Guild Wars 2

Interesting ideas, but I don’t see how they could just be added as mechanics without overhauling the whole combat system (or lack-thereof).

There is no defense in GW2 – at all. The only option is to move out of the way.

You never miss, unless your ranged attack is out of range.
There is no back and forth, attack/block/parry/riposte/counterattack -
There is attack/hit/get hit if you haven’t moved out of the way.
There is no crouch/duck. There is no actual “strafe” – instead it is run left or right.

An actual strafe in combat would be a quick one-two-three+ step in a given direction.
Shields would be able to block arrows/projectiles, bash things, parry attacks.
Currently, everyone can dual wield – regardless of class. It isn’t even a skill. There isn’t even a penalty for off-handed attacks. Quarterstaves don’t exist.

I think perhaps a combat-style could work, but even that would still require a major change to the all-out-offensive-only combat of GW2.

E.g. Certain styles would have default settings for Offensive/Defensive split.
Sword & Shield might be 50/50, if you learn certain skills/or ranks in S&S style you could change the settings up/down.

Parry would be a skill, not every class would have it. It could easily be passive, and dependent on your characters skill and how much emphasis you placed on defense.

Dodge would be a skill, not a simple action that anyone can do.

To me tumble sounds like a side effect of dodge, as opposed to a entirely new ability — and certain classes would be better at it than others.

Running in a circle and attacking would (if things made sense) be more difficult than standing in place, “strafing” and tactically moving around – within melee range.

Warriors that get a successful (passive) parry or shield block, might have a brief opportunity 0.5s to hit a key to launch a counter-attack/riposte.

Thief-like characters that successfully dodge/tumble might have a brief opportunity to launch an attack that would be more difficult to avoid.

All these things, and many of the suggestions here would for the most part require slowing combat down a little more to allow more tactical type of play

i actually like stationary dodge known as parry

Balderstrom, your initial statements don’t really sound like an argument at all.
The point of Parry is to provide an alternative to Dodge where you don’t move.
I suggest a bunch of different – possible – pros and cons, but the overall idea is to just be able to spend Endurance in more ways than just rolling about like Sonic the Hedgehog.

The game has too much kiting. Dodge only makes it worse.
Sometimes you don’t want to move – you just want to avoid the blow.

If you say the game already has Block so there’s no need for Parry, I say the game already has teleports, leaps and charges and there’s no need for Dodge.

Block can be used while moving (for the most part), while Parry is meant to be stationary.

If Parry has 100% effect as you cast it, and then loses 10% every quarter second or so, it will reward proper timing and skill.

What is Kiting or Strafing other than just pressing 1 or 2 directional buttons + mouse, while pressing skills?
It’s no more challenging than paying attention to the fight and making the decision between Dodging, or standing still and use Parry, depending on the situation.

I think Parry could change cost and effectiveness depending on your weapons:
- Shield = Costs 10% less Endurance
- Gun = Prevents 10% less damage per Gun
- Rifle, Long Bow, Short Bow, Harpoon Gun = Prevents 20% less damage

Remember, all of the suggestions in this thread are ways to make use of Endurance.

Very nice idea. Keep it up and hopefully Anet likes it

I’ve been thinking about the ideas presented here, and I realize now what seemed wrong with it. Which aren’t the ideas themselves (other ways to utilize endurance).

1) All Races have the same Walk/Run speed.
2) All Classes regardless of Armour worn have the same Walk/Run speed.
3) All Classes regardless of Armour worn are extremely agile and can dodge.

It would be very cool to have Shield Block/Bash and Weapon Parry/Riposte but it should go hand-in-hand with a rebalancing of Speed/Dodge.

It makes absolutely no sense, and looks kinda ludicrous that Full-Plate warriors and “Mages/Engineers” are bouncing around like jackrabbits.

Rangers & Thieves: Fast (10), Agile (10), effective Dodge (10).
Mages & Engineers: Speed (7), Agile (7), Dodge (7)
Warriors/Heavy Armour: Speed (5), Agile (4), Dodge (4)

Mages/Engineers would/should have some other type of defense than dodge.
Warrior-types should have some kind of stationary defense, and not be very good at dodge at all. Likewise there should very well be speed reductions for Heavy-Armor and possibly Mages and Engineers.

