition of normalized stats):

At each level you have a base amount of power/toughness/vitality/precision. This is the base I mentioned above. To scale to another level, divide one of your stats (including food, gear, traits, etc) by this value. This will give the normalized value. To find your stats at a different level, you now multiply by that level’s base value.

I see, thanks for saying how you got the figures and i apologise for getting confused.
I’d say numbers wise you hit the nail on the head. Good job!

Many DEs in low level zones are still not balanced for solo or few players, and a high level player is always very useful.
When I play with my level 80s, I help them.
When I play with my lowbies, they help me.
OP is only looking at one side of the matter. Be more positive and things would be better.
Unless you insist on soloing everything all on your own.

BTW when I play my level 80s, I would always try to save the percentage for any lowbies around me so they still get the kills and loots.

It is about considerate or not. An inconsiderate player, level 80 or not, still cause you trouble. He can just do a small part of the DE, making it scale to a 2 player difficulty and leave quickly, leaving you alone to collect 10 items or face groups of 6 for the remains of an escort.

Ok, so maybe it’s not related to how gear scales…but I still agree with the rest of the statement:

jckeith.6149:

Simply put, level 80s are way too powerful in low level dynamic events because downscaling does not nerf their gear (or nerf it enough). As a level 80 going around exploring the rest of the world, it’s really boring to two-shot everything. And as a lowbie doing events, it’s really boring when some guy is just mowing all the enemies down single handedly. It’s not much different than traditional MMOs at that point, where max level characters can come in and massacre entire zones.

Maybe it’s just my personal preference, but I wish downscaled characters performed more in the same ballpark as their naturally-leveled counterparts. Particularly in terms of DPS. Now the question is whether ArenaNet wanted it this way, or if downscaling isn’t working properly.

Personally I would like them to get rid of level all together, go full action combat, and have players work purely based on skill and play style. But.. that would be a revamp almost on the scale of pretty much just making a new game. That won’t happen for the time being…

On the one hand some players want to feel an illusion of progression by means of gearing up and level bonuses. These players are also the ones that want more challenges in a game even though the progression they constantly ask for makes most of the content obsolete.

Making most of the game become obsolete and pretty much boxes players into the few max level zones for anything somewhat worthwhile or challenging seems just wasteful; once you get through an area, there is really no point in returning in most cases.

In my opinion they really need to extend the lifespan of the current areas in game by updating and creating new events and making each zone worthwhile to return to at max level.