Evaluating armor damage against the philosophy of fun
Just to point out you nolonger take armor damage for death from falling. Only time you take it is when you are actually killed which in all honesty is how it should be. If your ignorant enough to “graveyard zerg” instead of learn the content and actually do it with minimal death then you should have to pay for it.
Just to point out you nolonger take armor damage for death from falling. Only time you take it is when you are actually killed which in all honesty is how it should be. If your ignorant enough to “graveyard zerg” instead of learn the content and actually do it with minimal death then you should have to pay for it.
That’s assuming that all players should be able to complete content (i.e. dungeons) without dying. What I’m really talking about is content, where death is part of the learning experience. Any content you can complete without some death and learning is not really challenging content. I’m more interested in scaling challenges and removing the excessive penalty for mastering that content.
repair costs are so minimal that it never really discouraged me from any kind of challenging content, even those dungeon runs where you die like 30 times on your first attempt.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
I think the big problem with armor damage is how you can be forced to go back and forth.
You essentially get a maximum of 6 defeats before pieces of your equipment start getting broken.
Instead, I think each piece of equipment should have at least 10/10 Durability, including Weapons.
- Whenever you get downed, you should lose 1 durability on 1 random piece of equipment.
Undamaged equipment (51% to 100% durability) is damaged first.
Damaged equipment (1 to 50% durability) is damaged last.
- Whenever you get defeated, you should lose 1 durability on all pieces of equipment.
The total cost after a defeat should be roughly the same.
Essentially, Durability should be an immersive gold sink, not a fun sink.
Just to point out you nolonger take armor damage for death from falling. Only time you take it is when you are actually killed which in all honesty is how it should be. If your ignorant enough to “graveyard zerg” instead of learn the content and actually do it with minimal death then you should have to pay for it.
That’s assuming that all players should be able to complete content (i.e. dungeons) without dying. What I’m really talking about is content, where death is part of the learning experience. Any content you can complete without some death and learning is not really challenging content. I’m more interested in scaling challenges and removing the excessive penalty for mastering that content.
So basically you want no penalty at all. When in truth sure your first few runs you break even. But after that you tend to come out way ahead. Frankly i still see no need for a change. The penalty is there for those who refuse to learn. Those that do learn eventually make serious bank even with penalty in place.
SiNoS.
Here’s an example of what I’d rather have in terms of challenge:
- When you’re defeated in a dungeon, you’re out until the end of the fight (can’t use waypoint).
- Content tuned less towards gear check and more towards player skill; less about 2-shots and more about properly managing incoming damage, survival and damage dealing.
Giving you the ability to constantly go back into the fight, but at the same time making fights all about a zillion health points + 2-shot attacks isn’t the best concept of challenge.
SiNoS.
Here’s an example of what I’d rather have in terms of challenge:
- When you’re defeated in a dungeon, you’re out until the end of the fight (can’t use waypoint).
- Content tuned less towards gear check and more towards player skill; less about 2-shots and more about properly managing incoming damage, survival and damage dealing.Giving you the ability to constantly go back into the fight, but at the same time making fights all about a zillion health points + 2-shot attacks isn’t the best concept of challenge.
While i agree there is something nice about the way dungeon’s are made. While yes you can graveyard zerg i’ve actually been in groups where we set “rules” such as no waypoints. By setting these guide lines those of us that want more streamline runs can create them for our self’s while those that are not as skilled can still do the content if they for example graveyard zerg. I feel thats what ANet planned for the start. You make the dungeon what you want. Heck i know people who do them without there armor just because its an option for them. I’ve also seen others that use only weapon skill and there race skill’s, others that use no skill’s 7-0. Thats the beauty in the design it just takes a little bit of imagination to get the most out of these zones. Heck one of the funnest runs i’ve ever done was what we called the perma run. Basically its exactly what it sounds like we ran till everyone had died. Sure we dident finish but the fact is we had a blast seeing how far we could do with the guide line in place.
I guess the real question for armor damage is what does it add in terms of making the game more fun?
The penalty for failing a challenge is time and failure. Truth is a lot of folks learn at different rates, all I’m suggesting is removing an additional barrier for some to be able to learn and tackle this content. And it’s true others might not see this as a barrier.