Acrobatic type maneuvers, including effective dodge/roll should be the primary domain of classes that would learn those types of skills.

E.g. a mage/or even warrior attempting to dodge might look like an awkward leap in a given direction, and you may not even land on your feet.

For those classes that aren’t skilled at dodge, it might even require using up some Initiative when a dodge is performed.

I agree with you that the costs for the various Endurance activities could vary with Profession.
I think they should vary with Weapon as well.
Each profession and weapon could have its own bonus/penalty to the cost/effect of each Endurance action.
Here’s how it could go:

1. Parry:
   - Shield = -10% Endurance Cost
   - Gun = -10% damage Parried (per Gun)
   - Rifle = -20% damage Parried
   - Harpoon Gun = -20% damage Parried
   - Short Bow = -15% damage Parried
   - Long Bow = -20% damage Parried
   - Staff = -15% damage Parried
   - Trident = -15% damage Parried
   - Scepter = -10% damage Parried
   - Focus = -5% damage Parried
   - Warhorn = -5% damage Parried
   - Thief/Ranger/Engineer = -5% damage Parried
   - Elementalist/Necromancer/Mesmer = -10% damage Parried
2. Dodge:
   - Warrior/Guardian = +10% Endurance Cost; -X Distance Traveled
   - Thief/Ranger/Engineer = +5% Endurance Cost
   - Elementalist/Necromancer/Mesmer = -X Distance Traveled
3. Sprint:
   - Warrior/Guardian = +10% Initial Cost; +2% Cost per Second
   - Thief/Ranger/Engineer = +5% Initial Cost; +1% Cost per Second
   - Elementalist/Necromancer/Mesmer = -5% Movement Speed Bonus

Balderstrom.5809:

It makes absolutely no sense,

it makes no sense that eles can throw fireballs
it makes no sense that projectile weapons dont reload
i makes no sense that a person (/asura/norn/mutated kitty/celery) can get stabbed in the stomach with a sword; stuck with a ridiculous amount of arrows/bullets(crossfire/unload) and still show no evidence of damage
it makes no sense that someone can miraculously heal any damage and cure massive bleeding (especially by shouting -‘shake it off’)

arguing logic in a fantasy game (especially when it affects balancing) doesnt make much sense

I didn’t claim it “makes no sense” due to real world considerations or even logical considerations.

It makes no sense within the context of a fantasy RPG. I don’t think I’ve played any RPG that cut all the classes from the same cloth like this.

DnD: Movement based on Race and Armour.
Gurps: Movement based on your Speed stat, which is modified by DEX and skills.
Heroes: Movement based on your Speed stat, modified by DEX-like stats and skills.
Arcanum: I can’t recall off the top of my head, but it had numerous Acrobatic Skills.
Warhammer: Movement based on your Race & Armour; profession-skills.
etc.
Dodge in all those games would be based on class-like skills and rooted in DEX.
Parry/Riposte/Block/Shield-Bash all skills, based primarily from your key combat/weapon skills and class-like specialties.

Even leaving “sense” or “balance” aside, it would be more fun from a player’s perspective if the various classes played and felt differently beyond a cut and dried weapon-type restriction.

I think it does make sense. It makes the combat more dynamic and more realistic, which is the main target of a game.

Just tossing an idea out there…

What about profession specific endurance use skills or maybe just armor class specific endurance skills?

Like for for light = Mystic Mist: use a quarter of your endurance to block an AoE (any multi-hit skill).
For medium = Duck!: use a quarter of your endurance to evade a single target attack (ranged or melee)
For heavy = Frustrated Counter: use a quarter of your endurance to counter a single target attack (counter is like Mesmer Mimic which lets you throw back an attack after receiving with all the effects attached). Also knocks back the one countered.

I like the idea of Tumble but it doesn’t seem logical to ‘parry’ a group. IMO, the idea should be “use dodge vs lots of enemies” and “use [insert idea] for single foes”. If it were that, you’d be capable of handling a 1 foe more efficiently vs using your 2 dodges to get out of 1 enemy’s reach.

It makes sense to Parry a group as much as it makes sense to Block a group.

If you notice, however, I suggest that you only Parry attacks from the front.
Plus, regarding Parry vs AoE, if there’s an explosion, and you have a pillar in front of you, you are protected from the explosion (unless the pillar shatters xD).

In this case, the pillar is the weapon, the explosion is the AoE.
You get the point.

But I’m not saying I disagree completely with you.
Some AoE doesn’t make much sense to be Parried (like a pool of poison).
Others, like spinning attacks, etc, make sense getting parried.
Perhaps if attacks can be flagged as “Impact”, they can be Parried.

Only one thought keeping me busy about this: is it viable? We can’t possibly be tapping 20 keys at the same time, cause then it’s not about in-game skill, but about being able to tap the fastest, which would be a waste of the dynamic combat the game has atm.
With your suggestion it seems like we have some 5 new keys to minister (dodge, parry, block, duck, strafe and whatsoever). Might be better if we just kept it simple (double-tap to dodge).

Nurvus.2891:

It makes sense to Parry a group as much as it makes sense to Block a group.

But you tend not to be able to block a group. The only block that blocks ‘groups’ is when using a Shield and Mesmer Mimic (that I can tell). Every other block tends to have a number attached (blocks 3, blocks twice, etc).

It makes sense to block a group with a shield. Doesn’t make sense to parry a group without one.

Sirendor, deciding between clicking V or clicking direction+V isn’t really about who taps the fastest, nor does it require anymore skill than now.
It’s just less mindless kiting.

This would be an AWESOME idea. I’m behind it 100%!

Taven.5402:

This would be an AWESOME idea. I’m behind it 100%!

Well, I’m not exactly sure how the “+1” works, but I suppose if enough people support the thread by clicking it, the chances of it getting seen by the devs is higher.

Leo G.4501:

Nurvus.2891:

It makes sense to Parry a group as much as it makes sense to Block a group.

But you tend not to be able to block a group. The only block that blocks ‘groups’ is when using a Shield and Mesmer Mimic (that I can tell). Every other block tends to have a number attached (blocks 3, blocks twice, etc).

It makes sense to block a group with a shield. Doesn’t make sense to parry a group without one.

Guardian’s heal blocks everything.

I suggested Parry to only block attacks from the front.
I never said Parry would be a static stance where everything that hits you is parried.
It’s not hard to imagine the character adjusting the position of his weapon with every Parry, giving the impression he’s Parrying each hit individually, rather than using the weapon like a wall.

This game also needs tools to allow/encourage players to stand their ground as well, from time to time.
Endless Kiting isn’t fun.

The players are not less dazzed by the allure, and understand better the ins and outs of the combat system.

Is the need for an improvement to the Endurance system more apparent, or do you feel the same way?

interesting idea, but feels a bit too complicated…

parry on spells or even aoes? or arrows and bullets? (and how about adding lightsabers?) you are just trying to make bunkers more OP even although its nonsense, no thanks, if yes, then only melee physical dmg

downed dodge/parry seems to be interesting

tumble seems to be too OP, maybe if it requires 100% energy, otherwise no way…

sprint looks interesting

faster recovery while standing still AND OUT OF COMBAT, then yes

- I agree there can be a distinction between spell and physical parry effectiveness.
Some weapons might be better at parrying spells, others better at parrying physical attacks.
There’s alot of possibilities.
- The costs for the suggested abilities are placeholders. You might be right about Tumble being more fair with high Endurance cost. But remember, if you get out of a knockdown/knockback, you are now unable to Dodge an attack for a while, wich might be another Knockdown/knockback.
- Faster recovery while standing still, is meant to reduce the overwhelming need to kite every and anything, by rewarding you for standing your ground and using Endurance abilities at the right time.
The epitome of this is Parry, the ultimate reward for those who want to stand their ground, yet still different from Dodge.