Also, in some ways I feel like it adds a ceiling to how insanely challenging you can design your content.
Nurvus.2891, I don’t think your points are mutually exclusive. I’d like to see the reigns of difficulty and creativity let loose on the top end content. I just believe that armor damage is a barrier for a lot of folks and what you end up is a smaller percentage of players you can group with who are willing to incur the cost to learn and tackle that content.
Take away armor damage from combat-related death and you take away the incentive to develop skill.
I think the big problem with armor damage is how you can be forced to go back and forth.
You essentially get a maximum of 6 defeats before pieces of your equipment start getting broken.Instead, I think each piece of equipment should have at least 10/10 Durability, including Weapons.
- Whenever you get downed, you should lose 1 durability on 1 random piece of equipment.
Undamaged equipment (51% to 100% durability) is damaged first.
Damaged equipment (1 to 50% durability) is damaged last.
- Whenever you get defeated, you should lose 1 durability on all pieces of equipment.The total cost after a defeat should be roughly the same.
Essentially, Durability should be an immersive gold sink, not a fun sink.
I think this would be a step in the right direction.
Take away armor damage from combat-related death and you take away the incentive to develop skill.
I would argue that armor damage has little or no impact to a players incentive to develop skill. I think most people that are trying to become more skilled do it as a result of their intrinsic set of values.
If you look at Daniel Pink’s “Drive” he actually sites studies that extrinsic motivators for tasks that require some level of cognitive skill actually deter from their ability to perform.
Stuff.
I’m just gonna say that a rule of play that players are given to understand they will operate under in any game is not the same as extrinsic motivation. It’s an equalizer, a measure in place to make sure that repetitive failure is not met with pure reward. The penalty by nature ensures that players will try to avoid it. The obvious way is to develop the skill to avoid it, which is an intrinsic desire catalyzed by something outside the player’s control. The wasteful way is to not participate in activities that risk incurring it (i.e. people acting as though repair cost is a barrier when really the barrier is their own skill). The deciding factor is not whether the penalty is extrinsic or intrinsic, but whether the player’s own intrinsic desire to become better is greater than their intrinsic value of small amounts of imaginary money.
Intrinsic desire to become better will take a back seat to the lazy train if there’s no reason to become better, basically.
Oh dear, not another one of these.
Firstly, let’s get one thing out of the way. Just because it’s a game and a pastime, does not mean that everything in it has to be fun. Also, just because you think it isn’t fun does not mean it’s a universal truth. If you start eliminating things based on what individual people think isn’t fun, what you get is basically an empty space. For some, roaming mobs attacking you isn’t fun, so remove it. For some, doing quests isn’t fun, so remove it. For some, crafting isn’t fun, so remove it. For some, the storyline isn’t fun, so remove it. For some, leveling isn’t fun, so remove it. For some, getting exotic gear isn’t fun, so remove those as well. For some, being forced to choose a single class and race isn’t fun, so let’s remove classes and allow you to change your race from a drop-down selection in your Hero menu. See where this is going?
Secondly, you are not meant to play the game in a way that aims to avoid all costs. Hell, by definition that can’t be fun. So basically you’re playing in an inherently unfunny way and are complaining because it is what it is. That’s kinda hilarious. The costs are there for a good reason, so appreciate them. If you’re going to avoid certain content because you’re afraid of the repair fees, you should probably stick to other games.
If anything, obvious penalties for death, such as long traveling time due to contested waypoints, costs due to using waypoints and repair fees encourage you to get a group. And it’s an MMORPG, that’s a pretty big part of it. Granted, GW2 does get a buttload of points for allowing people to solo almost everything. Heck, most of the time I see DE’s failing because of lack of participants or because there’s a time limit to succeeding.
Stuff.
I’m just gonna say that a rule of play that players are given to understand they will operate under in any game is not the same as extrinsic motivation. It’s an equalizer, a measure in place to make sure that repetitive failure is not met with pure reward. The penalty by nature ensures that players will try to avoid it. The obvious way is to develop the skill to avoid it, which is an intrinsic desire catalyzed by something outside the player’s control. The wasteful way is to not participate in activities that risk incurring it (i.e. people acting as though repair cost is a barrier when really the barrier is their own skill). The deciding factor is not whether the penalty is extrinsic or intrinsic, but whether the player’s own intrinsic desire to become better is greater than their intrinsic value of small amounts of imaginary money.