Sounds excellent. It would fall to the developers to see it balanced and running simply and smoothly, but I would love this kind of addition to what is already reaction based game play.

I like these ideas a lot. That extra movement with sprint and the ability to parry attacks quickly while returning attacks would make melee combat really interesting. The parry might also be able to stretch out combat duration a little more by giving everyone more fight sustainability if used properly. In general, the more things you can do with a single resource, the better in my opinion. ANet has been pretty poor with this paradigm throughout GW2 and I would love to see Endurance get an expansion to its role in active play. More importantly is how I can see your suggestions being rather easily integrated into the game. There aren’t any coding issues as far as I can see.

Also, I agree with Linguistically Inept that the tumble for fall damage should be something like 75% of one’s total Endurance.

Due to MaXi.3642 input, I added the indication that some weapons would be less effective against Spells and others against Physical.

Furthermore, it’s important to note, that, while wielding a Shield, Parry is effectively an on-demand partial Block, although you use both hands.

The combat system will definitely need more depth in the future.

As good as it is now, it will become more stale and boring down the road. Alot of pvp players are already commenting how the current combat and meta game for it is becoming tiresome. Considering the goals of gw2, I think an acceptance that the combat system should be more action than traditional shouldnt be too hard to swallow.

Because of this I highly approve of this idea. People have suggested parry mechanics before, aswell as sprint however your additions and adjustments to the idea make it very viable.

Love the tumble idea, would give players defensive options for when that stab guard goes down first
Personally I would make it require 50% endurance like dodge but it would drain the whole endurance bar when activated. This would give players incentive to actually try and dodge the knockback skill in the first place, rather than relying on the tumbling mechanic to save their skin.

Balderstrom.5809:

Interesting ideas, but I don’t see how they could just be added as mechanics without overhauling the whole combat system (or lack-thereof).

There is no defense in GW2 – at all. The only option is to move out of the way.

You never miss, unless your ranged attack is out of range.
There is no back and forth, attack/block/parry/riposte/counterattack -
There is attack/hit/get hit if you haven’t moved out of the way.
There is no crouch/duck. There is no actual “strafe” – instead it is run left or right.

An actual strafe in combat would be a quick one-two-three+ step in a given direction.
Shields would be able to block arrows/projectiles, bash things, parry attacks.
Currently, everyone can dual wield – regardless of class. It isn’t even a skill. There isn’t even a penalty for off-handed attacks. Quarterstaves don’t exist.

I think perhaps a combat-style could work, but even that would still require a major change to the all-out-offensive-only combat of GW2.

E.g. Certain styles would have default settings for Offensive/Defensive split.
Sword & Shield might be 50/50, if you learn certain skills/or ranks in S&S style you could change the settings up/down.

Parry would be a skill, not every class would have it. It could easily be passive, and dependent on your characters skill and how much emphasis you placed on defense.

Dodge would be a skill, not a simple action that anyone can do.

To me tumble sounds like a side effect of dodge, as opposed to a entirely new ability — and certain classes would be better at it than others.

Running in a circle and attacking would (if things made sense) be more difficult than standing in place, “strafing” and tactically moving around – within melee range.

Warriors that get a successful (passive) parry or shield block, might have a brief opportunity 0.5s to hit a key to launch a counter-attack/riposte.

Thief-like characters that successfully dodge/tumble might have a brief opportunity to launch an attack that would be more difficult to avoid.

All these things, and many of the suggestions here would for the most part require slowing combat down a little more to allow more tactical type of play

Although i agree with alot of your points, i dont agree the system would need a massive overhaul in order to implement this. As someone already said, it really shouldnt be a problem to code or to integrate with current systems. Or at least as far as my limited knowledge in game design tells me.

You say theres no defense in gw2 at all, I agree. However isnt that what this whole idea is about?

You also mention alot of mechanics that you think would need to be included for this to work, yet the idea itself is based on a equal footing. Much easier to balance classes when you add a new system to all of them equally. Ask yourself whats more of a challenge in terms of balancing… Giving every class a mechanic, but slightly twisting variables for a unique feel OR giving everyone the exact same mechanic and leaving balance to skill adjustments as per usual.
Its like the controversal issue of racial traits and skills. All that achieves is make people feel like they need a certain class to perform well with the mechanic.

Explain to me why it would be difficult to implement please, cos i fail to see it.

Nurvus.2891:

I think it would be cool if we could do more than Dodge with the Endurance.
Dodge uses up 50% Endurance, gives you mobility and lets you avoid everything and anything.

Furthermore, the game is too much of a Kitefest, at the moment.
Something to reward player skill, without requiring constant moving, would improve the game just for that.

My concern is that the game might become to complicated to pick up and play by most casuals!
I love Demon Souls and Dark Souls as much as you do, but if you remember correctly, those games where considered by casuals to be hard as hell!

Suggestion #1 – Parry
Command: Press only V while standing still (no directions pressed)
Effect: A stationary “Dodge” wich costs less Endurance but also has several restrictions. Essentially, you block with your Weapon(s).
Lasts up to 2 seconds.

Pros (comparing to Dodge):

• Lower Cost
  -> 40% Endurance by default
  -> 30% Endurance if you are wielding a Shield
• Lasts longer (2 seconds)
• Can be cancelled into movement and/or any action/skill

Cons (comparing to Dodge):

• You must stand still while parrying
• Only works against attacks from the front
• Only works against AoE if its center is in front of you
• Certain weapons might be less effective for Parry
  - Gun = -10% damage Parried (per Gun)
  - Rifle = -20% damage Parried
  - Harpoon Gun = -20% damage Parried
  - Short Bow = -15% damage Parried
  - Long Bow = -20% damage Parried
  - Staff = -15% damage Parried
  - Trident = -15% damage Parried
  - Scepter = -10% damage Parried
  - Focus = -5% damage Parried
  - Warhorn = -5% damage Parried
• Some weapons might be less effective vs Spell/Physical (inspired by MaXi.3642).
  - Weapons such as Staff and Scepter might be less effective vs Physical.
  - Weapons such as Swords might be less effective vs Spell.
• Rewards timing (inspired by MithranArkanere.8957)
  - After the first 0.75 seconds, effect weakens by 5% every 0.25 seconds
  - Prevents 100% damage on the first 0.74 seconds
  - Prevents 95% damage between 0.75 s and 0.99 s
  - Prevents 90% damage between 1.00 and 1.24 s
  - Prevents 85% damage between 1.25 and 1.49 s
  - Prevents 80% damage between 1.50 and 1.74 s
  - Prevents 75% damage between 1.75 and 1.99 s

The super skilled players with frame perfect timing will get to big of an advantage, and you’ll see every single hit you land on them being blocked! This is an MMO and you’ll have to think of the casual gamers as well!

Oh! They will enjoy the game while powning noobs, you can be sure about that! But the learning curve to get your self to their skill will become to big, and people are definitely going to rage-quit!

Suggestion #2 – Sprint (idea by MithranArkanere.8957)
Command: Hold C while running
Cost: Probably 30% initial Endurance cost, then 15% every second (since you gain 5% Endurance per second, it takes 7 seconds to spend 100% Endurance).
Effect: Spend Endurance to run at X% bonus speed (stacks with Swiftness).
Cons:

• Can’t attack while Sprinting (idea by BrunoBRS.5178)

Appears to drains endurance to fast! The areas in GW2 are much bigger than Dark Souls, so I don’t see it being implemented as a traveling method. Also it isn’t realy much deferent than buffing your self with some skill.

Better ask for some mounts!

To be continued…

Parry should be on a separate key from dodge (perhaps a new key altogether).

Other than that I like all of the suggestions.

Nurvus.2891:

Suggestion #3 – Tumble
Command: Press V when you are Launched, Knocked back or Knocked down to roll and get back on your feet.
Reduces fall damage by 50% if used up to 1 second before landing.
Cost: 50% Endurance

Like it, But some falls are meant to kill you!
I suggest putting a fixed fall distance that kills you even if you Tumble, and have the skill being used instead on avoiding falling falling in your face and loosing time!