Intrinsic desire to become better will take a back seat to the lazy train if there’s no reason to become better, basically.
Does armor repair costs in any way affect whether you want to be a more skilled player? Truth is people don’t like to fail. That’s all the reason you need to be better. And for the people who need not incurring amor repair costs as motivator… then the content is probably not geared for them anyway.
So then the content isn’t geared for people that think the repair cost is a barrier to playing the game?
oh yeah, armor repairs are also a way to punish graveyard rushing. if you just graveyard rush through the entire dungeon, you’ll not only take like 20 times longer to beat the dungeon, but you’ll lose money instead of winning.
if you play effectively, you don’t die, don’t pay repair costs, finish the dungeon faster and profit.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
Oh dear, not another one of these.
Firstly, let’s get one thing out of the way. Just because it’s a game and a pastime, does not mean that everything in it has to be fun. Also, just because you think it isn’t fun does not mean it’s a universal truth. If you start eliminating things based on what individual people think isn’t fun, what you get is basically an empty space. For some, roaming mobs attacking you isn’t fun, so remove it. For some, doing quests isn’t fun, so remove it. For some, crafting isn’t fun, so remove it. For some, the storyline isn’t fun, so remove it. For some, leveling isn’t fun, so remove it. For some, getting exotic gear isn’t fun, so remove those as well. For some, being forced to choose a single class and race isn’t fun, so let’s remove classes and allow you to change your race from a drop-down selection in your Hero menu. See where this is going?
Secondly, you are not meant to play the game in a way that aims to avoid all costs. Hell, by definition that can’t be fun. So basically you’re playing in an inherently unfunny way and are complaining because it is what it is. That’s kinda hilarious. The costs are there for a good reason, so appreciate them. If you’re going to avoid certain content because you’re afraid of the repair fees, you should probably stick to other games.
If anything, obvious penalties for death, such as long traveling time due to contested waypoints, costs due to using waypoints and repair fees encourage you to get a group. And it’s an MMORPG, that’s a pretty big part of it. Granted, GW2 does get a buttload of points for allowing people to solo almost everything. Heck, most of the time I see DE’s failing because of lack of participants or because there’s a time limit to succeeding.
Interesting. So many things to respond to.
To your first point, I’m open to arguments stating how amor repair costs make the game better. I think you are also assuming that I don’t realize that my opinion is an opinion. This is a game suggestion forum. This is where things like this go. But I don’t think it’s valid to state that just because “I” think something, not everyone does, as an argument against a suggestion. Make points on why we should keep it. Let’s have a real debate about the specific issue, not a debate on “what if we listened to every suggestion”
Second, neither of my suggestions talk about avoiding incurring any cost. It’s either replacing cost or making it fixed.
In response to the third paragraph, this is the biggest argument I see for having penalties for armor costs. It either acts as a deterrent for bad behavior or motivates good behavior. My personal opinion is those costs are actually more of a detriment to attempting challenging content than it is a motivator for succeeding that content, and actually motivates “bad behavior” more so than it does “good behavior” And, yeah, it’s just my opinion.
oh yeah, armor repairs are also a way to punish graveyard rushing. if you just graveyard rush through the entire dungeon, you’ll not only take like 20 times longer to beat the dungeon, but you’ll lose money instead of winning.
if you play effectively, you don’t die, don’t pay repair costs, finish the dungeon faster and profit.
Fair point, but I think there are other ways to avoid graveyard rushing. Things like boss lockouts, etc. I’m all for completing challenges “as intended” And I think there are a lot more you could do to curb this. When making this suggestion what I really had in mind was being able to get a group in there for some insanely crazy hard content, where frequent death is actually part of the learning experience. I don’t think that content exists today, but I want it to. I just see repair costs as a barrier to being able to add that content.
So then the content isn’t geared for people that think the repair cost is a barrier to playing the game?
I realize this is a fine line, perhaps a slippery slope. Are you really that invested in this subject, or more interested in winning a forum debate? I’m curious, is a suggestion with the hope of encouraging people experience more challenging content, and even with the hopes encouraging Anet to develop more difficult content that misplaced?
So then the content isn’t geared for people that think the repair cost is a barrier to playing the game?
I realize this is a fine line, perhaps a slippery slope. Are you really that invested in this subject, or more interested in winning a forum debate? I’m curious, is a suggestion with the hope of encouraging people experience more challenging content, and even with the hopes encouraging Anet to develop more difficult content that misplaced?
The problem is if you take out repairs graveyard zerging will get even worse. Atleast right now they will hit a point where they must stop the dungeon because there naked with no coin left.
So then the content isn’t geared for people that think the repair cost is a barrier to playing the game?
I realize this is a fine line, perhaps a slippery slope. Are you really that invested in this subject, or more interested in winning a forum debate? I’m curious, is a suggestion with the hope of encouraging people experience more challenging content, and even with the hopes encouraging Anet to develop more difficult content that misplaced?
The problem is if you take out repairs graveyard zerging will get even worse. Atleast right now they will hit a point where they must stop the dungeon because there naked with no coin left.
I think Nurvus.2891 had some good suggestions in curbing graveyard zerging. And truth is, in the case of graveyard zerging, I would like to see a solution that completely prevents it rather than one that just deters it.
kermit.3601I realize this is a fine line, perhaps a slippery slope. Are you really that invested in this subject, or more interested in winning a forum debate? I’m curious, is a suggestion with the hope of encouraging people experience more challenging content, and even with the hopes encouraging Anet to develop more difficult content that misplaced?
Not at all. I just don’t see repair cost as a deterrent to players or an obstacle to harder content. If I scale my first experience with AC in a group of 4 first-timers up to level 80 in terms of repair costs, an hour of events in Orr should be enough to fund a solid two hours of repeated deaths in a dungeon, assuming slight Graveyard zerging. I cannot objectively see how repair cost is a deterrent to any but the most frugal of penny-pinchers (or as the case may be, those that spend all they have beforehand).
Just play without armor on.
It’s a kitten conspiracy. Kittens gonna be kittens. All is vain!
oh yeah, armor repairs are also a way to punish graveyard rushing. if you just graveyard rush through the entire dungeon, you’ll not only take like 20 times longer to beat the dungeon, but you’ll lose money instead of winning.
if you play effectively, you don’t die, don’t pay repair costs, finish the dungeon faster and profit.
Fair point, but I think there are other ways to avoid graveyard rushing. Things like boss lockouts, etc. I’m all for completing challenges “as intended” And I think there are a lot more you could do to curb this. When making this suggestion what I really had in mind was being able to get a group in there for some insanely crazy hard content, where frequent death is actually part of the learning experience. I don’t think that content exists today, but I want it to. I just see repair costs as a barrier to being able to add that content.
boss lockouts are a horrible idea. there is no time to rez a dead player during a fight, so if you make a mistake early on, you’re stuck dead the entire battle, watching your party take out the boss. it would just make things more frustrating.
keep in mind that your counters to graveyard rushing also affect people that die only once, by accident. you think that the group either wipes, or keeps cycling through the graveyard.
meanwhile armor repair costs ONLY punishes people that die too often, while letting someone who commited a mistake in battle to join (with a one minute delay) instead of sit tight and wait for 10 minutes.
as for group content where frequent death is part of the learning curve, all you’re doing is alienating and causing frustration. the tougher paths in dungeons are already full of people that ragequit halfway through.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
So then the content isn’t geared for people that think the repair cost is a barrier to playing the game?
I realize this is a fine line, perhaps a slippery slope. Are you really that invested in this subject, or more interested in winning a forum debate? I’m curious, is a suggestion with the hope of encouraging people experience more challenging content, and even with the hopes encouraging Anet to develop more difficult content that misplaced?
The problem is if you take out repairs graveyard zerging will get even worse. Atleast right now they will hit a point where they must stop the dungeon because there naked with no coin left.
I think Nurvus.2891 had some good suggestions in curbing graveyard zerging. And truth is, in the case of graveyard zerging, I would like to see a solution that completely prevents it rather than one that just deters it.