Suggestion #4 – Downed Roll/Parry
Ability to use Dodge and Parry while downed.

• You travel less distance with Downed Roll.
• You prevent less damage (around 25% less) with Downed Parry
  - If Parry prevents 100%, this prevents 75%.

Don’t like it!
There is already a lot of kittening for players not dying instantly in PVP. If there was some extra ways to move away from the stomp beside the obvious, it would become a nightmare.

Instead I suggest crawling!
Players should be able to crawl around after 5 seconds of being downed at a very slow speed. If an enemy player starts a stomping animation on them, he also locks their movement!

Suggestion #5 – Faster Endurance Recovery while Still

• After standing still for 1 second, your Endurance should start recovering faster (50% faster or so).
• Moving breaks the Bonus
• Actions only break the Bonus if they move you (Leap, Teleport, etc).
  Since Parry doesn’t move you, it may not need a lower Endurance cost.
• This would discourage the constant “running in circles while casting” tactics wich, in my opinion, are getting really old and boring, and also give some unfair advantages to ranged builds.
  I rather have a little more reactive gameplay.

Looks cool!
But 50% is a bit to much!
Make it 30% or 40%. The golden spot should be somewhere there!

To be honest, I simply think none of your skills while downed should be as good as the skills while standing AND your downed health should also be alot smaller.

This is really great! But I am sure that they will never implement this…

I like the idea of adding more uses for endurance. Sprinting in particular seems like a good addition.

Sprinting is technically the same thing as swiftness or a skill like Bull’s charge/Ride the Lightning/…

Sirendor.1394:

Sprinting is technically the same thing as swiftness or a skill like Bull’s charge/Ride the Lightning/…

That’s like saying Parry is technically the same as Blocking (Guardian’s Shelter, etc).

It’s not.
Skills don’t share a resource – except for Thief.
They have individual cooldowns.

What I’m suggesting here, is to offer a broad variety of Actions that share Enduranec as a resource and are available to all Professions.

This means if you use your Endurance to Sprint, you can’t simultaneously use it to Dodge or Parry – but you can still use Bull’s Charge or Shelter.
Likewise, if you use it to Parry, you can’t use it to Dodge or Sprint – but you can still use Ride the Lightning.

The inherent gameplay is quite different – it’s about decision-making.
It’s not a “boost”.

Furthermore, constantly swapping between combat, travel & gathering skill setups is neither fun nor skillful.
So this also makes out-of-combat travel a little faster by allowing players to sprint around at a decent frequency, while having their favorite skill setup – rather than the most effective for traveling.

Nice ideas. I have only one comment on sprint: it’s too much. Zergs in WvW are already moving super fast (since they usually got perma swiftness cause a lot of people take aoe swiftnesses to WvW), adding sprint would make it over the top. To solve that, I think the current out of combat speed with swiftness should be set as a maximum, so sprinting while already having swiftness would only be effective in combat, to reduce the negative effect of combat on movement speed.

Well, you kind of answered yourself.

First, Sprint wouldn’t stack with any other movement speed bonuses – be it Signets, Swiftness or otherwise.
Sprint would be faster than Swiftness, like 50% bonus instead of 33%, but should end up providing a similar average travel speed when compared to Swiftness+Dodge spam.

Second, with Sprint available, you’d see less Utility Slots being occupied by Swiftness skills, leading to more tactical fights.

What do you think about my Stat suggestion (Link in my Sig).

The issue I have with some of your suggestions is that they require dynamic server-side interaction (especially noticeable with the parry timings and the likes), increasing the amount of data transmitted and need for low latency while playing, as well as modifying most of the skills in the game due to the addition of a spell/physical type modifier(which amounts to a lot of work, seeing as you also need to not only touch on physical skills, but also on bundles picked up in the overworld. A rough estimate would be around more than a hundred skills to be modified for the professions alone).

I hate that this idea will never be considered because of a combination of ANet being too lazy to do it and “CASUALS.”

Absolutely hate it. This is an amazing idea.

I hate the idea of necros getting dmg mitigation buffs.

… because of a massive hp pool from DS.

(see what I did thar?)