While i agree it would be nice if it was gone the one fundamental design about GW2 is its made so EVERYONE can complete everything. In cases graveyard zerging is what it will take for your very bottom of the player base to get threw it. But in truth graveyard zerging doesent affect you unless your running in a pug thats just plain horrible. From personal experience i’ve yet to have one of these groups. What sets people apart is there skill. Sure they may be able to do it but they wont finish it any where near as fast as you and you will come out ahead at the end of the dungeon.
So then the content isn’t geared for people that think the repair cost is a barrier to playing the game?
I realize this is a fine line, perhaps a slippery slope. Are you really that invested in this subject, or more interested in winning a forum debate? I’m curious, is a suggestion with the hope of encouraging people experience more challenging content, and even with the hopes encouraging Anet to develop more difficult content that misplaced?
The problem is if you take out repairs graveyard zerging will get even worse. Atleast right now they will hit a point where they must stop the dungeon because there naked with no coin left.
I think Nurvus.2891 had some good suggestions in curbing graveyard zerging. And truth is, in the case of graveyard zerging, I would like to see a solution that completely prevents it rather than one that just deters it.
While i agree it would be nice if it was gone the one fundamental design about GW2 is its made so EVERYONE can complete everything. In cases graveyard zerging is what it will take for your very bottom of the player base to get threw it. But in truth graveyard zerging doesent affect you unless your running in a pug thats just plain horrible. From personal experience i’ve yet to have one of these groups. What sets people apart is there skill. Sure they may be able to do it but they wont finish it any where near as fast as you and you will come out ahead at the end of the dungeon.
Yeah, and I really wasn’t trying to start any sort of heated debate. The truth is, in my mind, armor damage is a minor annoyance and for me personally, it isn’t a deterrent. But my mind got to turning and the thought popped in my head: “What REAL benefit do we get from having Armor Damage in the game and could removing it possibly improve the game?”
Which led me to the statement where Anet has said that explorables are geared to be challenging for pugs, and moderately difficult for organized groups. I would like to see them intoduce MUCH harder content. Stuff that you can’t PUG. (side note: not necessarily more personal rewards, but perhaps significant influence/guild rewards to encourage guilds to work at the content)
I was a big fan of Demon Souls. I think any real challenge will be preceded with lots and lots of failure. So I got to thinking, and formed the opinion that it would be more awesome to have super challenging content where dying was an expected part of the learning process both in learning nuances of your profession, and learning the challenge mechanics (I’m being generic as I believe the philosophy applies to more than dungeons) and remove or modify the armor repair mechanic, than set an expectation that all challenges are doable with moderate loss to gold via the repair mechanic.
I actually like that there have been so many comments on this. I personally think it’s an interesting thought to ponder.
TL;DR: Harder content with less failure penalty is better than easier content with acceptable failure penalty that can be mitigated.
So then the content isn’t geared for people that think the repair cost is a barrier to playing the game?
I realize this is a fine line, perhaps a slippery slope. Are you really that invested in this subject, or more interested in winning a forum debate? I’m curious, is a suggestion with the hope of encouraging people experience more challenging content, and even with the hopes encouraging Anet to develop more difficult content that misplaced?
The problem is if you take out repairs graveyard zerging will get even worse. Atleast right now they will hit a point where they must stop the dungeon because there naked with no coin left.
I think Nurvus.2891 had some good suggestions in curbing graveyard zerging. And truth is, in the case of graveyard zerging, I would like to see a solution that completely prevents it rather than one that just deters it.
While i agree it would be nice if it was gone the one fundamental design about GW2 is its made so EVERYONE can complete everything. In cases graveyard zerging is what it will take for your very bottom of the player base to get threw it. But in truth graveyard zerging doesent affect you unless your running in a pug thats just plain horrible. From personal experience i’ve yet to have one of these groups. What sets people apart is there skill. Sure they may be able to do it but they wont finish it any where near as fast as you and you will come out ahead at the end of the dungeon.
Yeah, and I really wasn’t trying to start any sort of heated debate. The truth is, in my mind, armor damage is a minor annoyance and for me personally, it isn’t a deterrent. But my mind got to turning and the thought popped in my head: “What REAL benefit do we get from having Armor Damage in the game and could removing it possibly improve the game?”
Which led me to the statement where Anet has said that explorables are geared to be challenging for pugs, and moderately difficult for organized groups. I would like to see them intoduce MUCH harder content. Stuff that you can’t PUG. (side note: not necessarily more personal rewards, but perhaps significant influence/guild rewards to encourage guilds to work at the content)
I was a big fan of Demon Souls. I think any real challenge will be preceded with lots and lots of failure. So I got to thinking, and formed the opinion that it would be more awesome to have super challenging content where dying was an expected part of the learning process both in learning nuances of your profession, and learning the challenge mechanics (I’m being generic as I believe the philosophy applies to more than dungeons) and remove or modify the armor repair mechanic, than set an expectation that all challenges are doable with moderate loss to gold via the repair mechanic.
I actually like that there have been so many comments on this. I personally think it’s an interesting thought to ponder.
TL;DR: Harder content with less failure penalty is better than easier content with acceptable failure penalty that can be mitigated.
The only think about “Harder content with less failure penalty” is it honestly is no different than “easier content with acceptable failure penalty”. If you make stuff harder but have no down side the people that are bad will still do it but just be furious with how its not fun. Yes i know im a major preacher of the then why do it saying and ill stick to it. But when it comes down to it the only fix would to be make it so hard theres 0 chance they could do it which goes against the design of ANet. They want EVERYONE to be able to complete the content should they want to. When it really does come down to it one of two things has to happen. ANet abandons there standards and turns this game into a wow clone and it flops like every other major game in the what past 5-7 years. Or they stick to there guns and make a game that actually makes it. Sure they would never have 10 mill players. But they would pribally hold strong in the 750000-1.5 mil range. Which is more than respectable. I personally would like harder dungeons. But im not willing for that at the risk of a wow clone. So what do i do i come up with ways to make the zones harder and more enjoyable for myself. Oh you need x classes with x spec. Ill throw that out the window and while were at it no waypoint useage. Oh and if you die stay dead or revive and stay at the start. Lets see just what we can do when we as a player base set the difficulty on our own. We dont need dev’s to make anything harder. The game is so flexible they gave us the means to do it our self. We just have to actually take the initiative to do it.
Demon’s Souls had three different penalties for failure. One was equipment repairs (which didn’t just result from death- it was just a thing that happened during combat and was by far the least punishing of the penalties), one was having a decreased health bar until you beat the next boss/used an expensive item (many players prefer playing like this however, especially during online play, so whether it’s actually a penalty is up to individual play-style, in addition to dying in body-form repeatedly progressively making the game harder where you died), and one was dropping all of your currency near the spot you died which would then disappear entirely if you failed to get it back before the next time you died (you were free to go to different areas and do anything you wanted as long as you didn’t die before getting back to it). The equivalent penalty in them both is equipment repairs but that was the least punishing thing that could happen in Demon’s Souls. The real killer was dropping all your currency and potentially losing it permanently if you weren’t careful getting back to it.
So I get where you’re coming from in wanting additional challenge mechanics because I love Demon’s Souls too. But half of what made Demon’s Souls challenging and satisfying was the potential punishment; the risk::reward factor. Honestly, Demon’s Souls didn’t have all that many mechanics at work the way an MMO does- even the hardest bosses were little more than straight brawls. Admittedly (speaking in terms of dungeons) with the armor/weapon sets being the only certain reward and there being no immediate gratification upon completing a dungeon of any reliable relevance GW2 isn’t up to par with that risk::reward setup. But taking out repair costs isn’t the way to go to get there. Increasing the immediate gratification somewhat would be much more effective and it could be done in any number of ways.
And the expectation isn’t that all challenges are doable if you’re willing to throw enough gold at it (would be kind of cool to have a ‘Throw [Money]’ command like some older single-player RPGs though, could fit right in with the Thieve’s Steal ability). The expectation is that anything can be done if one is willing learn the mechanics and skillfully out-maneuver them, thus incurring the minimum possible penalty and getting the biggest relative pay-out for doing so (less cost to get there = greater net reward). It matches up pretty well with the Demon’s Souls philosophy as-is. We’re just missing a fitting immediate reward for dungeon completion.
Now, if we go along a line of thought where level and stats are useless/nonexistent, therefor gear is 100% purely cosmetic, I would agree a repair cost would be nothing but detrimental to the gameplay.
(edited by Archmortal.1027)